141 replies to this topic

[Hip]

Would anyone care to estimate how many people the antivaxers posting on the various Longecity COVID threads have killed so far, with their antivax propaganda? That is say, how many people died, but would be alive today had they not been persuaded to forego the COVID vaccines because on the antivax sentiment expressed on Longecity?

 

I've performed a simple calculation below to work out how many individuals Longecity's antivax propagandists may have killed so far, and my estimate is that they may have killed 3 people.

 

 

 

Here is the calculation:

 

Looking at the stats, about 20,000 people have read the various COVID thread on Longecity so far. If all those people caught COVID and were unvaccinated, with the unvaccinated death rate being around 0.3%, you would expect 60 deaths out of those 20,000. 

 

Vaccination we know reduces the COVID death rate by around a factor of 20, so if everyone were vaccinated, then the 60 deaths would be reduced to just 3 deaths, and thus 57 lives would be saved if all the 20,000 readers of the Longecity threads were vaccinated.

 

Now, it is hard to estimate the psychological impact that Longecity's antivax propaganda has had on people's COVID vaccination decisions. But just as a very rough guess, let's say Longecity's propaganda has caused 5% of the the 20,000 readers to change their mind against getting vaccinated. 

 

So 5% of 57 is about 3 people. 

 

Thus in this calculation, the antivax propaganda on Longecity has killed 3 individuals. Nice work guys!

 

☠ ☠ ☠ 

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

Covid is no longer mainly a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Here’s why

 

https://www.washingt...y-covid-deaths/

 

"For the first time, a majority of Americans dying from the coronavirus received at least the primary series of the vaccine."

 

"Fifty-eight percent of coronavirus deaths in August were people who were vaccinated or boosted, according to an analysis conducted for The Health 202 by Cynthia Cox, vice president at the Kaiser Family Foundation."

 

"It’s a continuation of a troubling trend that has emerged over the past year. As vaccination rates have increased and new variants appeared, the share of deaths of people who were vaccinated has been steadily rising. In September 2021, vaccinated people made up just 23 percent of coronavirus fatalities. In January and February this year, it was up to 42 percent, per our colleagues Fenit Nirappil and Dan Keating."

 

“We can no longer say this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated,” Cox told The Health 202.

[kurdishfella]

blame game. you should become a politician. 

[Daniel Cooper]

So what are you saying Hip? Discussing whether these vaccines are worth the risk (no matter how small or large that risk might be) versus the risk of getting covid (no matter how small or large that risk might be) is beyond the pale and not a legitimate topic?

 

What other things in your opinion are outside the bounds of proper discussion?

 

 

[joesixpack]

Please don't feed the troll, it only encourages him.

[Gal220]

So what are you saying Hip? Discussing whether these vaccines are worth the risk (no matter how small or large that risk might be) versus the risk of getting covid (no matter how small or large that risk might be) is beyond the pale and not a legitimate topic?

 

What other things in your opinion are outside the bounds of proper discussion?

 

Its all over social media, so many people out there trying to pretend to think for you.   

From the clinical trial, which used a really expensive process to make a clean shot, there was 1 in 800 chance for a severe reaction

https://t.co/LDSP1tMiri

 

 

The vaccine was approved under emergency use, but it is 99.9%+ survivable for most age groups.

 

There are still no long term studies(of course) and the cancer data doesn't look good.  50% of the VAERs deaths happen within 48 hrs of vxx and like the current excess death that continues to this day, completely ignored

https://twitter.com/...609826192252932

 

 

Saline or Xlear nasal rinses, antihistamine/lactoferrin, vitamin C/D, zinc salt + quercetin, selenium ... they just don't make anyone any money 

https://stevekirsch....al-wash-reduces

https://duckduckgo.c...vid&t=h_&ia=web

https://twitter.com/...814753782398976

 

 

The real trick was not doing anything at all till you needed hospitalization and vent.. per the CDC, that's what killed people

Edited by Gal220, 30 November 2022 - 09:49 PM.

[Gal220]

Covid is no longer mainly a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Here’s why

 

https://www.washingt...y-covid-deaths/

 

"For the first time, a majority of Americans dying from the coronavirus received at least the primary series of the vaccine."

 

I'm not sure this was ever true

https://twitter.com/...507919816851457

 

"In other words, the true underlying cause deaths were in the green curve - and the peak in blue deaths were merely cases.

Persons dying of other causes were assigned a Covid cause of death, IF and only IF - they were unvaccinated."

 

 

-We already know the CDC cherry picked the bogus natural immunity data and lied about heavy menstrual cycles for women

-Vaccine deaths being counted as covid deaths(immunity is gone for 2 weeks after the shot) on top of blood clot risks

 

 

Those in poor health, not able to produce a good immune response(vax or no), are the ones who are dying

Early treatment could have made the difference if we focused on oral/nasal decontamination instead of hand washing..

[Hip]

So what are you saying Hip? Discussing whether these vaccines are worth the risk (no matter how small or large that risk might be) versus the risk of getting covid (no matter how small or large that risk might be) is beyond the pale and not a legitimate topic?

 

What other things in your opinion are outside the bounds of proper discussion?

 

It's an important topic, and it would be great if people with good science expertise, and without biases and personal ideological conflicts could discuss it. 

 

Unfortunately here it seems people's biases and ideological conflicts get the better of them. 

 

Some people are philosophy against science and conventional medicine, believing that herbs or natural supplements are the only legitimate treatment. Others by their nature are pathologically suspicious of authorities or the establishment, so heavily criticise any official science. Others are hardcore antivaxers. Still others are mired in conspiracy theory.

 

 

 

During the pandemic the Western world became a cesspit of squabbling, rebellion and paranoia of the authorities. A lot of the public rather than co-operating with their governments chose to rebel, and chose to flout rules designed to fight the virus (both the public and our leaders flouted rules). The result of this liberal individualism of the West has been far worse outcomes during the pandemic, compared to the cooperative communitarian countries like South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore.

 

Studies indicate that communitarian countries had far less deaths per capita than countries with a squabbling liberal individualist philosophy:

 

“The Tragedy of the Commons”: How Individualism and Collectivism Affected the Spread of the COVID-19 Pandemic

 

The world’s most communitarian countries are handling the pandemic well. The most individualistic countries are doing the worst. 

 

 

 

So the squabbling, rebellion and paranoia in the discussions here (and everywhere else in the West) seems to have led to more deaths, not less.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 01 December 2022 - 02:32 AM.

[Gal220]

So the squabbling, rebellion and paranoia in the discussions here (and everywhere else in the West) seems to have led to more deaths, not less.

 

Lets say the shots actually worked with the side the effects in place(1 in 800 severe reactions with possible death).  If this were a more serious virus like ebola, I think more people would jumped on board, like myself

 

 

What is concerning if we needed this vaccine

-The east and maybe 1 or 2 countries in the west recommended aspirating the needle, for a shot that it was important that it stay in the shoulder.  

-It took over a year for the CDC to recommend spreading the shots out more to stop the hyper immune response to the 2nd shot.  Several doctors recommended this early on

-Similar to the 2nd shot, tracking data showed early on (Kings College Zoe App of 600k users) that the covid recovered experienced more side effects.  Plus, total coverage could have been achieved much faster if they were excluded

-It took over a year to stop the J&J shot

-In the US, Moderna is still allowed for under 30(except FL), despite Canada and most of the EU restricting it for this age group.  Its 3x the dose, more medicine = more side effects, nothing is more basic

-Basic side effects were covered up, 48% of women report irregular periods, only just now acknowledged.  There is no way this was not known from the beginning

-Those taking the shot would still benefit from basic nutrition like vitamin D, the shot wont be effective if you are deficient, it still relies on your immunity to work

 

The corruption and incompetence really needs to be addressed in our 3 letter agencies

Edited by Gal220, 01 December 2022 - 04:02 PM.

[Hip]

It was right to continue the J&J and AstraZeneca shots, even though they killed something like one in a million with blood clots. This is because when vaccines were in short supply, and when the nasty delta strain was about, getting people vaccinated saved far, far more lives that it killed. This should be obvious, it should not need to be explained.

 

The problem is that many people don't understand the logic and rationale of the decisions that are made by public health officials. Instead they they read some bullshit sensationalist media publications, and get the idiot's view on the pandemic, rather than the scientific view. People then end up with mistrust regarding the public health officials, rather than accepting that the decisions that these officials have made have good reasons behind them. Hyped up on sensationalism, the public then go demonstrating in the streets, flouting the rules, and generally causing pandemonium. 

 

In fact pandemonium is a good word, because that's what we had in the West, pandemonium, not a pandemic!

 

The bottom line is that in the cooperative, public-spirited communitarian countries, they have far less deaths than in the individualistic selfish West. They trusted their governments, and followed the advice of their governments, and as a result had far fewer deaths. 

 

Whereas in the West, all our gutter-press media (that use sensationalism as a means to draw in readers and earn ad revenue) caused public uproar and distrust, caused the masses to rebel from the rules and guidelines, and the result was 5 to 10 times more deaths per capita than in the communitarian countries.

 

So you can say what you like, but the death figures speak more loudly. 

 

 

But don't take my word for it, look up the death per capita for every country. For example, the US has 3099 death per million, the UK 2688 per million. Whereas Japan has just 250 deaths per million, South Korea 476 death per million. 

Edited by Hip, 01 December 2022 - 04:39 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

When ever you look at deaths & death rates from COVID, whether vaccinated or unvaccinated, you really should separate pre-omicron data from post-omicron.  They really are two different worlds.  

 

I got jabbed in April & November 2021 (J&J) as I saw many were dying and suffering permanent disability.  Once I got omicron in January 2022, & got some real world experience with HCQ + Zinc, everything changed.  

 

Nevermore to the vaccines.  The new COVID is very treatable.  

[Gal220]

It was right to continue the J&J and AstraZeneca shots, even though they killed something like one in a million with blood clots. This is because when vaccines were in short supply, and when the nasty delta strain was about, getting people vaccinated saved far, far more lives that it killed. This should be obvious, it should not need to be explained.

 

So you can say what you like, but the death figures speak more loudly. 

 

But don't take my word for it, look up the death per capita for every country. For example, the US has 3099 death per million, the UK 2688 per million. Whereas Japan has just 250 deaths per million, South Korea 476 death per million. 

 

Its tricky to get good numbers on the clots, like so many stats in the pandemic. 

Many countries restricted AZ to over 65, b/c the risk was so low for under 65.   The UK let politics get in the way and just restricted for under 30.

 

But should AZ ever have been restricted, it didnt have the severe refrigeration limits?  Couldnt an adjunct blood thinner be given with it(and the mRNA for that matter).  Sugar thickens blood, caffeine constricts blood vessels, fish oil and nattokinase thin the blood.  Information you would think be given to everyone.

 

I prefer excess mortality graphs myself, you can add and take away countries - https://ourworldinda...mortality-covid

 

 

The question remains, how many lives did our health agencies kill by not recommending early treatment, like every other disease known to man?

 

Oral-nasal decontamination(sure did love hand washing..) with H202 and mouthwash along with basic nutritional advice(exercise, C, D, zinc, selenium)

[joesixpack]

When ever you look at deaths & death rates from COVID, whether vaccinated or unvaccinated, you really should separate pre-omicron data from post-omicron.  They really are two different worlds.  

 

I got jabbed in April & November 2021 (J&J) as I saw many were dying and suffering permanent disability.  Once I got omicron in January 2022, & got some real world experience with HCQ + Zinc, everything changed.  

 

Nevermore to the vaccines.  The new COVID is very treatable.  

 

I agree, while new cases seem to be going up, hospitalizations and deaths are not, at least in the 2 states that I track.

 

I would go a step further and say that not only is Omicron very treatable, I believe the original strains were as well. 

 

When I was diagnosed with Pneumonia 4 months after the second Pfizer shot, I told the Physicians Assistant that I could not go to the hospital because I am the sole caregiver for my wife. She put me on an IV in the clinic to rehydrate me. After 3 hours she administered 3 different antibiotics, which I took for 10 days. She told me that she could have tested me for Covid, but chose not to. The unspoken message was, If you tested positive, the protocol is to send you home with no treatment.

 

As an aside the title for this thread is ludicrous. I would be willing to bet that almost everyone here has taken the Covid vaccine.

[Dorian Grey]

"The unspoken message was, If you tested positive, the protocol is to send you home with no treatment."

 

Yes, this was the greatest outrage of the early days.  I blame Dr Fauci & his remdesivir, which was only administered to hospitalized patients. 

 

If he hadn't produced his sham-show study, I'm confident early treatment would have been much more popular, but once it became the ONLY (EUA) approved treatment, this put all other therapies on the back burner.  

 

Just hang tough at home, and if you get really sick, you'll be eligible for Fauci's game-changer wonder drug.  Then it's off to the ICU for some therapeutic ventilation!  

[Empiricus]

I have a lot of admiration for vaccinated people who have remained open to information that contradicts what they believed when they took the injections.  It's not such an easy thing for them to do when the media, government, and medical establishment offer an echo chamber that continually celebrates the wisdom of their original decision to comply.

Edited by Empiricus, 01 December 2022 - 07:10 PM.

[Hip]

I prefer excess mortality graphs myself, you can add and take away countries - https://ourworldinda...mortality-covid

 

The best country to look at for any excess mortality effects from the COVID vaccines is New Zealand. This is because due to an effective set of pandemic restrictions, there were almost no COVID cases whatsoever in NZ (until recently, when they relaxed the restrictions and COVID finally arrived in NZ). 

 

So with NZ excess death data, you can separate the effects of the virus from the effects of the vaccines, as there was no virus in NZ during the roll out of the vaccines. 

 

 

The COVID vaccination program was started in NZ on 20 February 2021. If you look at this orange and red diagram of excess deaths by country during the entire pandemic period, you can see New Zealand about half way down the chart.

 

In NZ here were no excess deaths when the vaccines began getting rolled out from Feb 2021, nor in the year that followed the introduction of the vaccines in NZ. A total of 81% of people in NZ had at least two doses of the vaccine, so the vaccine rollout was quite comprehensive. Yet no excess deaths.

 

In fact, if anything, there were less deaths than normal in NZ on the diagram in the year the vaccine rollout took place (less deaths than normal is indicated by a grey colour on the diagram).

 

You can hover your mouse along the NZ line in the diagram in the link given, to get the week by week excess death percentage. For the whole year following the start of the vaccine rollout, you see more grey than anything else, indicating less death than expected for that week.

 

 

 

 

Excess deaths only started appearing in NZ around March 2022, when NZ relaxed their restrictions and were then finally hit with a wave of COVID. Those excess deaths you see from March 2022 onwards were due to the virus. 

 

So it is clear from the New Zealand data that the COVID vaccines are not killing millions of people, as many irresponsible people on social media are trying to claim. 

Edited by Hip, 01 December 2022 - 09:17 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Hip shoots...  He Scores!  GOOOooooooooal.  That is a good point Hip.  

 

Why did the Monty Python dead parrot skit just pop into my head?  Perhaps there were excess deaths, but the authoritarian NZ propagandists were hiding them? 

 

 

They're not dead, they're just resting!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 01 December 2022 - 09:51 PM.

[Gal220]

So it is clear from the New Zealand data that the COVID vaccines are not killing millions of people, as many irresponsible people on social media are trying to claim. 

 

 

This could highlight 3 problems, 1 already mentioned above

 

-Those already infected were 3x more likely to have side effects according to the Zoe app.  Ie the shot should never be given to the covid recovered. 

Normally myocarditus happens after the 2nd shot, but it can happen after the 1st if you already had covid

 

-Others have documented that catching covid directly after vaccination can be fatal if not after 2 weeks as the immune system is in a weakened state

 

-Bad batches, it has been noted that a few batches accounts for most of the adverse events  Perhaps NZ had better quality control in this respect

 

 

Then there is still the issue of cancer increase and possible other long term side effects.  Unless high risk, the shot should have never been given

 

 

Corruption aspect, Longecity users have not pushed do nothing.

-Blatantly apparent with Remdesivir, only expensive therapeutics have been approved.  It has continued with Paxlovid

-If hand washing can be pushed, so can oral-nasal hygiene. Probably would have ended the pandemic

-Early treatment Drs were very successful, just no money in it for Pharma..

 

Shouldnt the safest treatment be used? Obviously the CDC doesnt think so, they still allow Moderna for under 30(NIH owns part of the patent...)

[Hip]

Normally myocarditus happens after the 2nd shot, but it can happen after the 1st if you already had covid

 

You antivaxers do go on and on. It gets tedious. Above you said you like to look at the excess mortality data, as it provides the best picture. Having given that excess mortality data showing safety, now you say "but what if this, what if that, what if the other". No end to the antivax pernickety nonsense. It's like a nagging oid woman.

 

Can you provide references for all the unsubstantiated statements you made in your above post? Not from Mickey Mouse websites, from reliable sources. 
 
 
 
If myocarditis were triggered by the COVID vaccines after you have had COVID, that might mean that your heart tissues have become chronically infected with SARS-CoV-2. We know SARS-CoV-2 has affinity for the heart. There are many viruses which can chronically infect the heart tissues, and can then cause various heart diseases further down the line. 
 
If SARS-CoV-2 in living in someone's heart tissues, then this myocarditis inflammatory response in the heart after the vaccine may just be the immune system trying to clear the SARS-CoV-2 virus from the heart. In which case, the inflammation (immune activation) in the heart might actually be do good in the long term, clearing the virus and preventing virally-triggered heart disease that might appear at a later date.
 
Similarly, some people with the illness of long COVID have reported feeling better after the COVID vaccines. This may be because long COVID is due to the SARS-CoV-2 lingering in the tissues of various organs (including the brain), and the vaccine might in some cases stimulate the immune system to clear more of the viral infection. 
 
See: Study suggests COVID-19 vaccines reduce long COVID symptoms from previous infection. 
 
 
 
Longevity enthusiasts generally have very little understanding that the many persistent low-level "smouldering" viral infections they have in their bodies tissues and organs is likely going to be the factor that terminates their life, not the usual wear and tear of ageing. Viral as well as bacterial infections living in our cells and tissues are ticking time bombs for ill health, diseases, cancers and early death. 
 
By attacking protective vaccines, and pretending that all the pernicious viruses which live in our bodies are benign and nothing to worry about, longevity enthusiasts on this forum have made a terrible mistake. Longevity enthusiasts need to get on the right side of history. 



 

-Blatantly apparent with Remdesivir, only expensive therapeutics have been approved.  It has continued with Paxlovid

 
The mainstay of COVID hospital treatment involves giving oxygen gas (cheaply available at all hospitals), corticosteroids (costs pennies a pill), and ventilators (no cost at all once the hospital has the equipment).

 

 

 

If you want supplements to be promoted as COVID treatments, then Big Vitamin has to get in on the act.

 

Pharmaceuticals are promoted at treatments because the Big Pharma conducts expensive clinical trials, and has strong links to the healthcare organisations, so they have the ear of doctors.

 

If you want supplements to be used to treat disease, then Big Vitamin will also need to forge links to the healthcare organisations, and also conduct expensive clinical trials. Then if their supplement products show efficacy, they may be able to persuade doctors to prescribe them to treat disease.

 

The reason we do not see more supplements being used to treat disease is because Big Vitamin is too lazy to forge relationships with the healthcare organisations, and too stingy to spend money on clinical trials. It's also because most supplements have only a very weak effect in terms of treating disease; in other words, most of the products from Big Vitamin are naff. 

 


 

Then there is still the issue of cancer increase and possible other long term side effects.  Unless high risk, the shot should have never been given

 

What evidence is there that ANY vaccine has ever increased the risk of cancer? There is none. This vaccine cancer idea I expect comes from the sensationalist click-bait media that the uninformed masses like reading and then propagating mindlessly on social media. 

 

On the other hand, some viruses are linked to cancer. These viruses are living in your body right now, and may be triggering cancers and chronic disease.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 02 December 2022 - 09:31 PM.

[Gal220]

You antivaxers do go on and on. It gets tedious. Above you said you like to look at the excess mortality data, as it provides the best picture. Having given that excess mortality data showing safety, now you say "but what if this, what if that, what if the other". No end to the antivax pernickety nonsense. It's like a nagging oid woman.

 

Can you provide references for all the unsubstantiated statements you made in your above post? Not from Mickey Mouse websites, from reliable sources. 

 

So you don't consider real world tracking data showing much higher side effects with a prior infection legitimate?  Something NZ wouldn't have in common with other countries.  McCullough had TX estimates at 80% herd immunity prior to the roll out.   All setup for a bad outcome if they got vaccinated.

 

https://www.mdpi.com...29/11/3/249/htm

https://www.theepoch...dy_3685032.html

https://www.medrxiv....2192v1.full.pdf

https://www.express....covid-infection

 

"Another larger study published on MDPI, or Multidisciplinary Digital Publishing Institute, in March 2021 found that “a prior COVID-19 infection was associated with an increased risk of any side effect” as well as “an increased risk of severe side effects leading to hospital care"

 

"Researchers from Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai said that people who have had recovered from COVID-19 experienced more severe whole-body reactions after the first shot and stronger side effects after the second shot. They suggested that people with prior infection should only get one shot of an mRNA vaccine."

 

"found that the participants with a prior infection reported “at least one moderate-to-severe symptom” occurring within 24 hours at a higher rate than those with no history of COVID-19"

 

 

It has nothing to do with Big Vitamin

The CDC website already says H202 kills the virus, dentist were asking patients to rinse with it in 2020, prior to the vaccine roll out.  But all we get is wash your hands

There are tons of studies on vitamin D, but even Fauci got shouted down for mentioning it and 2 grams of C.  

 

Its not like immunity and nutrition isnt well understood...

https://lpi.oregonst...munity-in-brief

 

 

 

The cancer data keeps coming out, ignore it if you want

 

"Cancer is at a 9-sigma rise. The numbers are more than clear on this."

 

https://twitter.com/...885682091290624

https://twitter.com/...898764947197953

 

 

 

Cheers to the hospitals who have stopped Remdesivir, are you saying any hospital that uses it is in fact corrupt?

https://www.theblaze...of-the-pandemic

[Dorian Grey]

Here's something off topic, pointless & time wasting...  The whole vax / antivax debate reminds me of the second hand smoke wars of the '90s.  

 

They had already banned smoking nearly everywhere, & bars and taverns were the final frontier.  They wanted to say second hand smoke would give the bartenders cancer, but it seems they never could give animals cancer with second hand smoke.  The ultimate test was to be a trial with golden hamsters, who would live in a cloud of second hand smoke continuously from a very early age.  D'oh!  The hamsters didn't get cancer!  They punted to saying second hand nicotine might give cardiac patients a heart attack, & with no clinical data, passed their smoking ban.  

 

We know the vaccines don't prevent infection, transmission, or symptomatic disease; so let's settle this thing here & now. 

 

IF YOU LIKE THE VACCINES...  GET THEM! 

 

IF YOU DON'T, THEN CHEERS & BEST OF LUCK TO YOU!  

 

OK, that was easy!  

[Hip]

So you don't consider real world tracking data showing much higher side effects with a prior infection legitimate?

 

 

As the example I gave above of a lingering COVID heart infection outlines, if you have low-level reservoirs of SARS-CoV-2 virus still left in your body tissues and organs from a prior acute COVID infection many months ago, you might expect that you are going to get more symptoms from a COVID vaccine.

 

This is because the vaccine is stimulating the immune system to do its job of fighting the virus. When the immune system starts fighting any remnants of the virus left in your body, and starts to clear that virus out of your tissues, you may feel symptoms, as this is normal when the immune system is operating.

 

It is normal to feel symptoms when there is immune action. You feel miserable symptoms when you are fighting a cold or flu, for example. So it would not be surprising to experience more symptoms if the COVID vaccine prompts your immune system to fight the COVID remnants in your body. You call these side effects of the vaccine, but they may simply be the symptoms of the immune system doing a good job of clearing the virus.

 

 

In the long term, if the COVID vaccine is helping to clear more of the COVID remnants from your body, there may be less chance you are going to develop some chronic disease or cancer in the future. 

 

Every virus you have living in your body has health consequences. Those consequences may not manifest immediately; it may take years or even decades before these viruses causes sufficient tissue damage to create a chronic disease. However slowly but surely, the viruses in your body are eventually likely going to trigger a chronic disease or cancer at some point.   

 

People are mistaken if they think once an acute viral infection is over, that's the end of that particular virus. After the acute infection is over, many viruses (and bacteria too) can linger in your tissues indefinitely, as a low-level infection.

 

For all the most common viruses and bacteria which linger indefinitely in our bodies, we have a good idea about what sort of diseases and cancers they might precipitate. But SARS-CoV-2 is new, so the long-term health consequences of having that virus living in your body is not yet known. It might in decades to come be shown to increase the risks of dementia, heart disease, cancers, or who knows what.

 

 

 

This antivaxer fixation with the vaccines being the cause of ill health distracts from the problem that humanity has with infectious pathogens like viruses and bacteria. These body-damaging pathogens are wreaking havoc with our health, yet most people have ostrich syndrome, and ignore this terrible blight on the human race.

[Dorian Grey]

I'll bite, some immunocompromised cancer & HIV patients may have persistent residual infection, but I hardly think this is the norm.  

 

To opine no one really gets rid of the virus until they get a vaccine afterwards that somehow magically deep cleans the body seems grasping at straws.  

[joesixpack]

As the example I gave above of a lingering COVID heart infection outlines, if you have low-level reservoirs of SARS-CoV-2 virus still left in your body tissues and organs from a prior acute COVID infection many months ago, you might expect that you are going to get more symptoms from a COVID vaccine.

 

This is because the vaccine is stimulating the immune system to do its job of fighting the virus. When the immune system starts fighting any remnants of the virus left in your body, and starts to clear that virus out of your tissues, you may feel symptoms, as this is normal when the immune system is operating.

 

It is normal to feel symptoms when there is immune action. You feel miserable symptoms when you are fighting a cold or flu, for example. So it would not be surprising to experience more symptoms if the COVID vaccine prompts your immune system to fight the COVID remnants in your body. You call these side effects of the vaccine, but they may simply be the symptoms of the immune system doing a good job of clearing the virus.

 

 

In the long term, if the COVID vaccine is helping to clear more of the COVID remnants from your body, there may be less chance you are going to develop some chronic disease or cancer in the future. 

 

Every virus you have living in your body has health consequences. Those consequences may not manifest immediately; it may take years or even decades before these viruses causes sufficient tissue damage to create a chronic disease. However slowly but surely, the viruses in your body are eventually likely going to trigger a chronic disease or cancer at some point.   

 

People are mistaken if they think once an acute viral infection is over, that's the end of that particular virus. After the acute infection is over, many viruses (and bacteria too) can linger in your tissues indefinitely, as a low-level infection.

 

For all the most common viruses and bacteria which linger indefinitely in our bodies, we have a good idea about what sort of diseases and cancers they might precipitate. But SARS-CoV-2 is new, so the long-term health consequences of having that virus living in your body is not yet known. It might in decades to come be shown to increase the risks of dementia, heart disease, cancers, or who knows what.

 

 

 

This antivaxer fixation with the vaccines being the cause of ill health distracts from the problem that humanity has with infectious pathogens like viruses and bacteria. These body-damaging pathogens are wreaking havoc with our health, yet most people have ostrich syndrome, and ignore this terrible blight on the human race.

You keep calling all of us "anti vaxers", when it has been explained to you that most if not all members of this site have taken the Covid 19 "vaccination". What do you not understand about that? That is an ad hominem attack on people simply because you do not like their opinions, or the facts that they present. 

 

Please stop your useless, and pointless attacks.

Edited by joesixpack, 03 December 2022 - 05:51 AM.

[Hip]

I'll bite, some immunocompromised cancer & HIV patients may have persistent residual infection, but I hardly think this is the norm.  

 

To opine no one really gets rid of the virus until they get a vaccine afterwards that somehow magically deep cleans the body seems grasping at straws.  

 

I'd suggest people interested in longevity learn a bit about the various mechanisms by which viruses and bacteria can persist long term in the body, usually for the entire life of the person. 

 

The mechanisms are many and varied, but the end result is that the virus or bacterium remains for life in your cells, organs and tissues. And microbes which have become long term residents in the body are usually linked to triggering various diseases.

 

Mechanisms of viral persistence include: latency (such a chromosomal integration latency or episomal latency), non-cytolytic infections (these are caused by viral mutation in the host to create a defective virus that lives inside cells), and abortive viral infections.

 

Mechanisms of bacterial persistence include: conversion into L-forms, conversion into biofilm communities; and within those biofilm, conversion into persister bacteria. 

 

All these mechanisms allow scores of viruses and bacteria to live long term in our bodies.

 

 

Vaccination cannot remove these microbes. Vaccination can prevent you catching them in the first place, but cannot do much once you have already caught them. At best, a vaccination given after the virus is already in your body might stimulate the immune system to clear some of the virus. But don't expect it to eradicate the viral infection.

[Hip]

You keep calling all of us "anti vaxers", when it has been explained to you that most if not all members of this site have taken the Covid 19 "vaccination". What do you not understand about that?  

 

I've said before that an antivaxer is not someone who declines to take a vaccine for personal reasons. Rather, an antivaxer is someone who goes around online trying to stoke up unnecessary fears and anxieties about vaccination. This creating fear and anxieties might be done by constantly posting side effect stories, even though serious side effects are typically found in less than 1 in 50,000 people. Or by suggesting that the vaccines have some sinister side effect that is being suppressed.

 

Some people online for example are claiming that millions of people are dying from COVID vaccines, but this is not being noticed or is being hushed up. This is fear mongering, and unfortunately some people are susceptible to believing such false claims.

Edited by Hip, 03 December 2022 - 06:44 AM.

[Gal220]

Here's something off topic, pointless & time wasting...  The whole vax / antivax debate reminds me of the second hand smoke wars of the '90s.  

 

The name calling is just juvenile, 

 

-Malone/kulldorff believed only seniors should take the vaccine.  Malone eventually came around to the safer early treatment protocol

-McCullough early on believed just the high risk unvaccinated should get the shot

-Kirsch was pushing the vaccine hard early on, he took and his daughters took it.

-Brett Weinstein early on also believed the vaccine was the solution.

 

-Other Drs who still promote the vaccine think it should just be for the unvaccinated

-Vaccine pusher Paul Offit(age 72) didn't take the booster and said Omicron would require high antibodies which the vaccine would only do for 2 months

 

Various countries have put age restrictions or stopped using certain vaccines

 

 

But its easier just to blurt out anti-vaxxer to anyone who thinks otherwise...

[joesixpack]

I've said before that an antivaxer is not someone who declines to take a vaccine for personal reasons. Rather, an antivaxer is someone who goes around online trying to stoke up unnecessary fears and anxieties about vaccination. This creating fear and anxieties might be done by constantly posting side effect stories, even though serious side effects are typically found in less than 1 in 50,000 people. Or by suggesting that the vaccines have some sinister side effect that is being suppressed.

 

Some people online for example are claiming that millions of people are dying from COVID vaccines, but this is not being noticed or is being hushed up. This is fear mongering, and unfortunately some people are susceptible to believing such false claims.

Why are you calling us "AntiVaxers"?

 

You started this thread, you named it.

 

We took the "vax" using your term.

 

If we have questions about something we put in our bodies, and questions about the research being done, or not done, about the results and adverse consequences, where do you get off attacking us for raising questions?

 

Just asking.

[Dorian Grey]

I'd suggest people interested in longevity learn a bit about the various mechanisms by which viruses and bacteria can persist long term in the body, usually for the entire life of the person. 

 

The mechanisms are many and varied, but the end result is that the virus or bacterium remains for life in your cells, organs and tissues. And microbes which have become long term residents in the body are usually linked to triggering various diseases.

 

Mechanisms of viral persistence include: latency (such a chromosomal integration latency or episomal latency), non-cytolytic infections (these are caused by viral mutation in the host to create a defective virus that lives inside cells), and abortive viral infections.

 

Mechanisms of bacterial persistence include: conversion into L-forms, conversion into biofilm communities; and within those biofilm, conversion into persister bacteria. 

 

All these mechanisms allow scores of viruses and bacteria to live long term in our bodies.

 

 

Vaccination cannot remove these microbes. Vaccination can prevent you catching them in the first place, but cannot do much once you have already caught them. At best, a vaccination given after the virus is already in your body might stimulate the immune system to clear some of the virus. But don't expect it to eradicate the viral infection.

 

I understand persistent viral infections.  I know herpes persists, & the blood bank says I'm CMV negative.  When I asked them what this meant, they said I was cytomegalovirus negative...  Had never been exposed, which is rare in adults.  They need CMV negative blood to give to preemie babies, as they can react strongly to CMV.  

 

Whether all virus...  Influenza, rhinovirus (common cold), stomach flu / norovirus etc persist, until you take a vaccine; or whether a vaccine has ever eliminated persistent virus is another matter.  

 

I simply don't buy the possibility all exposed to coronavirus must take a vaccine, that only then will magically purge the virus completely and forever from our bodies.  Is there data to support this?  Or is this just fantasy?  

[Dorian Grey]

Why are you calling us "AntiVaxers"?

 

You started this thread, you named it.

 

We took the "vax" using your term.

 

If we have questions about something we put in our bodies, and questions about the research being done, or not done, about the results and adverse consequences, where do you get off attacking us for raising questions?

 

Just asking.

 

Yep, I'm fully vaxxed and boosted (J&J in April and November 2021).  Had all my childhood jabs too, and a tetanus boost 5 years ago.  

 

Just say NO to the flu jab though, and won't be getting the omicron jab either.  

 

Am I dyed in the wool anti-vax?