35 replies to this topic

[Galaxyshock]

Kinda touched this topic in the COVID subforum but to not derail discussion in there, felt like it deserves its own thread here. 

 

I'm sort of a believer in the Eight-Circuit Model of Consciousness. This sums it up pretty well:

https://psychology.f...f_Consciousness

 

It's not like the evolution has stopped and we are left with a primitive brain uncapable of evolving. I believe in the "higher" circuits of consciousness, providing us understanding of the larger picture - humanity as a whole, earth as a collective being. I feel that this understanding is getting increasingly critical in a world faced with different threats: (Nuclear) world war 3, pandemics, overpopulation (possibly correlating to life-extension!) and artificial intelligence. For example, if an artificial consciouness does or is emerged at some point, I would think that it only operates (at least initially) similar to the third circuit of humans - concerned with logic and symbolic thought. For this reason I wouldn't consider it a threat to humans - us with the bio-survival need for food, water and shelter to survive.

 

Lots of pseudoscience, new-age content and extensive use of psychedelics thrive in topics like these, but I believe as a collection of smart minds here in LongeCity we can filter out the information that's too far out there. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the Eight-Circuit Model of Consciousness, shamanism, deeper levels of meditation and their practical applications for better humanity. Any kind of book or movie recommendations are also very welcomed! These topics are fascinating.

 

Some of my personal recommendations:

Tibetan Book Of The Dead (Book)

Info-Psychology (Book, 1987)

The Man from Earth (Movie, 2007)

Twelve Monkeys (Movie, 1995)

 

Didn't quite touch the topic as a whole with this opening, but hopefully it sparks some ideas, comments and good discussion!

Edited by Galaxyshock, 21 March 2024 - 03:02 PM.

[pamojja]

I don't think I can add what is also easy to understand, but since you invited me to this topic: my honest 5 cents worth.

 

 

I'm sort of a believer in the Eight-Circuit Model of Consciousness.

 

I always ask what a belief is good for? After a short glance, it seems to have some similarities to Robert Kegans 'The Evolving Self'. Which for example is good for understanding of differing perspectives, and effective interactions. Also in therapeutic settings with youth, and those all too many in older age, who haven't evolved further.

 

 

8. The Psycho-atomic Circuit allows access to the intergalactic consciousness that predates life in the universe (characterized as God, the Overmind and lets humans operate outside of space-time and the constraints of relativity. This circuit is associated with Ketamine and DMT by Leary. (Called also by Leary The Neuro-Atomic Circuit or The Metaphysiological Circuit, Robert Anton Wilson called this circuit The Quantum Non-Local Circuit.)

 

Such concepts are only good to induce longing, in those who aren't ready, even for the previous evolving steps. Psychedelic, meditative shortcuts or through channeling. There are no real shortcuts.

 

 

.. we can filter out the information that's too far out there.

 

So far out there is a gradually evolving self to such conscious states as the proposed 8. Circuit, which could gain the realization, that there is nothing to gain only. Excruciatingly painful to those not ready. Usually settling for much less, for example by starting a sect. Or acting in a way that leads to heaven. Temporarily, for some eternity only.

 

Universes natural experience expansion during vast timescales (for which modern physics postulates a big bang), alternated by contraction. In an expanding universe, lifeforms proliferate. During contraction, virtually every being becomes spiritual only again. Endless times again and again. With no heaven secure, in the cycles of becoming, ever.

 

Feel free to disregard.

Edited by pamojja, 21 March 2024 - 06:26 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

Yeah I invited a few people who could be interested discussing these things, others are very welcomed too. Thanks for chiming in. 

 

I see most of successful people having strong beliefs, like Tom Cruise with scientology for example. I perhaps see it as part of self-actualization, believing in something whatever it is that clicks your personal worldview. Also I've met many religious people and it seems as if they have found inner peace in their lives, which I kinda envy. Then again beliefs can create false sense of security, and even be dangerous as seen in terrorism etc. So questioning everything is perhaps the first step in this belief-process. Good link, I'll have a closer look in "The Evolving Self".

 

Need to digest these things a bit more but yeah, copious amounts of psychedelics (however "therapeutic" they may seem), spiritual practices and meditation to access these supposed higher circuits, can turn into sort of spiritual masturbation if nothing is brought back from the "trip".

 

I think that AI / automation replacing human jobs can create a larger leisure class, activating the 5th circuit. Perhaps that's the next step in large-scale human evolution of the consciousness. Timothy Leary speculated these higher circuits crucial for eventual space-migration, but from that we are obviously very far from.

[pamojja]

..can turn into sort of spiritual masturbation if nothing is brought back from the "trip".

 

Or rather by bringing at least 'something' seemingly satisfying back from the trip, as for example explained by the late Chögyam Trugpa in his 'Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism'.

 

Then again beliefs can create false sense of security, and even be dangerous as seen in terrorism etc. So questioning everything is perhaps the first step in this belief-process.

 

All religious traditions have been edited and misused by politics. Buyer beware.

 

In the tradition I practice with, there are 2 approaches of followers, by belief or investigation. However, this classification is a simplification of individual prepositions to the 5 faculties: faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom.

 

Which every one of them has to a certain extent be developed in meditation. As they are basically the 5 antidotes to the 5 hindrances to meditation: doubt, sloth and torpor, heedlessness, restlessness and worry, craving and aversion.

 

No drug or channeler can 'initiate' those mental faculties by mental training developed to real strengths, other than to give a forecast.

 

Also I've met many religious people and it seems as if they have found inner peace in their lives, which I kinda envy.

 

Peace of mind you don't have to envy. It's rather the first milestone on the path (other than some might believe the goal) and essential for commencing in meditation. And very probably its lack, the reason why some went astray with meditation-retreats only (or psychedelics).
 

 

Lawfulness of Progress, Anguttara Nikaya X, 1-2:

 

For one who is virtuous and endowed with virtue (Sila), there is no need for an act of will: 'May non-remorse arise in me!' It is a natural law, monks, that non-remorse (Kusala-sañña) will arise in one who is virtuous.

- For one free of remorse, there is no need for an act of will: 'May gladness arise in me!' It is a natural law that gladness (Pamojja) will arise in one who is free from remorse.

- For one who is glad at heart, there is no need for an act of will: 'May joy arise in me!' It is a natural law that joy (Piti) will arise in one who is glad at heart.

- For one who is joyful, there is no need for an act of will: 'May my body be serene!' It is a natural law that the body will be serene (Passaddhi) for one who is joyful.

- For one of serene body, there is no need for an act of will: 'May I feel happiness!' It is a natural law that one who is serene will feel happiness (Sukha).

- For one who is happy, there is no need for an act of will: 'May my mind be concentrated!' It is a natural law for one who is happy that the mind will be concentrated (Samma-samadhi).

- For one who is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will: 'May I know and see things as they really are!' It is a natural law for one a concentrated mind to know and see things as they really are (Ñanadassana).

- For one who knows and sees things as they really are, there is no need for an act of will: 'May I experience revulsion and dispassion!' It is a natural law for one who knows and sees things as they really are to experience revulsion and dispassion (Nibbida).

- For one who experiences revulsion and dispassion, there is no need for an act of will: 'May I realize the knowledge and vision of liberation!' It is a natural law for one who experiences revulsion and dispassion to realize the knowledge and vision of liberation (Nibbana).

...Thus, monks, the preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the near to the far shore.

 

Virtue here is not depreciated for social status or a better future re-becoming. But because it's the essential first step on the path, upon all others naturally follow. (..pamojja too, is not a status, but a dynamic interplay ;-)

 

 

1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
3. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.
4. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech (lying, divisive speech, abusive speech, idle chatter).
5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.

 

The tradition, I practice with, is very lenient. Lay-followers are only expected to follow them strictly on every moon day. Are rather approached as experimental trainings, where one by oneself experiences very clear outcomes (ie. non-remorse). And therefore only, applies it sincerely, beyond mere belief.

 

Also I've met many religious people and it seems as if they have found inner peace in their lives, which I kinda envy.

 

However, this peace of mind would be such a low-hanging fruit. Sort of strange, that so few seeds and harvests it. Or used only faked for status or the false promise of a better future life.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 22 March 2024 - 11:47 AM.

[Hip]

Galaxyshock, have you ever looked into making an oscillating picotesla magnetic field generator as a means to entrain the brain into the alpha and theta spiritual states? 

 

The basic idea is that you create ultra-weak magnetic fields in the picotesla power range which oscillate at alpha (8-13 Hz) or theta (4-8 Hz) frequencies. The brain will detect these fields and will start oscillating at these externally imposed frequencies. Practices such as Zen meditation put the meditator into the alpha or theta state, where the brain starts oscillating at alpha or theta frequencies; and the same state can be achieved with a picotesla oscillator, which will evoke spiritual or higher consciousness states without any effort. 

 

Years ago I built my own picotesla oscillator from a few electronics parts, and I did quite a bit of experimentation with it. I was familiar with the Zen mental state, having practised lots of zazen meditation at various centres in London. I found the mental state created by my picotesla oscillator was very similar to the Zen state. These picotesla oscillators were fashionable in the 1960s, and I believe some churches in the US even used picotesla oscillators to raise the spiritual level of their congregation.  

 

It's actually quite easy to make a picotesla oscillator just using some electrical wire, a computer sine wave generator app, and the audio output of a computer. 

 

 

Interestingly, the Earth's own magnetic field has a fundamental resonance at 7.83 Hz, which is in the theta range, and at around picotesla power levels (only picotesla levels can entrain the brain). This is called the Schumann resonance of the Earth. This Schumann resonance may thus be having an impact on human consciousness, increasing the brain's theta waves, and pushing the brain towards a more spiritual state or self-reflective state.

 

Some physicist whose name I forget even had a theory that in geographic areas which are known for being more spiritual or religious, the Schumann resonance might be naturally stronger (due to magnetic characteristics of the bedrock). He theorised that a strong Schumann resonance picotesla magnetic field should evoke more spiritual states. Although I don't think he ever obtained any evidence for his theory.

 

But certainly there are areas of the world which are naturally more spiritual. And intriguingly, if you look at areas of the globe which are strongly spiritual or religious (such as California, Israel and Ethiopia), you find they are all located right next to active geological fault lines (earthquake zones). It's known that tectonic pressures in the rocks below the ground cause electric currents to flow via the piezoelectric effect, and these currents in turn can create vibrating magnetic fields which affect the brain. So this could explain why these regions are more spiritual or religious. 

 

I am sure you must have heard of Jerusalem syndrome: this is where totally rational tourists visit Israel and suddenly have a religious epiphany. The Israeli police will often find these tourists hit with Jerusalem syndrome wandering around the streets, preaching religious ideas to anyone who will listen, sometimes dressed in the white bedsheets from their hotel, in the style of a Biblical character.

 

I actually I suspect Jerusalem syndrome is triggered by the tectonic magnetic fields vibrating in Israel.

 

And all the crazy New Age religions of California and Oregon in the USA might also be inspired by the geological fault line running all the way along the Western seaboard of the US. 

 

And in Iceland, a major geological fault line runs right through this country; and a recent survey found 35% of people in Iceland believe that elves (gnomes) exist, and many have seen these elves themselves. So something must be making the Icelandic people hallucinate elves, and I suspect tectonic activity might be behind this. 

 

I have a lot of interest in this idea that certain parts of the world have a spiritual atmosphere, conducive to spiritual states. The idea of a sacred land.  

  

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 24 March 2024 - 04:59 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

Galaxyshock, have you ever looked into making an oscillating picotesla magnetic field generator as a means to entrain the brain into the alpha and theta spiritual states? 

 

Nope, but sounds very interesting. I need to have a deeper look into brain waves, seems like you are on to something with your ideas.

 

 

All religious traditions have been edited and misused by politics. Buyer beware.

 

Pretty much yeah, religions have been used to justify various bad things like the Crusades. Shamanism I consider the best "religion" in a sense that it doesn't promise some eternal bliss just for belief but rather the practices are used to help and heal people in somewhat understandable ways. Probably someone somewhere has abused their shaman status but overall it appears to me that shamanism at least hasn't done much harm, especially compared to various religious extermisms.

 

Sounds interesting the tradition you practice with, pamojja.

 

Reality tunnel is another fascinating concept, I think it's rather obvious that we experience and move through the world in differing interpretations. I think that through shamanic practices etc. we can relate to, and perhaps even experience other's reality tunnels and thus be able see the world through their eyes or so to say. So a completely different level of empathy/sympathy and understanding can be gained. Like I said I don't know much about brain waves, but perhaps this applies to that too: being "on the same wavelength", literally even.

 

I don't have much experience with traditional shamanism, I've read a book about it and had a few self-initiated practices of my own, but I'm definitely curious to learn more.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 24 March 2024 - 09:51 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

The psychotic episodes I had years ago have humbled me and I've kinda accepted there's no "final truth" and nobody understands exactly what is going on. I mean quantum physics show us particles don't have exact position but instead there's a "cloud" of probabilities where they can be and some physicist said it's the cloud that is actually real. So I think the reality has kind of a dream-like nature, which altered states can reveal.

 

Sometimes I think the world needs a common threat like a small asteroid in collision course to earth - to make us realize we are all in this together.

 

If somebody finds faults in my ramblings feel free to correct me, I'm a novice to certain things like quantum physics. 

 

Spending some time in the country side now so I may not be posting as much here. 

Edited by Galaxyshock, 24 March 2024 - 10:04 AM.

[pamojja]

I don't have much experience with traditional shamanism, ..

 
Actually was my starting place of understanding. When I first read the new testament still as a kid, it made no sense relative to what was experienced. But short after reading 'journey to ixtlan' (though a literary work, contains many shamanistic approaches) it suddenly perfectly did.
 

I've kinda accepted there's no "final truth" and nobody understands exactly what is going on.

 
The inner dialog, in Castaneda's writing, which interprets perceptions to us. I consider a very malleable tool - once its texture is explored - for getting closer to understanding, and for which it has to stop.
 
Uncontrolled breakdown would be psychosis, and it therefore is also a valuable and very powerful tool for humans in everyday social interactions, if not fooled by it, it would be what is real. The texture of this 'inner dialog' is however a real process, as every real other process, seen behind the distortions of that inner dialog.
 
In my journey to Africa I was deeply reminded how language determines reality. Just the absence of a future tense in most traditional African languages (a few could propose 1-2 rainy seasons ahead, however), induced the reality of everyone's life: to pass from the present to the past - the older a person, the more in the past - until at death one joins the ancestors in the very far past. The opposite from how we knew it: one lives from the past, through the present, on into the future.
 
Thereby, the developmental state many Africans had been in, made most sense. In other developing countries I've seen how with amazing improvisation so much would still be made. In Africa, I saw most machinery aid mainly rusting. It seemed as Africans had been caught in between its traditional languages and conceptions dying, and the ability for planing for a bettered future not embodied yet, really. Through lack of education in the general population.
 
A very powerful tool indeed, for worse or better. According to circumstances, too.
 

Shamanism I consider the best "religion" in a sense that it doesn't promise some eternal bliss just for belief but rather the practices are used to help and heal people in somewhat understandable ways.

 
If I only didn't also visit and saw the opposite. Indigenous cultures (other than those who knew, or through circumstances, to protected themselves from outside cultures) with shamans, aren't resilient or in a way empowered to help their own people, Highest alcoholism and suicide rates.
 

..and thus be able see the world through their eyes or so to say. So a completely different level of empathy/sympathy and understanding can be gained.

 
Actually, really nothing magic (see my last post).

 

From Kusala-sañña (the molded inner dialog above) through naturally evolving Samma-samadhi (where the inner dialog quits). The reality of the processes running this world are in the wide open. There each separate process isn't independent, but mutually interacting (no real 'I', 'mine' or 'self'). So simply one owns body-mind can tap into each of any other. And perceive, what perception through language with correct grammar wouldn't permit.
 
Not as possibility. But through gradually evolving practice.

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 24 March 2024 - 01:45 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

Uncontrolled breakdown would be psychosis, and it therefore is also a valuable and very powerful tool for humans in everyday social interactions, if not fooled by it, it would be what is real.

 

Yeah psychosis is usually both a breakdown and a breakthrough. My 2015 psychosis had blissful background, I felt as if guided by spirits and took the experience in kind of an innocent awe. For almost three months I spent in that what felt like "intermediate state" but towards the end started rejecting it and things got quite bad. But at some point it ended just like that. Antipsychotic medications never really did anything to stop or reduce it. On the other hand the 2018 psychosis I had was much more difficult and had a dysphoric and dark background to it. Excess alcohol use and neglecting myself and my health preceded it, was probably reason why it was such a bad experience along with no longer going to it in an innocent and naive background. It was really like a nightmare you can't wake up from and can't rationalize yourself through. The psychotic state eventually faded, was a tough lesson, but haven't had any psychotic symptoms ever since so it's been over five years.

 

 

 

If I only didn't also visit and saw the opposite. Indigenous cultures (other than those who knew, or through circumstances, to protected themselves from outside cultures) with shamans, aren't resilient or in a way empowered to help their own people, Highest alcoholism and suicide rates.

 

Thanks for reporting that experience, I guess my view on shamanism has been gullible.

[pamojja]

Thanks for reporting that experience, I guess my view on shamanism has been gullible.

 

I still think shamans themselves went through a very valuable also gradual self-evolving process. But not to forget, through a 1 to 1 tutoring process over many years. And through that of course do develop a very high mental fortitude and resilience, other than their folks. For which they're still valuable too, by their psychological and medical knowledge.

 

I only had the chance to munch on peyote with the Huichols. Or san pedro with a Peruvian shaman on a weekend-seminar, so rather customized for our consumer society. And not really what it was meant for.

 

 

Sounds interesting the tradition you practice with, pamojja.

 

Have to disappoint you here again. At the place of its cultural heritage, that very cultural heritage has become its burden. Just as replanted to the west, it becomes all too often what it actually wasn't really meant for, too.
 

But if one's sees the inner dialog for what it is, then one can practice it in any spiritual tradition or none. Anyplace too. A community of equal minded is however very supportive and important, especially in the beginning. And for deeper silent meditation, a really quiet and supportive of such practice place.

 

Not at a beginners level later, at least temporary solitude is most effective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hip]

Yeah psychosis is usually both a breakdown and a breakthrough. My 2015 psychosis had blissful background, I felt as if guided by spirits and took the experience in kind of an innocent awe. For almost three months I spent in that what felt like "intermediate state" but towards the end started rejecting it and things got quite bad. But at some point it ended just like that. Antipsychotic medications never really did anything to stop or reduce it. On the other hand the 2018 psychosis I had was much more difficult and had a dysphoric and dark background to it. Excess alcohol use and neglecting myself and my health preceded it, was probably reason why it was such a bad experience along with no longer going to it in an innocent and naive background. It was really like a nightmare you can't wake up from and can't rationalize yourself through. The psychotic state eventually faded, was a tough lesson, but haven't had any psychotic symptoms ever since so it's been over five years.

 

It is amazing how mental ill health can sometimes be a blissful transcendental experience, but other times can be journey through literal hell. 

 

My mental health issues started suddenly with a bad case of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). I am pretty certain this was due to catching some infectious pathogen, which messed up my guts. We know that the condition of the gut can have a major impact on the brain, and my mental state changed profoundly and permanently after getting IBS. As a result of the IBS, I developed the psychiatric condition of hyper-religiosity, which dramatically alters the way you think.

 

I had always been a spiritually-inclined person, interested in mysticism; but at the same time I was very scientific (I have a degree in physics and mathematics), and I was very practical, quite capable of dealing with the practical aspects of life, such as holding down a job. But once I developed hyper-religiosity, it was like having spirituality on steroids — suddenly everything in my life revolved around the transcendental or the divine. After developing hyper-religiosity, I did not want to do anything normal or anything involving practical daily needs; I only wanted to try to connect to a higher or divine power, so that my actions on Earth might reflect divine will. I saw human will as debased and shallow, and felt that only trying to follow divine will was the right thing to do.

 

Because of this, I had a complete breakdown in my ordinary life, as I lost all interest in the normal practical requirements of daily life, like having a job or career, because I wanted to follow some higher divine will. So this hyper-religiosity psychiatric condition was highly disruptive to my life.

 

During this hyper-religious state, I also started to experience paranormal events: I started to routinely predict my immediate future.

 

For example, I would be preparing to go out for the eventing, and then a thought would spontaneously flash across my mind: "you are going to meet a French girl tonight". I would forget about this thought, and just go out and enjoy myself socially. Then later on in the evening, I would find myself chatting to a girl, and I would say "where are you from?". Then when they answered "France", I would suddenly remember my earlier prediction.

 

These paranormal events kept happening to me: I kept getting very precise premonitions of what was going to happen to me in the next few hours. Having studied quantum physics at university, I started to wonder whether my unbalanced brain was sucking in information from the near future, through some quantum phenomenon (eg quantum entanglement across temporal intervals). 

 

This hyper-religious state went on for about 8 years, and caused my life to totally fall apart, because of the radically altered mental perspective. I lost my career, and sadly lost my soulmate girlfriend who I otherwise would have married. But at the same time, in spite of this relationship tragedy (which I still lament today), I was living very intensely, because I had such powerful spiritual and religious energies coursing through my mind.

 

People talk about the loss of mystical enchantment in our modern scientific and technological age; but with this hyper-religious mental state, I found the world around me magically enchanted and filled with divine energies.  

 

Then after 8 years in this hyper-religious state, I caught a nasty virus which got into and infected my brain (causing encephalitis) and this resulted in considerable brain damage. This encephalitis brain infection unfortunately ripped out and destroyed the spiritual part of my brain, so that I suddenly lost all my spiritual energies. And the encephalitis destroyed most of my empathetic skills as well (I used to be able to read people's minds quite easily as a result of natural empathy; but the encephalitis destroyed the empathetic areas of my brain too). 

 

This brain damage to my spiritual and empathetic faculties ended the 8 years of hyper-religiosity. This virus I caught also remained as an ongoing infection, and in combination with the brain damage it caused, triggered chronic fatigue syndrome, as well as causing some really torturous mental health symptoms such as horrible anhedonia, blunted emotions, depression, moderate to severe generalised anxiety disorder, and some mild psychosis symptoms.

 

As a result of the brain damage from the infection, I also lost most of my ability to read and comprehend text. It would take me 20 minutes to try to understand a simple 3-sentence email. But thankfully this faculty of reading slowly came back over about 10 to 15 years.

 

This new phase in my mental health had no plus sides; it's just been a very long journey (two decades so far) through a literal hell. Though my mental health fluctuates, and I've been reasonably OK in the last week or two.

 

So now I suffer the opposite extreme to hyper-religiosity: a total loss of all my spiritual and religious feelings. I find this totally unbelievable; for 8 years I had hyper-religious spirituality, where I felt like I had divine energies running through my mind; and then after the brain infection, I was plunged into the extreme opposite: a total spiritual void, where I feel I have lost all contact with the divine and the transcendental. Totally abandoned by God, if you like. 

 

Ever since being cut off from my spiritual energies, I have simply wished for death, just because I hope that through the journey of death, I might once again reconnect with the spiritual dimension of the universe, as a disincarnate soul. Not that I necessarily believe in life after death, but I'd be happy to take my chances with this possibility. 

 

So almost every day since that brain infection I had in 2005, I prayed to any god who might be listening, to give me a nice painless and quick fatal heart attack, in order to dispatch me to the next world. Unfortunately, so far my prayers have not been answered, so I am still here, living in the vacuum of a godless life.

 

But while I am still here, I feel it is my duty to try to enlighten anyone who might listen about the horrible damage infectious pathogens can cause to human life. Viruses totally destroyed my life and destroyed my happiness; so I want to make people understand how insidiously damaging such pathogens can be to physical and mental health. People get life-destroying physical and mental illnesses all the time. One minute they are healthy, the next they are very ill. But they never once realise that the reason they switched from health to disease is likely by catching an infectious pathogen (which we can catch asymptomatically without knowing). 

 

I have done a lot of online medical research into brain repair, looking for ways to heal a damaged brain. But my understanding is that the brain does not heal after significant physical damage because of what is called the glial scar in the brain. The glial cells in the brain create glial scar tissue in response to damage, and this glial scar physically prevents new neurons from growing and making connections to surrounding neurons. Researchers are looking for ways to try to dissolve the glial scar, so that the brain can heal, but this research is still in its infancy.   

 

 

 

But going back to your interest in shamanism: as you know, the shaman has been described as the "wounded warrior". Tribesmen are expected to be tough and macho, which is necessary for hunting food and surviving in difficult conditions. But sometimes one of the men of the tribe will develop an illness, physical or mental, which changes their nature. Through this illness, they lose their tough masculinity, but they may gain psychological and spiritual insights from their ill health ordeal, and so they become the individual in the tribe who attends to the tribe's spiritual needs — the shaman.

 

Maybe with your ordeal with psychosis, you can relate to what happens to turn an ordinary tribesman into a shaman.

Edited by Hip, 24 March 2024 - 04:50 PM.

[pamojja]

Viruses totally destroyed my life and destroyed my happiness; so I want to make people understand how insidiously damaging such pathogens can be to physical and mental health. People get life-destroying physical and mental illnesses all the time. One minute they are healthy, the next they are very ill.

 

My most life disrupting event was at birth, with pneumonia right at the brink of death at the same time. Through many more viral infections and years, it conditioned a path away from misery. Which too, may find an abrupt end. That's the nature of existence. All conditioned things are bound to cease.

 

There is the saying: it needs many conditions to life, but only one to die.

 

I somehow had a way to be with it, since my cradle. And a long, also painful process of making peace with sorrow. Which might be lost, too..
 

Suicide from sorrow might bring only further, much worse sorrow.

 

Edited by pamojja, 24 March 2024 - 05:40 PM.

[Hip]

My most life disrupting event was at birth, with pneumonia right at the brink of death at the same time.

 
What would you say is the suffering that you have had throughout your life, as a result of this infection at birth?
 
Did this infection give you a permanently weak or frail disposition, and as a result, poor physical and/or mental health throughout life?



 

many conditions to life, but only one to die.

 

Yes, certainly life is precarious, and so many bad things can randomly happen. Not just terrible medical events, but freak accidents that can cause death or permanent injury.

 

So physical life is hazardous, and we could die at any moment. However, death itself is not a philosophical problem for me. It's something I have no great issues with.

 

But what I cannot fathom is how during life, conscious beings can be plunged into prolonged and terrible suffering, typically as a result of either severe psychiatric symptoms or chronic physical pain from chronic diseases. 

 

This pain or suffering of conscious beings can experience is a deep philosophical conundrum.

 

Because if we were not conscious — if we were just machines that operated without having a mind and without having an internal mental life — there could be no suffering. If a non-conscious a machine becomes dysfunctional, its behaviour and actions may go awry, but the machine itself would not suffer as a result of this dysfunction, because there is no mind inside the machine to consciously experience anything. 

 

Today we are developing computer AI with remarkable abilities, but these computers are not conscious (to the best of our knowledge), and if they become dysfunctional due to a hardware or software fault, they do not experience any suffering, as they have no mind. 

 

But conscious humans can suffer if their brain becomes physically dysfunctional, and this dysfunction creates terrible mental health symptoms in the conscious mind generated by that brain.

 

So it is the very fact that we are conscious which opens us up to the risk of immense suffering. As well as to the possibility of incredible bliss, for those who are lucky to have a life of bliss. 

 

 

 

But what is it about the nature of conscious that allows for such suffering? The Buddha thought a lot about the problem of human suffering; but there is not much in his writings on this subject that really enlightens.

 

Nobody knows what conscious actually is. Science is exploring the nature of consciousness, but we don't actually know much about it a present. Some scientists and philosophers believe conscious is a fundamental feature or force of the universe, and human brains merely tap into this fundamental force in order to become conscious. 

 

But if consciousness is indeed a fundamental attribute of the universe, it means that the universe itself is set up for the possibility of immense self-suffering. It means that suffering is actually part of the architecture of the cosmos. 

 

 

When I think of the degree of my own mental health suffering, it's bad. But then I think, perhaps there are other regions or dimensions of the universe in which conscious beings are in a state of far greater suffering than I can even imagine. Or perhaps there are conscious dimensions in the universe which are just pure suffering itself. 

 

The thought that there are regions in the universe which might be in a state of permanent pure extreme conscious suffering is philosophically shocking! At least with human suffering, we know that we will die one day, so the suffering is not permanent. But what if there are states of eternal suffering? Like the religious concept of hell.

 

Did you ever see that 1997 Sci Fi movie called Event Horizon? It's about a spaceship equipped with warp drive, which could travel by entering a subspace dimension of spacetime. Unfortunately for the crew of the spaceship, when they entered this dimension of subspace, they accidentally arrived in hell, and were tormented beyond measure!

 

So the concept of the movie is that hell may be a real place in the universe, in which there exists only pure torment. It's conceptually a rather scary movie.

 

 

 

But in terms of physics, what is pure suffering of a conscious being or entity? If consciousness is a fundamental attribute of the universe, part of the bedrock of the cosmos, what does it mean when that bedrock is in a state of suffering? What is happening when consciousness itself is in a state of tormented suffering? 

 

Some scientific theories of consciousness equate it to the quantum wave function. In other words, the quantum waves that underly matter are themselves conscious.

 

Well, if consciousness is quantum wave, like a sound wave, we might make an analogy to music: some sounds are harmonious, but other sounds are discordant. Perhaps suffering of conscious beings occurs when discordant quantum waves are created. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 24 March 2024 - 07:11 PM.

[pamojja]

Did this infection give you a permanently weak or frail disposition, and as a result, poor physical and/or mental health throughout life?

It did continue with almost continuous infections in early childhood, culminating with meningitis at 7. With a not really warm reception by immature parents. Rather, perceived as a heavy chore, traumatizing them. I still carry the black sheep label of my family. Many with such cold childhoods would have broken lifelines afterwords. Due to some unfathomable influence, some won't.
 
As in my case, I became very resilient instead. Though I went through deep periods of grief, depression, on the other hand, I never experienced. Youth was healthy, but already as young adult suffered many tropical infections again, and short thereafter chronic diseases co-conditioned by all those before. Which symptoms were brought and kept in remission. Throughout experienced happiness out of nowhere. But rather, by being in sort of a 'flow' state, temporarily.
 
Also got chalk teeth from the treatment of tetracycline as newborn, so to speak: toothless, but nevertheless always enthusiastically living, or in this case fighting diseases. Successfully til now.
 
With more than 3 years of whole-time meditation, I experienced much unconscious trauma with terrible psychotic states of mind. But also learned a way to kindly attend to them. To an extent, I'm firmly convinced I could die in peace any day.
 

The thought that there are regions in the universe which might be in a state of permanent pure extreme conscious suffering is philosophically shocking! At least with human suffering, we know that we will die one day, so the suffering is not permanent. But what if there are states of eternal suffering? Like the religious concept of hell.

 
The good news first. All conditioned things are impermanent. They arise due to the assembly of certain conditions, by natural disassembly they pass. There is no 'thing' eternal.

 

However, there are timescales so huge, practically from the human standpoint have to appear more than 'eternal'. Chronic mental and physical pain practically from the human perspective is 'eternal', by concepts, appearing solid.
 

The Buddha thought a lot about the problem of human suffering; but there is not much in his writings on this subject that really enlightens.

 
Dependent Origination is the easy and at the same time too profound realization of the Buddha to this subject. At first, he resigned to share, because none could understand. But then, according to myth, got talked into by Brahma, because there would be a very few with only little sand in their eyes. Sand in this context is ignorance, and otherwise, taking the inner dialog's concepts as solid.
 

Upanisa Sutta, Samyutta Nikaya XII:
 
'Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean
 
- in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality- materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering,
 
- suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquility, tranquility is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers).

 

In the case of this being over the top of one's hat - nowadays neuroscience with newly discovered neuroplasticity of the human brain, could point to a down to earth approach, wiping off some of the sand in one's eyes.

 

Just a random podcast about, I recently run across, and outlines the rational and silly small steps which could change one's outlook, piece by piece.

 

 

It's as easy as nowadays flying to distant countries.

 

But as difficult, or rather impossible to reach, without the first tiny step.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 24 March 2024 - 08:59 PM.

[Hip]

With more than 3 years of whole-time meditation, I experienced much unconscious trauma with terrible psychotic states of mind. But also learned a way to kindly attend to them.

 
Are you still suffering from psychosis now? If so, you might like to look into very low doses of the third generation antipsychotic amisulpride. These third generation drugs work by a new mechanism of dopamine stabilisation, so can be thought of as "intelligent" adaptive drugs (they block strong dopamine signalling, but allow less strong dopamine signalling through).

 

I found very low dose amisulpride 12.5 mg daily was wonderful for my mild psychosis, my social withdrawal, my depression, and sound sensitivity. This dose is 100 times smaller than the 1200 mg full dose for schizophrenia. I have a thread about the amisulpride wonder drug here.

 

What I like about amisulpride is that it has a very natural feel, more like a supplement than a drug. Of course, antipsychotics have a high risk of serious side effects, but taking very low doses should greatly reduce those risks.

 

 

 

The good news first. All conditioned things are impermanent. They arise due to the assembly of certain conditions, by natural disassembly they pass. There is no 'thing' eternal.

 

That may be true, but the some of the mystics tell us that each moment we experience is eternal, and this they say is how we all have eternal life, as each moment we live is forever reflected in timless eternity.

 

Which is great if your life is filled with moments of happiness and bliss. But maybe not so great for people who have a life of torture! Of course, the mystics are only guessing, so they may not be correct. 

 

 

The great German mystic Meister Eckhart contended that only the present moment is real (very similar to Zen concepts); he said the past and future are just thoughts that exist within the eternal present moment. He said that someone who has full conscious awareness of the present moment transcends time and lives from the timeless perspective of eternity.

 

This is what I have actually felt when I did a lot Zen and Buddhist mindfulness meditation: I started to get a feeling that my conscious awareness was looking down upon the world from the timeless position of eternity. Like as if my conscious originated from outside of time. Just a feeling of course; I cannot prove that this timeless feeling reflects the reality. Maybe the feeling is illusory. 

 

Though philosophically I do like the idea that human consciousness (and consciousness in general) is a view on the physical world from the timeless perspective of eternity. That is to say, consciousness is what happens when eternity takes a peek at a particular moment in space and time.

 

 

Eckhart I understand is highly regarded by Buddhist mystics. The Buddhists usually look down upon European religions, because they see European faiths as lacking in the spiritual and mystical dimension. But the Buddhists see Eckhart as an exception, and consider his meditative states to be as profound any found in Buddhism. 

 

Indeed, I found Eckhart to be equally profound to all the Zen Buddhism literature I enjoyed reading. 

 

Interestingly, Eckhart makes a distinction between God and the Godhead. The Godhead he equates with the philosophical concept of the eternal and timeless Absolute. Whereas God is merely a living being who exists within the Absolute, just as we humans do. 

 

Eckhart would state that when trying to focus on the Absolute during meditation, God will often get in the way, and so God has to be pushed aside. This of course did not go down very well with the Church authorities, and Eckhart when he was 60 was brought before the Inquisition, who were concerned he was spreading unorthodox heresy. Luckily though, his deep knowledge of the Christian scriptures saved him, and he was exonerated. 

 

I do like Eckhart's distinction between God and the Godhead. When I've done Zen meditation, it is the Absolute that you focus on. Nothing is greater than the Absolute, so through this meditation you are resting your mind on the deepest foundations of the cosmos. Whereas if you pray to God, you are merely talking to another being, and not aligning with the deepest foundations.

 

 

Edited by Hip, 24 March 2024 - 09:52 PM.

[pamojja]

 Are you still suffering from psychosis now?

 

Only in a meditation monastery more than 20 years ago, and there also only on the meditation cushion. Which must sound sort of ridiculous, for someone suffering from real schizophrenia. But since I didn't move for hours at that time from the cushion, the hallucination with emotional turmoil also lasted for hours at a time.

 

Much later, only once in a psychotherapy training supervision, where I fell into a serious flight of thoughts. The teacher only meant: such empathy-accidents could happen in therapeutic training - I should take just some spicy food at lunch, if that doesn't work he would box it out of me, jokingly (he does box for his workout). Wasn't necessary.

 

Flashbacks too, but had no problem with.

 

Eckhart I understand is highly regarded by Buddhist mystics. The Buddhists usually look down upon European religions,

 

Funny. I always went from the conversations in the holy books to the conclusion, that Buddhism is the only tradition which accepts, that there are only few with little dust in their eye. Therefore with no real missionary agenda for the whole of a population. Still likely to engage in a rational debate, never looking down on those with other perspectives, but with kindness only. Even with materialist, which 5000 years ago in ancient India was one of the Indian spiritual traditions.

 

And only because of this universal acceptance and respect from all school of thoughts without arrogance, I wouldn't be ashamed off, as of all other 'ultimate truth' traditions.
 

While the Abrahamic traditions would threaten everyone, who doesn't believe in the one and only God, with hell and forever.

 

But as already pointed out, all traditions have been exploited for creating division. Theravada too, as the military junta does in Myanmar. While torturing even monks who don't go along. Not to talk of wrongly understood Vajra- and Mahayana (which Zen is part of).

 

 Of course, the mystics are only guessing, so they may not be correct.

 

Real mystic don't guess, they experience, which can hardly be expressed in any language, due to its grammarly limitation of past, present, or future. It's but the listener's guess what it could mean without such refined experience, and therefore most likely mere solid concept, thereby incorrect.

 

 I found Eckhart to be equally profound to all the Zen Buddhism literature I enjoyed reading.

 

When young, yes, I enjoyed Eckhart too. But soon came the time to lay down all books and intellectual entertainment. Instead of taking first tiny steps towards. Where after one only looks in books for further instructions on the path.

 

Eating the cake, instead of guessing how it tastes from descriptions of others. Only good for spiritual diarrhea (see above: cutting through spiritual materialism).

 

 

I started to get a feeling that my conscious awareness was looking down upon the world from the position of eternity.

 

And? Did it last? - If not? Why not?

 

 

The Godhead he equates with the philosophical concept of the eternal and timeless Absolute.

 

No such thing other than through gradually evolving in space and time. And a lot of patience and persistence too. No shortcuts. Not even possible to conceptualize.

 

Feel free to disagree.

 

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 24 March 2024 - 11:32 PM.

[Hip]

While the Abrahamic traditions would threaten everyone, who doesn't believe in the one and only God, with hell and forever.

 
I don't think that is directly to do with religion, but occurs because of a desire for social conformity. In order for a society to function with harmony, the government wants a certain amount of social cohesion and conformity. Now some religions such as Christianity are also theocracies; ie, they are religions, but also at the same time they are means of governing people. So under theocratic religions, conformity is imposed.
 
You find the same threats against people expressing unorthodox thoughts from atheist philosophies such as communism. The phrase "politically correct" actually comes from Soviet communism: it means that what you are saying may be true, but it runs against the communist philosophy of the government, and therefore we do not allow you to say it. What you think may be factually correct, but it is not politically correct; and if it is not politically correct, it becomes forbidden. 
 
And even today, we see how the liberal elite which currently run the Western world use political correctness to attack and silence people who express thoughts contrary to mainstream liberal thinking. The Church had the Inquisition, whereas liberals use cancel culture, where they fire you from your job and prevent you from speaking publicly. That is the modern Inquisition. 
 
So maintaining orthodox thought amongst the population has a long history, and occurs in religions as well as atheist philosophies. 
 

In religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, these were not really theocratic, so there was no need to impose an orthodoxy. Indeed, as I am sure you know, Hinduism is just a name given by British colonialists; but in fact there was no name for this religion in India, as each village and region had its own religious traditions which were different from the traditions of the next village. So there was no overarching religious dogma.
 
I am not a great fan of Hinduism. I like yoga, and I enjoyed reading the Bhagavad Gita, especially the story of Arjuna, which is a great way to express spiritually why war against you fellow man is sometimes necessary, and must be undertaken with the highest spiritual motivations. 
 
But I tend to relate more to Buddhism, simply because this is a religion which tends not to claim it has all the answers, but likes to explore the spiritual world. Buddhism is thus one of the most mystical religions. So in some ways, this is quite scientific: exploring the depths of consciousness to see what might be there, without any assumptions being made. That's the approach I like. 
 
But even Buddhism is full of scriptures and many dos and don'ts. I do not have much interest in following Buddhist dogma or scriptures, or any other religious dogma. Instead I like to explore consciousness more like a scientist or philosopher, to see what can be observed within the conscious mind, without imposing too many preconceived ideas. What I take from Buddhism is the meditation techniques it offers, not its scriptures.

 

 

Real mystic don't guess, they experience, which can hardly be expressed in any language, due to its grammarly limitation of past, present, or future.

 
Mystics tend to create a framework of concepts that they believe might explain their mental experiences. This includes Buddhist mystics, who have created many religious concepts for which there is no real evidence. These concepts are always a guess. 
 
Given that we know the human mind can hallucinate things which do not exist in the real world, even the experienced we have in our minds cannot be relied upon as being real.


 

When young, yes, I enjoyed Eckhart too. But soon came the time to lay down all books and intellectual entertainment. Instead of taking first tiny steps towards. Where after one only looks in books for further instructions on the path.

If we are talking about trying to understand consciousness, then there are two approaches: the direct approach which aims to put consciousness under the microscope by direct experience in meditation (or for some people, by using psychedelic drugs).

But then there is the indirect intellectual approach, which involves the use of ideas and concepts to try to grasp consciousness.

I agree that ultimately the nature of consciousness might be beyond the ability of words or concepts to grasp; but I see a lot of value in the intellectual approach, provided you acknowledge these limitations.

 

We see a similar thing in quantum mechanics: as soon as you try to grasp the system under observation by measuring it, the very act of measuring destroys the original state of the system. And so you can never bring back knowledge of the quantum world into the regular world we live in. This is just something that you have to accept. 

 

Another example is people who take very strong psychedelics like DMT or Salvia divinorum: they often state that the knowledge and understanding they have gained under the influence of the psychedelic drug is impossible to bring back into regular world. This is because the knowledge is beyond words, concepts or any forms, and cannot be encoded or translated into words. 

 

So it may be that the ultimate truth of the universe is beyond reason and conceptual thinking. 

 

Plato also describes a similar situation in his three worlds philosophy: he talks about the regular physical world we live in, then the world of forms (like concepts, words, and mathematical ideas), and finally the world which is beyond all forms or description, which he calls the chora. 

 

Plato says human beings are creatures who simultaneously live in all three worlds: we live in the physical world, but through or minds we can contact the word of forms. A mathematician spends all his working life in the world of forms. Then finally, our spiritual selves, the part of us beyond all forms and descriptions, live in the chora.

 

 

For me the direct experience approach and the indirect intellectual conceptual approach are like having two arms and hands to try to grasp the subject matter.

 

Furthermore — and this is important — maintaining a rational intellectual perspective rooted in the regular physical world keeps you honest. Some spiritual people rely only on their subjective mental experiences, and start to ignore the physical world we live in. These purely subjective people may then go on to create a fantasy world of spiritual ideas in which they live. They then start to believe more in their fantasy world than the everyday physical world. In this way, they become dishonest or deluded. If we take our cue from Plato, he says humans live in three worlds simultaneously, so maybe we should give equal attention to all three worlds. 

 

You also get the reverse problem, where some people live all their lives in the world of forms, and never cultivate a spiritual dimension. Some scientists are like this: unfortunately they get trapped in the world of forms, and cannot conceive the world in anything other than rational terms. This is especially true these days, as religion is in decline in Europe, so less people get the opportunity to cultivate their spiritual side to their mind.

But I guess it really comes down to what each of us enjoys, and I can understand how some people might prefer one approach over the other.


 

And? Did it last? - If not? Why not?

Those beautiful moments of feeling that you are viewing the world from a timeless perspective are only brief and fleeting. They might only last for 10 or 20 minutes, perhaps appearing shortly after a good meditation session. They are wonderful when you have them, but they are soon gone. However I find you still maintain a poised perceptual, emotional and intellectual perspective for several days after each mindfulness meditation session. 

This is completely normal. Every meditation teacher will tell you that you have to meditate regularly in order to maintain that poised perspective. If you stop meditating, you soon lose a lot of your spiritual gains. So even the greatest Zen meditators of history will spend their whole life regularly meditating. 

 

No different to say exercise: you will soon lose your rippling muscles if you stop going to the gym.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 25 March 2024 - 12:23 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

During this hyper-religious state, I also started to experience paranormal events: I started to routinely predict my immediate future.

 

For example, I would be preparing to go out for the eventing, and then a thought would spontaneously flash across my mind: "you are going to meet a French girl tonight". I would forget about this thought, and just go out and enjoy myself socially. Then later on in the evening, I would find myself chatting to a girl, and I would say "where are you from?". Then when they answered "France", I would suddenly remember my earlier prediction.

 

These paranormal events kept happening to me: I kept getting very precise premonitions of what was going to happen to me in the next few hours. Having studied quantum physics at university, I started to wonder whether my unbalanced brain was sucking in information from the near future, through some quantum phenomenon (eg quantum entanglement across temporal intervals). 

 

The concept of precognition comes to mind when reading that. It is considered kind of a pseudoscience, of course, but I think the nature of precognition is something that would be very hard to measure and thus prove. Once you start measuring things, you affect them. So the mystery wants to remain hidden in a sense. Personally I've had a few dreams that predicted some life events in surprisingly accurate fashion.

 

Precognition has a role in Buddhism with dreams believed to be 'mind-created phenomena'. Those dreams which 'warn of impending danger or even prepare us for overwhelming good news" are considered the most important.[9]

→ source (external link)

 

The movie Minority Report (2002) plays around with the idea, stopping crimes before they take place. It's a pretty good movie.

 

Very good discussion going here, need to have closer look to your long posts. 

Edited by Galaxyshock, 25 March 2024 - 05:30 AM.

[pamojja]

First you retold your really sad story, of being cut off from any direct experience for many years:
 

Ever since being cut off from my spiritual energies, I have simply wished for death,

 
 Then you conceptualize a two-handed, balanced approach:
 

For me the direct experience approach and the indirect intellectual conceptual approach are like having two arms and hands to try to grasp the subject matter.
 
Furthermore — and this is important — maintaining a rational intellectual perspective rooted in the regular physical world keeps you honest. .

But I guess it really comes down to what each of us enjoys, and I can understand how some people might prefer one approach over the other.
 
No different to say exercise: you will soon lose your rippling muscles if you stop going to the gym.

 
Which you actually never lived:
 

Those beautiful moments of feeling that you are viewing the world from a timeless perspective are only brief and fleeting. They might only last for 10 or 20 minutes,

 
Even when it occurred with shiploads of preconceptions mingled, still not balanced many years ago, but at a mere 1-2% of the time of a day.
 

That is the problem with the intellectual entertainment approach only: It falsifies everything, just as its not through direct experience validated concepts do.
 

But even Buddhism is full of scriptures and many dos and don'ts. I do not have much interest in following Buddhist dogma or scriptures, or any other religious dogma.

 

The Buddhist invitation is to try one by one the accruing benefits of each conditioning steps on the noble-eightfold path:

1. Wholesome view
2. ..resolve
3. ..speech
4. ..conduct
5. ..livelihood
6. ..effort
7. ..mindfulness
8. and wholesome samadhi

 

You dismissed this most balanced invitation for at least trialing those wholesome steps one by one (and thereby their benefits), and only wanted to have its last fruit. Which only becomes wholesome by all the former benefits in nuanced mental fortitude, dismissed by yourself.

 

 

Therefore, you ended where you started: unwholesome falsifying speech, deluding your intellect-only approach would be somehow balanced.

 

Its tragic.
 

No different to say exercise: you will soon lose your rippling muscles if you stop going to the gym.

 

Your samadhi muscles faded away to naught. Leaving self-contradicting stories. Entertaining maybe, but not worth the paper written on.

 

 

Feel free to dismiss. One wholesome function of the intellect only is to maintain a seemingly congruent self-image for self-protection, due to not being mature to withstand the unknown. And a concomitant anhedonia against overwhelming unknown emotions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 25 March 2024 - 11:25 AM.

[Hip]

Your samadhi muscles faded away to naught. Leaving self-contradicting stories. Entertaining maybe, but not worth the paper written on.

Wow, pamojja, I thought your rudeness only manifested in matters to do with COVID vaccinations; but it seems your contempt for people even appears in discussions on consciousness and spirituality.
 
A spiritual discourse is best conducted in a friendly and enthusiastic manner; rather than belittling other people's spiritual experiences.
 
 
 

Therefore, you ended where you started: unwholesome falsifying speech, deluding your intellect-only approach would be somehow balanced.

More belittling of other people's spiritual experiences.
 

I prefer to discuss the fascinating subjects of neuroscience and the nature of consciousness with with people who are enthusiastic and curious about the subject.  

 

Edited by Hip, 25 March 2024 - 04:54 PM.

[Hip]

The concept of precognition comes to mind when reading that. It is considered kind of a pseudoscience, of course, but I think the nature of precognition is something that would be very hard to measure and thus prove. Once you start measuring things, you affect them. So the mystery wants to remain hidden in a sense. Personally I've had a few dreams that predicted some life events in surprisingly accurate fashion.

 

Yes, I think precognition would be very hard to measure and prove. I take a skeptical scientific stance, even in regard to my own experiences, and wonder if these were really genuine.

 

These precognition experiences only happened to me during this particular period where I was very mentally unbalanced due to the hyper-religiosity psychiatric issue I had at that time. I never had any precognition episodes before or after that period. 

 

 

I can relate to what you say about "Once you start measuring things, you affect them. So the mystery wants to remain hidden in a sense".

 

When I was regularly having these precognition events, it did occur to me to try to exploit them and win the lottery!

 

But the I don't think that would have worked, as these precognition events themselves were kind of almost subliminal, and so kind of unmeasured. 

 

My precognition events were not visual, they were expressed in sentences or ideas that randomly popped into my head, but in a fleeting manner, which I never paid attention to when they occurred.

 

So in some sense, because I paid no attention, they remained unmeasured. They were just brief thoughts subliminally floating through my stream of consciousness, without me focusing on them or taking note of them at the time they occurred. It was only when the precognition prediction actually manifested some hours later that I focused attention on them.

 

So my feeling is that had I deliberately tried to focus on the precognitions, in order to exploit them for winning the lottery, that might be akin to an act of measurement, which might then destroy the effect. 

 

 

I do confess to having an interest in parapsychology, have attended talks and lectures of the subject. But I agree that it's probably mostly pseudoscience. And also the study of parapsychology is complicated by the fact that you get so many frauds entering the field, like Uri Geller.

 

James Randi has done great work in exposing these frauds. 

Edited by Hip, 25 March 2024 - 05:24 PM.

[pamojja]

I said: feel free to disregard.

 

.. your contempt for people
 
... belittling other people's spiritual experiences.

 

Surely no contempt for people, or even their practice, from my side. But I have to say what might have been wrongly understood, and what might have been right.

 

It was only a constructive criticism of behavior, not a person. Just disregard my honesty, if you can't make good use of it for yourself. It wasn't my intent to hurt, but to help. Not only you, but any other too, who might be misguided by your interpretation. Sorry for that misunderstanding.

 

 

We are all very much aware how much you suffered through your spiritual crisis, and think we all do regret such ever happened. Most likely through the lack of skilled meditation guidance. Just as it happens also all too often in my practice tradition.

 

I'm just so fed up seeing people that often hurt, by what - if applied skillfully - would really be beneficial only.

 

 

Here the definition of Samma Samadhi's 4 Jhanas from wikipedia, so you can decide for yourself, if you interpreted your experience right. If you want to.
 

 

1. First jhāna: Separated (vivicceva) from desire for sensual pleasures, separated (vivicca) from [other] unwholesome states (akusalehi dhammehi, unwholesome dhammas^[25]), a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is [mental] pīti ("rapture," "joy") and [bodily] sukha ("pleasure") "born of viveka" (traditionally, "seclusion"; alternatively, "discrimination" (of dhamma's)^{[26][note 6]}), accompanied by vitarka-vicara (traditionallly, initial and sustained attention to a meditative object; alternatively, initial inquiry and subsequent investigation^[29][30][31] of dhammas (defilements^[32] and wholesome thoughts^{[33][note 7]}); also: "discursive thought"^{[note 8]}).
2. Second jhāna: Again, with the stilling of vitarka-vicara, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the second jhana, which is [mental] pīti and [bodily] sukha "born of samadhi" (samadhi-ji; trad. born of "concentration"; altern. "knowing but non-discursive [...] awareness,"^[41] "bringing the buried latencies or samskaras into full view"^{[42][note 9]}), and has sampasadana ("stillness,"^[44] "inner tranquility"^{[39][note 10]}) and ekaggata (unification of mind,^[44] awareness) without vitarka-vicara;
3. Third jhāna: With the fading away of pīti, a bhikkhu abides in upekkhā (equanimity," "affective detachment"^{[39][note 11]}), sato (mindful) and [with] sampajañña ("fully knowing,"^[45] "discerning awareness"^[46]). [Still] experiencing sukha with the body, he enters upon and abides in the third jhana, on account of which the noble ones announce, "abiding in [bodily] pleasure, one is equanimous and mindful".
4. Fourth jhāna: With the abandoning of [the desire for] sukha ("pleasure") and [aversion to] dukkha ("pain"^[47][46]) and with the previous disappearance of [the inner movement between] somanassa ("gladness,"^[48]) and domanassa ("discontent"^[48]), a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which is adukkham asukham ("neither-painful-nor-pleasurable,"^[47] "freedom from pleasure and pain"^[49]) and has upekkhāsatipārisuddhi (complete purity of equanimity and mindfulness).^{[note 12]}

 

 

One enters the 1. Jhana when the 5 hindrances to meditation have temporarily ceased only (doubt, sloth and torpor, heedlessness, restlessness and worry, craving and aversion).

 

The 2. is already without any discursive thought, which in your description, if understood right, was still present at that time.

 

 

Despite practicing zazen and mindfulness, you said you don't really like the practice of the Buddhist tradition. So then just disregard, since it anyway doesn't apply to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pamojja]

Just in case of a spiritual emergency - and because they occur indeed that often - there is an international spiritual emergency network trying to provide assistance and support: https://www.spiritua...ncenetwork.org/
 

 
And because various transient, but fascinating experiences of mindfulness meditation already mentioned, might turn into corruptions of meditation, if mistaken:
 

    vipassanūpakkilesa*

    'Defilements of insight meditation',

    Vis XX calls the following 10 mental things that arise to the meditator at an advanced level of mindfullness meditation, while by means of insight (vipassanā) he recognizes the formations as impermanent etc.. He may mistake these mental processes for signs of attaining sainthood and thus become an obstacle:

        luminosity (obhāsa)
        psychic knowledge (ñāna)
        rapture (pīti)
        serenity (passaddhi)
        pleasure (sukha)
        extreme conviction (adhi-mokkha)
        excessive effort (paggaha)
        obsession (upatthāna)
        indifference (upekkhā)
        contentment (nikanti)

    Of course, these ten are not 'defilements' in themselves, but only become so through their wrong judgment and the conceit that arises as a result, which in turn leads to the interruption of insight practice and thus represents an element of restlessness (uddhacca) and distraction (vikkhepa).
 

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

ñāna, might also include clairvoyance.

[adamh]

Hip wrote:

 

"But certainly there are areas of the world which are naturally more spiritual. And intriguingly, if you look at areas of the globe which are strongly spiritual or religious (such as California, Israel..."

 

California seems to be mostly nuts and kooks, the rational ones are trying to leave. Isreal? yeah they are really spiritual aren't they? Is genocide part of their religion? Seems like it

 

Edited by adamh, 29 March 2024 - 07:35 PM.

[Hip]

Despite practicing zazen and mindfulness, you said you don't really like the practice of the Buddhist tradition.

 
I have the greatest of respect for people that follow the traditions and guidance of a religion. That includes all the major religions.

 

However, personally I don't like to align to or identify with any particular religion. I find I obtain a deeper understanding when I read multiple different religions. This allows me to see the commonalities between different religions, and see how the same fundamental concepts are expressed in different ways in different faiths. In this way, it is like viewing the same scene from multiple angles, so that you get a 3D picture of the scene.

 

Of course, if I speak to any people who are aligned to a particular religion, they often find my approach confusing or even anathema. They would find it confusing to jump between one religion and another. But I enjoy taking a broad view, and get a lot out of doing this. 

 

And when trying to get an understanding of difficult concepts such as consciousness, the soul, mind versus matter, etc, for me I also am very interested in what academic subjects like philosophy, psychology, physics, quantum theory, transfinite mathematics, and biology have to say on these concepts. So that broadens the approach even more. 

 

 

Religions as well as academic subjects are manmade, and so are subject to flaws and errors. Thus while I might find these religions as well as academic subjects very inspiring, I love the ideas and concepts they offer, I never assume that they are true. I use my own intuition to decide what I think might be true. 

 

That makes my "seeker" approach different to the approach of people who subscribe to a particular religion. People who align to a particular religion tend to believe all the tenets of that religion, and they do not like anyone questioning those tenets. But for me, anything a religion says it interesting, but is just speculative and provisional. Religions are man's attempts at understanding the transcendental, and must be understood as just attempts, rather than the final word.

 

Anyone else who is a seeker rather than a subscriber to a specific religion will understand my approach.   

 

I find these subjects so beautiful, so incredible to think about, so awe-inspiring, that I would not want to limit myself to just one religion or area of literature. I want to try to encompass it all, and see all the links between one religion and the next, or indeed between religion and the mind-bending concepts of modern sciences such as quantum mechanics. 

 

 

 

Zen by the way does not consider itself a religion. In fact, the definition of the nature of Zen is itself an unanswerable Zen question. Zen would never limit itself by defining itself in any finite terms.

 

So although Zen arose out of Buddhism, it is rather different to standard Buddhist practices. Zen really is the pure mystical essence of religion or pure essence spirituality, with all the complicated ornamentation that religions involve stripped away. 

 

This is what attracts me to Zen, as it is the purest most uncomplicated and unadorned form of spiritual practise. And very down-to-Earth too: Zen does not create or focus on all the complicated detail you see in major religions; instead, Zen focuses on the simplicity of daily life. Doing the washing up can be totally Zen, if done with full conscious attention. 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 01 April 2024 - 05:56 AM.

[pamojja]

As said before, in the tradition I practice with, beside investigators of own experience, there are also followers out of believe.
 
I of course do respect all, including non-followers. Each has good reasons for their chosen path. And so do I, by testing beliefs on the anvil of experience, to see if they are worth their weight, for my path.

 

It seems to me that all sciences are vain and full of errors unless they are born of experience, the mother of all certainty.

 

Leonardo da Vinci

 

Without investigating experience - even a comprehensive comparative interpretation - remains what is meant as a following out of believe. Nevertheless, a very valid chosen path from my perspective.

 

Edited by pamojja, 01 April 2024 - 10:28 AM.

[pamojja]

.. a following out of believe. Nevertheless, a very valid chosen path from my perspective.

 

Would, however, recommend the follower of any or no path ask himself the also valid question from actual direct experience after some time: Did it make me happier?
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 01 April 2024 - 12:13 PM.

[adamh]

 

Would, however, recommend the follower of any or no path ask himself the also valid question from actual direct experience after some time: Did it make me happier?
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is happiness the goal? It seems like a worthwhile state to be in, we all want happiness in some form or another. Is happiness the same as pleasure? We are happy when pleased, when experiencing pleasure but the pursuit of pleasure is a dead end. I think it matters how the pleasant experience is produced. If with drugs alone, the brain and body becomes burned out after a while and misery follows.

 

If you find pleasure in solving problems, in working toward a goal and achieving it, or in making a relationship work, that seems more like happiness than a sudden rush from getting a big raise, or snorting a line. The things you work for can bring happiness, the things that are too easy, don't always turn out to be valuable

 

However, what you may be getting at is, 'is what you are doing making any difference in your life'? You can feel it if something is working and if it isn't. Of course that requires some self awareness

[pamojja]

You can feel it if something is working and if it isn't. Of course that requires some self awareness

 

That's why I ignored my first impulse, to spell it out.

 

 

For me it's being at peace, by having followed one's heart. To the extent, one can die any moment without regrets.

 

In Jiddu Krishnamurti's words: 'bringing order in one's relationships'.

 

Also in line with the Buddha, though such logic probably too abstract for many to comprehend:

 

Lawfulness of Progress, Anguttara Nikaya X, 1-2:

 

For one who is virtuous and endowed with virtue (Sila), there is no need for an act of will: 'May non-remorse arise in me!' It is a natural law, monks, that non-remorse (Kusala-sañña) will arise in one who is virtuous.

 

- For one free of remorse, there is no need for an act of will: 'May gladness arise in me!' It is a natural law that gladness (Pamojja) will arise in one who is free from remorse.

 

- For one who is glad at heart, there is no need for an act of will: 'May joy arise in me!' It is a natural law that joy (Piti) will arise in one who is glad at heart.

 

- For one who is joyful, there is no need for an act of will: 'May my body be serene!' It is a natural law that the body will be serene (Passaddhi) for one who is joyful.

 

- For one of serene body, there is no need for an act of will: 'May I feel happiness!' It is a natural law that one who is serene will feel happiness (Sukha).

 

- ...

Where happiness from sense objects is differentiated to pleasure from mental objects.

 

Or in Shunryu Suzuki's words (zen mind, beginners mind): “Treat every moment as your last. It is not preparation for something else.”

 

 

 

[Galaxyshock]

You can buy pleasure, but you can't buy happiness.

 

Back in the city now, had a nice trip to the country side. Nature setting is therapeutic to the mind in a way that is hard if not impossible to emulate.

 

I think I found the soundtrack I used to listen to a lot back in my "shamanic days":