62 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

People say K2 keeps calcium from calcifying in the veins.  Will it unwind anything there already there, or just prevent new stuff from happening?

[TheFountain]

According to anecdotal data from a physician who was recently interviewed from one of the members of this forum, yes. 

[Kevnzworld]

There are many forms of K2.  ( Mk7 ).  Companies like Jarrow make a K complex for aterial calcification and bone density.   Life extension magazine has many articles on the subject 

[Mind]

The engineer mentioned above is Patrick Theut. He created a K supplement specifically for the purpose of reversing heart disease and decreasing calcification. He did reverse his heart disease. Back in the early 2000s he was told by a doctor that his heart disease was so bad that he only had months to live. He is fit and healthy today with less calcification - nearly 20 years later. He thinks K is the main reason for the improvement in his heart condition. However, he did create an extensive supplement regimen to go along with his K supplement and he adopted a better (mostly ketogenic) diet. He exercises a bit more as well. So there might be some confounding variables.

Edited by Mind, 10 December 2021 - 06:21 PM.

[TheFountain]

The engineer mentioned above is Patrick Thuet. He created a K supplement specifically for the purpose of reversing heart disease and decreasing calcification. He did reverse his heart disease. back in the early 2000s he was told by a doctor that his heart disease was so bad that he only had months to live. He is fit and healthy today with less calcification - nearly 20 years later. He thinks K is the main reason for the improvement in his heart condition. However, he did create an extensive supplement regimen to go along with his K supplement and he adopted a better (mostly ketogenic) diet. He exercises a bit more as well. So there might be some confounding variables.

 

And didn't he mention in your interview something to the effect of that his heart disease returned temporarily and he used K to reverse it again? Did I understand that correct?

[johnhemming]

K2 MK7 is good for taking calcium out of soft tissues (hence out of the arteries and maybe the pineal gland) K2 MK4 is best for putting calcium into bones and teeth although MK7 can do this as well.

 

You have to watch the effects of MK7 because it provides an extra electron transport for the mitochondria which gives you more energy, but that includes for your neurons at night which can make sleep harder.  That is probably why some cheese keeps people awake at night.

Edited by johnhemming, 09 December 2021 - 06:41 AM.

[Mind]

And didn't he mention in your interview something to the effect of that his heart disease returned temporarily and he used K to reverse it again? Did I understand that correct?

 

I am unsure. I might have to go back and listen.

[TheFountain]

I am unsure. I might have to go back and listen.

The other thing that astonished me that he said during that interview is that he takes 20 mgs of Melatonin nightly!!!!

[johnhemming]

The other thing that astonished me that he said during that interview is that he takes 20 mgs of Melatonin nightly!!!!

Is that because that is a low quantity or because it is a high quantity.

[TheFountain]

Is that because that is a low quantity or because it is a high quantity.

 

I'll put it to you this way, I take 1 mg of melatonin and I get a melatonin hangover. 

[johnhemming]

I'll put it to you this way, I take 1 mg of melatonin and I get a melatonin hangover. 

I would think you take it before you go to sleep.  There are receptors in the SCN that respond to serum levels of melatonin and it is my hypothesis that they switch off endogenous production at a threshold (which will vary from person to person and from time to time.)

 

I haven't taken it prior to sleeping for some years.  It was useless before going to sleep.

Edited by johnhemming, 27 December 2021 - 11:07 AM.

[TheFountain]

I would think you take it before you go to sleep.  There are receptors in the SCN that respond to serum levels of melatonin and it is my hypothesis that they switch off endogenous production at a threshold (which will vary from person to person and from time to time.)

 

I haven't taken it prior to sleeping for some years.  It was useless before going to sleep.

 

I wonder if the same receptors that make someone caffeine sensitive also make someone melatonin sensitive, or not. Might explain why someone can drink 8 Cups of coffee and sleep like a baby, whereas someone else drinks 2 sips and can't sleep for days. 

[Kentavr]

I take 6 mg of melatonin (2 times per week).

[johnhemming]

I wonder if the same receptors that make someone caffeine sensitive also make someone melatonin sensitive, or not. Might explain why someone can drink 8 Cups of coffee and sleep like a baby, whereas someone else drinks 2 sips and can't sleep for days. 

Not the same receptors.  There is a a known genetic variation on caffeine.  Try googling it.  If you don't find it post here and if I have the time i will have a go at refinding it. 

[johnhemming]

I take 6 mg of melatonin (2 times per week).

It is a circadian hormone hence the time you take it in the circadian cycle is really important.  How often a week pales into insignificance in comparison to that.

[TheFountain]

Not the same receptors.  There is a a known genetic variation on caffeine.  Try googling it.  If you don't find it post here and if I have the time i will have a go at refinding it. 

 

If not the same receptors I wonder if some sort of Enzymatic correlation exists. Melatonin effects glutathione peroxidase. Caffeine effects enzymes related to preventing Dementia.

 

My point is some people have more genetic sensitivities to stimulants than other's. 

 

I have always been caffeine sensitive. Which basically means I have more of the caffeine metabolizing enzyme than someone who can drink 8 cups a day, because more of it is hitting my blood brain barrier which means my brain is metabolizing it better than someone who doesn't feel the effects more strenuously.

 

This might be relatable to why some people can have 20 mgs of melatonin while other's are knocked out by 1 mg

 

Maybe I have more of the enzyme which receives the melatonin than someone who needs vastly more

Edited by TheFountain, 28 December 2021 - 11:12 AM.

[johnhemming]

When it comes to sleep Caffeine blocks the adenosine receptors.  That makes people feel less tired.  Melatonin works through enhancing GABA.  My own view on why different people are affected in different ways by Melatonin is that a lot is affected by when they take it.

 

I take a lot mainly for the effects other than sleep effects.

[Bike_to_120]

If not the same receptors I wonder if some sort of Enzymatic correlation exists. Melatonin effects glutathione peroxidase. Caffeine effects enzymes related to preventing Dementia.

 

My point is some people have more genetic sensitivities to stimulants than other's. 

 

I have always been caffeine sensitive. Which basically means I have more of the caffeine metabolizing enzyme than someone who can drink 8 cups a day, because more of it is hitting my blood brain barrier which means my brain is metabolizing it better than someone who doesn't feel the effects more strenuously.

 

This might be relatable to why some people can have 20 mgs of melatonin while other's are knocked out by 1 mg

 

Maybe I have more of the enzyme which receives the melatonin than someone who needs vastly more

 

I am definitely one of those people. A cup of coffee will keep me awake for 24 hours and gives me diarrhea.

1-10 mg of melatonin did nothing for me. I need at least 60 mg to have any effect
 

[Mind]

Does anyone else have any results from vitamin K supplementation? Such as - you had heart disease/calcification - then after supplementing with vitamin K - it was better.

[Phoebus]

 

 

So, here are my observations/actions and approximately the time I made them:

 2002 to 2005:

a.) Coronary Artery Disease (CAD) increases from the equator to the North, then drops off - - - I made this observation in early 2003 - - - it has to be Vitamin D related = = = I later discovered the Vitamin D web site which validated my observations.  Same goes for MS.

b.) Exercise boosts HDL - - - but to get a significant bump one needs to exercise to 90% of maximum heart rate for about an hour every three days.  This was later verified by Norwegian research.  Getting there was bizarre!  Think about it, pushing your heart to help your heart when you may blow out your heart.  Looking back, that took some real gonads.  Now I can keep my heart rate at 180 beats per minute for two hours.  Why is that significant?  Well, about a 20 point bump - my Mayo attending physician mentioned that for every thirty miles you run a week your HDL goes up 2 points.  I said to him, if you want me to get my HDL up 20 points I need to run 300 miles a week!  I thought that sounded excessive.  But, I took that observation and 'ran with it' and with all the testing I have completed, I did find out how to make that happen without needing that mileage.

c.) HDL and LDL last about three days in your system.  That is important to remember.

d.) Cheap carbs are bad and fat is good (figured this out in 2003).  Remember, there are only a few good fats or oils - - -   Coconut, Macadamia nut, Butter, Lard, Olive Oil, Fish Oil, Almond Oil.  

e.) Alcohol (a good scotch) is good for you, as it bumps your HDL.  Dose dependent to a point.  Two to four shots a day is a good range. 

f.) CAD follows bone formation kinetics - - - has to be vitamin D related in some way, shape, or form.   (Just try to get a D test in early 2003 - - - let alone purchase it- - - the physicians thought I was nuts).  Guess what, my vitamin D levels were low - go figure.

g.) CAD only happens typically after significant hormonal changes - - - ladies post-menopause and men who are reaching andropause.  So, hormones play a role - turns out most likely with regard to gut bacteria signaling (that's out of the box and not yet grasped by the medical community).

h.) CAD is stimulated by insulin - - -so cut out the cheap carbs - as they overstimulate your insulin levels.  High fat and high protein is the way to go.

i.) CAD is stimulated by the wrong oils.  So, Olive, Fish, Almond, Butter, & MacNut are good for you.  The rest will “kill”.  This has to do with the APO B-100 formation  - - - too much bad oil and one gets small dense LDLs (I call them golf balls) while what you want is beach balls (large and fluffy).  Note:  the only cholesterol test worth anything is one's particle size.

j.) Early in 2003 I stated that CAD appears to be a gut problem - - - at the time I did not really understand the significance of that statement.  It clearly relates to what is happening in your gut!  Validated years later.

k.) Thyroid matters.  Could talk about this for days, but suffice to say keep your Free T3 as high as possible (3.5 to 5.0) but not over 5.5 and drive your TSH to as low as possible.  Remember the USA TSH standards are way higher than Europe.

l.) Salt is good for you as it bumps up HDL.  It is only bad for you if you have kidney issues.  

m.) Four shots of “booze” is good for you if you keep your B vitamins up as this bumps up the HDL.

n.) Magnesium and Selenium are critical as this relates to good electrical signals, relaxed arteries (read as low Blood Pressure) and proper enzyme function.  Manganese is also important but you can get that by eating pineapple - - - don't take it as a supplement.

o.) The ratio of Copper to Zinc is equally critical - - - again they relate to enzymes and the "killing" of viruses and bacteria.  15 to 1.

p.) Fish oil matters, but only works if taken with milk (not kidding = = = research from Hungary) - - - taking fish oil typically drops your Tri-G by about 50% if taken with milk or a meal with fat in it.  If you take fish oil without milk or fat, it is not effective.  That was a fun experiment.  I did it over a week and to this day, I can "bounce" my TGs by just not taking my Fish Oil with a dietary fat.

q.) Get your body fat to below 15% if a male and 20% if female.  Having body fat at high levels is a bad actor as excess fat gives off really "bad stuff" within the rest of your body.  

r.) Teens don’t have CAD - - - very significant given the junk food ingested.  So, what's different?  (a question asked by process engineers all the time).  

s.) Infants have CAD until about when their hormonal systems kick in.  (I call that a real my my my).  

t.) Arteries are “insulted” by viruses, bacteria, chemicals, and just plain mechanics of motion.  If it moves it breaks - - - so the body repair crew needs to be on their game.  It is this same crew that in turn - - - turns on you.  So, keep the repair crew happy and "kill the invaders".  

u.) HDL over 60 is good, TGs under 60 is good, at the time LDL under 60 is good (later proven to be way wrong on the LDL).  Why?  Later in the story.

v.) CAD is a surface chemistry problem later figured out in 2011.  In this case the LDL and HDL carry vitamins K and CoQ10 and E.  D and A have their own carrier proteins - - - turns out this is critical (something the author figured out on his own).  

w.) Creed:  Slow it down, stop it, clean it out, and make sure it don’t come back.  In the case of CAD, there is no short-cut.  As near as I can tell, it takes about three years to get the system back on track.

x.) Learned how to heart rate train - - - which has to do with being a good athlete.  More about that at some later time.

y.) Keep your vitamin C, Lysine, and Citrulline high (Citrulline is a pituitary stimulator which is a good thing). 

 

The above are Patrick Theut's notes on CAD taken from here 

 

https://www.wausauwe...-koncentrated-k

[Phoebus]

By the way Vitamin K (mostly K2) also keeps you young looking. Elastin is the stuff that cause your skin to stretch, when it gets calcified you skin becomes saggy. K2 stops this calcification via MPG 

 

 

 

Proposed mechanism by which low vitamin K status leads to the acceleration of elastin degradation reflected by elevated plasma desmosine levels. Low vitamin K status will lead to impaired Matrix Gla Protein (MGP) activation and, subsequently, to an increased calcium content within elastin fibres. Elastin calcification causes elastin degradation. During the process of elastin degradation, desmosine is released from crosslinked elastin fibres and leaks from the extracellular matrix to the blood stream.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6724066/

[TheFountain]

When it comes to sleep Caffeine blocks the adenosine receptors.  

Yes and those who are more sensitive to it than other's have more genetically wide open receptor channels than those who can drink 10 cups a day and still sleep like a rock. 

[syr_]

You have to watch the effects of MK7 because it provides an extra electron transport for the mitochondria which gives you more energy, but that includes for your neurons at night which can make sleep harder.  That is probably why some cheese keeps people awake at night.

 

Now that you mention this, must be why they suggest to take mk7 in the morning. I've been always taking it at dinner, with no sleep issues, but i also take melatonin 1/2h before sleep which is wonderful.

AFAIK the main difference between mk4 and mk7 is the half life, with the latter being much longer, 2-3 days IIRC.

[syr_]

The above are Patrick Theut's notes on CAD taken from here 

 

https://www.wausauwe...-koncentrated-k

 

No mention about pomegranate. Strange, very strange. Maybe it wasn't studied back in 2003.

[ironfistx]

I have basically no caffeine tolerance. Half a cup and I'm going crazy... For about an hour.

My tolerance builds rapidly. A few days of coffee and I can drink a few cups and feel nothing.

I try to drink it sparingly.

[syr_]

Does anyone else have any results from vitamin K supplementation? Such as - you had heart disease/calcification - then after supplementing with vitamin K - it was better.

Not me, because I never checked for calcifications, but since I take a high D3 dosage (8000 IU daily), K2 was a must preventive measure. I'm still not sure exactly how much K2 I should take, since it is poorly studied. The newest advices are for over 200mcg, with a possible golden ratio together with vitamins A and D3.

I currently take 250mcg, thinking to go higher. After all, 35mg K1 are used in the japanese osteoporosis studies and it was totally safe.

[ta5]

After all, 35mg K1 are used in the japanese osteoporosis studies and it was totally safe.

 

Glakay is 15mg x 3/day (45mg total) of K2 MK4.

[syr_]

Glakay is 15mg x 3/day (45mg total) of K2 MK4.

Thank you, I remembered wrong. MK4 should have about 6h half life. This makes the margin even higher.

[CynthesisToday]

https://doi.org/10.3390/nu13020691 "The Medical Benefits of Vitamin K2 on Calcium-Related Disorders" (2021) The information regarding reversing calcification starts on p12 of 18.

[MidwestGreg]

Why the focus on taking a Vitamin K supplement when he states that he thinks it was the broccoli and sauerkraut that cleaned out his left main artery? Nutrients from real food is always preferable to supplements.

 

From the same link as above in post 20:  https://www.wausauwe...-koncentrated-k

 

"At this point I feel I turned the corner.  For instance, why did I clean my artery up?  Well, I believe I set my gut bacteria up to make the vitamin Ks that I needed.  How do I know?  Well, during this time I ate a lot of sauerkraut and broccoli, which were heaven to the 'critters' in my gut as they are high in vitamin K content.  By accident I was doing the right thing.  The vaccination had wiped out my 'gut buddies', the bacteria in my gut that were healthy and making or extracting K (this has later proven to be true in the latest research).  Hence, my vitamin K production went away as a result of that vaccination.  Look at my blood work and you will see what I am talking about. "

 

 

 

 

In any event, it appears that adding broccoli and sauerkraut to your daily diet might be useful. 

Edited by MidwestGreg, 31 January 2022 - 01:48 PM.