18 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

Alright guys, I have looked into this a lot. I have a lot of sources and studies but I'm not really going to link to any of them here.

I have found the following claims about glucosamine.

1. glucosamine reduces joint pain for osteoarthritis

2. glucosamine doesn't reduce joint pain for osteoarthritis

3. certain forms of glucosamine reduce joint pain for osteoarthritis

Now before you get ahead of yourself and say "yup, that's true! Glucosamnine sulfate works and lgucosamine hydrochloride doesn't!" we need to reduce the pace here a little bit.

 

Did you know there are TWO forms of glucosamine sulfate?

1. glucosamine sulfate sodium chloride

2. glucosamine sulfate potassium chloride

#2 is available in nearly every supplement that has sulfate.

 

#1 is very hard to find.

 

And you might be able to guess what I'm going to state.

 

Apparently, it's the sodium form that "actually" works in studies.

 

So let's talk about studies here for a bit.

 

If you see a study that says "glucosamine sulfate reduced joint pain" that used sodium, and then you start selling "glucosaminne sulfate" but it's potassium, is that dishonest? It's glucosamine sulfate.

 

So, apparently there is one company who makes glucosamnine sulfate SODIUM chloride. This company is called "Rottapharm". They make a big deal out of it being "crystalline glucosamine" and "the original form used in the studies."

 

Surprisingly, it's hard to find.

 

I bet if you go and look at your glucosamine supplements right now, if it is sulfate, the kind you specifically bought because this is the kind kind that works, it's potassium.

 

Or, it is hydrochloride, the kind that seemingly is ineffective.

 

So, back to those studies.

 

There is a site that summarizes this, and I'll post it here:

https://www.medicalr...ucosamine/71635

 

Basically, the study that showed it works used Rottapharm's glucosamine sulfate sodium chloride, and, wait for it... Rottapharm declined to have their data independently verified.

 

If you research into the studies more, you'll find that IF they mention the type of glucosamine, it is "crystalline glucosamine sulfate sodium chloride." It is not glucosamine sulfate potassium chloride, and it is not glusocamine hydrochloride.

 

But this sodium kind is super hard to find, like I said.

 

Now, let's talk about the lawsuit for a minute. Remember we were talking about glucosamine sulfate vs glucosamine hydrochloride?

 

There was just a huge lawsuit where some big name brands got sued for selling glucosamine hydrochloide but calling it glucosamine sulfate. It's a massive list. You can read about it here: https://www.napolila...false-labeling/

 

So people who bought "glucosamine sulfate" in the last 20 years probably didn't get glucosamine sulfate.

 

And wait a minute, too. This site (Harvard) talks about studies where there was NO IMPROVEMENT using glucosamine, and even one study where the trial had to be finalized early because the trial group got worse pain. https://www.health.h...s-2016101710391

 

So... does anyone have any ACTUAL DATA regarding glucosaminne and if it works and what kind works?

 

Alright, now let's talk about longevity.

 

Some studies came out showing that glucosamine extends lifespan in HUMANS and in MICE, too.

 

Big thread with studies here:

https://www.reddit.c...ower_mortality/

 

Is this bullshit? Supposedly it's a caloric restriction analog. Calorie restriction extends life. Apparently glucosamine makes your body think calories are restricted and offers the same benefits.

 

But... is it possible these studies are biased? I mean, active people are likely to live longer, right? And active people may take glucosamine.

 

Alright, this is my question. Is it bullshit for joints, and is it bullshit for life extension?

 

There have been numerous threads here about glucosamine and longevity, furthermore.

 

I want to know if it's worth it for joints (prevention?!) AND which form, if any, is necessary for life extension.

 

I have found a few brands that sell glucosamine sulfate sodium chloride, not potassium, supposedly the real kind.

 

One of them is in the lawsuit (so it's not glucosamine sulfate).

 

Another one I know nothing about.

 

A third one uses titanium dioxide.

 

The 4th is a powder version and I am using that one, but it costs more.  But it has no additional ingredients besides citric acid and soribttol.

Edited by ironfistx, 30 November 2023 - 01:37 AM.

[timedilation]

Interesting observations for sure, but I find it very hard to believe that the substitution of potassium for sodium would suddenly render the glucosamine sulfate inert.  Especially given that Rottapharm refused to have their data independently verified.  These companies are likely using potassium simply because a lot of people watch their sodium intake. 

[adamh]

It works for me and I've used it for years for arthritis. The thing is that a too small dose seems to do nothing and the amount recommended on the bottle rarely works. I take triple strength tabs and need 3 to 4 a day. If I take one it does nothing. Consider the fact that people keep buying it year after year and if it did not work, sales would dry up to zero. My tabs also contain chondroitin

[ironfistx]

The study here says that sodium and potassium benefit are comparable.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/20649060/

Edited by ironfistx, 03 December 2023 - 01:55 AM.

[ironfistx]

Some more conversations about glucosamine and longevity from this forum:

 

Glucosamine promotes longevity by mimicking a low carb diet

https://www.longecit...-low-carb-diet/

 

Points:

 

- in vitro studies show it destroys pancreas cells -- this may be a non-issue, since its in vitro and at super high concentrations

- life extension properties of glucosamnine are abolished with the introduction of BHA or NAC

- a user reported stopping glucosamine when glucose metabolism affects were noted

- glucosamine may inhibit the repair of cartilage -- it may delay further breakdown, but may prevent already damaged cartilage from rebuilding

 

 

Glucosamine is better than Rapacycin for autophagy

https://www.longecit...-for-autophagy/

 

- limits cancer in humans

- activates AMPK

- multiple studies and comments report it reduces joint pain and has no effect on joint pain

- in a mouse study, Metformin was outperformed by glucosamine - started later in life and generated better results

- a study of 400,039 people in UK taking regular glucosamine showed lower risk of cardiovascular disease - 4 year study

- a study with glucosamine AND chondroitin showed lower colorectal cancer risk, but not glucosamine alone

- caffeinated and decaffeinated coffee show life extension benefits

- maybe 3g a day, taken 1,500mg am and 1,500mg pm is good

- glucosamine can increase IOP (intraoccular pressure) but it was still "normal" and placebo raised it as well

- glucosamnine HCl halflife is 2 hours. Glucosamine sulfate halflife is 15 hours.

- may reduce immunosupression

- at least two members reported hypoglycemic issues, or at least felt like it - super shaky, hungry - this affect was halted when a user stopped keto diet

Edited by ironfistx, 03 December 2023 - 09:45 PM.

[ironfistx]

I want to mention that in at least one study in one of those threads, it specifically mentioned using the "Rotta formulation" of glucosamine.

 

People see this and think "oh, it's glucosamine sulfate."

 

It's Glucosamine SODIUM chloride sulfate.  If you see "crystalline glucosamine" in a study, it is this.  Crystalline glucosamine is a tense topic, and at least one manufacturer I emailed refused to talk to me about it.

 

I have received different definitions of what "crystalline glucosamine" means btw.  So I truthfully have no idea.

 

Nearly all commercially available glucosamine sulfate is Glucosamine POTASSIUM chloride sulfate.

 

Essentially, Rottapharm, the company who seemingly gets positive results in their trials, uses a specific form of POWDERED CRYSTALLINE GLUCOSAMINE SULFATE SODIUM CHLORIDE.  When you see "Rotta formulation" that is what this is referring to.  Notice how many studies use "crystalline glucosmine" and say "powdered" glucosamine.  That might not be the same as the pills everyone is buying.

 

I have rarely ever seen powdered glucosamine, and when I do, it is almost always potassium chloride, not sodium chloride.

 

I believe to replicate the (arthritis) research, you need glucosamine sulfate SODIUM chloride in powdered form.

 

I found one brand that sells it, and it's more expensive (about $1/day).  AFAIK this brand has never been checked by consumer labs.

 

So as far as glucosamine sulfate SODIUM chloride, what I have found is:

 

Davinci Labs (in the lawsuit above for selling glucosamine HCL mislabeled as glucosamnine sulfate, so I don't trust them)

 

Integrative Therapeutics (I am guessing from the label that this is glucosamine sulfate sodium chloride because the label lists sodium, not potassium)

 

Dona (the popular brand selling the original "crystalline" glucosamine, but they are pills and they include titanium dioxide).  They say crystalline on their packaging, but it's a pill.  So maybe crystalline doesn't mean powder.

 

Wynnpharm Invigoflex (sells glucosamine sodium chloride sulfate in powdered form, and some pill versions).

 

There are some powder formulas available in other (not US) countries, but they have aspartame.

 

I do not even know if this sodium/potassium deal is important.

 

I found this study which suggests there is brand bias for Rottapharm in the research, but even the summary was confusing to me.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/24905534/

 

Finally, the first post in this thread mentioned that Rottapharm even let anyone else verify their results.  SUSPICIOUS.  Second, I have no idea if it even matters for longevity uses.

 

But I highly doubt the people "taking glucosamine for years" were using this specific crystalline sodium version.  It took me a bit to find it online, and I was searching specifically for it.  Regular people who desire glucosamine are going to go to the store and buy anything, not specifically search online for a sodium powder version.  They were feasibly buying anything at the store, so probably hcl or regular potassium glucosamine.

 

moreover, I added one more point to the previous post so anyone who just read it recently, go read it again.

Edited by ironfistx, 03 December 2023 - 10:06 PM.

[ekaitz]

What about N-Acetylglucosamine (GlcNAc)?

[ironfistx]

The Glucosamine Cancer Prevention Thread

https://www.longecit...vention-thread/

 

- more studies showing a decrease in cancer rates with glucosamine use

- posts from member @Zarathrustra who monitors various markers of "cancerousness" in his organism and found glucosamine to increase cancerousness

- another mention of the study showing gl and chondroitin lower colorectal cancer but not glucoamine alone.  But gl alone decreases prevalence of varied cancers

- anecdote of research from the 70s showing that gl in big doses administered continusously in IV treated cancer in animals 

 

 

Edited by ironfistx, 09 December 2023 - 09:19 PM.

[ironfistx]

What about N-Acetylglucosamine (GlcNAc)?

From what I saw in the other threads, it has less glucosamine than other forms and less effect.  Nevertheless, it may have other uses. 

[ironfistx]

From all of this, here are my musings:

 

1) WHAT KIND OF GLUCOSAMINE IS ACTUALLY USED IN THE STUDIES?  For example, this paper specifically says "crystalline glucosamine sulfate" and then if you read it, it talks about the Rotta formulation, which is a specific type of glucosamine sulfate (sodium rather than potassium).

 

https://www.oarsijou...0193-7/fulltext

 

edit - this study does not specifically mention "Rotta formulation," but it does say crystalline glucosamine is a trademarked by Rottapharm Formulations.

 

This is the study that talks about the "Rotta preparation."

 

https://lmreview.com...osteoarthritis/

 

It then implies that "non-Rotta" preparations are glucosamine hydrochloride.

 

This contradicts what I've seen earlier that Rotta formulation is specifically glucosamine sulfate sodium chloride, not glucosamine potassium sodlium chloride, both of which are glucosamine sulfate. From my research, the "Rotta preparation is glucosamine sulate sodium chloride, not glucosamine sulfate potassium chloride, and precisely saying "glucosamine sulfate" does not necessarily mean Rotta formulation.

 

I think people see "glucosamine" and figure it's anything they buy at the store.

 

2) The longevity studies... I figure people were just using whatever.  They asked them do you take glucosamine.  They didn't ask do you take a specific type of glucosamine.  We can probably say that 50% of them were using hydrochloride and 50% were using sulfate.

 

2.5) considering that for years, much of the glucosamine sulfate wasn't even glucosamine sulfate, maybe they were all taking hydrochloride.

 

3) the papers showing glucosamine isn't effective concerning joint pain seem to make no distinction between sulfate and hydrochloride.  This paper explains it.  The basic thinking is that half the studies showed improvement (sulfate) and the rest didn't (hydrochloride) and the publishers lumped them together to say glucosamine doesn't show benefit.

 

4) Considering there was a paper above that said glucosamine limits cartilage breakdown, HOWEVER PREVENTS REGENERATION, maybe it's not a good idea to take it.  While someone is putting forth effort to regenerate cartilage, maybe glucosamine needs to be avoided.

 

5) it's possible that glucosamine (SULFATE, which apparently has an effect on joints) stops progression of damage and stops regeneration, and glucosamine hydrochloride has no effect on joints but still benefits mortality.

 

6) apparently glucoamine sulfate can be taken once per day and glucosamine hydrochloride requires to be taken 500mg 3x per day.  Maybe the studies showing glucosamine hydrochloride doesn't do anything had people taking it once per day.

 

It's possible that people saw the recommendation "take this dosage" and they took it once per day.  And that dose at once per day only works for sulfate when 1,500mg per day is used.

 

7) it is very likely that participants won't think this much about it and just take whatever glucsoamine and it's all good for longevity overall.

 

8) maybe glucosamine hydrochloride does nothing for joints but helps longevity.  Maybe glucosamine sulfate helps joints by restricting arthritis development but hampers cartilage healing, and also helps longevity.  Maybe hydrochloride is the type to take if you do not have arthritis and you want longevity benefits.  Maybe sulfate is the type to take if you have arthritis or desire to restrict its progression.

 

9) but there are two types of glucosamine sulfate, too, assuming you aren't being mislead by the companies that were selling fake glucosamine sulfate.  There is glucosamine sulfate SODIUM chloride (the "Rotta formulation"?) and glucosamine sulfate POTASSIUM chloride -- the more common version.  There is also crystalline glucosamine sulfate, and I am unaware of what that is, other than it's what Rotta says they use.  It think it's clear, all glucosamine is not the same.

Edited by ironfistx, 09 December 2023 - 10:29 PM.

[ironfistx]

"In fact, glucosamine hydrochloride actually inhibits hyaluronic acid and glycosaminoglycan synthesis in chrondocytes!"

 

https://lmreview.com...osteoarthritis/

[ironfistx]

What about N-Acetylglucosamine (GlcNAc)?

 

Here are some threads about that:

 

http://www.longecity...yl +glucosamine

 

https://www.longecit...ide-or-sulfate/

 

The bottom of that thread.

[adamh]

After the talk about it not working I thought how do I know it still works since I've been taking it for decades. Maybe my arthritis just got better and I don't need it anymore? About a week ago I quit taking my gl/chron tabs. For several days I didn't feel any different. The last couple days the discomfort came back bigtime. Today I started taking them again, if the pain does not come back I consider it proven.

 

I have never paid attention to sodium or potassium, just bought whatever was cheapest and it always worked. The fact that it has other beneficial effects is reason enough to take it

[Rocket]

Don't trust the medical establishment or the government. There's a vested interest in keeping people sick. Why do you think they are legalizing pot and our food will kill you? Why do you think that coincidentally with covid shots that death rates skyrocketed. The government isn't your friend, nor is big pharma.

Edited by Rocket, 17 December 2023 - 01:15 AM.

[adamh]

I started taking my tabs again and within 2 or 3 days the pain went away. I consider it proven but you have to take a large enough dose and chondroitin too

[ironfistx]

I started taking my tabs again and within 2 or 3 days the pain went away. I consider it proven but you have to take a large enough dose and chondroitin too

Did you do sulfate or hydrochloride?

Edited by ironfistx, 20 December 2023 - 02:06 AM.

[adamh]

Did you do sulfate or hydrochloride?

 

Gluc hcl and chon sulfate 1500mg/1200mg per 2 tabs

[ironfistx]

Gluc hcl and chon sulfate 1500mg/1200mg per 2 tabs

Rather interesting you experience benefit from the hcl version.

Glad you replied to this post.

[frederickson]

some interesting discussion here on an underrated supplement!

 

it seems clear now that the hydrochloride vs. sulfate debate was largely driven by financial interests (primarily rottapharm). the best evidence on the subject reveals that both glucosamine hydrochloride and glucosamine sulfate are both efficacious for joint health as evidenced by the two large, randomized, head-to-head trials. these studies essentially settled the debate. the binding salt seems to have a negligible effect on efficacy.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/25085275/

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33468249/

 

glucosamine/chondroitin is obviously an older supplement and doesn't generate the interest that it probably should, both for joints and overall health. definitely one of my staple supplements.

Edited by frederickson, 02 February 2024 - 03:29 PM.