9 replies to this topic

[osris]

Here is a list of the supplements I take. They are supplements that contain phenols and flavonoids. Am I taking too many phenols and flavonoids?

 

fisetin 477 mg (as part of Life Extension's Senolytic Activator complex - 3 capsules a week)

theaflavins 275 mg (ditto the above)

quercetin 576 mg (ditto the above)

apigenin 50 mg (ditto the above)

green tea extract 500 mg

oregano oil 250 mg 

hemp seed oil 2000 mg

 

If so, which ones would you suggest I remove?

[ta5]

I take more kinds than you. 

 

You might want to check your ferritin since many of these types of things chelate iron.

 

[osris]

According to ChatGBT none of them is associated with iron chelation:

 

"None of the following supplements are associated with iron chelation:

 

Fisetin: There is no direct evidence or information suggesting that fisetin is associated with iron chelation.

 

Theaflavins: Theaflavins are a group of compounds found in black tea. While black tea contains tannins that can inhibit iron absorption, there is no specific evidence indicating that theaflavins have significant iron chelation properties.

 

Quercetin: Quercetin is a flavonoid found in various fruits, vegetables, and herbs. Although quercetin has antioxidant properties, there is limited evidence to suggest that it has significant iron chelation effects.

 

Apigenin: Apigenin is a flavonoid present in certain herbs, fruits, and vegetables. While it exhibits antioxidant properties, there is no substantial evidence linking it to iron chelation.

 

Green tea extract: Green tea extract contains polyphenols, including catechins, which can inhibit iron absorption to some extent. However, it is not considered a potent iron chelator.

 

Oregano oil: Oregano oil is primarily used for its antimicrobial properties and has no significant association with iron chelation.

 

Hemp seed oil: Hemp seed oil does not possess notable iron chelation properties.

 

It's important to note that the information provided is based on general knowledge and there might be ongoing research or specific studies that have not been accounted for. If you require more precise or up-to-date information regarding the association of these supplements with iron chelation, it is recommended to consult scientific literature or seek advice from a healthcare professional."

 

Edited by osris, 08 June 2023 - 09:55 AM.

[ta5]

GPT-4:

 

As of my knowledge cutoff in September 2021, let's go through these one by one:

 

1. Fisetin: There is limited research on the specific interaction of fisetin with iron. Some studies have suggested fisetin can act as an iron chelator in vitro, but it's unclear how this would translate to in vivo use or whether it would significantly affect iron absorption.

 

2. Theaflavins: These compounds found in black tea have been shown to inhibit iron absorption. Tea in general, including green tea, is known to inhibit non-heme iron absorption due to its polyphenols.

 

3. Quercetin: Similar to fisetin, quercetin, a flavonoid found in many fruits and vegetables, has demonstrated iron chelation properties in vitro. However, human studies on this are lacking as of my last update in 2021.

 

4. Apigenin: Again, research is limited. Some laboratory studies suggest that apigenin might have iron-chelating properties, but the impact on human iron absorption isn't clear.

 

5. Green tea extract: As mentioned above, tea polyphenols, including those in green tea, are known to inhibit non-heme iron absorption. Therefore, green tea extract could potentially inhibit iron absorption.

 

[osris]

So according to GPT-4 only Theaflavins are proven iron chelators.

 

I only take Theaflavins once a week so hopefully the risk is low. 

 

[ta5]

And probably Quercetin, and maybe Apigenin. And, inhibiting absorption is just as bad.

 

And, anyway, I'm just saying you should probably check your ferritin. But, everyone should do that periodically.

 

Also, this effect on iron is no doubt one of their benefits, since too much iron is bad. You just don't want it too low either.

Edited by ta5, 08 June 2023 - 05:31 PM.

[gamesguru]

So according to GPT-4 only Theaflavins are proven iron chelators.

 

I only take Theaflavins once a week so hopefully the risk is low. 

 

Guess we need version 5 then. Or a specialized AI to effortlessly and accurately navigate the vast labyrinth of academic journals. To be fair, they did identify in vitro studies, and that should be enough to raise some flags.

 

Lots of things besides theaflavins which do this... oxalates, phytates, polyphenols (yes, chocolate), egg yolk (phosvitin[1]).

 

But yes, I would definitely consider a lower dose of EGCG extract. Probably ~100 mg per day maximum. It affects iron absorption. Possibly calcium, magnesium but later down the line (not absorption). It's potent stuff that healthy people don't need much of. I get mine in the form of tea, brewed either as gyokuro or whisked matcha, which has the added benefit of providing caffeine and theanine all at appropriate levels.

 

Catechins inhibit intracellular calcium mobilization via activation of Ca2+-ATPase and inhibition of inositol 1,4,5-triphosphate formation in human platelets, which leads to the inhibition of fibrinogen-GPIIb/IIIa binding [182].

 

Iron Chelation Properties of Green Tea Epigallocatechin-3-Gallate (EGCG) in Colorectal Cancer Cells: Analysis on Tfr/Fth Regulations and Molecular Docking
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7115142/

Association between tea consumption and osteoporosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5728912/

 

Iron deficiency anemia due to excessive green tea drinking
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5093162/

 

Quercetin and iron metabolism: What we know and what we need to know
https://www.scienced...278691518300875

 

I would also not see much point in apigenin, theaflavins, or oregano oil. The hemp oil is probably slightly better in seed form or making home-made milk from them.

 

These things can have gastrointestinal, mitochondrial, neurological effects—virtually any system, they can affect it.

 

Apigenin may for example have brain fog inducing effects at larger doses. Kind of in the same boat as luteolin in that regard. Fisetin is probably the most interesting and promising. Quercetin I take sometimes for allergies, but is probably safe up to 500 mg daily although I would be leery about suppression of something or another.

 

A reduction of the network excitability could thus account for the sedative effects.

 

The influence of apigenin on membrane and action potential in the liverwort Conocephalum conicum
https://link.springe...1738-006-0018-x

Apigenin modulates GABAergic and glutamatergic transmission in cultured cortical neurons
https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/15464088/

[osris]

Thanks.

 

The iron absorption problem seems to be a risk depending on when the green tea extract is taken. Here is what ChatGPT says:

"The best time to take green tea extract to minimize its potential impact on iron absorption is to avoid taking it at the same time as meals or iron-rich foods. Tannins and oxalates present in green tea, as well as other tea compounds, have been suggested to inhibit the absorption of iron, particularly non-heme iron found in plant foods [1]. Therefore, it is recommended to create a time interval between consuming iron-rich meals or supplements and consuming green tea extract.

 

According to a study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, it is advisable to wait at least one hour after a meal containing iron before consuming tea [2]. This time interval allows for sufficient iron absorption before the potential inhibitory effects of green tea compounds come into play. By separating the intake of green tea extract from iron-rich sources, you can minimize the interference and optimize iron absorption."

 

 

[gamesguru]

Taking tea after an iron rich meal doesn't make much sense (unless you're taking EGCG extract), as tea contains caffeine which is drunk in the morning and iron-containing meals are more likely to be later in the day.

 

I think the likelihood of an overlap increases with the number of chelation agents in use (e.g. tea + quercetin = 2), and the steady state inhibition increases with frequency and dose. So someone taking a lot of green tea extract every day might build phenols up in their system, and have a slightly (maybe 20-30% ?) reduced baseline absorption of iron.

 

We don't really have studies giving us exact answers. But of course spacing things out is wise.

[osris]

I read somewhere that iron-build up is toxic, so maybe reducing it is a good idea?