119 replies to this topic

[YoungSchizo]

I agree I too would probably have to be very desperate before resorting to ECT. Right now I don't think I'm THAT treatment-resistant, I remain optimistic. I've been anxious person since teenager, and things got worse when resorting to things like Phenibut during adulthood. Psychedelics I guess could reveal something when it comes to the roots of my anxiety.

 

Low dose Naltrexone (LDN) is on ScienceGuy's list of safe and effective anxiolytics. I have 50 mg Naltrexone tablets, I wonder if there is a way to somehow split them to try LDN. There are also couple of other things in ScienceGuy's list that I haven't tried. I don't agree with his main idea that all GABAergics are bad, but he's done some good research on non-GABAergic anxiolytics.

 

Indeed, did you and your psychiatrist or therapist don't know what the roots of your anxiety is. You not only need to treat it with substances but also with psychology/therapy. If you don't assess this maybe it will indeed come up while under influence of psychedelics and therapy.

 

As you already know the psychiatry did me dirty, they labeled me paranoid schizophrenic with conspiracy delusions and locked me up inside my mind about a true story, I was not allowed therapy. Things I already knew 18 years ago revealed itself 17 years later while my current psychiatrist was taken my biography and gave me therapy, all those years I've been in pain and hell but I never been sick. I'm stronger then ever since therapy and finally I have a clear insight what the ingredients are for me to have a psychotic episode.  

 

Another thing you can try is CBD, drops I didn't notice much (maybe I was unfortunate of buying snake oil all the time) but with inhaling it it causes my mind to sort what's playing in my head but due to other cannabinoids in the buds you might feel a bit being under influence but without the anxiety THC would cause.

 

You seem to have a good relationship with your psychiatrist, why not just ask for LDN?

Edited by YoungSchizo, 10 June 2023 - 01:56 PM.

[gamesguru]

Low dose Naltrexone (LDN) is on ScienceGuy's list of safe and effective anxiolytics.

 

So is garum armoricum. I'd take him with a grain of salt.

 

CBD is nice. Acute treatment for anxiety, but not as effective as benzos obviously. Psychedelics can definitely give you a fresh perspective, but I don't know if they remove general anxiety that effectively. They can even leave you shaken up and more uncertain about the world.

 

It doesn't have to be all therapy too. You can supplement it with your own exercises, reading, and consumption of eye-opening podcasts. Anything that boosts your awareness or your range of skills is good.

[Galaxyshock]

I guess one can't just sweep the roots of anxiety under a rug and expect them to disappear. I was in a Dialectical Behavior Therapy group not that long ago, but individual therapy/psychology would probably be more effective. I tried CBD years ago, it was quite pleasant anxiolytic. Cannabinoidergic anxiolytics might just have the potential to be more effective and safe than GABAergics. I guess I could just ask for LDN but in my experience psychiatrists don't quite like patients telling them what to prescribe. 

[Daniel Cooper]

I'll fry my brain alright, to the point my amygdala drops off. Haha, yeah ECT is probably not the route I want to take. It was once suggested for me though and I know one person who had good results with ECT for depression. Haven't looked into rTMS, but I guess psychedelics are something worth considering. Isn't MDMA also given in therapeutic setting for things like PTSD?

 

There was a guy here on Longecity years ago that was trying to find a doctor that would do gamma knife on his brain targeting his amygdala - either destroying it outright or significantly ablating it and reducing it's size.

 

I always wondered what happened to him. I can't imagine a competent and ethical doctor that would do such a thing - what would be the implications of living without an amygdala? I'm guessing the thing does more than simply creating fear/anxiety.  

 

He had by all accounts a terrible anxiety issue. But I fear what he was looking for as a cure might have been worse than the disease.

[Galaxyshock]

There was a guy here on Longecity years ago that was trying to find a doctor that would do gamma knife on his brain targeting his amygdala - either destroying it outright or significantly ablating it and reducing it's size.

 

I always wondered what happened to him. I can't imagine a competent and ethical doctor that would do such a thing - what would be the implications of living without an amygdala? I'm guessing the thing does more than simply creating fear/anxiety.  

 

He had by all accounts a terrible anxiety issue. But I fear what he was looking for as a cure might have been worse than the disease.

 

Damn, I guess desperate situation can make one seek some crazy medical interventions.

 

There was another guy here on LongeCity that was taking up to 120 grams of Phenibut daily if I remember correctly.

 

Anyways, I ended up drinking a lot of beer during the weekend and that kinda ruined my withdrawal progress. I took 1 mg Lorazepam yesterday and another 1 mg today because I was feeling quite bad lol. I feel a lot better now, I'll just have to retry to withdraw and also cut out the alcohol. I am actually running out of Lorazepam but I should get another 30 tablets prescribed, which I want to make last a lot longer time than the ~40 days they usually last. Hopefully I learnt something from this mistake.

[gamesguru]

Sometimes I get mad at my high school friend who introduced me to marijuana. But then I realize, he saved me from alcohol.

[Galaxyshock]

Sometimes I get mad at my high school friend who introduced me to marijuana. But then I realize, he saved me from alcohol.

 

Sure, but cold beer on a summery day, it's nectar of the gods. 

[YoungSchizo]

Sure, but cold beer on a summery day, it's nectar of the gods. 

 

Did the same! Can't blame you for that sin, Amen!

[gamesguru]

Sure, but cold beer on a summery day, it's nectar of the gods. 

 

How much are you drinking? Moderation is key. Thankfully made it to my 30s without ever having been drunk or having had more than 3 drinks on one occasion.

[Daniel Cooper]

Sometimes I get mad at my high school friend who introduced me to marijuana. But then I realize, he saved me from alcohol.

 

Honest to god, alcohol isn't the worst drug for anxiolysis (it's not the best either and clearly has issues).

 

I think it's actually probably less dangerous than benzodiazepines for instance. 

 

The thing with alcohol is that for most people it's intake can be somewhat self limiting. You drink, the acetaldehyde starts to build up, at some point you become ill and start vomiting the stuff up. Now a really serious alcoholic can adapt to this to some extent (they adapt and metabolize acetaldehyde faster) and keep drinking beyond what most people can do.

 

Now you take a benzo on the other hand. Once you start to become tolerant you can just keep upping and upping the dose. If you're willing to go to street drugs or RCs, you can reach some really dizzying doses that you'd never reach the equivalent of in terms of alcohol. 

 

There's no doubt, some people become alcoholics and can have great difficulty stopping that drug. And if they manage to quit they can have withdrawal symptoms for quite awhile. But having known a few alcoholics that quit, I don't really hear the horror stories of people that are still suffering protracted withdrawal 4, 6, and 8 years later.

 

Ethanol is a really dirty drug. It affects so many receptor systems. Sometimes I wonder if the more targeted effects of some of these synthesized compounds actually make them more dangerous.

 

I will admit however that ethanol is much harder on the body in general. You're not going to blow out your liver on Xanax or Klonopin for instance.

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 12 June 2023 - 09:27 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

Honest to god, alcohol isn't the worst drug for anxiolysis (it's not the best either and clearly has issues).

 

I think it's actually probably less dangerous than benzodiazepines for instance. 

 

The thing with alcohol is that for most people it's intake can be somewhat self limiting. You drink, the acetaldehyde starts to build up, at some point you become ill and start vomiting the stuff up. Now a really serious alcoholic can adapt to this to some extent (they adapt and metabolize acetaldehyde faster) and keep drinking beyond what most people can do.

 

Now you take a benzo on the other hand. Once you start to become tolerant you can just keep upping and upping the dose. If you're willing to go to street drugs or RCs, you can reach some really dizzying doses that you'd never reach the equivalent of in terms of alcohol. 

 

There's no doubt, some people become alcoholics and can have great difficulty stopping that drug. And if they manage to quit they can have withdrawal symptoms for quite awhile. But having known a few alcoholics that quit, I don't really hear the horror stories of people that are still suffering protracted withdrawal 4, 6, and 8 years later.

 

Ethanol is a really dirty drug. It affects so many receptor systems. Sometimes I wonder if the more targeted effects of some of these synthesized compounds actually make them more dangerous.

 

I will admit however that ethanol is much harder on the body in general. You're not going to blow out your liver on Xanax or Klonopin for instance.

 

Some have good experience with THC, some have good experience with alcohol, some have good experience with benzo's or a combination with one or another. We're all wired differently.. Unfortunately like already said in this thread there has been no progress in psychopharmacology in the past decades so we're probably all ill to resort to something that's not save for any of us that's "over the counter" mentally or psychically. It's honestly a shame where technology is so advanced a human mind can't comprehend and yet the medical treatments are so far behind. 

[Galaxyshock]

How much are you drinking? Moderation is key. Thankfully made it to my 30s without ever having been drunk or having had more than 3 drinks on one occasion.

 

I aim for moderation but have the tendency to slip into a binge every now and then. I have had good times drinking with friends etc. but also bad times like the time period in 2016 when I was daily drinker and it was mostly alone.

 

I agree with Daniel Cooper. Phenibut is even worse when it comes to sneaky compounds that appear great but before you know it you're taking several grams a day just to function and brutal withdrawal symptoms are waiting around the corner.

 

Having trouble falling asleep again. It's 3.30 AM here, made some tea, maybe it'll calm me down a bit.

[gamesguru]

Honest to god, alcohol isn't the worst drug for anxiolysis (it's not the best either and clearly has issues).

 

It's not alcohol so much as me. Blame it on the ADHD, I would have taken addictively to alcohol were it not for marihuana.

 

But I must disagree about alcohol being healthy.

 

There's a lot of evidence that the first drug of choice (especially if introduced in early to mid-teenage years) can cause plasticity changes specific to that drug, and make it hard to change your "drug of choice" later in life as you will want to keep coming back to it.

 

I think the build up of acetylaldehyde is enough to dissuade me from heavy consumption. It's a noxious byproduct and highly antithetical to the life extensionist philosophy. Many of the mental deficits and physical complications are due to it, not alcohol.

 

I was told never to use a substance twice in one day or on back-to-back days, if I was unsure that it was absolutely safe or that I didn't mind becoming addicted to it. Alcohol can be fatal both in the acute intoxication and withdrawal stage, and has a higher lifetime addiction score than inhaled cannabis. It has far fewer (if any) accepted medical uses and far more associations with compromised function. It is linked to diabetes, for example, and dementia.

 

Of course you can find worse substances. MPTP will wipe out 99% of your motor dopamine neurons in one go. But that doesn't make alcohol seem sensible in my perspective. It's nothing but a vestige of tribal society. Far healthier social lubricants will replace it in the future.

 

I enjoy alcohol in micro-doses, a shot glass of 20% liquor a few nights a week. Or socially when I go out, 2-3 beers on a Saturday. But I personally wouldn't  let it progress beyond that. A binge is likely to turn into another, and even if it doesn't progress to full-blown abuse, still sets a bad pattern.

[Galaxyshock]

It's not alcohol so much as me. Blame it on the ADHD, I would have taken addictively to alcohol were it not for marihuana.

 

But I must disagree about alcohol being healthy.

 

There's a lot of evidence that the first drug of choice (especially if introduced in early to mid-teenage years) can cause plasticity changes specific to that drug, and make it hard to change your "drug of choice" later in life as you will want to keep coming back to it.

 

I think the build up of acetylaldehyde is enough to dissuade me from heavy consumption. It's a noxious byproduct and highly antithetical to the life extensionist philosophy. Many of the mental deficits and physical complications are due to it, not alcohol.

 

I was told never to use a substance twice in one day or on back-to-back days, if I was unsure that it was absolutely safe or that I didn't mind becoming addicted to it. Alcohol can be fatal both in the acute intoxication and withdrawal stage, and has a higher lifetime addiction score than inhaled cannabis. It has far fewer (if any) accepted medical uses and far more associations with compromised function. It is linked to diabetes, for example, and dementia.

 

Of course you can find worse substances. MPTP will wipe out 99% of your motor dopamine neurons in one go. But that doesn't make alcohol seem sensible in my perspective. It's nothing but a vestige of tribal society. Far healthier social lubricants will replace it in the future.

 

I enjoy alcohol in micro-doses, a shot glass of 20% liquor a few nights a week. Or socially when I go out, 2-3 beers on a Saturday. But I personally wouldn't  let it progress beyond that. A binge is likely to turn into another, and even if it doesn't progress to full-blown abuse, still sets a bad pattern.

 

True, alcohol has no real medical uses. Except well in the past like being part of Brompton cocktail 

 

I wish Kava bars would take over and reduce the harm alcohol has on society. But I guess it's a pipe dream.

 

You're right binge drinking easily becomes a habit. I used to go out drinking pretty much every weekend when I was younger. These days, being in my 30s, I rather enjoy my beer on my balcony, after sauna or so. 

 

It's honestly a shame where technology is so advanced a human mind can't comprehend and yet the medical treatments are so far behind.

 

 

Back in the 70s they predicted that by now we should have meds that make people feel happy all the time. Turns out it isn't so simple

[YoungSchizo]

 

 

 

Back in the 70s they predicted that by now we should have meds that make people feel happy all the time. Turns out it isn't so simple

 

Elon Musk (don't blame me if you hate that guy) is on right path with scientific projects to use his mind reading project to read people's mind. This can have a major effect into mental health science. AI projects I don't use and if I use it would probably provoke mental issues, but if Elon uses this also for mental health there will be a revolution in mental health science.

[gamesguru]

True, alcohol has no real medical uses. Except well in the past like being part of Brompton cocktail 

 

I wish Kava bars would take over and reduce the harm alcohol has on society. But I guess it's a pipe dream.

 

You're right binge drinking easily becomes a habit. I used to go out drinking pretty much every weekend when I was younger. These days, being in my 30s, I rather enjoy my beer on my balcony, after sauna or so. 

 

 

Back in the 70s they predicted that by now we should have meds that make people feel happy all the time. Turns out it isn't so simple

 

The problem is even someone like me, who scientifically advocates against the regular use of alcohol, would still personally object to any sudden prohibition. I do enjoy the atmosphere and I wouldn't know what humanity would immediately replace it with.

 

It will take some radical social or political event to get things started. If one country doesn't pull it off and say to the rest, "look at me now, I am better without the alcohol after all" and start a cascade of dominoes, then it may come due to a scarcity of materials. If our march continues unfettered, we will mine essential elements into extinction (zinc, lithium, chromium) and no longer be able to sustain industrial society as we know it, thus prompting a reconsideration of essential commerce and a radical rationing of resources. Clandestine production would be reduced to food scraps fermented in clay pots and its use may be frowned upon widely as in the movie Equilibrium.

 

I rather enjoy a vaped bowl of flower after a good sauna. But lately have been sipping a fancy Mastika liquor in tiny amounts too.

 

A pill that makes you happy all the time is absurd, life is meant to be stressful at points. But depending on your phenotype you can choose between prozac, alcohol, or marijuana. I'm sure we could rig something up which injects an ecstasy derivative, perhaps MDAI, for the remainder of your life. Not the healthiest i gotta assume, but you'd technically be happy. That's progress on the 70s, when they used to prescribe pentobarbital

[Galaxyshock]

A pill that makes you happy all the time is absurd, life is meant to be stressful at points. But depending on your phenotype you can choose between prozac, alcohol, or marijuana. I'm sure we could rig something up which injects an ecstasy derivative, perhaps MDAI, for the remainder of your life. Not the healthiest i gotta assume, but you'd technically be happy. That's progress on the 70s, when they used to prescribe pentobarbital

 

I agree I think it's somewhat against human nature to feel happy all the time. There are depressed people given cocktails of antidepressants with diminishing results. Of course the circumstances play big part in that, but even if we were given utopian society, would we start to sort of reject it. Like in the movie Matrix where the initial matrix was "the perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from". I guess we're getting into philosophical side of things now. But perhaps this also extends to anxiety treatment: is it possible to rig the brain to never feel anxiety again? I guess there was that case of a woman with mutation in FAAH gene who was immune to anxiety, but what are the consequenses of that? In a forum where people aim for unlimited lifespans, I think these questions are increasingly relevant.

[Galaxyshock]

 Clandestine production would be reduced to food scraps fermented in clay pots and its use may be frowned upon widely as in the movie Equilibrium.

 

Is it a good movie? I may want to watch it. I like different scifi movies that make you think.

 

The Man from Earth (2007) is a movie I recommend for everyone on LongeCity, it's very interesting.

[gamesguru]

Is it a good movie? I may want to watch it. I like different scifi movies that make you think.

 

The Man from Earth (2007) is a movie I recommend for everyone on LongeCity, it's very interesting.

 

I give it 5/10. Very cheesy plot. A unique message, but poorly executed. Like a cheap fusion of Sin City and Gattaca, it definitely has niche appeal. But the plot, level of suspense, and special effects are laughably weak compared to something like "The Matrix".

 

I will give it a watch.

 

As for books, I can recommend "The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect". Written by a former computer scientist, it gives a comprehensive although fictitious view into future post-singularity societies while remaining fairly unbiased and not leaning toward utopian nor dystopian tales, and being good follow-up material for anyone familiar with the Orwellian "1984".

 

I think the lady with the FAAH mutation could also experience adverse effects associated with her anxiolytic phenotype. Does she experience fear in dangerous situations? Does she have any memory impairments (difficulties remembering stressful or life-threatening experiences)?

 

The endocannabinoid system is designed to help filter out irrelevant details (the color of the cars on your drive to work, what you ate for lunch 3 days and 2 weeks ago, etc). Without it we would always be overwriting old memories with a useless abundance of new ones. If it is overactive, we can have the opposite issue of not remembering enough.

 

While on the subject of FAAH, I must mention Salvia. Apparently it decreases FAAH activity (in some brain areas).

 

Decreased FAAH activity after salvinorin A, was only observed in amygdala, which is a brain region linked with the effects of cannabinoids on emotionally relevant behaviours (Katona et al., 2001) and where anatomical studies have reported the presence of κ-opioid receptors (Mansour et al., 1994).

 

CBD also has interesting effects on FAAH, through mRNA expression.

 

 

CBD decreased FAAH and increased p-GSK3β expression in stressed animals, which was also attenuated by AM630. These results indicate that CBD prevents the behavioral effects caused by CUS probably due to a facilitation of endocannabinoid neurotransmission and consequent CB₁/CB₂ receptors activation, which could recruit intracellular/synaptic proteins involved in neurogenesis and dendritic remodeling.

 

Apparently arachidonoyl-serotonin is used in studies as a model FAAH inhibitor, and there are other proprietary ones on the market. I wouldn't trust them though to solve any disease. Probably cause unwanted side effects too, like tweaking any major system.

[Galaxyshock]

I think the lady with the FAAH mutation could also experience adverse effects associated with her anxiolytic phenotype. Does she experience fear in dangerous situations? Does she have any memory impairments (difficulties remembering stressful or life-threatening experiences)?

 

Precisely. I decided to read the whole article of her case and it appears that she indeed doesn't experience fear in dangerous situations like being in a car accident. She also says that she's "always forgetting things" and is insensitive to pain. I guess the mutation is sort of a blessing but also has its downsides.

 

Here's the article to anyone who's curious:

https://www.theguard...an-feel-no-pain

 

 

 

Apparently arachidonoyl-serotonin is used in studies as a model FAAH inhibitor, and there are other proprietary ones on the market. I wouldn't trust them though to solve any disease. Probably cause unwanted side effects too, like tweaking any major system.

 

I believe there are a few natural FAAH inhibitors. Maca and Lavender that I know of at least. Surely weaker than pharmaceuticals, but possibly effective? Perhaps combining a few herbals that affect the endocannabinoid system could be something I should give a shot. CBD was pretty effective but it's expensive and I'm not sure if it's even legal anymore here. I guess in Finland they don't want you to take care of year mental health unless it's from something that pharmaceutical companies produce. 

[gamesguru]

Do not ascribe to malice what may be explained by incompetence. They are likely just overly cautious and not medically competent enough to recognize the errors and extremism of their ways.

 

Has anyone tried maca or lavendar and had a life-changing experience? Has that sort of magic happened more than once? Did they keep taking it the rest of their lives, or were they cured immediately? Afaik they have not, but ymmv as usual in biology.

[Galaxyshock]

Yeah I'm sure they have good intentions. It's just frustrating to someone like me who prefers these natural substances that are harmless in practice.

 

Surely Maca or Lavender won't be life-changing. But if they offer something like 30 % relief from anxiety, maybe they can be life-saving by making me stay away from benzos, alcohol and Phenibut. My anxiety isn't as bad as it was back in 2017 or so, when I resorted to taking Phenibut daily. So 30 % anxiety reduction could be enough to work with, especially since my current stack is already quite helpful.

 

I've posted this study before on some other thread, but it's very relevant here too. Lavender oil preparation was comparable to Lorazepam in treating GAD:

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/19962288/

 

 

I give it 5/10. Very cheesy plot. A unique message, but poorly executed. Like a cheap fusion of Sin City and Gattaca, it definitely has niche appeal. But the plot, level of suspense, and special effects are laughably weak compared to something like "The Matrix".

 

I will give it a watch.

 

As for books, I can recommend "The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect". Written by a former computer scientist, it gives a comprehensive although fictitious view into future post-singularity societies while remaining fairly unbiased and not leaning toward utopian nor dystopian tales, and being good follow-up material for anyone familiar with the Orwellian "1984".

 

 

Alright I might still watch it out of curiosity 

 

That book sounds very Interesting, I'll have to check the availability.

[gamesguru]

A lot of these they may view as a threat to the user. Something like Kava they thought people are drinking it liberally and it's bad for the liver. Salvia won't cause pharmacological fatalities, but may cause behavioral fatalities (e.g. falling and hitting head). Technically most governments are opposed to lesser victimless crimes, but inertia prevents any wide scale legalization from happening rapidly.

 

Lavender isn't very potent (needed in larger doses), it's not something the body needs already (like magnsium), it might cause tolerance (and other side effects), has limited effectiveness, and doesn't have that neutral / subtle aspect I like in adaptogens and herbs. I personally wouldn't go for it. But individuality and the placebo effect are big factors... if you don't like a particular approach, it's unlikely being forced or told to adhere to it would affect you favorably (even if it were an objectively favorable alternative). It's more likely that a treatment you have a fond emotional attitude toward would be more tolerable (even if research is lacking).

[Galaxyshock]

True, back in psych ward years ago I asked for anxiolytic to make my mind shut down. All they could offer was Olanzapine 5 mg and I told them I might aswell take placebo pill. So the nurse said well I can give you calcium tablet, and I answered it doesn't quite work like that. 

 

Lavender, well I think I might give it a further research. I actually had Lavender essential oil yeaaars ago, the scent itself is anxiolytic as in aromatherapy.

 

Wasn't it so with Kava that there were bad quality products that harmed the liver. Because they contained leaf parts of the herb which are liver toxic. In the Polynesian islands they strictly use only the root parts of Kava because of that.

[YoungSchizo]

True, back in psych ward years ago I asked for anxiolytic to make my mind shut down. All they could offer was Olanzapine 5 mg and I told them I might aswell take placebo pill. So the nurse said well I can give you calcium tablet, and I answered it doesn't quite work like that. 

 

 

 

If a evil scientist want a zombie apocalypse they should put Zyprexa in our drinkwater 

[gamesguru]

Yeah one of the studies with lavender injections, they said the mice might be responding to the scent of the oil diffusing off their breath.

 

There needs to be some 3rd party verification or consumer awareness. People shouldn't be consuming the leaves apparently.

 

Even the roots can be dangerous in combination with some medications. Who knows what is right after all, society isn't perfect but we're lucky to be here at all. At the end of the day we're insignificant, tribal beings on a tiny rock spiraling toward a big ball of burning gas.

 

Funny that olanzapine and thorazine are often quoted remedies to a bad acid trip, obviously along with benzos. They must basically dull the faculties and senses.

Edited by gamesguru, 16 June 2023 - 07:00 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

If a evil scientist want a zombie apocalypse they should put Zyprexa in our drinkwater 

 

Haha, that would indeed produce a mass of living-dead. Give them high-dose of Clozapine and they will be drooling too. Honestly it scares me that in Finland they prescribe anti-psychotics for anxiety and sleep problems. We are supposed to be "the happiest country on earth" yet there are like 10% of population here on psych meds.

[Galaxyshock]

Yeah one of the studies with lavender injections, they said the mice might be responding to the scent of the oil diffusing off their breath.

 

There needs to be some 3rd party verification or consumer awareness. People shouldn't be consuming the leaves apparently.

 

Even the roots can be dangerous in combination with some medications. Who knows what is right after all, society isn't perfect but we're lucky to be here at all. At the end of the day we're insignificant, tribal beings on a tiny rock spiraling toward a big ball of burning gas.

 

Funny that olanzapine and thorazine are often quoted remedies to a bad acid trip, obviously along with benzos. They must basically dull the faculties and senses.

 

Indeed we're talking monkeys on a rock in space 

 

What continues to fascinate me is the fact that nature offers us broad range of therapeutic herbs. With Ayahuasca the tribal people basically said the plants told them the combination to make the DMT active for psychedelic experience. You mentioned about live-changing experiences, I guess psychedelics like Ayahuasca could provide that. I think psychedelic experience is indeed on my list of things to try during my lifetime.

[gamesguru]

Yes and unfortunately some of these plants have become so obscure due to the reign of pharmaceutical medicine. For example, I wanted to try stepholidine because I've never tried dopamine antagonists. But you cannot find information about how much alkaloid is typically in the plant, it's hard to find Stephania plants for sale, and lab synths are typically outrageously expensive.

 

I think some of these combinations people were bound to experiment with. Prehistoric shamans were likely bored out of their mind and driven to endlessly classify and group plants by their leaves, taste, effects, etc. Many DMT containing plants in the Amazon. They might not have had knowledge of modern pharmacology, but once they realized the combination, that's the kind of tribal knowledge that gets passed down and isn't easily lost.

[YoungSchizo]

Haha, that would indeed produce a mass of living-dead. Give them high-dose of Clozapine and they will be drooling too. Honestly it scares me that in Finland they prescribe anti-psychotics for anxiety and sleep problems. We are supposed to be "the happiest country on earth" yet there are like 10% of population here on psych meds.

 

haha indeed! That 10% probably live in urban big city's. Like already known in the mainland all over the world people don't even need psych meds, they have nature (peace). The Scandinavian countries are always in the top of happiest people in the world, I guess it's due a working social economic situation and lots of nature in such big countries without overpopulation.