23 replies to this topic

[Mind]

Vaccinated people are three times less likely to have COVID, so that means the vaccinated are three times less likely to pass COVID on to others.

 

Would it bother you if you caught COVID and passed it on, and it led to the death of others?  

 

This is an extremely dangerous and counterproductive talking point. Stop it.

 

By this logic, you are a murderer. Turn yourself in. Go to prison. Face execution? Everyone on this planet has caught and passed on viruses that have eventually went on to kill someone, multiple times throughout our lives. EVERYONE! Viruses are in the water, in the soil, in our food, in the air. Trillions of them everywhere.

 

Infectious respiratory viruses are particularly hard to stop, as evidenced by the current and past pandemics.

 

There is no guaranteed way to stop COVID.

 

Millions of vaccinated people are catching and spreading COVID as the evidence from multiple countries indicates. Are they all murderers? They should have known from the beginning of of the rollout of the experimental mRNA gene therapies that these would not stop infection or transmission (The FDA and the manufacturers clearly stated this and then the media "forgot" to mention it). Are all of these people murderers? By your logic, yes. Or at a minimum, negligent homicide. They have spread the virus to millions of more people around the world and caused untold numbers of deaths.

[Hip]

This is an extremely dangerous and counterproductive talking point. Stop it.
 
By this logic, you are a murderer. Turn yourself in. Go to prison. Face execution? Everyone on this planet has caught and passed on viruses that have eventually went on to kill someone, multiple times throughout our lives. EVERYONE! Viruses are in the water, in the soil, in our food, in the air. Trillions of them everywhere.

 

It is true that all human beings are spreading all sorts of viruses and bacteria to each other, many of which can cause (or are linked to) chronic diseases, cancers, and other nasty medical conditions.

 

For example, multiple sclerosis is strongly linked to Epstein-Barr virus (EBV), and EBV is usually picked up from kissing a girlfriend or boyfriend as a teenager or in your 20s, as EBV is spread by saliva. So your kisses as a teenager may be responsible for the horrible (and eventually fatal) disease of MS that may strike you in your 30s or 40s say.

 

 

But, at the moment, we do not have any vaccines to protect against many of these viruses, so nothing much any of us can reasonably do to prevent their transmission. We do yet have a vaccine for EBV. Whereas we do have vaccines to substantially reduce the person-to-person transmission the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus.

 

So where we can prevent the death of others (not to mention ourselves) by reasonable actions, like getting the COVID jab, it would be reasonable to take those actions.

 

 

 

In the future, once we develop more vaccine for the various other viruses linked to cancers and chronic diseases, these would best be mandated in the vaccine schedule, both to protect the individual from these diseases, and to try to prevent people from spreading these disease-causing viruses from one person to another.

 

 

In fact, because of the huge success of the mRNA vaccines, which are a marvel of modern medical technology, Moderna are already planning to create an EBV vaccine. If we can eradicate EBV from human populations, we will likely eradicate the disease MS, not to mention the cancers that EBV is known to cause. 

 

If you have EBV in your body — and 90% of the adult population do — then it is a ticking time bomb for cancer and MS. So eradication of EBV by vaccines will be a great step forward for humanity.

 

 

the rollout of the experimental mRNA gene therapies

 

mRNA does not alter your DNA. Study the science, and you will understand how mRNA works in the cell. Cells make constantly mRNA all the time. 

Edited by Hip, 24 October 2021 - 02:07 PM.

[geo12the]

This is an extremely dangerous and counterproductive talking point. Stop it.

 

By this logic, you are a murderer. Turn yourself in. Go to prison. Face execution? Everyone on this planet has caught and passed on viruses that have eventually went on to kill someone, multiple times throughout our lives. EVERYONE! Viruses are in the water, in the soil, in our food, in the air. Trillions of them everywhere.

 

Infectious respiratory viruses are particularly hard to stop, as evidenced by the current and past pandemics.

 

There is no guaranteed way to stop COVID.

 

Millions of vaccinated people are catching and spreading COVID as the evidence from multiple countries indicates. Are they all murderers? They should have known from the beginning of of the rollout of the experimental mRNA gene therapies that these would not stop infection or transmission (The FDA and the manufacturers clearly stated this and then the media "forgot" to mention it). Are all of these people murderers? By your logic, yes. Or at a minimum, negligent homicide. They have spread the virus to millions of more people around the world and caused untold numbers of deaths.

 

There is a guaranteed way to stop COVID. Vaccines. There are tons of high quality peer reviewed studies that show they greatly decrease sickness and death from COVID. But the deniers refuse to believe. They beleive their phony internet guru MDs. It's the deniers of vaccine efficacy who are "extremely dangerous and counterproductive"   

 

I will leave this meta analysis here though I doubt any of the deniers will read it (how is that for Genetic fallacy for you?) 

 

The abstract:

 

The current study systematically reviewed, summarized and meta-analyzed the clinical features of the vaccines in clinical trials to provide a better estimate of their efficacy, side effects and immunogenicity. All relevant publications were systematically searched and collected from major databases up to 12 March 2021. A total of 25 RCTs (123 datasets), 58,889 cases that received the COVID-19 vaccine and 46,638 controls who received placebo were included in the meta-analysis. In total, mRNA-based and adenovirus-vectored COVID-19 vaccines had 94.6% (95% CI 0.936–0.954) and 80.2% (95% CI 0.56–0.93) efficacy in phase II/III RCTs, respectively. Efficacy of the adenovirus-vectored vaccine after the first (97.6%; 95% CI 0.939–0.997) and second (98.2%; 95% CI 0.980–0.984) doses was the highest against receptor-binding domain (RBD) antigen after 3 weeks of injections. The mRNA-based vaccines had the highest level of side effects reported except for diarrhea and arthralgia. Aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines had the lowest systemic and local side effects between vaccines’ adjuvant or without adjuvant, except for injection site redness. The adenovirus-vectored and mRNA-based vaccines for COVID-19 showed the highest efficacy after first and second doses, respectively. The mRNA-based vaccines had higher side effects. Remarkably few experienced extreme adverse effects and all stimulated robust immune responses.

 

I can't fathom the alternate reality some folks here are living in. The truth is that scientific innovation defeated a deadly virus that was ravaging the human race.  The pandemic is coming to an end.  It's over. Thanks to the creativity and work of scientists. Thanks to vaccines. The deniers are on the wrong side of history. Carping because their favorite therapies fell by the wayside. Clinging to their pathetic guru quacks like desperate lost sheep.

[Hip]

 US studies were designed to fail

 

Those views from conspiracy theory websites are dangerous, because they actually are believed by the great unwashed, who have started sending death threats and online abuse to scientists performing studies which find negative results with drugs that the masses believe should work. 

[joesixpack]

Those views from conspiracy theory websites are dangerous, because they actually are believed by the great unwashed, who have started sending death threats and online abuse to scientists performing studies which find negative results with drugs that the masses believe should work. 

 

https://en.wikipedia..._Indian_Express

 

Is not a conspiracy theory website. I do wash occasionally. Trashing the sources of reported facts that are easily verified is a last ditch argument that generally fails. 

[geo12the]

 The failure of public heath officials to promote these practices erodes public trust. Why should we trust what we are told about vaccines from the people who would not even tell us about vitamin D, mouthwash, or nasal irrigation? I don’t understand why people see these matters as either/or propositions. Why not both/and? It has become clear that the vaccines are not enough. We need to also include other methods of prevention and early treatment.

 

A large segment of the population had a snit about masks, I don't see them embracing being told to use mouthwash but hey I could be wrong. 

[Hip]

A large segment of the population had a snit about masks, I don't see them embracing being told to use mouthwash but hey I could be wrong. 

 

The general pubic seem to want to rebel against anything these days. If you brought in compulsory gargling and nasal irrigation, there would be violent demonstrations on the streets opposing it. 

Edited by Hip, 25 October 2021 - 03:45 AM.

[Mind]

 

 

There is a guaranteed way to stop COVID. Vaccines. There are tons of high quality peer reviewed studies that show they greatly decrease sickness and death from COVID. But the deniers refuse to believe. They beleive their phony internet guru MDs. It's the deniers of vaccine efficacy who are "extremely dangerous and counterproductive"   

 

What planet do you live on? Seriously. The current "vaccines" do not stop transmission - at all - full stop. They do not stop people from getting ill. They do not stop people from being hospitalized. They are not guaranteed to stop people from dying.

 

Are you not keeping up on the current data and research?

 

Here is just one example out of hundreds of recent research papers and various country/state-level statistics.

 

One infected person spread COVID to vaccinated hospital personnel, family, and friends. Almost all vaccinated. 9 hospitalized. 5 dead. Eurosurveillance | Nosocomial outbreak caused by the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a highly vaccinated population, Israel, July 2021

[Hip]

What planet do you live on? Seriously. The current "vaccines" do not stop transmission - at all - full stop. They do not stop people from getting ill. They do not stop people from being hospitalized. They are not guaranteed to stop people from dying.

 

 

 It is important to be able to understand simple mathematical concepts like risk and probably when discussing these subjects.

 

The Pfizer vaccine reduces your chances of death and hospitalization by an astounding 25 times. That is absolutely remarkable, it is an enormous amount, and a total game changer.

 

 

You can still die if you have the vaccine, but your chances of dying are reduced by 25 times. Twenty five times!

 

You can still transmit the virus if you have the vaccine, but your chances of doing so are significantly reduced.

 

 

If you are having difficulty in understanding the concept of a 25 times reduction in death and hospitalization, maybe it might be due to dyscalculia? Some people do struggle with understanding numbers and mathematics.

Edited by Hip, 25 October 2021 - 04:04 PM.

[Mind]

Something that has developed during the COVID pandemic is calls for criminalizing personal medical choices that people make.

 

From masking, to lockdowns, to vaccines, to mRNA gene therapies, there are calls to arrest, fine, imprison, and execute people (yes, you can find these extreme positions on social media) who do not follow every mandate from various governments or controlling organizations.

 

This is a new development in medicine and health.

 

What is your reasoning for potentially imprisoning or executing people who do not want to follow every single mandate?

[geo12the]

What planet do you live on? Seriously. The current "vaccines" do not stop transmission - at all - full stop. They do not stop people from getting ill. They do not stop people from being hospitalized. They are not guaranteed to stop people from dying.

 

Are you not keeping up on the current data and research?

 

Here is just one example out of hundreds of recent research papers and various country/state-level statistics.

 

One infected person spread COVID to vaccinated hospital personnel, family, and friends. Almost all vaccinated. 9 hospitalized. 5 dead. Eurosurveillance | Nosocomial outbreak caused by the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a highly vaccinated population, Israel, July 2021

 

I am constantly posting information and links to publications that back up my points. I keep up on the current research, not what Tucker Carlson and the internet gurus say. We know the vaccines are not 100% effective. But here in my highly vaccinated state of CA cases are way down. No mater what you point to, the evidence shows they do work and they do keep people from getting sick and dying. You just seek out evidence to back up your anti-vax views and ignore all the data that show they work. You are not presenting an honest view of the facts of the situation. 

[Mind]

A good read on how people are being convinced/nudged to follow COVID rules, not matter how irrational.

 

https://unherd.com/2...ovid-despotism/

[Mind]

I am constantly posting information and links to publications that back up my points. I keep up on the current research, not what Tucker Carlson and the internet gurus say. We know the vaccines are not 100% effective. But here in my highly vaccinated state of CA cases are way down. No mater what you point to, the evidence shows they do work and they do keep people from getting sick and dying. You just seek out evidence to back up your anti-vax views and ignore all the data that show they work. You are not presenting an honest view of the facts of the situation. 

 

 

"We know that the vaccines are not 100% effective"

 

I am glad you now agree with me on this point...instead of saying "guaranteed to stop COVID".

 

The debate is about how effective they are.

 

From an ethical standpoint, if the disease was extremely deadly (near 100% mortality rate), and the mRNA gene therapies were 100% effective, then maybe you could make an ethical case for imprisoning and/or executing people who do not follow mandates.

[geo12the]

A good read on how people are being convinced/nudged to follow COVID rules, not matter how irrational.

 

https://unherd.com/2...ovid-despotism/

 

Fear mongering. The pandemic is coming to an end, thanks to vaccines. You will have to find something else to jump down a rabbit hole about.

[geo12the]

"We know that the vaccines are not 100% effective"

 

I am glad you now agree with me on this point...instead of saying "guaranteed to stop COVID".

 

The debate is about how effective they are.

 

From an ethical standpoint, if the disease was extremely deadly (near 100% mortality rate), and the mRNA gene therapies were 100% effective, then maybe you could make an ethical case for imprisoning and/or executing people who do not follow mandates.

 

 

No vaccines are 100% effective. The COVID vaccines are far more effective than people thought they would be. From an epidemiological point, they don't need to be 100% effective to stop the pandemic.

[geo12the]

Something that has developed during the COVID pandemic is calls for criminalizing personal medical choices that people make.

From masking, to lockdowns, to vaccines, to mRNA gene therapies, there are calls to arrest, fine, imprison, and execute people (yes, you can find these extreme positions on social media) who do not follow every mandate from various governments or controlling organizations.

This is a new development in medicine and health.

What is your reasoning for potentially imprisoning or executing people who do not want to follow every single mandate?

You are fear mongering. Look here are the facts: we have vaccines that are safe and highly effective against the pandemic. There are large clinical trials that back that up. You can listen to political pundits, the anti vaccines crowd and the internet gurus. But no mater how much they bend of backwards to miss represent stats that does not detract from the large body of evidence that the vaccines work. But for you and others here that does not matter. Because it’s become part of your tribal identity to be a part of the anti-vax anti-science team. Truth doesn’t matter to you. But your opinions are in the minority, thank God. Because the vaccines have saved a huge amount of lives. That you are unable or unwilling to admit that shows how deeply you need to cling to your fake narratives because you think anyone who doesn’t agree with you is the enemy. So you dig and look for pundits to reinforce your views. But no matter what the political hacks, the Tucker Carlsons of the world, the anti-vax pundits, the Mercola type gurus say the reality is that the vaccines have saved a ton of lives and a ton of misery. That is the truth.

[Hip]

Something that has developed during the COVID pandemic is calls for criminalizing personal medical choices that people make.

 

From masking, to lockdowns, to vaccines, to mRNA gene therapies, there are calls to arrest, fine, imprison, and execute people (yes, you can find these extreme positions on social media) who do not follow every mandate from various governments or controlling organizations.

 

This is a new development in medicine and health.

 

What is your reasoning for potentially imprisoning or executing people who do not want to follow every single mandate?

 

What is criminal here is the constant misrepresentation of the science and the facts. 

 

mRNA vaccines are not gene therapies, only someone who spends their life reading quack conspiracy theory websites would repeat that mantra of the scientifically uneducated. 

 

And for your information, mandated vaccines go back to 1853. Nothing new about legally coercing people to take a vaccine. 

 

 

 

I would be more interested in listening to your views, Mind, if you actually got the scientific facts right. 

Edited by Hip, 26 October 2021 - 01:28 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

The general pubic seem to want to rebel against anything these days. If you brought in compulsory gargling and nasal irrigation, there would be violent demonstrations on the streets opposing it. 

 

Has it occurred to you that forcing people to do things elicits that sort of response?  That having someone insist that you do something is a pretty sure way to insure that some people will not?

 

"My body, my choice" used to be a catechism of a certain segment of the political spectrum. That same group has turned that on it's head to "your body, my choice".

 

Honestly, the current vaccine mandates seem almost designed to force a segment of the population into rejecting the vaccine outright. If you wanted to achieve that end, I don't know what you would have done differently. 

 

I don't want to get covid. I got the vaccine. I'm pretty well protected. What you decide with respect to the vaccine is your decision. It is not for me to force it upon anyone.

 

It appears that some find the totalitarian impulse well nigh irresistible.

[Hip]

Has it occurred to you that forcing people to do things elicits that sort of response?  That having someone insist that you do something is a pretty sure way to insure that some people will not?

 

Civilized society is full of legal rules and duties we have to respect and follow. Governments and judges make laws, and we are obliged to follow them, or else face the consequences.

 

Most people would probably break many laws of the land if they were not enforced by the police and the law courts. So we cannot just ask people nicely to follow the rules; the rules have to be enforced. We could not function as a civilized society unless we enforced these laws. People would not pay their taxes, companies will not follow safety regulations when manufacturing products, murders would shoot up, theft and robbery would become ubiquitous, etc. 

 

One would have to be pretty naive to think that innate human goodness is sufficient to create model citizens who behave ethically. I am sure you don't think that. So why do you think it's a bad idea to enforce COVID restrictions and COVID requirements? 

Edited by Hip, 26 October 2021 - 07:45 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Civilized society is full of legal rules and duties we have to respect and follow. Governments and judges make laws, and we are obliged to follow them, or else face the consequences.

 

Most people would probably break many laws of the land if they were not enforced by the police and the law courts. So we cannot just ask people nicely to follow the rules; the rules have to be enforced. We could not function as a civilized society unless we enforced these laws. People would not pay their taxes, companies will not follow safety regulations when manufacturing products, murders would shoot up, theft and robbery would become ubiquitous, etc. 

 

One would have to be pretty naive to think that human goodness is sufficient to create model citizens who behave ethically.

 

Most rules are "negative rules". They specify that which you must not do. I'm not allowed to punch you in the face. I'm not allowed to murder you. I'm not allowed to take your possessions. 

 

What you propose is a "positive rule" - "You must put this vaccine in your body or else" just as a condition of continuing to live and earn a living. That's actually pretty rare/new with a few exceptions. We force children to be vaccinated because they aren't competent to make their own decisions. We force people in the military to be vaccinated because they surrender certain rights as a condition for joining their country's military.

 

Aside from a desire to force your opinion on your fellow man, I just don't understand the impulse. I presume you are vaccinated. You're pretty well protected. What business is it of yours that someone else is vaccinated?

 

Let me anticipate your response - "Well, if you get covid and are put in the hospital then that places burdens and costs on society at large". Indeed it does. But there is no limit on that argument. You have a BMI greater than 25? That also places a burden on the healthcare system. Do you drink alcohol? Do you smoke? Don't like to exercise? Do you engage in risky sexual behaviors? As you can see, there is no limit how you might intrude into your fellow man's life with this principle. But I suppose some might view that as a feature rather than a bug.

 

Like I said, the impulse to control other people's lives is nearly irresistible to a certain type of personality.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 26 October 2021 - 07:55 PM.

[Hip]

What you propose is a "positive rule" - "You must put this vaccine in your body or else" just as a condition of continuing to live and earn a living. That's actually pretty rare/new with a few exceptions.

 
I am not sure that such "positive rules" are as rare as you suggest.
 
If you want to drive a car, you must pass a driving test (positive action required).
 
If you want to ride a motorcycle, you must wear a helmet (positive action required).
 
If you want to become a doctor, you must study for a medical degree (positive action required).
 
There are many more examples of things that we are obliged to do before we can proceed on our desired course.

 

 

 

Aside from a desire to force your opinion on your fellow man, I just don't understand the impulse. I presume you are vaccinated. You're pretty well protected. What business is it of yours that someone else is vaccinated?

A pandemic is like a wartime situation. Civil liberties are rather different during wartime compared to peacetime. 

 

The general public seem rather uneducated regarding the history of war and peace when they think they can apply peacetime norms in a wartime-like situation as this. 

 

As you know, during the Vietnam era, there was forced conscription in the US, in the noble fight against communism. In wartime situations like Vietnam, you cannot say to people "hey, would you kindly like to volunteer for dangerous frontline soldier duty", because nearly everyone would refuse. In a war, we would like other people to fight for our liberty, and if necessary lay down their life for our liberty, but we would prefer not to have to fight ourselves. Most of us are selfish creatures like that. Thus there has to be enforced conscription during war, otherwise nobody would fight.

 

Similarly for the vaccination. Lots of people don't want to take the COVID vaccines because of some perceived risk. The studies indicate this risk is very small. But let's for the sake of argument assume that there was some significant risk with the vaccine. Then just as with fighting in a war, you might get people preferring others to take the risk of the vaccine, and not wanting to take the risk themselves. That's unfair. Why should some people take the burden of the risk for the benefit of others? So then the only way to make it fair is by enforcing the vaccine on everyone. 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 26 October 2021 - 08:48 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

I am not sure that such "positive rules" are as rare as you suggest.
 
If you want to drive a car, you must pass a driving test (positive action required).
 
If you want to ride a motorcycle, you must wear a helmet (positive action required).
 
If you want to become a doctor, you must study for a medical degree (positive action required).
 
There are many more examples of things that we are obliged to do before we can proceed on our desired course.

 
None of the things you cite here are fundamental human rights. You have no fundamental right to drive a car or motorcycle. You have no fundamental right to be a doctor. 
 
But the right to live and earn a living in general? Seems pretty fundamental to me.
 

A pandemic is like a wartime situation. Civil liberties are rather different during wartime compared to peacetime. 
 
The general public seem rather uneducated regarding the history of war and peace when they think they can apply peacetime norms in a wartime-like situation as this. 
 
As you know, during the Vietnam era, there was forced conscription in the US, in the noble fight against communism. In wartime situations like Vietnam, you cannot say to people "hey, would you kindly like to volunteer for dangerous frontline soldier duty", because nearly everyone would refuse. In a war, we would like other people to fight for our liberty, and if necessary to lay down their life for our liberty, but we would prefer not to have to fight ourselves. Most of us are selfish creatures like that. Thus there has to be enforced conscription during war, otherwise nobody would fight.
 
Similarly for the vaccination. Lots of people don't want to take the COVID vaccines because of some perceived risk. The studies indicate this risk is very small. But let's for the sake of argument assume that there was some significant risk with the vaccine. Then just as with fighting in a war, you might get people preferring others to take the risk of the vaccine, and not wanting to take the risk themselves. That's unfair. Why should some people take the burden of the risk for the benefit of others? So then the only way to make it fair is by enforcing the vaccine on everyone.

To those looking to assert control over their fellow man, some crisis worthy of drawing an analogy to war will always be close at hand.  A pandemic, climate change, the War on Drugs, etc. etc. There is never a shortage of excuses to limit freedom.
 
And just a fun historical fact on the US involvement in the Vietnam War - most (2/3rds) of those in the military were volunteers, not conscripts.
 

https://www.uswings....tnam-war-facts/

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 26 October 2021 - 09:18 PM.

[Hip]

None of the things you cite here are fundamental human rights. You have no fundamental right to drive a car or motorcycle. You have no fundamental right to be a doctor. 
 
But the right to live and earn a living in general? Seems pretty fundamental to me.

 

Vaccine passports are generally being used for access to nightclubs, restaurants, sporting events, etc. 

 

Going to a nightclub or a sporting event is not a fundamental human right, it is a luxury (that some cannot even afford).

 

Then you also get some companies requiring vaccine passports.

 

In the UK, those in the health service are now being told that if they want to keep their jobs, then need to get vaccinated. This is only fair, since you are supposed to be in health to look after patients. No healthcare worker worth their salt would be happy to risk killing their patients by COVID. What the hell are they even doing in health if they don't believe in vaccines?! So it's fair enough to mandate vaccination for healthcare workers.

 

Other companies may mandate vaccines because they want to protect their staff, which again is fair enough. I would not like to work with an unvaccinated person, who is 3 times more likely to have COVID than the vaccinated. I would hope my company would protect me by mandating vaccination. 

 

If you really don't want a vaccine, you will have to find a job in a company where vaccinations are not mandated.   

 

 

 

 

To those looking to asset control over their fellow man, some crisis worthy of drawing an analogy to war will always be close at hand.  A pandemic, climate change, the War on Drugs, etc. etc. There is never a shortage of excuses to limit freedom.

 

I was born in the 1960s, and I have never once witnessed any crisis in the UK where analogy to war was made. There have been plenty of crises in the UK since the end of the 2nd world war, but nobody ever said these crises were similar to a wartime situation, and nobody ever curtailed civil liberties.

 

So I think the fear that Western governments may use crises as excuses to limit freedom is unwarranted. This pandemic is just a temporary period, and normal liberties will be resumed as soon as it is over, just as you find when a war ends.

 

 

 

And just a fun historical fact on the US involvement in the Vietnam War - most (2/3rds) of those in the military were volunteers, not conscripts.
 
https://www.uswings....tnam-war-facts/

 

Very interesting. I wonder how many of those volunteers regretted their choice once they saw what war was really like? And I wonder if the volunteers were free to go home at any time, or were they forced into a tour of duty of a certain duration before they could quit and go home?

 

 

Edited by Hip, 26 October 2021 - 09:26 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

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Indiana Jones Jackets huh? Do you also sell whips? I think that would offer great protection from corona virus exposure: if anybody starts to get too close you just use the whip and away they go!