63 replies to this topic

[syr_]

Why the focus on taking a Vitamin K supplement when he states that he thinks it was the broccoli and sauerkraut that cleaned out his left main artery?

Who cares what "he" thinks?

There are studies on the effect of K2 on atherosclerosis.

[TheFountain]

Why the focus on taking a Vitamin K supplement when he states that he thinks it was the broccoli and sauerkraut that cleaned out his left main artery? Nutrients from real food is always preferable to supplements.

But, didn't "he" release his own Vitamin K supplement which "he" takes daily now?

[Mind]

But, didn't "he" release his own Vitamin K supplement which "he" takes daily now?

 

 

The last time I met him a few months ago, I was pretty certain he said he was still taking K on a daily basis.

[pamojja]

The long past sauerkraut experience only pointed out to him, that his vitamin K producing gut-bacteria were missing. Only much later he substituted the missing K vitamins at 20500mcg per capsule twice a day with his own product (since nothing like that was available).

 

Here the complete long story, where the past experience with sauerkraut only played a role in finding what really was missing - beside numerous other things: https://www.k-vitami...-view-all&id=18

[johnhemming]

The long past sauerkraut experience only pointed out to him, that his vitamin K producing gut-bacteria were missing. Only much later he substituted the missing K vitamins at 20500mcg per capsule twice a day with his own product (since nothing like that was available).

 

Here the complete long story, where the past experience with sauerkraut only played a role in finding what really was missing - beside numerous other things: https://www.k-vitami...-view-all&id=18

 

Vitamin K2 can be created by the gut biome, but I take a view it is more reliable to supplement as you have a better idea as to dosage.  I also think that 15,000 IU of D3 is unhelpful.  Although i would not say D3 at a high level is toxic, I would say it can be unhelpful as it takes a while for the body to convert it to 25OHD.  My own tests lead me to conclude that 6,000iu is unhelpful so I take 3,000iu every day.  I think it is a mistake to take large doses of D3 on a bolus basis.  There was a study in Australia that concluded D3 was not helpful. I think they had that result because they used a monthly dose rather than spreading it out over the month.

[pamojja]

..can be unhelpful as it takes a while for the body to convert it to 25OHD.  My own tests lead me to conclude that 6,000iu is unhelpful so I take 3,000iu every day.

 

Many things take time, and under certain circumstances might be differetly beneficial.

 

For example I started comprehensive suplementation (incl. lifestyle changes) because of a walking-disability due to a stenosis at my abdominal aorta (PAD) 13 years ago. About 8800 IU of vitamin D3 aditional to maximized sun-exposure kept my 25(OH)D at in average 70 ng/ml all those years.

 

Still took 7 year incl. setbacks, for experiencing remission from the walking-disability.
 

[FrankEd]

Due to CVD, I´m on strong anti coagulants medicines like aspirin and clopidogrel. I ask my doc to take K2 and he said that it could lead to blood clots. Is that really true?

[johnhemming]

I think K2 will have a similar effect to K1 when it comes to coagulation.  Hence I would suggest being very careful if you are on anything blood thinning.  The real problem is that things like MK7 can clear up the vascular system, but can also create clots.

[pamojja]

The real problem is that things like MK7 can clear up the vascular system, but can also create clots.

 

Not really: https://www.k-vitami...-view-all&id=16

 

Real caution is needed, with regular adjustment in dose of the anti-coagulent warfarin, since it directly works as an vitamin K antitode. But everyone has anyway to make a careful risks/benefits anaylsis for taking that ratpoison.

[Phoebus]

I think Vit D dosage is very much dependent on your Vit D plasma levels. Low plasma levels means you need a high dose, medium levels medium dose, high levels low dose, etc 

 

someone with D levels under 20 could likely take 10 k iu D a day, however, If you are at 70 or above that dose is almost certainly way too high. The emphasis needs to be on plasma levels, not dose, to start out with. 

[Phoebus]

Due to CVD, I´m on strong anti coagulants medicines like aspirin and clopidogrel. I ask my doc to take K2 and he said that it could lead to blood clots. Is that really true?

 

Not a problem according to this study 

 

https://academic.oup..._2/1843/5845697

 

Vitamin K2 Supplementation Does Not Affect Vitamin K-Dependent Coagulation Factors Activity in Healthy Subjects: A Pilot Study

[johnhemming]

Not a problem according to this study 

 

https://academic.oup..._2/1843/5845697

 

Vitamin K2 Supplementation Does Not Affect Vitamin K-Dependent Coagulation Factors Activity in Healthy Subjects: A Pilot Study

 

If there are enough solid studies saying K2 has no impact on coagulation perhaps the name should be changed.

[pamojja]

If there are enough solid studies saying K2 has no impact on coagulation perhaps the name should be changed.

 

Not at all:

 

 

Vitamin K does not initiate the formation of a blood clot, nor does it resolve or dissolve a clot.    However, vitamin K does improve the functioning of both these systems.

 

See references of above linked article by Pat.
 

[johnhemming]

Not at all:

 

 

See references of above linked article by Pat.
 

 

Sorry I am confused by this.   Vitamin K is called Vitamin K because of its involvement in Coagulation (German Spelling).

 

I have not checked this, but I think it is understood that K1 is involved in blood clotting.

 

There is an argument from the article that K2 is not involved in blood clotting.   That being the case it should not really be called Vitamin K.

 

What are you saying?

[pamojja]

What are you saying?

 

What I'm saying: vitamin K is involved in coagulation, but by itself not in over- or undercoagualation. Except when in lack.
 

Your assumption is understandably that of the pharmaceutical model: When an agent does lead to coagulation, then more of it should overcoagulate. Its much more complicated, and often, as in this case, doesn't apply to vitamins.

 

 

There is an argument from the article that K2 is not involved in blood clotting.

 

Where? Could you please quote?

Edited by pamojja, 09 February 2022 - 01:16 PM.

[johnhemming]

What I'm saying: vitamin K is involved in coagulation, but by itself not in over- or undercoagualation. Except when in lack.
 

Your assumption is understandably that of the pharmaceutical model: When an agent does lead to coagulation, then more of it should overcoagulate. Its much more complicated, and often, as in this case, doesn't apply to vitamins.

 

 

Where? Could you please quote?

 

Its in the title: Vitamin K2 Supplementation Does Not Affect Vitamin K-Dependent Coagulation Factors Activity in Healthy Subjects: A Pilot Study

[pamojja]

So you're talking about Phoebus study. Then why you adressing me with your posts? Have you never read a study and found the title isn't supported by the data collected? Not actually reading a study and feel entitled to discuss any is simply ignorant.

 

I only argued with the many references of this article:

 

 

https://www.k-vitami...-view-all&id=16

 

If you want to doubt you have to read the article and their scientific studies to verify. By only reading the titles of studies you'll be forever be misguided.

 

[johnhemming]

So you're talking about Phoebus study. Then why you adressing me with your posts? Have you never read a study and found the title isn't supported by the data collected? Not actually reading a study and feel entitled to discuss any is simply ignorant.

 

I only argued with the many references of this article:

 

 

If you want to doubt you have to read the article and their scientific studies to verify. By only reading the titles of studies you'll be forever be misguided.

 

 

You disagreed with my suggestion that the Menaquinones should not be called Vitamin K2, but instead some other Vitamin.  My reasoning is that if they do not have any effect on coagulation then they should not be called coagulation vitamins.

 

Phylloquinone does affect coagulation so that is correctly called Vitamin K1.

 

 

From the Study

 

Results

PT, APTT, TT, and FIB did not show significant difference at day 30 when compared with baseline. The activities of coagulation factors II, VII, IX, and X was not significantly different with baseline (97.28 ± 12.42% vs. 99.96 ± 10.24%, P = 0.24 for F II: C; 76.12 ± 15.82% vs. 76.40 ± 12.33%, P = 0.92 for FⅦ: C; 97.65 ± 13.98% vs. 99.65 ± 13.30%, P = 0.47 for FⅨ: C; 89.18 ± 10.76% vs. 92.01 ± 10.46%, P = 0.1 for FⅩ: C) . PIVKA-II levels were not changed with 30 days vitamin K2 supplementation (21.62 ± 3.21 vs. 23.87 ± 2.65 mAU/ml, P = 0.16). After 30 days vitamin K2 administration, factor II, Ⅶ, Ⅸ, and Ⅹ activity of plasma diluted up to 10 times were proportionally decreased, and did not show significant difference with the healthy control without vitamin K2 exposure (10.32 ± 1.24% vs. 10.97 ± 1.55%, P = 0.38 for F II: C; 9.52 ± 2.94% vs. 9.14 ± 1.79%, P = 0.68 for FⅦ: C; 11.78 ± 2.12% vs.11.65 ± 1.54%, P = 0.87 for FⅨ: C; 8.22 ± 1.28% vs. 8.92 ± 1.13%, P = 0.21 for FⅩ: C).

[pamojja]

You disagreed with my suggestion that the Menaquinones should not be called Vitamin K2, but instead some other Vitamin.  My reasoning is that if they do not have any effect on coagulation then they should not be called coagulation vitamins.

 

Phylloquinone does affect coagulation so that is correctly called Vitamin K1.

 

Holy moses, there are tons of scientific papers which support vitamin Ks do affect coagulation. It would take your years to read them all.

 

I only argued that despite its influence on coagulation, it doesn't cause unhealty over- or under-coagulation. As shown also in above study.

 

If you want to support that it does in itself also cause over- or untercoagulation, you should bring up evidence for that, any study we can discuss, not merely everyday assumptions or studies which aren't in your support.

 

But please no study confounded by other determinants, like warfarin.

 

You also have the choice to continue to ignore all the evidence and bring none of you own, that vitamin K is indeed be non-essential for coagulation. Like you did until now repeatedly. But then there is nothing further to reasonably discuss.

 

Edited by pamojja, 09 February 2022 - 02:00 PM.

[johnhemming]

Holy moses, there are tons of scientific papers which support vitamin Ks do affect coagulation. It would take your years to read them all.

 

 

The debate is about the distinction between Philloquinone and the Menaquinones let alone the individual Menaquinones.

 

You don't seem to be making that distinction.

[CynthesisToday]

"does k2 reverse calcification or prevent it?"

 

There are several factors that contribute to cardiovascular calcification. K2 is a co-factor required (but not sufficient) to activate one of the factors: phosphorylation and carboxylation of circulating Matrix GLA Protein (MGP). Activated MGP prevents one mechanism for vascular calcification.

 

doi:10.1111/j.1440-1797.2006.00660.x"Molecular mechanisms mediating vascular calcification: Role of matrix Gla protein" (2006)  "MGP has been confirmed as a calcification-inhibitor in numerous studies; however, its mechanism of action is not completely understood. It potentially acts in several ways to regulate calcium deposition including: (i) binding calcium ions and crystals; (ii) antagonizing bone morphogenetic protein and altering cell differentiation; (iii) binding to extracellular matrix components; and (iv) regulating apoptosis. Its expression is regulated by several factors including retinoic acid, vitamin D and extracellular calcium ions, and a reduced form of vitamin K (KH2) is important in maintaining MGP in an active form."

 

http://dx.doi.org/10.3390/ijms20030628 "Association of the Inactive Circulating Matrix Gla Protein with Vitamin K Intake, Calcification, Mortality, and Cardiovascular Disease: A Review " (2019)

 

There are some observational studies as well as clinical trials that show a correlation between supplemental K2 and reduced arterial stiffness and/or calcification.

http://dx.doi.org/10... "Menaquinone-7supplementation improves arterial stiffness in healthy postmenopausal women: double-blind randomised clinical trial" (2014)

doi: 10.15761/VDT.1000179 "Effect of Menaquinone-7 (vitamin K2) on vascular elasticity in healthy subjects: results from a one-year study" (2020) (Funded by NattoPharma company, supplier of MenaQ7)

doi:10.1016/j.atherosclerosis.2008.07.010 "High dietary menaquinone intake is associated with reduced coronary calcification" (2009) 

 

There are also those who pull back from complete acknowledgement of K2 in calcification.

 

doi:10.3390/nu12102909 "Vitamin K Supplementation for the Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease: Where Is the Evidence? A Systematic Review of Controlled Trials" (2020)

 

Without going in to more (off-topic) specifics, zinc, magnesium, phosphate:calcium ratio, and inflammation also have mechanisms that contribute to vascular calcification. I suppose the ultimate answer to "does k2 reverse calcification or prevent it?" will be: "depends on the cause".

[johnhemming]

On a purely personal basis (n of 1) I am scheduling a calcium score to see what my current position is on this.  I have been running a K2 protocol for some time, but sadly don't have  a proper base measurement on this.

[fauxstradamus]

Does anyone else have any results from vitamin K supplementation? Such as - you had heart disease/calcification - then after supplementing with vitamin K - it was better.

 

I've taken K2-MK4 and MK7 every day for years and I still have progressing carotid intima media thickness and now, with my most recent CIMT, plaque in part of my carotid . . . but ZERO calcium on a coronary calcium scan.  So my unscientific take on this is that K2 can help keep calcium out of your heart and coronary arteries but that alone is not enough to stop or reverse atherosclerosis.  So taking various forms of K2 may be important, especially if you are taking supplemental D3, to keep the calcium in your bones where it belongs, but it is not enough, at least for some people.  Now I'm trying a new K2 supplement from LE with a few more forms of K2, as well as MK4 and MK7.   I don't know if there is any data out there anywhere to show that this could make any meaninful difference with respect to CVD.  I'm hoping that the cyclodextrin approach (as tried by at least one poster on this forum) proves to be safe and effective in this regard.  In the meantime, I take rapamycin and various flavenoids and polyphenol supplements to hopefully stem the advance long enough to give me a chance to reverse the process down the road before it's too late.

[Mind]

I've taken K2-MK4 and MK7 every day for years and I still have progressing carotid intima media thickness and now, with my most recent CIMT, plaque in part of my carotid . . . but ZERO calcium on a coronary calcium scan.  So my unscientific take on this is that K2 can help keep calcium out of your heart and coronary arteries but that alone is not enough to stop or reverse atherosclerosis.  So taking various forms of K2 may be important, especially if you are taking supplemental D3, to keep the calcium in your bones where it belongs, but it is not enough, at least for some people.  Now I'm trying a new K2 supplement from LE with a few more forms of K2, as well as MK4 and MK7.   I don't know if there is any data out there anywhere to show that this could make any meaninful difference with respect to CVD.  I'm hoping that the cyclodextrin approach (as tried by at least one poster on this forum) proves to be safe and effective in this regard.  In the meantime, I take rapamycin and various flavenoids and polyphenol supplements to hopefully stem the advance long enough to give me a chance to reverse the process down the road before it's too late.

 

Do you think your age or something in your diet is causing the plaque in part of your carotoid?

[johnhemming]

There is an interesting question as to where the renewal of cells is proceeding properly.  We are now aware that Osteoporosis occurs driven by the trapping of Acetyl-CoA in the mitochondria.  I have just read a paper which would to me imply the same problems exist for Sarcopenia.  It is possible that similar failure to renew properly issues happen in other parts of the body - including the vascular system.

 

I did a body composition test on Tuesday.  I don't have the figures to hand, but the doctor indicated that I had a higher muscle mass than the average 61 year old. I don't do a lot of exercise, but I do walk around quickly (sufficiently quickly to get me almost out of breath) - hence I don't think it arises from any body building efforts.  I am of the view that my protocol is helping with bone composition and muscle mass.  My guess is that it is mitochondrial Melatonin supplementation specifically although I do a lot of other things as well.  I started with Melatonin and that seemed to help with the differentiation of certain hair stem cells - not a lot of them, but enough to notice.

 

Obviously the difficulty for any intervention is linking any changes (which with the differentiation of stem cells will be quite slow over an extended period of time) with the intervention.

 

The differentiation of a stem cell is likely to require a supply of Acetyl-CoA.

 

 

Later Edit:

This makes me think the Plaque has a stem cell differentation cause behind it.

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/26288013/

 

It would be interesting to know the number of diseases of ageing that are caused by the failure of stem cells to differentiate properly.

 

At the moment the list I have

Osteoporosis

Sarcopenia

atherosclerotic vulnerable plaque

Edited by johnhemming, 10 February 2022 - 07:03 AM.

[pamojja]

I've taken K2-MK4 and MK7 every day for years and I still have progressing carotid intima media thickness and now, with my most recent CIMT, plaque in part of my carotid . . . but ZERO calcium on a coronary calcium scan.  So my unscientific take on this is that K2 can help keep calcium out of your heart and coronary arteries but that alone is not enough to stop or reverse atherosclerosis.

How many years?

In my case had about 20 mg/d of K-vitamins for 13 years. As already written experienced remission of a walking-disabiltity (abdominal stenosis) in year 7 only. For the 3rd year I also suffered the whole year a chronic bronchitis with very high inflammation. After that my max. CIMT increased even to its highest meassure. From 1.3 to 1.9mm. Only in year 10 it came down to 1mm (<0.9 would be normal).

 

Therefore in my case very high inflammation had a huge influence on CIMT.
 

[Phoebus]

How many years?

In my case had about 20 mg/d of K-vitamins for 13 years. As already written experienced remission of a walking-disabiltity (abdominal stenosis) in year 7 only. For the 3rd year I also suffered the whole year a chronic bronchitis with very high inflammation. After that my max. CIMT increased even to its highest meassure. From 1.3 to 1.9mm. Only in year 10 it came down to 1mm (<0.9 would be normal).

 

Therefore in my case very high inflammation had a huge influence on CIMT.
 

 

 were you taking K1, MK4 and MK7? AT what dosages? 

[pamojja]

About 5mg K1, 15mg K2-mk4, 0,5mg K2-mk7 in average per day.

[syr_]

About 8800 IU of vitamin D3 aditional to maximized sun-exposure kept my 25(OH)D at in average 70 ng/ml all those years.

You are taking a dose similar to mine, I'm at 8400IU after over a year of adjustments, and my goal is to keep 25OH 70 to 80ng. I'm checking blood every 3 months, with generous doses of K2 and A to keep the balance and avoid any risks.

I thought to be a non-absorber, but it seems that blood levels correlate more directly with the daily dose than I believed.

 

Now I'm trying a new K2 supplement from LE with a few more forms of K2, as well as MK4 and MK7.

I think it's a good formula. I just ordered that too, which I'll integrate with some MK7, instead of taking mk7 only (currently 400mcg).

[syr_]

About 5mg K1, 15mg K2-mk4, 0,5mg K2-mk7 in average per day.

LEF Super K is dosed much less at K1 1,5mg, MK4 1mg and MK7 0,1mg. Since mk7 is the only form with an half life of a few days they went very conservative with it.