20 replies to this topic

[Anhedonia23]

I used to be a happy person, living my daily life the way I wanted to live it. I had the chance to work on my passion everyday, and was waking up excited to work on new project . Spending hours learning how to get better at my crafts and improve my skills, damn it was so good. I was doing music, drawing, painting (I used to love create things ), hanging out with friends, doing a lot of sports (used to LOVE watching but mostly practicing sports like basketball, soccer, and running, i loved running) taking care of me and the peoples i love and my family, i honestly couldn’t be more happy than I was (I wish to anyone to find a passions and living it that way, it’s truly amazing ), until 8 month ago when my life drastically change for the worse.

10month ago I got alcohol poisoning at a party with friends (I don’t drink often at all just occasionally, I’m not a heavy drinker), and I woke up the next day with a condition called anhedonia (inability to experience pleasure in anything). At first I didn’t pay much attention to hit thinking it was just a temporary problem caused by alcohol, nothing really important. But the problems remain for weeks, and then months. I’ve seen multiple psychologist, psychiatrist, doctors, neurologist etc…and they all called my case « atypical » cause they don’t think it’s depression (I also don’t think it is regarding my previous life and the so sudden change) but cannot pinpoint where the problem comes from. I’ve also done multiple MRI, CT Scan, blood test, kidney and bladder scan,etc… and they all came back fine. During all this lapse of time I tried to maintain a normal life but after a while I couldn’t and gave up. On top of that my sleep as been completely disrupted (started like 2 days after the event), I don’t have problems falling asleep but I keep waking up multiple time for no reason every nights. I’ve been giver battery of medication like benzo, hydroxyzine or even zopiclone for sleep but, none of them had any effect. Out of curiosity I tried drinking alcohol 4 month after the event and 3 days ago, but can’t feel the « high » effect anymore. Basically I can’t feel the endorphins/dopamine or the pleasure hormones that the body usually send you. I want insist on the fact that this is not due to depression at all, it happened overnight without any latent underlying condition. I’m thinking about maybe the glutamate excess that this alcohol consumption as trigger during the hangover, and then cause damages to the reward system (maybe the basal ganglia idk,), and I hope not some permanent ones.

So since this event I can’t be creative anymore, all the previous thing I told above don’t bring me pleasure anymore ( when I say pleasure I refer to feelings the hormone like endorphin/dopamine kind of thing flowing in my body). I can’t feel orgasm, runner high, appreciate a movie/photo/art, music make me feel nothing anymore, I can still taste food but don’t get pleasure from it, I feel disconnected when talking with friend cause I don’t feel touched emotionally by every subject we used to talk about or even new one anymore, and the list goes on. I’m exhausted by the lack of proper sleep and can’t workout anymore cause my body don’t recover properly and is sore ( also cause I can’t feel the high from sports anymore, which as the time goes by, really demotivate me).

Now after all this months, I (of course now) feel depressed cause my life completely changed in one night and I regret everyday going to this party that night. Idk what to do anymore, I’m still using all the energy I have left to do activities, or things I use to like before but nothing change a slightly bit. I can’t appreciate the present moment anymore, because of this. It’s hard cause I lost everything I loved, passion, interest etc… the thing that made my life worth living and I don’t know what I’m gonna do in the future. It seems like I fried my brain or the reward circuits in it permanently this night, and I hope I’m wrong stating this. I dont want to die (I’m only 21), but I also wonder what’s the point of staying alive just to be alive and not being able to enjoy anything you know?

Do some people got the same thing with alcohol or a sudden onset of anhedonia that remained ? And if yes have you find a way to get better?

thanks for reading.

Edited by Anhedonia23, 01 February 2023 - 04:16 AM.

[Meggo]

Shot in the dark: the Glutamate rebound led to kindling which isn't going away. So you basically have epilepsy now. If the kindling is taking place in the right amygdala - which it is prone to - you are now in a chronic state of anxiety which led to a state of chronic low grade dissociation, which leads to anhedonia. If this is true then you are in a catch 22, increasing glutamate would make the dissociation better initially but would inevitably lead to more kindling which will make the dissociation worse. To test this theory you would need to try some anti-epileptic substance that won't reduce your motivation or make you tired (i don't know of any). If this stops your anhedonia you would know.

[Mind]

There might be some supplements that could help with your condition, however, sometimes you can get back into a groove through practice. Even though you have a tough time being "creative", just going through the motions can get you back into the habit. Forcing yourself to engage in those activities as a routine can get you back into a "groove", even though it might not be enjoyable at first.

[Anhedonia23]

Shot in the dark: the Glutamate rebound led to kindling which isn't going away. So you basically have epilepsy now. If the kindling is taking place in the right amygdala - which it is prone to - you are now in a chronic state of anxiety which led to a state of chronic low grade dissociation, which leads to anhedonia. If this is true then you are in a catch 22, increasing glutamate would make the dissociation better initially but would inevitably lead to more kindling which will make the dissociation worse. To test this theory you would need to try some anti-epileptic substance that won't reduce your motivation or make you tired (i don't know of any). If this stops your anhedonia you would know.

I see what you mean, but no unfortunately. I’m not anxious, I can easily calm myself, and I don’t have even a slight dissociation, it’s just pure anhedonia only. The anhedonia and insomnia are both link I’m 100% sure, it make sense because if I can’t feel "good" in dreams either, how can my brain or body sleep well.

I should have mention that I’ve tried taking alcohol again and benzos (which both act on glutamate ), but I didn’t felt anything, not even a slight euphoria, just little dizziness. I even took some psylocibin, but it didn’t change anything either.

Thanks for trying to find a solution tho, that’s kind.

[Anhedonia23]

There might be some supplements that could help with your condition, however, sometimes you can get back into a groove through practice. Even though you have a tough time being "creative", just going through the motions can get you back into the habit. Forcing yourself to engage in those activities as a routine can get you back into a "groove", even though it might not be enjoyable at first.

Thx for the trying to help me. As I mentioned in the post, I’m already still forcing myself into doing activities and stuff, for a big big while now, but it doesn’t change even slightly unfortunately.

[Meggo]

I see what you mean, but no unfortunately. I’m not anxious, I can easily calm myself, and I don’t have even a slight dissociation, it’s just pure anhedonia only. The anhedonia and insomnia are both link I’m 100% sure, it make sense because if I can’t feel "good" in dreams either, how can my brain or body sleep well.

I should have mention that I’ve tried taking alcohol again and benzos (which both act on glutamate ), but I didn’t felt anything, not even a slight euphoria, just little dizziness. I even took some psylocibin, but it didn’t change anything either.

Thanks for trying to find a solution tho, that’s kind.

 

Sleeplessness often goes hand in hand with a sensitized HPA-Axis. That your problems began after ingestion of a gabaergic substance (maybe some form of chronic down (or up-!) regulation) also seems to point to such a conclusion. Are you sure that you aren't anxious? 

Is your sleeplessness a difficulty to fall asleep (racing thoughts) or terminal insomnia - waking up and unable to fall asleep again, maybe at around 3am when cortisol starts to rise again? Has the quality of your thoughts / daydreams changed? Are they more dreamy and hypnagogic (ADHD-PI / dissociative) or more sharply felt/ anger fueled or reactive to exogenic distractions (sympathetic stress reactions / classical ADHD) or no change? 

One aspect of dissociation is also bad memory (part of NMDA Antagonism) which leads to bad recollection of positive triggers which leads to less motivation to reexperience those triggers. thus anhedonia. Bad memory regarding specific situations/ feelings is also a big symptom of major depression, but insomnia itself can also wreck your memory so differential diagnosis here would be difficult. Has your body image changed: blurred sense of body borders because of endorphins, which bind to kappa opioid receptors leading to dissociation? Do Intentions just arise, without your body being able to follow them/ begin moving, you just lying there (again dissociation)? 

Modafinil and high dose (bad for liver) Naltrexone would counteract some of those symptoms. 

Do you still feel pleasure when eating, listening to the rain, watching a sunset (consummatory hedonism, endorphin fueled)?

[Anhedonia23]

Sleeplessness often goes hand in hand with a sensitized HPA-Axis. That your problems began after ingestion of a gabaergic substance (maybe some form of chronic down (or up-!) regulation) also seems to point to such a conclusion. Are you sure that you aren't anxious? 

Is your sleeplessness a difficulty to fall asleep (racing thoughts) or terminal insomnia - waking up and unable to fall asleep again, maybe at around 3am when cortisol starts to rise again? Has the quality of your thoughts / daydreams changed? Are they more dreamy and hypnagogic (ADHD-PI / dissociative) or more sharply felt/ anger fueled or reactive to exogenic distractions (sympathetic stress reactions / classical ADHD) or no change? 

One aspect of dissociation is also bad memory (part of NMDA Antagonism) which leads to bad recollection of positive triggers which leads to less motivation to reexperience those triggers. thus anhedonia. Bad memory regarding specific situations/ feelings is also a big symptom of major depression, but insomnia itself can also wreck your memory so differential diagnosis here would be difficult. Has your body image changed: blurred sense of body borders because of endorphins, which bind to kappa opioid receptors leading to dissociation? Do Intentions just arise, without your body being able to follow them/ begin moving, you just lying there (again dissociation)? 

Modafinil and high dose (bad for liver) Naltrexone would counteract some of those symptoms. 

Do you still feel pleasure when eating, listening to the rain, watching a sunset (consummatory hedonism, endorphin fueled)?

As I said before, no. No I’m not anxious, I can stay calm without problem, I wake up multiple Time during night at random moments but I don’t struggle to fall asleep. I can’t daydream anymore, and it seems logic because I can think of something good, but can’t feel the let’s say "endorphins/dopamine rush" type of thing. My toughts haven’t changed, and I have zero dissociation. This is different from depression, because I only have one symptoms: severe anhedonia. My body image hasn’t changed. Again I repeat, this is not dissociation, only anhedonia alone. I don’t struggle with motivation, I can have toughts of doing something, I just nothing doing it, no reward. So it’s more consummatory anhedonia. The problem is it’s of course hard to keep doing something when you don’t feel anything when doing or finishing it. I don’t feel pleasure  anymore in anything you can think of including the example you mentioned, it’s full anhedonia, awake or asleep 24/7.

Edited by Anhedonia23, 02 February 2023 - 08:21 AM.

[Meggo]

If you are never able to feel good while doing anything whatsoever, then one thing you could try would be Buddhist Jhana meditation, which is basically training yourself to activate the reward system through a biofeedback loop. This will take a long time though. Two authors that have written manuals on how to exactly achieve that are Leigh Brasington and Culadasa John Yates. 

The waking up thin could be related to sleep apnea, which could cause all kinds of other problems. Easy to check through an infrared oxymeter which measures O2 over night and saves it as a graph or you could film yourself with an infrared camera, to see if you are struggling for breath.

 

Edited by Meggo, 02 February 2023 - 05:32 PM.

[ambivalent]

Do you wake up choking/gasping - that would be sleep apnea

 

I'll take a shot at candida. 

 

https://www.thecandi...de-and-candida/

 

candida overgrowth could make you feel this way in my expereince, and cause sleep apnea. I am certain I had it for decades.

 

I took several grams of fisetin one night mixed with olive oil and my apnea went as well as chronic histamine cough, which I believe was induced by candida - as well as my allergy to red wine. Have a look around, but I am quite certain candida can lead to a loss of pleasure. 

 

Flavanoids are antifungal -  but are not that bioavailable, so needs to be added to olive oil and maybe lecithin - I had 3 grams. 

[Anhedonia23]

If you are never able to feel good while doing anything whatsoever, then one thing you could try would be Buddhist Jhana meditation, which is basically training yourself to activate the reward system through a biofeedback loop. This will take a long time though. Two authors that have written manuals on how to exactly achieve that are Leigh Brasington and Culadasa John Yates. 

The waking up thin could be related to sleep apnea, which could cause all kinds of other problems. Easy to check through an infrared oxymeter which measures O2 over night and saves it as a graph or you could film yourself with an infrared camera, to see if you are struggling for breath.

Hey, yes I’ve already been trying different sort of meditation and breathing techniques (pranayama, whim hof method, shamanic breathing, kundalini etc…), and somthing that is supposed to be even more useful than this is Psylocibin, but this also didn’t worked. I’ve been doing brain exercice program, gratitude list, journaling etc… but no help or progress unfortunately here too. 
I also tought about sleep apnea at some point, but from what I read it’s not possible to develop this overnight, and I also recorded myself sleeping yes, but no particular sign of struggling with breath, and I don’t wake up gasping for air etc… so Removed that hypothesis. 
i know you are trying to help, and I’m not trying to dismiss everything you’ve mentioned since the beginning, but it’s just that the more i read about what I have, the more time passes, the more i try to find reason of imbalance in the brain or gut, or things of that nature, the more I realize what I have looks really like brain damage. I have seen absolutely zero windows in any area for nearly a year now , despite trying,  and everything led me to think or point towards this. But I guess I’m still writing on forum in hope than someone will have a magical cure. 

[Meggo]

Yes it seems to be a peculiar case with a quite specific presentation. Maybe you had a mini stroke while intoxicated, it is difficult to say, but I don't think your whole dopamine system is damaged, otherwise you would be katatonic. Search for a neurologist to make an MRT or even an fMRI to see what areas aren't being activated. I can only wish you luck!

Regarding meditation, the method i recommended will lead to results if you follow it for 2-3 hours per day after a year or so, it is not similar to the techniques you mentioned. Maybe download one of the books on libgen (The mind illuminated is very structured) and take a look inside.

Edited by Meggo, 04 February 2023 - 06:17 AM.

[ambivalent]

A review of FMT studies on symptoms of psychiatric disorders:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7294648/

 

anhedonia is covered preclincally.

[Anhedonia23]

Yes it seems to be a peculiar case with a quite specific presentation. Maybe you had a mini stroke while intoxicated, it is difficult to say, but I don't think your whole dopamine system is damaged, otherwise you would be katatonic. Search for a neurologist to make an MRT or even an fMRI to see what areas aren't being activated. I can only wish you luck!

Regarding meditation, the method i recommended will lead to results if you follow it for 2-3 hours per day after a year or so, it is not similar to the techniques you mentioned. Maybe download one of the books on libgen (The mind illuminated is very structured) and take a look inside.

Yes, I only found 1 case like me, and the person is still struggling 3years later. I tend to believe that yes something like a mini strokes happened, unfortunately an fmri or mrt I can’t get one, it is only for research purposes and neurologist won’t let me do one here. Thx for the encouragement, I think I’ve reach the end, I don’t have energy no more to fight this thing, it’s likely permanent because no substances affect me anymore or can make me high if I try out of curiosity, and dreams are the same as when I’m awake, awful and pleasureless. I can’t keep doing meditation for a years, like my condition as worsen so much recently, i have days where I just lay down trying to get some sleep, or I just stare at the wall thinking about how my life was magical and so cool before this night. I don’t think any meds or supplement can cure this severe anhedonia because of what I mentioned earlier. If it was an imbalance I would have had windows in a years, or at least slight improvement, but I’ve got none. And I’ve already done a brain retraining program for anhedonia specifically which was my last hope :(

so yeah, I think I’m giving up now, if only a magical pill or a time machines could exist.
 

[Meggo]

Maybe you could e.g. try something like MDMA and if it manages to give you euphoria you would know that not everything is lost and then you can decide how to proceed from there. 

[Anhedonia23]

Maybe you could e.g. try something like MDMA and if it manages to give you euphoria you would know that not everything is lost and then you can decide how to proceed from there. 

Yeah I tought more about opioid, since they directly target the reward system, but idk how to get some. Docotors won’t prescribe me some, and on the street I’m afraid of getting some fentanyl instead or something that can end up bad. But I would be okay to try this, like you said at least I would be sure. But if it doesn’t work, then idk what to do :(

[Meggo]

I think you are searching more for something like a dopamine rush MDMA and GHB/ GBL should give you what you are searching for. Opioids will just relax you and heal some deeply held existential anxieties for a while (which make them so addictive), but if you want to go down that route, the easiest way would be to get a prescription for tianeptine which is a mu receptor agonist and which will also increase Dopamine Receptor density. Maybe it is even legal to get the sulfate form (very cheap and is active all day long) in your country? But there are people who get addicted even on tianeptine or loose a limb if the try to inject it (never inject it), so be careful. 

I would still recommend Jhana Meditation, because I was in a similar situation (more severe chronic depression than pure anhedonia) and the only thing that cured it was 3 hours of meditation - not Jhana but Vipassana according to Mahasi Sayadaw, which I don't recommend to people because it can make them even more depressed in the beginning - per day for about 2 years. But I understand that this is way too much for most people with any kind of mental illness. They just don't have the discipline or even the expectation that anything they do could every change anything (learned helplessness). 

Another option for diagnosis would be some kind of Quantitative EEG, especially Loreta should show you similarly to an fMRI what could be wrong with your brain.

[Anhedonia23]

I think you are searching more for something like a dopamine rush MDMA and GHB/ GBL should give you what you are searching for. Opioids will just relax you and heal some deeply held existential anxieties for a while (which make them so addictive), but if you want to go down that route, the easiest way would be to get a prescription for tianeptine which is a mu receptor agonist and which will also increase Dopamine Receptor density. Maybe it is even legal to get the sulfate form (very cheap and is active all day long) in your country? But there are people who get addicted even on tianeptine or loose a limb if the try to inject it (never inject it), so be careful. 

I would still recommend Jhana Meditation, because I was in a similar situation (more severe chronic depression than pure anhedonia) and the only thing that cured it was 3 hours of meditation - not Jhana but Vipassana according to Mahasi Sayadaw, which I don't recommend to people because it can make them even more depressed in the beginning - per day for about 2 years. But I understand that this is way too much for most people with any kind of mental illness. They just don't have the discipline or even the expectation that anything they do could every change anything (learned helplessness). 

Another option for diagnosis would be some kind of Quantitative EEG, especially Loreta should show you similarly to an fMRI what could be wrong with your brain.

Okay. Thank you a lot of all those detailed info. Dopamine is linked to wanting more something, rather than pleasure itself. Yes opioid system and dopamine one are linked, but it’s primarily the opioid and endorphins things that is related to the sense of reward. Why is tianeptine so much dangerous? I mean losing a limb, wow how is that possible from just injecting some opioid substances? Are the effect of tianeptine direct or did I need to wait for a week or 2 like some AD?

the meditation thing is still a good idea, I mean it can help to stay calm, but doing it for a year a 2 before seing any progress, it’s just not sustainable I guess for someone with severe anhedonia. I mean, few thing are sustainable when you are anhedonic and get no response from anything.

[Meggo]

Okay. Thank you a lot of all those detailed info. Dopamine is linked to wanting more something, rather than pleasure itself. Yes opioid system and dopamine one are linked, but it’s primarily the opioid and endorphins things that is related to the sense of reward. Why is tianeptine so much dangerous? I mean losing a limb, wow how is that possible from just injecting some opioid substances? Are the effect of tianeptine direct or did I need to wait for a week or 2 like some AD?

the meditation thing is still a good idea, I mean it can help to stay calm, but doing it for a year a 2 before seing any progress, it’s just not sustainable I guess for someone with severe anhedonia. I mean, few thing are sustainable when you are anhedonic and get no response from anything.

 

Regarding Dopamine vs. Opiates (and Meditation):

- Dopamine (which is high in the Jhanas 1+2 (these are absorptive states of concentration)): feels like a strong feeling of anticipation, wanting, motivation, wakefulness and energy which can be felt in the body. It is what gives your life meaning and makes you focused on what you think is important (together with noradrenaline). 

- Endorphines (which is Jhana 3): makes you satisfied. stops your searching. you are content. It feels like post-coital bliss. You just want to lie there, while your body feels heavy or starts to dissolve into your suroundings. It also feels dissociative , but you don't care because you don't care about much in this state. When its strong you can really just lie there and do nothing else.

Jhana 4 = DMT / Psilocybin

 

 

Tianeptine can't be injected because it can't be dissolved properly, therefore creating thrombi in your blood vessels which lead to necrosis, so thats a no-no. The effect of oral application is weak but can still be felt and is an effective and non addictive antidepressant. 

The effects are both immediate (a weak opioid feeling and for some people an easier time to breath because it also works against asthma) and time dependent (anti stress functions and receptor modulation).

 

Regarding meditation: an easy way to get a head start is a 10 day Goenka vipassana course. It teaches both Concentration (Anapana) and a specific form of vipassana (Body Scan). Dhamma.org is the website were you can search for a course in your vicinity. It operates on donation, so you don't need to pay (nobody will ask you there, and they will actually be surprised if you donate something). The 10 day course means meditating about 12h per day, which is hard, but if you don't have problems like psychosis/ panic attacks, then the worst thing that can happen is boredom. A lot of people will have quite intense experiences between days 5-7, so this could be what you are searching for. 

[Anhedonia23]

Yes that’s exactly what I mean, and from your explanation the endorphins system seems definitely the one who is linked to my issue rather than dopamine. But wait, you said that the final stage of the Jhana is basically what you experience during psylocibin ? Because like I said in the original post I’ve already did psylocibin, a trip, and it did nothing, I mean it didn’t change anything I had very slight hallucination but that’s it, no bliss or euphoria. 

ok, i tought the tianeptine would have a stronger impact on the opioid system, but I guess that’s the only thing that at least touch the opioid system that I can maybe get prescribe.

 

[Meggo]

There are 4 additional Jhanas, wich are even more psychedelic then the fourth, because the body is gone in those jhanas and you have a pure experience of:

J5: infinite space

J6: infinite consciousness

J7:Nothingness

J8: neither perception nor non-perception

 

5-Meo-DMT would be an option if psylocibin was ineffective, especially if you used mushrooms, which have wildly varying amounts of psylocibin. Maybe you did't get enough. 

 

Another weak option to increase endorphin effects would be low dose naltrexone before sleep. It will lead to opiod-R upregulation during the day. You probably dont even need a prescription for that.

 

 

[rimpthegrimpler]

I felt this way for years after benzo withdrawal. Where you taking benzos at the time of the anhedonia starting?

 

Anyway, I cured most of my anhedonia and insomnia by killing a bacterial biofilm/parasite in my gut. I thought it was candida but the test came back negative for candida so it's either a parasite biofilm or bacterial biofilm. 

 

I started taking oregano oil, calamus root, proteolitic enzymes, organic apple cider vinegar, neem,  magnesium, betaine HCL, with a low sugar diet and i started to notice biofilms in my stool. The more biofilms I killed, the worse my anhedonia was.

 

My biofilms are almost completely gone now (i think) and I can feel more pleasure and i sleep way better. 

 

How does biofilms/parasites cause anhedonia? By blocking vitamin and mineral uptake in the gut.

They also release toxins like acetaldehyde that can cause anhedonia...

 

Also, the probiotic L. Plantarum is good for anhedonia too

 

Maybe you want to try this route?

Edited by rimpthegrimpler, 13 March 2023 - 10:51 PM.