12 replies to this topic

[EvaWhite]

I've been taking Moda on and off for around a year now (for off-label ADD) from modafinia. I used to take 200 mg every few days, and even sometimes back to back, but generally tried not to do that if I could to avoid tolerance buildup. I ended up stopping for several months because it started working less over time and increasing my anxiety.

Yesterday, for the first time in months, I took 100 mg because I got less than ideal sleep the night before and had a busy day ahead. It was amazing! Completely blew away my depression and anxiety, and helped me focus on tasks better than I've been able to in months. I felt so sharp when learning new things. I wished I could feel like that forever.

Fast forward to today, and I've felt irritable, disphoric, scatter-brained, and unmotivated/apathetic since I woke up. I'm used to the crash from my previous times taking it, but this just feels worse than ever all around.

Obviously, and I think this is the generaly consensus in this sub, Modafinil is not a long term solution to ADD or depression. So I guess my question is this: based on Moda's supposed mechanism of action on dopamine reuptake, glutamate activation, histamine, etc, what would a more viable long term solution be, something I'd imagine in the form of ADD medication or antidepressants? Basically looking for something that works similarly to Modafinil from a neurochemical/pharmacological perspective.

 

[Hip]

If you  want to boost dopamine, you could look at deprenyl (selegiline) or moclobemide, which are both MAO inhibitors. With deprenyl, I found you need to take this before bed, and it will then start having antidepressant effects when you wake up the next morning, effects which last the whole day. 

 

Wellbutrin is another good antidepressant, which boosts both dopamine and epinephrine. 

 

Saffron has also been demonstrated as effective as pharmaceutical antidepressants in multiple review studies. Some people find high dose fish oil works for their depression. 5-HTP is a good antidepressant supplement. Taking active folates such as folinic acid can help depression. 

[EvaWhite]

If you  want to boost dopamine, you could look at deprenyl (selegiline) or moclobemide, which are both MAO inhibitors. With deprenyl, I found you need to take this before bed, and it will then start having antidepressant effects when you wake up the next morning, effects which last the whole day. 

 

Wellbutrin is another good antidepressant, which boosts both dopamine and epinephrine. 

 

Saffron has also been demonstrated as effective as pharmaceutical antidepressants in multiple review studies. Some people find high dose fish oil works for their depression. 5-HTP is a good antidepressant supplement. Taking active folates such as folinic acid can help depression. 

How do you take saffron

[Hip]

How do you take saffron

 

I just measure out 100 mg of Spanish Saffron stamens on my scale, put them in my mouth, and drink some water and swallow. Make sure you don't buy fake saffron (see YouTube for videos showing how to detect fake saffron). You can also buy Saffron as a supplement in capsules. 

 

Antidepressant effects kick in after about 2 hours, and last for about 6 to 8 hours. 

[gamesguru]

With deprenyl, I found you need to take this before bed, and it will then start having antidepressant effects when you wake up the next morning, effects which last the whole day.

 

Wait, you guys are getting sleep?
 

 

[Galaxyshock]

Wait, you guys are getting sleep?
 

 

Nah, sleeping is for babies. When you grow up, you drink beer until you pass out for the rest.

 

Regarding Modafinil, I always felt it quite weak as a stimulant. I felt like I still needed caffeine on top of it. Are any of the analogs stronger, Adrafinil?

[gamesguru]

Never tried Modafinil; have heard good and bad about it.  iirc it's used a lot by truck drivers working long hours.

 

I found it surprising someone was recommending Deprenyl before bed.  Especially with low tolerance, this is a good way to miss out on a night of sleep. Better to take it in the first few hours of the morning.

[Galaxyshock]

 

Never tried Modafinil; have heard good and bad about it.  iirc it's used a lot by truck drivers working long hours.

 

I found it surprising someone was recommending Deprenyl before bed.  Especially with low tolerance, this is a good way to miss out on a night of sleep. Better to take it in the first few hours of the morning.

 

 

I've heard they also use Modafinil in the army when the soldiers need to stay awake and alert for several days.

 

Some people feel calm from dopaminergics. Dopamine has both excitatory and inhibitory properties so it's not unheard of. I haven't tried Deprenyl personally though.

 

"Modafinil is a wonder drug... until it isn't"

 

Many drugs are wonder drugs in the honeymoon period. Like benzos being the wonder drug for every ailment in the 60s until they were discovered to cause horrible withdrawals from long-term use.

[Daniel Cooper]

You're almost never going to beat the drive to homeostasis creating tolerance in anything that is dosed daily or even very frequently.

 

Sad but true.

 

 

[Galaxyshock]

You're almost never going to beat the drive to homeostasis creating tolerance in anything that is dosed daily or even very frequently.

 

Sad but true.

 

Yup there is tendency towards that, which is the reason I try to take the stronger nootropics and other substances infrequently or cycle them.

 

We also have the class of adaptogens, which leave you with better homeostasis once tolerance builds.

 

So ideally they work something like this:

https://i.shgcdn.com...uality/lighter/

 

Of course adaptogens don't work for all people, whereas something like Modafinil probably promotes wakefulness to pretty much every user.

 

Perhaps one the reasons for "slowdown" in nootropic movement is the homeostasis factor, we can only hack the brain to certain extent with the currently available substances. Some don't find it worthwhile whereas some do benefit greatly despite the challenges. Personally I remain enthusiastic that there are strategies to safely improve brain chemistry, but certain level of skepticism has taken place over the years. 

[fall]

I've been taking Moda on and off for around a year now (for off-label ADD) from modafinia. I used to take 200 mg every few days, and even sometimes back to back, but generally tried not to do that if I could to avoid tolerance buildup. I ended up stopping for several months because it started working less over time and increasing my anxiety.
Yesterday, for the first time in months, I took 100 mg because I got less than ideal sleep the night before and had a busy day ahead. It was amazing! Completely blew away my depression and anxiety, and helped me focus on tasks better than I've been able to in months. I felt so sharp when learning new things. I wished I could feel like that forever.
Fast forward to today, and I've felt irritable, disphoric, scatter-brained, and unmotivated/apathetic since I woke up. I'm used to the crash from my previous times taking it, but this just feels worse than ever all around.
Obviously, and I think this is the generaly consensus in this sub, Modafinil is not a long term solution to ADD or depression. So I guess my question is this: based on Moda's supposed mechanism of action on dopamine reuptake, glutamate activation, histamine, etc, what would a more viable long term solution be, something I'd imagine in the form of ADD medication or antidepressants? Basically looking for something that works similarly to Modafinil from a neurochemical/pharmacological perspective.

Respectfully disagree. Modafinil is pretty damn close to being a 'wonder drug' and continues to work well with daily long-term dosing. I have used it daily for over 10 years. It does what it is supposed to do. The tolerance is minimal and insignificant for therapeutic use. Therapeutic doses anyway are ironically more recreational/enjoyable than any attempt at recreational dosing (400mg+), it is not a nice feeling at very high doses and mostly lack the positive reinforcing effect we see in amphetamines.

Have you tried armodafinil? It seems to work slightly better albeit quite interchangeable with modafinil. Or high dose modafinil? I tend to require 200-300mg modafinil or 150-225mg in order to feel well morning-night.

Also make sure you are otherwise healthy(eating, sleeping well on most days, no alcohol...). Modafinil is great after sleep-deprivation. But only once in a while. This is obviously not a drug to encourage sleep-deprivation lol. Once too sleep-deprived modafinil barely becomes noticeable, if anything it exasperates sleep-deprivation by not allowing you to fall asleep, making you nervous, anxious etc. Modafinil seems to work much better if body is free from alcohol. It does little to help a hungover, unlike some other stimulants. A nice thing about modafinil is that less caffeine is needed. Caffeine and modafinil works great together. Be careful about mixing modafinil with other stimulants, it might be fun at first in smaller doses but it can easily become overwhelming and extremely uncomfortable, possibly dangerous (blood pressure problems, severe insomnia, psychosis etc).

Wait, you guys are getting sleep?

Sleep is for pussies who can't go a year with no sleep without seeing shadow men

Nah, sleeping is for babies. When you grow up, you drink beer until you pass out for the rest.

Regarding Modafinil, I always felt it quite weak as a stimulant. I felt like I still needed caffeine on top of it. Are any of the analogs stronger, Adrafinil?

Armodafinil is the R-enantiomer of modafinil (which is both R and S). It appears to be a little more noticeable and also last a couple of hours more.

Edited by fall, 19 January 2025 - 11:40 PM.

[8bitmore]

[...]

 

Perhaps one the reasons for "slowdown" in nootropic movement is the homeostasis factor, we can only hack the brain to certain extent with the currently available substances. Some don't find it worthwhile whereas some do benefit greatly despite the challenges. Personally I remain enthusiastic that there are strategies to safely improve brain chemistry, but certain level of skepticism has taken place over the years. 

 

I think this is an insightful point - the activity on most (all?) the associated boards/sub-reddits have declined heavily over the years.. homeostasis is no doubt the major player here, as the cohort cycle through the various compounds the enthusiasm naturally declines. It would need an entirely new class of drugs for nootropics to regain momentum. I personally have ended up feeling like basic supplementation and diet/exercise are THE things to look out for - the "exotics" never ended up doing anything for me (except for noticeable experiences of single one-off-ish "OMG this is great" and then a lot more side-effects that have varied from subtle to really quite bad!).

 

On subject: Modafinil makes me feel overtly ill, tested several brands and the result is the same; flu-like discomfort more or less immediately that last for about a day!

[gamesguru]

I think this is an insightful point - the activity on most (all?) the associated boards/sub-reddits have declined heavily over the years.. homeostasis is no doubt the major player here, as the cohort cycle through the various compounds the enthusiasm naturally declines. It would need an entirely new class of drugs for nootropics to regain momentum. I personally have ended up feeling like basic supplementation and diet/exercise are THE things to look out for - the "exotics" never ended up doing anything for me (except for noticeable experiences of single one-off-ish "OMG this is great" and then a lot more side-effects that have varied from subtle to really quite bad!).

 

On subject: Modafinil makes me feel overtly ill, tested several brands and the result is the same; flu-like discomfort more or less immediately that last for about a day!

 

Health, longevity, and bio-hacking are inherently unglamorous subjects that make for poor entertainment or gossip. Even if life-changing therapies were released today, people would use them but wouldn't build a culture around such discussions. It explains why video game streams are far more popular than tea discussion forums.

The idea that exotics, or anything beyond the basics, are useless or counterproductive depends on how you define exotic. Some people might consider Adderall/amphetamine a "basic" thing, but in the long run, it lowers your baseline while its effects diminish. Others would consider Saffron and Astragalus "exotic," but they have a potential wealth of utility to explore in depression and longevity.

 

Individual reactions vary, but a "flu-like discomfort" sounds unusual. Do you have adverse responses to any other stimulants, supplements, or medications?