9 replies to this topic

[ailsworb]

Made this thread a few years ago.

 

While the crippling fatigue and mental difficulties that resulted from supplementation have slightly improved, I'm still struggling badly. Had follow-up bloodwork done recently and my P5P came back at 3.6 ng/mL (ref. 2.1 - 21.7). Somehow, I'm still suffering the effects of supplemental B6 while testing reveals borderline deficiency? Nothing else came up.

 

The wikipedia page on B6 toxicity hints at the possibility of a substance dependency with a high supplemental intake. Would it theoretically be possible for a withdrawal effect to last for years, even after excess has been successfully cleared out? And what could you even do about it? Nothing?

 

It's completely unheard of. From what I can find, nobody has ever experienced this specific reaction to B6. Plenty of people reporting nerve pain, but never fatigue alone.

[johnhemming]

The inactive form inhibits the active form.  Hence as you build up pyridoxine in your blood at a point it starts causing the symptoms of deficiency.   That happened with me at 100mg per day, but can happen at 50mg.  Best to switch to the active form Pyridoxal-5-phosphate (P5P) .  Its a bit more expensive, but does not have that problem.

 

I don't know what the dosage limits are, however.

[ailsworb]

The inactive form inhibits the active form.

 

Everyone says this, but I tried P5P on several occasions and it only made me feel worse immediately. 50mg. Too scared to go anywhere near it again.

 

Apparently P5P is dephosphorylated into pyridoxal during absorption. And to top it off, all B6 vitamers are neurotoxic anyway.

 

The standard measurement of B6 is P5P in plasma, so I couldn't test for unmetabolized pyridoxine. And even if it came back high, what could you even do about it?

[johnhemming]

I don't know the answer to this.   I know there is a complex interplay between the B Vitamins and I supplement with all of them.

[pamojja]

And to top it off, all B6 vitamers are neurotoxic anyway.

 

I don't think one can conclude that from this in-vitro study:

 

 

Pyridoxamine 5-phosphate, which cannot enter cells, also was nontoxic.

How on earth do you translate this into all into 'all B6 vitamers are neurotoxic anyway.'?

 

 

That happened with me at 100mg per day, but can happen at 50mg

 

After many years of taking P5P up to 100mg without problem 1-2 years ago P5P was limited to 25mg for a daily dose, so also in all LEF's supplements for the EU market. Therefore I increase pyridoxine from never higher than 80 mg/d to 120 mg/d - and that's my limit where neuropathic tingling started (though sort of funny, in my left arm only).

 

Indeed I know of other members of the PhoenixRising forum which can't tolerate any amount of pyridoxine, but truely mega-doses of P5P.

 

My neuropathy took about a year to cease, by decreasing pyridoxine as much as possible, and increasing P5P to 160 mg/d, now for 2 years I'm fine at such doses of P5P.

 

Only tested whole blood Vitamin B6 twice, normal range given was 16.8-45 µg/L, came back ~180 in 2012, and ,~140 2015.

 

 

..it only made me feel worse immediately. 50mg.

 

Try much less than that first, and increase only slowly. Of course including all co-factor nutrients.

 

 

[johnhemming]

thank you for the helpful vitamin B chart.

 

I wonder what is available on quantifying the issues with the various vitamin Bs

[Shound]

thank you for the helpful vitamin B chart.

 

I wonder what is available on quantifying the issues with the various vitamin Bs

There are 13 vitamin activities that have been identified, including the 9 water-soluble vitamins B-1 (thiamine), B-2 (riboflavin), B-3 (niacin), B-5 (pantothenic acid), B-6 (pyridoxine), B-7 (biotin), B-9 (folate), B-12 (cobalamin), and C (ascorbic acid)1. Symptoms of a vitamin B deficiency vary depending on which B vitamin you’re deficient in, and may include fatigue, skin rash, or confusion2. If you suspect a vitamin B deficiency, speak to your doctor about getting tested.

papa's burgeria

[pamojja]

There are 13 vitamin activities that have been identified, including .. confusion2.

 

Copy and pasted, without real personal experience with b vitamins?

 

An very important is choline too, also inositol and paba might help in certain conditions.

 

Above was mentioned that often what is tested in blood-tests are non-metabolized forms of the B-vitamins. Means you can show much too high levels in blood, but still be deficient in cells, since they aren't metabolized properly. Only when blood-test show deficiency then there might be truth to it, too high could just as well mean deficient.

Edited by pamojja, 04 July 2023 - 11:14 AM.

[ironfistx]

B vitamins result in me feeling horrible and having powerful OCD.  I haven't taken them in a long time and always feel worse when taking them.  Methylated, standard, doesn't make a difference.  Even a small amount now, like opening the pill and taking maybe 1/20 of its contents does this.  Blood tests for b12 are normal.  Blood tests for thiamine are high/normal (I was taking thiamine alone for a while but it didn't cause the terrible experience).

 

Niacin alone doesn't make me feel bad.  So it's not the thiamine or the niacin.  To be honest, I started having weird health issues years ago when using P5P.  And to be fair, I commonly feel better when not taking any vitamins at all.

 

Met B12 makes me feel terrible.

 

Regular B12 makes me feel ok but if I keep taking it I feel terrible.

Edited by ironfistx, 05 July 2023 - 09:23 PM.

[kurdishfella]

can you get that from a vitamin?