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[Michael Lustgarten]

https://www.youtube....h?v=DHGyBOzcsfk

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[albedo]

Hi Michael! Very informative, thank you.

Hormones tracking and interpretation (mostly DHEA) was and still is the most challenging to me.

Now, I understand your dietary approach is counter to drug-based which I fully understand but have you considered physiological supplementation with DHEA (typically 25 mg/d) as you have now with Quantify a quick way to test whether or not you mess up with other things. It is the same problem and decision I must take as my level of DHEA-S are astronomically lower (last point at 19.2 mcg/dl or 0.5 mcmol/l  !!). Btw, in case use a good formulation from a good brand as sometimes you get nothing in the bottle.

There is also the idea to use keto-DHEA which is supposed to impact metabolism (if needed, you might not) but avoids hormonal path conversions you do not want (e.g. for men I would check E2 (estradiol, main estrogen) and DHT (dihydrotestosterone) for our prostate health and BPH (benign prostate hyperplasia) the latter increasing w/ age)

Consider DHEA supplementation seems decreasing in benefit with age (here) and jury is not out yet (here) and maybe will never be - which is the real incentive to carry our good studies?

So I fully understand your non-drug based approach but I must say I really dislike to see on me such a low value of this steroid. I must say though other hormones are pretty normal but here I could so far never really close on the complex issue of the "normal" vs "optimal". I try to rather look at hormone axis and ratios (say DHEA-S/Cortisol - can modulate stress and immunity, Testosterone/Estrogen, E2/free testosterone, ....)

Definitively I think hormones modulation warrants NOT a do-it-yourself approach.

There is a huge literature if you really want to go deep, one is "DHEA in Human Health and Aging" ed R Watson here (not fully read though)

Please let us know what you discover more in this area!

BTW, you mention in your video Levine's "PhenoAge": is that her "Phenotypic Age" number you track for biological age BA or her "PhenoAge" which makes use of DNA methylation data? I might have missed you might also made a DNAm test for BA though ...

[albedo]

I am also fascinated by your approach to drive DHEA-S, rightly acting on TC due the the cholesterol metabolic cascading, while typically I tend to lower it (201 mg/dl, ref 0-251, average over 23 years: 227) ... i am not happy w my TC level!

[Michael Lustgarten]

Hi Michael! Very informative, thank you.

Hormones tracking and interpretation (mostly DHEA) was and still is the most challenging to me.

Now, I understand your dietary approach is counter to drug-based which I fully understand but have you considered physiological supplementation with DHEA (typically 25 mg/d) as you have now with Quantify a quick way to test whether or not you mess up with other things. It is the same problem and decision I must take as my level of DHEA-S are astronomically lower (last point at 19.2 mcg/dl or 0.5 mcmol/l  !!). Btw, in case use a good formulation from a good brand as sometimes you get nothing in the bottle.

There is also the idea to use keto-DHEA which is supposed to impact metabolism (if needed, you might not) but avoids hormonal path conversions you do not want (e.g. for men I would check E2 (estradiol, main estrogen) and DHT (dihydrotestosterone) for our prostate health and BPH (benign prostate hyperplasia) the latter increasing w/ age)

Consider DHEA supplementation seems decreasing in benefit with age (here) and jury is not out yet (here) and maybe will never be - which is the real incentive to carry our good studies?

So I fully understand your non-drug based approach but I must say I really dislike to see on me such a low value of this steroid. I must say though other hormones are pretty normal but here I could so far never really close on the complex issue of the "normal" vs "optimal". I try to rather look at hormone axis and ratios (say DHEA-S/Cortisol - can modulate stress and immunity, Testosterone/Estrogen, E2/free testosterone, ....)

Definitively I think hormones modulation warrants NOT a do-it-yourself approach.

There is a huge literature if you really want to go deep, one is "DHEA in Human Health and Aging" ed R Watson here (not fully read though)

Please let us know what you discover more in this area!

BTW, you mention in your video Levine's "PhenoAge": is that her "Phenotypic Age" number you track for biological age BA or her "PhenoAge" which makes use of DNA methylation data? I might have missed you might also made a DNAm test for BA though ...

 

Thanks albedo. I'm not convinced that it's a cholesterol problem on my end-I have 2 days with eggs, and DHEA-S is not much higher than without it. Also, anecdotally, that your TC is higher than mine but DHEA-S is lower, which also suggests that it may not be a cholesterol problem. I disagree about hormones not being in the do-it-yourself approach. The big question is, what diet, exercise and/or supplements can optimize adrenal function, which declines during aging? 

Interestingly, DHEA sulfation is impaired by LPS, which increases during aging (https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/15198932/). So it could be related to that, and is a harder fix. Do you drink alcohol? That's been shown to increase DHEA-S (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15166654/). I'm not keen on including it for me, as it's known to mess up HRV and RHR, but I'm considering relatively small amounts/day, like 2 oz.

Hi Michael! Very informative, thank you.

Hormones tracking and interpretation (mostly DHEA) was and still is the most challenging to me.

Now, I understand your dietary approach is counter to drug-based which I fully understand but have you considered physiological supplementation with DHEA (typically 25 mg/d) as you have now with Quantify a quick way to test whether or not you mess up with other things. It is the same problem and decision I must take as my level of DHEA-S are astronomically lower (last point at 19.2 mcg/dl or 0.5 mcmol/l  !!). Btw, in case use a good formulation from a good brand as sometimes you get nothing in the bottle.

There is also the idea to use keto-DHEA which is supposed to impact metabolism (if needed, you might not) but avoids hormonal path conversions you do not want (e.g. for men I would check E2 (estradiol, main estrogen) and DHT (dihydrotestosterone) for our prostate health and BPH (benign prostate hyperplasia) the latter increasing w/ age)

Consider DHEA supplementation seems decreasing in benefit with age (here) and jury is not out yet (here) and maybe will never be - which is the real incentive to carry our good studies?

So I fully understand your non-drug based approach but I must say I really dislike to see on me such a low value of this steroid. I must say though other hormones are pretty normal but here I could so far never really close on the complex issue of the "normal" vs "optimal". I try to rather look at hormone axis and ratios (say DHEA-S/Cortisol - can modulate stress and immunity, Testosterone/Estrogen, E2/free testosterone, ....)

Definitively I think hormones modulation warrants NOT a do-it-yourself approach.

There is a huge literature if you really want to go deep, one is "DHEA in Human Health and Aging" ed R Watson here (not fully read though)

Please let us know what you discover more in this area!

BTW, you mention in your video Levine's "PhenoAge": is that her "Phenotypic Age" number you track for biological age BA or her "PhenoAge" which makes use of DNA methylation data? I might have missed you might also made a DNAm test for BA though ...

 

Levine's BA is the blood-based biomarker metric, which is unrelated to her DNAm measurement.

[albedo]

...I disagree about hormones not being in the do-it-yourself approach. The big question is, what diet, exercise and/or supplements can optimize adrenal function, which declines during aging? ...

I meant mostly aggressive interventions such as GH etc but even DHEA supplementation might mess things up e.g. when converting for men mostly to testosterone and possibly make our PSA worse so you need to excise caution. In my case I am chronically and highly deficient in that hormone though so a little supplementation might be warranted. Testosterone converts to DHT (powerful, I guess a principal culprit in enlarging our prostate) and E2, then you need to potentially use respectively 5-alpha-reductase or aromatase inhibitors. There are powerful drugs for that and bland supplementation. I fully agree with diet and exercise and still believe you need lot of caution with supplements/drugs. At least I find extremely difficult doing it on my own. Wrt to exercise, it is shown to increase DHEA even though response in differentiated between males and females (higher): https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3592957/

Edited by albedo, 16 September 2022 - 09:55 PM.

[albedo]

...Interestingly, DHEA sulfation is impaired by LPS, which increases during aging (https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/15198932/). So it could be related to that, and is a harder fix. Do you drink alcohol? That's been shown to increase DHEA-S (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15166654/). I'm not keen on including it for me, as it's known to mess up HRV and RHR, but I'm considering relatively small amounts/day, like 2 oz...

I drink very rarely alcohol, mhhh maybe I should do a little more ...

...Levine's BA is the blood-based biomarker metric, which is unrelated to her DNAm measurement.

 

Then I guess it should be referred to as Phenotypic Age in your excellent presentation.
 

[Michael Lustgarten]

I meant mostly aggressive interventions such as GH etc but even DHEA supplementation might mess things up e.g. when converting for men mostly to testosterone and possibly make our PSA worse so you need to excise caution. In my case I am chronically and highly deficient in that hormone though so a little supplementation might be warranted. Testosterone converts to DHT (powerful, I guess a principal culprit in enlarging our prostate) and E2, then you need to potentially use respectively 5-alpha-reductase or aromatase inhibitors. There are powerful drugs for that and bland supplementation. I fully agree with diet and exercise and still believe you need lot of caution with supplements/drugs. At least I find extremely difficult doing it on my own. Wrt to exercise, it is shown to increase DHEA even though response in differentiated between males and females (higher): https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3592957/

 

Exercise is already a part of the approach, so we'll have to use other ways to increase DHEA-S...

[albedo]

Please Michael, it would be extremely beneficial for all to know what you find. AFAIK, you are unique in both doing what you are doing and communicating it so regularly to the community.

[Michael Lustgarten]

Please Michael, it would be extremely beneficial for all to know what you find. AFAIK, you are unique in both doing what you are doing and communicating it so regularly to the community.

 

Thanks albedo, and will do!

[albedo]

Michael, considering our approaches are slightly different (I tend to supplement), considering the trend (~15 years) for DHEA is lowering but testosterone and free-testorerone are rising (!), would you bother supplementation with DHAE (25 mg was what I was using, from time to time)?

 

When I did supplement I also considered estradiol and DHT which I wanted under control, respectively lowering (which is good for men, but in the norm as we also need it) and increasing (which is bad, e.g. for our prostate, but still in the norm).

 

I feel body is regulating pretty well, exercise is working pretty well (despite not for DHEA) and sexual function is OK.

 

I always had issues with so called "optimal" hormonal levels as I never understood really what we mean and how you would assess what would be "your optimal". Hormones are intrinsically highly sensitive and regulatory so I am cautious (e.g. consider IGF-1 and GH and cancer ...).

Edited by albedo, 16 October 2022 - 11:02 AM.

[albedo]

What looks like an "expert" thread is also here by Thingsvarious : https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=904874 just in case you wish to contribute.

[albedo]

"DHEA is a hormone produced by the adrenal gland. DHEA-S is synthesized from DHEA
and converted into other hormones [290]. Assays measure DHEA-S instead of DHEA
because DHEA-S is less rapidly cleared from the bloodstream and has less diurnal variation
[290–293]. DHEA-S has been hypothesized to serve as a functional antagonist to HPA
activity and thus is an important indicator of overall activity in the HPA [294–302].
The level of DHEA is age related. Production of DHEA stops at birth, then resumes around
age 7 and peaks when people are in their mid-twenties. From the early thirties on, there is a
steady decline (about 2% each year) until around age 75, when the level of DHEA in the
body is about 5% of the peak level. Because DHEA-S is related to age and longevity [296–
302], it has attracted attention for possible “antiaging” effects [303–305]. Normal values for
serum DHEA-S vary with sex as well as age. Normal ranges are 800–5600 µg/liter for men,
350–4300 µg/liter for women; although there may be slight variation in these levels across
laboratories. DHEA assays can be based on blood, saliva, or urine samples.
While there are mixed results by gender [306], the literature generally documents a link
between low DHEA-S and poor health outcomes. Lower DHEA-S is related to a history of
heart disease and mortality [105–108]. DHEA-S is hypothesized to be protective against
heart disease because of its anticlotting and antiproliferative properties [106, 307]. Low
DHEA-S has also been related to worse physical and mental functioning [109, 110, 308].
Low DHEA-S has been included as one component of allostatic load [102, 309]. In addition,
studies have found that DHEA-S is a marker for bone turnover predicting bone mineral
density [310], and low levels have been linked to AD [111, 295]."

 

Crimmins E, Vasunilashorn S, Kim JK, Alley D. Biomarkers related to aging in human populations. Adv Clin Chem. 2008;46:161-216. doi: 10.1016/s0065-2423(08)00405-8. PMID: 19004190; PMCID: PMC5938178.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5938178/

 

(they give is a reference (160), not checked, giving <350 ng/ml (or 35 mcg/dl) as clinical cut-off indication)

Edited by albedo, 10 December 2022 - 12:23 PM.

[albedo]

You might find interesting points also here:

 

https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=927322

[albedo]

Not sure if you can extract useful info from here. I could not but just in case ...

https://nutritionfac..._eid=f56b67bcfa

[Michael Lustgarten]

I saw that, thanks albedo. The assumption would be that higher DHEA-->higher DHEAS, but also, not necessarily

[albedo]

I did not study the benefits of supplementation for women but for men I am always intrigued by the conversion to E2 which is not good for our prostate. Hence caution....