55 replies to this topic

[gamesguru]

Just pointing out the growing body of evidence also between herpesvirus and Alzheimer's.

 

CMV is another one that takes its toll.

 

Impact of CMV upon immune aging: facts and fiction
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6635032/

 

Aging is accompanied by significant defects in immunity and compromised responses to new, previously unencountered microbial pathogens. Most humans carry several persistent or latent viruses as they age, interacting with the host immune systems for years. In that context maybe the most studied persistent virus is Cytomegalovirus, infamous for its ability to recruit very large T cell responses which increase with age and to simultaneously evade elimination by the immune system. Here we will address how lifelong CMV infection and the immunological burden of its control might affect immune reactivity and health of the host over time.

 

[Hip]

Just pointing out the growing body of evidence also between herpesvirus and Alzheimer's.

 

Yes, there was a paper published last week which found that those who had been given varicella zoster virus vaccinations had a 20% reduced risk of developing dementia. 

 

This suggests that varicella zoster virus (the herpes family virus which causes chickenpox and shingles) is playing a causal role in dementia. 

 

There is also increasing evidence that herpes simplex virus may cause Alzheimer's.

[Harkijn]

My compliments to all here. This thread is lively as well as well informed, which you  sadly don't see very often on Longecity anymore nowadays.

[Daniel Cooper]

Yes, there was a paper published last week which found that those who had been given varicella zoster virus vaccinations had a 20% reduced risk of developing dementia. 

 

This suggests that varicella zoster virus (the herpes family virus which causes chickenpox and shingles) is playing a causal role in dementia. 

 

There is also increasing evidence that herpes simplex virus may cause Alzheimer's.

 

You have to be careful in drawing conclusions like that.

 

People that get the shingles vaccine are probably:

 

1.) More health conscious and take better care of themselves in general. The guy pounding cheeseburgers into his mouth at the local McDonald's is probably a good bit less likely to get the shingles (or any) vaccine.

 

2.) More likely to be higher up on the socioeconomic ladder. These people generally tend to have better health (lower BMI, less likely to smoke, less likely to take illicit drugs, more likely to exercise, etc. etc.)

 

It could be that the varicella zoster virus has something to do with Alzheimer's. There was actually a line of research maybe 10-15 years ago that Herpes Simplex was involved in Alzheimer's. But, it could also be that people that get the varicella zoster vaccine are just different than the general population and those differences contribute to a lower incidence of Alzheimer's.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 15 June 2023 - 02:40 PM.

[Hip]

You have to be careful in drawing conclusions like that.

 

People that get the shingles vaccine are probably:

 

1.) More health conscious and take better care of themselves in general. The guy pounding cheeseburgers into his mouth at the local McDonald's is probably a good bit less likely to get the shingles (or any) vaccine.

 

2.) More likely to be higher up on the socioeconomic ladder. These people generally tend to have better health (lower BMI, less likely to smoke, less likely to take illicit drugs, more likely to exercise, etc. etc.)

 

It could be that the varicella zoster virus has something to do with Alzheimer's. There was actually a line of research maybe 10-15 years ago that Herpes Simplex was involved in Alzheimer's. But, it could also be that people that get the varicella zoster vaccine are just different than the general population and those differences contribute to a lower incidence of Alzheimer's.

 

Normally yes you have to be careful with conclusions like that. But in this case, if you read the what a study author wrote on Twitter, they are saying that they had perfect epidemiological data for this study, and that their study provides causal evidence. This is because:

 

In Wales starting in Sept 2013, the shingles vaccine was rolled out using an exact DOB cutoff. Those born on or after Sept 2 1933 were eligible, while those born earlier weren’t and remained ineligible for life.

[gamesguru]

People that get the shingles vaccine are probably:

 

1.) More health conscious and take better care of themselves in general. The guy pounding cheeseburgers into his mouth at the local McDonald's is probably a good bit less likely to get the shingles (or any) vaccine.

 

2.) More likely to be higher up on the socioeconomic ladder. These people generally tend to have better health (lower BMI, less likely to smoke, less likely to take illicit drugs, more likely to exercise, etc. etc.)

 

My grandpa would be an exception to this. He's 87, but smokes, drinks, has had full dentures since age 30. He eats a fatty, sugary diet, and by my evaluation, it's a miracle he's alive (though I don't know for how much longer). He's a retired carpenter who lives in a small, run-down house in a rural town, and has 1 barely functioning car for the household. He has never been high on the socioeconomic ladder, I would place him near the bottom. But he would do anything his doctor recommends.

 

I think the opposite trend could be just as significant.

 

People who neglect their diet are often the same ones seeking an easy "magic pill" solution. These kinds of people would take a diet pill even if the risks were unknown. They have a lot of trust in doctors, and very little in themselves. They will definitely take blood pressure and cholesterol lowering medicines (and may therefore extend their life).

 

My grandpa got the shingles vaccine due to flare up symptoms, and a doctor's recommendation, not because he was especially health conscious or high up on the socioeconomic ladder.

 

A lot of times people who are very healthy are paradoxically the ones afraid of or avoiding the doctors. Fueled by their anxiety, distrust of others, and sometimes sheer stubbornness they often take health into their own hands.

 

Bias is nothing but the liberal use of reasoning to justify existing beliefs. I see trends of that in your thinking, and it's something to watch out for. We can't dissuade a growing body of evidence with circumstantial claims of selection bias.

 

 

That preliminary line of research "10-15 years ago" has blossomed into a regular army of researchers investigating the connection between Herpes and Alzheimer's. It's a current line of research, you can type some basic queries into Google Scholar to see trends.

 

No one is claiming with 100% confidence the relationship is causal. We are claiming an association. Perhaps immunologic dysautonomia is a symptom rather than a cause of Alzheimer's. (Association doesn't imply causation). And we are saying the causal link is likely strong enough to justify vaccination in susceptible individuals or those with a family history of dementia, and that opposition to this idea is not supported by the evidence.

Edited by gamesguru, 15 June 2023 - 07:01 PM.

[gamesguru]

Symptoms of Lewy Body Dementia Induced by Herpes Zoster Encephalitis
https://practicalneu...er-encephalitis

 

 

And from this study...

 

Varicella-Zoster Virus Meningitis and Encephalitis: An Understated Cause of Central Nervous System Infections
https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33364107/

 

There was a reduction in neurological morbidity with antiviral therapy. Nonetheless, both the incidence and the morbidity of CNS VZV infection are expected to be diminished by varicella and herpes zoster vaccination.

 

 

I'm definitely fascinated with the immune aspects of aging. Seems to be a major weak link later in life. And we know it can affect other organs in the case of cancer cells and evading detection. "Immunotherapy is the use of medicines to boost a person's own immune system to recognize and destroy cancer cells more effectively."

 

And we already know elderly people are far more likely to die of pneumonia or infection. Reversing this decline is the tricky thing.

 

An aged immune system drives senescence and ageing of solid organs
https://www.nature.c...586-021-03547-7

[hplus]

Yes, there was a paper published last week which found that those who had been given varicella zoster virus vaccinations had a 20% reduced risk of developing dementia. 

 

This suggests that varicella zoster virus (the herpes family virus which causes chickenpox and shingles) is playing a causal role in dementia. 

 

There is also increasing evidence that herpes simplex virus may cause Alzheimer's.

Have you come across any cases of Alzheimer's disease in 25-year-old individuals infected with herpes simplex virus, which affects approximately two-thirds of the population?

[Hip]

Have you come across any cases of Alzheimer's disease in 25-year-old individuals infected with herpes simplex virus, which affects approximately two-thirds of the population?

 

You can get Alzheimer's when young, though it is rare.

 

But as explained earlier, the viral infections linked to chronic diseases and cancers are low-level, slow-burn, smouldering infections that take decades to cause sufficient cumulative damage to manifest as disease symptoms.

 

Are you familiar with the lifecycle of viruses, and how slow-burn latent infections and intracellular viral infections are different to fulminant acute infections?

 

 

 

Slow-burn persistent infections are different to the raging acute infections we get when we first catch a virus.

 

We all know what an acute viral infection is like, since we have all had colds, flus, sore throats, gastrointestinal infections with vomiting, etc. You often feel terrible when you have one of these acute infection, because there is massive amount of virus in the body, and the mother of all battles as the immune system races to create the right antibodies to combat the infection.

 

Once the antibodies are designed and created by the B-cells (which takes a few days), then you start to get on top of the acute infection, and your symptoms begin to resolve.

 

For persistent infections however, we don't normally notice any symptoms, because the viral activity is so minimal, the infection just smoulders away in the tissues at very low levels. This is why it takes the virus a long time to create the cumulative damage that leads to a disease. 

 

 

 

For example, heart valve disease is associated with a smouldering enterovirus infection of the valve tissues. Over many years, the connective tissue in these valves is slowly damaged, and eventually the heart is not able to pump blood efficiently. This then leads to symptoms such as episodes of breathlessness, due to insufficient oxygen being pumped around the body. But if you research into heart valve disease, you will find it is a very slow disease, people have if for decades, and it may only slowly progress. 

 

 

 

Another example is the link between breast cancer and bovine leukaemia virus. A large percentage of the population are found to have bovine leukaemia virus (BLV) in their breast tissue. The cow virus is thought to have passed into human populations around 10,000 years ago, during the agricultural revolution, when we started drinking the milk of other animals. BLV is routinely found in raw milk today, but not in pasteurised milk. So it is thought most likely that the virus passed into human populations thousands of years ago, and is now passed from human to human, rather than us getting it from cow milk. 

 

So many of of us have this bovine virus in our breast tissues. But it may take decades of quietly living in those breast tissues before it triggers a breast cancer.

Edited by Hip, 16 June 2023 - 02:03 PM.

[hplus]

You can get Alzheimer's when young, though it is rare.

 

But as explained earlier, the viral infections linked to chronic diseases and cancers are low-level, slow-burn, smouldering infections that take decades to cause sufficient cumulative damage to manifest as disease symptoms.

 

Are you familiar with the lifecycle of viruses, and how slow-burn latent infections and intracellular viral infections are different to fulminant acute infections?

 

 

 

Slow-burn persistent infections are different to the raging acute infections we get when we first catch a virus.

 

We all know what an acute viral infection is like, since we have all had colds, flus, sore throats, gastrointestinal infections with vomiting, etc. You often feel terrible when you have one of these acute infection, because there is massive amount of virus in the body, and the mother of all battles as the immune system races to create the right antibodies to combat the infection.

 

Once the antibodies are designed and created by the B-cells (which takes a few days), then you start to get on top of the acute infection, and your symptoms begin to resolve.

 

For persistent infections however, we don't normally notice any symptoms, because the viral activity is so minimal, the infection just smoulders away in the tissues at very low levels. This is why it takes the virus a long time to create the cumulative damage that leads to a disease. 

 

 

 

For example, heart valve disease is associated with a smouldering enterovirus infection of the valve tissues. Over many years, the connective tissue in these valves is slowly damaged, and eventually the heart is not able to pump blood efficiently. This then leads to symptoms such as episodes of breathlessness, due to insufficient oxygen being pumped around the body. But if you research into heart valve disease, you will find it is a very slow disease, people have if for decades, and it may only slowly progress. 

 

 

 

Another example is the link between breast cancer and bovine leukaemia virus. A large percentage of the population are found to have bovine leukaemia virus (BLV) in their breast tissue. The cow virus is thought to have passed into human populations around 10,000 years ago, during the agricultural revolution, when we started drinking the milk of other animals. BLV is routinely found in raw milk today, but not in pasteurised milk. So it is thought most likely that the virus passed into human populations thousands of years ago, and is now passed from human to human, rather than us getting it from cow milk. 

 

So many of of us have this bovine virus in our breast tissues. But it may take decades of quietly living in those breast tissues before it triggers a breast cancer.

There are such viruses, but the herpes simplex virus is not one of them. Typically, the virus strikes when the immune system is weakened, which is more common in older individuals.  

 

It seems like you may be seeking validation for your theory by interpreting evidence in a biased manner simply because you have significant knowledge about viruses. This reminds me of David Sinclair, who became fixated on Sirtuins early in his career. I would suggest exploring other research papers on aging that do not even mention pathogens, as this applies to most of them.

Edited by hplus, 16 June 2023 - 03:43 PM.

[gamesguru]

Unlike cars (Aubrey's favorite metaphor), where the molecules in the brakes do not affect the processes in the carburetor, essentially every molecule in a cell can interact with every other molecule. Therefore, repairing cell damage is far from trivial.

 

It was evident from the start that attempting to repair the damage caused by aging was a futile approach, which is why established bio scientists avoided delving into the topic. However, there has been a fundamental shift in our understanding since we now realize that aging is a programmed process. Therefore, it is now reasonable to argue that we do not need to comprehend the entire program in order to intervene.

 

Compare this to the program that runs this forum. When it comes to posting on this forum, you don't need to comprehend the forum software's code. Simply identify the appropriate form field to enter the text and the button to click to publish. You can trust this process for two reasons: you've done it many times before with consistent success (inductive reasoning) and you know that the developers who created the program wired the reply button to the publishing function (deductive reasoning).

 

This is exactly why researchers know that partial reprogramming resets the aging clock. The phenomenon has been observed numerous times and we know that these complex reset programs have been developed over billions of years of evolution. The key to unlocking this process is finding the correct transcription factors and knowing how to apply them. Although the mechanism behind these reset programs remains a mystery, their effectiveness is established.

 

 

I didn't say anything about epigentic aging and Aubrey de Grey.

 

Just pointing out the fact that you did, in the above quote. Wondering if you still stand by this seemingly optimistic belief, and if you can expound on it?

[hplus]

Just pointing out the fact that you did, in the above quote. Wondering if you still stand by this seemingly optimistic belief, and if you can expound on it?

Just replying again that I didn't make any connection between epigenetic aging and Aubrey de Grey. Please read my post carefully.

 

The optimistic belief is justified with regard to partial reprogramming, but not Aubrey's damage repair approach. I explained this in my post. 

[Hip]

There are such viruses, but the herpes simplex virus is not one of them. Typically, the virus strikes when the immune system is weakened, which is more common in older individuals.  

 

Yes it is. Herpes simplex can be a low-level infection which slowly spreads.

 

DNA viruses like herpes simplex use latency as their means of forming a persistent presence in the body, and these latent viruses strike when there is weakened immunity. They remain in a latent, semi-dormant state in cells, actively waiting for the host immunity to become run down (which could be due to stress, catching a cold, etc). When they sense a transient weakening in immune surveillance in the body, that's when they will reactivate from latency. 

 

This is how herpes simplex gets its name as a the "cold sore virus": the cold sore (which is viral reactivation from latency) appears around your lips when you get transient immune weakness during a cold. 

 

Each time a virus reactivates from latency, it goes around infecting more cells of your body. So in this way, it may slowly spread.

 

In the case of Alzheimer's, those who have the APOE4 genetic mutation are at risk of herpes simplex spreading into the brain, where it may slowly infect brain cells and cause Alzheimer's. The APOE4 gene facilitates herpes simplex entry into the brain tissues; herpes simplex is believed to enter the brain via the olfactory organs.

 

 

 

 

It seems like you may be seeking validation for your theory by interpreting evidence in a biased manner simply because you have significant knowledge about viruses. This reminds me of David Sinclair, who became fixated on Sirtuins early in his career. I would suggest exploring other research papers on aging that do not even mention pathogens, as this applies to most of them.

 

As mentioned, I see anti-ageing studies as pointless in practise, given that almost all of us will die of a chronic disease or cancer — which are conditions that have been linked to persistent viral, bacterial, fungal or protozoal infections. 

 

If you want to fight for a longer life, and a longer healthspan, you have to tackle the factors that are most likely going to prevent you from achieving your goals, which is disease and cancer, not the ageing process. 

 

Whatever causes diseases and cancers (and the pathogen theory of disease and cancer is just one hypothesis), that's what needs to be tackled first. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 17 June 2023 - 05:13 AM.

[Harkijn]

In the end there is no real reason to prioritize one approach above the other. Work is being done on both of them and that will ultimately produce results in conjunction.

[Mind]

 

 

So there can be decades of time lag between catching the pathogen, and the appearance of the disease. You can think of pathogen-caused chronic diseases as a very slow infectious disease, taken decades to manifest. This is another reason why chronic diseases will tend to appear later in life. 

 

I tend to think of it as the aging immune system fails later in life, that is why some of these chronic illnesses appear later in life. The root cause is immune system aging - not viruses. Trying to avoid all viruses all the time is doomed to failure. We should be focusing on the root cause.

[hplus]

Yes it is. Herpes simplex can be a low-level infection which slowly spreads.

 

DNA viruses like herpes simplex use latency as their means of forming a persistent presence in the body, and these latent viruses strike when there is weakened immunity. They remain in a latent, semi-dormant state in cells, actively waiting for the host immunity to become run down (which could be due to stress, catching a cold, etc). When they sense a transient weakening in immune surveillance in the body, that's when they will reactivate from latency. 

 

This is how herpes simplex gets its name as a the "cold sore virus": the cold sore (which is viral reactivation from latency) appears around your lips when you get transient immune weakness during a cold. 

 

Each time a virus reactivates from latency, it goes around infecting more cells of your body. So in this way, it may slowly spread.

 

In the case of Alzheimer's, those who have the APOE4 genetic mutation are at risk of herpes simplex spreading into the brain, where it may slowly infect brain cells and cause Alzheimer's. The APOE4 gene facilitates herpes simplex entry into the brain tissues; herpes simplex is believed to enter the brain via the olfactory organs.

 

As mentioned, I see anti-ageing studies as pointless in practise, given that almost all of us will die of a chronic disease or cancer — which are conditions that have been linked to persistent viral, bacterial, fungal or protozoal infections. 

 

If you want to fight for a longer life, and a longer healthspan, you have to tackle the factors that are most likely going to prevent you from achieving your goals, which is disease and cancer, not the ageing process. 

 

Whatever causes diseases and cancers (and the pathogen theory of disease and cancer is just one hypothesis), that's what needs to be tackled first. 

 

Do you have any evidence of herpes simplex spreading throughout the body in individuals with a healthy immune system? As far as I know, neither HSV-1 nor HSV-2 does this in people with a healthy immune system.

 

You are confusing cause and effect. The root cause of most pathogen-related diseases in the elderly is their aging immune system, rather than the pathogens themselves. This fact is supported by overwhelming evidence and leaves no room for debate.

 

You essentially support a variant of the damage theory of aging. According to your theory, instead of the wear and tear of metabolism, pathogens are causing the damage that leads to age-related diseases.

 

Belmonte's demonstration of partial reprogramming rejuvenating mice at a systemic level falsified all theories that accumulating damage of any sort causes age-related diseases. Accumulating damage caused by metabolism or pathogens is one of the many side effects of aging; it is not its cause.

 

According to your theory, most cells have already been infected in these chronologically old mice. So where did all the "smoldering viruses" go in these rejuvenated mice? What happened to all the damage that the pathogens caused?

 

Belmonte's experiments, which have been replicated multiple times, not only provided evidence that aging is programmed; Belmonte essentially proved that all age-related diseases are a result of this program. In my opinion, any theory of aging that cannot explain the effectiveness of partial reprogramming is no longer worth pursuing. Once partial reprogramming becomes safe for human use, a cure for all age-related diseases will be readily available. The era of aging being the leading cause of death will soon be history.

[gamesguru]

Do you have any evidence of herpes simplex spreading throughout the body in individuals with a healthy immune system? As far as I know, neither HSV-1 nor HSV-2 does this in people with a healthy immune system.

 

You haven't demonstrated these causes can be reversed anytime soon. Immune decline is an immensely tangled process. You can't claim to have it cured with "hand waving arguments".

 

Approach to recurrent Herpes Simplex Encephalitis in children
https://www.scienced...352646718300838

"In this review, we discuss the gene mutations that may predispose to recurrent HSE and the importance of early diagnosis and treatment."

 

 

It appears to be present in both healthy and unhealthy brain tissue.

 

Herpes simplex virus type 1 DNA is present in specific regions of brain from aged people with and without senile dementia of the Alzheimer type
https://pathsocjourn...path.1711670403

 

"detected the viral thymidine kinase gene in post-mortem brain from 14/21 cases of senile dementia of the Alzheimer type and 9/15 elderly normals. The temporal cortex and hippocampus were usually virus-positive; in contrast, the occipital cortex was virus-negative in 9/9 SDAT cases and 5/5 elderly normals. Temporal and frontal cortex from younger normals (five infants and five middle-aged) were negative. Thus, the presence of Herpes simplex virus type 1 DNA is a region-dependent feature of the aged brain."

 

 

Here's a tricky one. Not saying this is linked to anything in herpes. But as I stated earlier in the thread, curing biological mortality requires the solution of all fatal diseases. I don't think medicine is in position to solve this complicated childhood disease of the brain (on a cellular level), as well as the 70,000 other fatal diseases and all the complicated and nuanced aging phenomenon. It's not going to happen in the next few decades imo.

 

It's just proof of how wrong things can go, and how difficult our job of putting Humpty Dumpty back together is.

 

NCL Disorders: Frequent Causes of Childhood Dementia
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3943077/

"Dementia in children or young adults is most frequently caused by neuronal ceroidlipofuscinoses (NCL), a group of incurable lysosomal storage disorders linked by the accumulation of a characteristic intracellular storage material and progressive clinical deterioration, usually in combination with visual loss, epilepsy, and motor decline."

[gamesguru]

I tend to think of it as the aging immune system fails later in life, that is why some of these chronic illnesses appear later in life. The root cause is immune system aging - not viruses. Trying to avoid all viruses all the time is doomed to failure. We should be focusing on the root cause.

 

Some pathogens take a very long time (up to a decade) to complete their life cycle (e.g. HIV, lyme disease).

 

And it's over time that these insidious pathogens can wreak their havoc.

 

HIV and lyme disease remain difficult to treat. Vast, nauseating treatment cocktails are required to keep them in check (because complete elimination is still not possible). Hardly the golden image of a shining utopia. More like the crude workings of a technologically infantile society.

[Hip]

Do you have any evidence of herpes simplex spreading throughout the body in individuals with a healthy immune system? As far as I know, neither HSV-1 nor HSV-2 does this in people with a healthy immune system.

If you are talking about high-level acute infections of herpes simplex I and II, then this virus can certainly spread to other organs of the body: for example, the virus can enter the brain, and cause a severe acute brain infection (encephalitis).

 

In fact, herpes simplex encephalitis is one of the worst types of viral brain infection: even with antiviral treatment, 20% of people die, and those who survive may be left with serious brain damage. 

 

Herpes simplex can also spread to the lungs and liver as acute infections which requires antivirals. 

 

 

In terms of low-level "smouldering" infections, then Alzheimer's research has demonstrated that herpes simplex can live inside brain cells as a slow low-level infection, very slowly causing cumulative brain damage. HSV also resides latently in nerves such as the trigeminal ganglia (a nerve junction box for the face and jaw nerves).

 

Similarly the herpesvirus varicella zoster lives in the dorsal root ganglia of the spine, as well as in the trigeminal ganglia.

 

 

 

Do we really want these dozens of different viruses living within the organs and nerve apparatus of our body, where they can trigger damage and disease? Or should we start thinking about doing something about it?

 

Vaccinating against some of the worst viral and bacterial culprits is a start; the ones that are strongly linked to chronic disease and cancer. Progress is being made, with new vaccines developed and introduced every now and then. For example, there is now a cytomegalovirus vaccine, which targets this immune damaging herpesvirus. 

 

But most people, even in medical research areas, are not fully aware of the connection between pathogens and chronic disease. We should be innovating advanced new means of preventing and eradicating viral and bacterial infections linked to disease, but not a great deal of thought goes into this. Especially not in life extension research circles, as these people are not even aware of the pathogen-disease connection.

 

 

 

[hplus]

You haven't demonstrated these causes can be reversed anytime soon. Immune decline is an immensely tangled process. You can't claim to have it cured with "hand waving arguments".

Yes, I haven't demonstrated anything. But high-profile scientists such as Belmonte and Sinclair did. And they haven't demonstrated this might be possible sometime in the future; they have done it years ago. These mice experience rejuvenation in every aspect, leading to a significant increase in their lifespan, which means your smoldering viruses did not kill them for some reason.

 

Do you really believe Nobel Laureates such as Jennifer Doudna and Shinya Yamanaka, as well as geoscience superstars like Juan Carlos Belmonte and Steve Horvath, would be devoting their time to Altos Labs if this technology was based solely on "hand waving arguments"? 

 

 

Edited by hplus, 17 June 2023 - 06:25 PM.

[gamesguru]

I do not deny that the innovations of Yamanaka and others are significant. He won the nobel prize for his work on pluripotent stem cell induction.

 

It's certainly an interesting area of research, and ought to continue receiving funding as it could turn up new avenues.

 

However, what I dispute is that the discoveries mentioned mean we are close to the singularity or on the cusp of a biological revolution. He has yet to demonstrate true biological immortality in any species, let alone a large-sized mammal. And there are likely significant challenges and ethical concerns that need to be overcome in the coming decades or centuries.

 

Dr. David Sinclair, a renowned biologist and professor at Harvard Medical School, has made notable contributions to the field of aging research and has been at the forefront of studying potential ways to reverse aging and extend human lifespan. While his work has generated considerable excitement and media attention, it is important to temper expectations and recognize the limitations and uncertainties associated with his findings. Here are a few reasons why his research does not necessarily imply that we are on the verge of a biological revolution:

1. Limited evidence in humans: Most of Dr. Sinclair's research has been conducted on animal models, particularly mice and yeast. While these studies have provided valuable insights into the underlying mechanisms of aging, the translation of these findings to humans is not always straightforward. Biological processes and responses can vary significantly between species, and what works in mice may not necessarily work in humans.

2. Complexity of aging: Aging is an intricate biological process influenced by numerous factors, including genetics, lifestyle, environment, and chance. While Dr. Sinclair has identified certain molecules and pathways that seem to play a role in aging, fully understanding and manipulating these processes in a way that significantly extends human lifespan is an immensely complex task. It is unlikely that a single intervention or discovery will be the magic bullet to reverse aging comprehensively.

3. Long-term effects and side effects: Many of the potential interventions and therapies proposed by Dr. Sinclair and other researchers are still in the early stages of development and require extensive testing for safety and efficacy. It is essential to understand the long-term effects and potential side effects of any intervention before it can be widely implemented. Rigorous clinical trials involving human subjects are necessary to establish the safety and effectiveness of these approaches, which can take many years.

4. Ethical and societal implications: Even if interventions to reverse aging were proven effective and safe, their widespread implementation would present profound ethical and societal challenges. Questions related to access, affordability, equity, and the potential impact on population dynamics and social structures would need to be addressed. The practical and ethical considerations surrounding such interventions cannot be overlooked in assessing the significance and feasibility of the research.

5. Reproducibility and scientific consensus: Science is a cumulative and self-correcting process that requires independent replication of results and broad consensus within the scientific community. While Dr. Sinclair's work has garnered attention, it is essential to await further independent research and verification by other experts in the field. Building a consensus and replicating results across multiple laboratories will be critical in establishing the true significance and potential of these findings.

In conclusion, while Dr. David Sinclair's research has undoubtedly advanced our understanding of aging and opened up intriguing possibilities for intervention, it is premature to conclude that we are on the cusp of a biological revolution. Aging is a complex and multifaceted process, and developing safe and effective interventions to reverse or slow it down significantly is a formidable scientific and medical challenge that requires rigorous testing, long-term evaluation, and broad consensus within the scientific community.

[Hip]

The root cause of most pathogen-related diseases in the elderly is their aging immune system, rather than the pathogens themselves. This fact is supported by overwhelming evidence and leaves no room for debate.

 

We don't yet have proof that the pathogens found in the tissues of pathogen-associated chronic diseases are the cause of those diseases, let alone proof that a declining immune system is responsible for the presence of those pathogens. It's certainly conceivable that declining immunity in the elderly could promote these pathogen-associated diseases; but many of these diseases start earlier in life, in the 40s and 50s, when immunity is still strong. 

 

I am not aware of any "overwhelming evidence" that declining immunity causes conditions like dementia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, heart diseases, etc.

Edited by Hip, 17 June 2023 - 07:15 PM.

[Hip]

Another thing that should be taken into consideration when we discuss pathogen-associated diseases is mental health illnesses.

 

There is increasing understanding that many common psychiatric illnesses involve chronic brain inflammation. Mental health conditions such as depression, anxiety, dipolar, OCD, schizophrenia and others have now been demonstrated to involve chronic low-level neuroinflammation. Such brain inflammation can be picked up on specialist brain scans.

 

 

Inflammation itself means immune system activation, so there is persistent immune activation in the brains of people suffering mental symptoms. 

 

Where there is inflammation, you also tend to find infection. So its quite conceivable that chronic low-level brain infections might be behind some illnesses like major depression, etc.

 

 

Medical history certainly demonstrates that pathogens can cause mental illness. Before the advent of antibiotics, neurosyphilis (where syphilis spreads from your genitals to your brain) was well known to cause psychosis and schizophrenia-like symptoms. People with neurosyphilis were thus often institutionalised. With the advent of antibiotics, all these incarcerated neurosyphilis schizophrenics were cured.

 

And it is well known that cytomegalovirus can cause anxiety disorder, as can Helicobacter pylori and Epstein-Barr virus.

 

 

Given that we are currently in the midst of a global anxiety and depression epidemic, with no explanation given as to why people are suddenly suffering so many anxiety symptoms these days, you have to wonder whether a new pathogen might be global circulation, causing this mental health pandemic.

 

Have you come across the so-called Chinese HIV-like virus? This is a persistent virus that spread globally from China about 2 decades ago, and it seems to trigger chronic anxiety and depression in some people who catch it, as well as some mild immunosuppression (reduced CD4 counts). Chinese authorities of course tried to cover up this virus, but there are many media articles about it. I wonder if a virus like this could be responsible for the current anxiety pandemic. In Britain, people have so much anxiety that we now place trigger warnings on Shakespeare plays! Insane, and this is unprecedented; but it shows that there are a lot of people with major anxiety issues.

 

 

If common infectious pathogens are the culprits in many mental health diseases, nothing that anti-ageing research offers will remedy this, since mental health issues afflict young people as much as older people.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 17 June 2023 - 07:42 PM.

[LiveWellLiveLong]

"At best, Brenner says, scientists can develop therapies that MAINTAIN THE HEALTH OF OLDER PEOPLE AND KEEP THEM OUT OF THE HOSPITAL."

 

So Brenner is basically saying, scientists can develop LIFE EXTENSION therapies?

[Hebbeh]

Health extension but not so much life extension.  They are 2 different things.

[Castiel]

 

 

As mentioned, I see anti-ageing studies as pointless in practise, given that almost all of us will die of a chronic disease or cancer — which are conditions that have been linked to persistent viral, bacterial, fungal or protozoal infections. 

 

If you want to fight for a longer life, and a longer healthspan, you have to tackle the factors that are most likely going to prevent you from achieving your goals, which is disease and cancer, not the ageing process. 

 

Whatever causes diseases and cancers (and the pathogen theory of disease and cancer is just one hypothesis), that's what needs to be tackled first. 

 

Regards cancer, some have super cancer immunity, and cannot die from it, the technology based on this will soon be to market so others can benefit.  As for neurodegeneration, enough education and mastery of multiple languages, and the brain can withstand severe neurodegeneration and still remain asymptomatic.   So, it's good to be highly educated and master multiple languages.  As for cardiovascular disease, vitamin k2, pomegranate, and keeping cholesterol levels low and that is entirely avoided.   That takes care of the major killers.  Also affecting aging, tends to directly affect the likelihood of getting these.