26 replies to this topic

[magrus]

Is anyone taking Pram on a regular basis? I've been using Piracetam for about a year and liked the result. Curious about Pram though. Is there any difference besides the strength?
Thanks.

Edited by magrus, 08 October 2006 - 01:16 AM.

[doug123]

From a pharmacological perspective ALL of the 'racetam derivatives have different metabolites and affect receptors in the brain differently; if these drugs all had the exact same pharmacological effects, why would they have been developed in the first place? "Twists on a molecule" often make radically different effects!

You can start with the "natural" molecule pyroglutamic acid.

From this orthomolecule was derived the xenobiotic molecule Piracetam:

After Piracetam earned a well established record of safety (and seemed to be somewhat effective), Oxiracetam, a more potent analogue (on a mg/kg basis) was synthesized:



Oxiracetam has some similar effects as Piracetam, but also significant differences as well.

Enough differences to show better results in clinical studies than Piracetam:

Click here to read oxiracetam research

But the results were still not significant enough to reverse the age associated mental decline and dementia symptoms of elderly folks. So researchers did even more molecule twisting on the Piracetam (and maybe even the Oxiracetam molecule) and eventually came up with Aniracetam...



Then, later, Pramiracetam : and the testicularlly toxic nefricetam:

.

Click here to see the Aniracetam research

Click here to see the Pramiracetam research

Click here to see the testicular toxicity evidence of nefricetam

So the drugs have different, yet distinct effects. What works for me might not work for you.

Still their effects have not warranted approval to treat AD, PD, or dementia.

[mrak1979]

hey mag, can you describe your experience with pram? What have you noticed different about yourself on pram?

[magrus]

hey mag, can you describe your experience with pram? What have you noticed different about yourself on pram?

That was the question. I haven't tried Pram yet.
Nootropikamil, thank you for the info. I'll check it out.

Edited by magrus, 08 October 2006 - 01:15 AM.

[jackinbox]

Nice post nootropikamil. I'm on my third day on pramiracetam (600 mg, in the morning). I can't notice anything yet. I studied for the last three days. I wondering what kind of activity would be the best to notice someting.

[doug123]

I'm on my third day on pramiracetam (600 mg, in the morning). I can't notice anything yet. I studied for the last three days. I wondering what kind of activity would be the best to notice someting.

To aid concentration in schoolwork, I'd suggest getting a legitimate prescription for one of the ADD/ADHD medicines. You can learn more about these here.

[jackinbox]

I'm on my third day on pramiracetam (600 mg, in the morning). I can't notice anything yet. I studied for the last three days. I wondering what kind of activity would be the best to notice someting.

To aid concentration in schoolwork, I'd suggest getting a legitimate prescription for one of the ADD/ADHD medicines. You can learn more about these here.

I'm diagnosed with adhd since about 2 years. I have been so far on: Ritatlin, ritalin SR, dexedrine, Dexedrine spansule, Straterra, Wellbutrin... I tried Modafinil and Adrafinil too. None is truly useful. Caffein remains the most helpful. Pseudoephedrine is nice too but I'm not sure how often I can take it. I may tried ephedrine someday (vasopro) for occasional use but I'm not sure.

[pikatchu]

Is anyone taking Pram on a regular basis? I've been using Piracetam for about a year and liked the result. Curious about Pram though. Is there any difference besides the strength?
Thanks.

I do... pramiracetam is by far (at least for me) the most effective and impressive nootropic I tried... and I tried a lot of them. Those who pretend that other racetam combinations are doing the same had for sure never tried this one. Even piracetam-oxyracetam-aniracetam combinations are by far less effective than pram, without saying they don't provide motivation as pramiracetam does.

[mrak1979]

Pikatchu, can you elaborate on the effects a bit more compared to the pir-anr-oxi stack? And do you get 'emotional bluntness' that I've heard in a few posts? I'm curious about this.

Edited by mrak1979, 10 October 2006 - 06:40 PM.

[doug123]

I've tried Pramiracetam. I've also tried the other racetams. YMMV; but none of these compounds delivered a clinical effect near what I get from Provigil (modafinil).

[magrus]

I do... pramiracetam is by far (at least for me) the most effective and impressive nootropic I tried... and I tried a lot of them.

How long have you been taking it for? And how much?

Pikatchu, can you elaborate on the effects a bit more compared to the pir-anr-oxi stack? And do you get 'emotional bluntness' that I've heard in a few posts? I'm curious about this.

I am curious too.

[pikatchu]

I've tried Pramiracetam.  I've also tried the other racetams.  YMMV; but none of these compounds delivered a clinical effect near what I get from Provigil (modafinil).

I have some concerta, modafinil and dextroamphetamine (my favourite in this class) left in my pharm and I keep them for special purposes: rush of clerical work, document writing and I also like it when I have to talk to a large audience. Those substances are not nootropics as they won’t make anybody smarter, without saying that these are not a healthy choice and controlled substances with serious backlashes when using them on a regular basis. These won’t make you remark subtleties you never seen before, these won’t make you see the geometrics in trees, these won’t make you feel mathematics in music, these won’t make you access new layers of understanding, these won’t make you reinvent the world… these will make you say three times instead of one “I will reinvent the world” but you won’t, too occupied saying that you will.

[pikatchu]

Pikatchu, can you elaborate on the effects a bit more compared to the pir-anr-oxi stack? And do you get 'emotional bluntness' that I've heard in a few posts? I'm curious about this.

I take pram for about a year and a half now but only on workdays… As I work on my own and as my brain is my main work tool, noots are for me an investment.

I would say that basic effects are similar that those of racetams stack but much more pronounced and affecting a wider aspect of cognition, starting with motivation and goal achievement. People who get nothing from regular racetams won’t get anything from pram too… racetams benefits are for reflective persons.

On pram life is an endless contemplation. I would not say that emotions are blunts; I would say that it’s less important. I think this “blunt” slowly disappear with pram experience habit: at the beginning you realize and understand so many things that you don’t have energy to spend on emotions…

[doug123]

I have some concerta, modafinil and dextroamphetamine (my favourite in this class) left in my pharm and I keep them for special purposes: rush of clerical work, document writing and I also like it when I have to talk to a large audience. Those substances are not nootropics as they won’t make anybody smarter, without saying that these are not a healthy choice and controlled substances with serious backlashes when using them on a regular basis. These won’t make you remark subtleties you never seen before, these won’t make you see the geometrics in trees, these won’t make you feel mathematics in music, these won’t make you access new layers of understanding, these won’t make you reinvent the world… these will make you say three times instead of one “I will reinvent the world” but you won’t, too occupied saying that you will.

Anecodotal evidence is great; however: for other unfamilar with its definition; breifly:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ab8dmqb55x0ca7vm/[/url]

I'll take a quick excerpt and hope the authors don't get too angry at me ( [huh] ):

the present study aims to evaluate the nootropic potential of this novel agent in healthy young volunteers[/u].

Assuming you don't have an MD nor a PhD in psychopharmacology, I'll also assume that you aren't already aware that not a *single racetam* has ever been validated to be have nootropic effects in modern neuropsychological test batteries.

I will also point out what opales picked from the following peer review by J. M. Keppel Hesselink: From the Department of Pharmacology, University of Witten/Herdecke, Germany. Corresponding author: Jan M.Keppel Hesselink, MD, PhD, Professor of Pharmacology:

http://www.gjpsy.uni...icle-keppel.htm

drugs using modern, validated neuropsychological test batteries. The studies referred to on the Net by the smart drug advocates are mostly published in non peer-reviewed, obscure journals and in proceedings of congresses. The facts presented in those papers are over-interpreted by the advocates of smart drugs. Furthermore facts to support their use in man have been extrapolated from animal pharmacology without too much knowledge of the problems of many of the animal models used.

The only clincal trials that we have access to results this time (that might pass a peer review) were ALL performed on elderly and/or demented subjects using test batteries to measure cognitive decline as a result of Alzehimers like dementia. A "nootropic" effect would seem to be defined by increased memory and/or attention, not deficiency from "normal working memory" -- which is what is in fact measured by the ALL the somewhat quality research on Piracetam, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam, etc. Nootropics such as Pramiracetam have been tested using batteries such as:

1. Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Cognitive Subscale (ADAS-Cog).
2. Mini-Mental State Examination (MMSE).
3. The Global Deterioration Scale (GDS).
4. The Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Behavioral Subscale (ADAS-Behav).

Unfortunately, global ratings and comprehensive rating scales are outdated method and are considered inferior. Regardless, these tests are used to assess memory function of DEMENTED individuals, not HEALTHY individuals. The tests used to assess the effects of the racetams, etc. only measure how different patients afflicted with Alzheimers disease perform from a healthy person -- not how well a healthy person performs above average; as Provigil (modafinil) HAS.

Let me breifly update you on what are considered "modern, validated neuropsychological test batteries:"

1. CANTAB battery: learn more about these tests here: http://www.cantabele...tanceid=1306527

http://www.cantab.com/cantab/site/cantabte...tanceid=1306539[/url]']CANTAB tests
The nineteen CANTAB tests are grouped below in broad functional categories.

o CANTAB tests are sensitive to cognitive changes caused by a wide range of CNS disorders and medication effects, and can detect changes that most other tests will simply miss.
o Where error scores are a key outcome measure, CANTAB tests are graded in difficulty to avoid ceiling effects.
o Where accurate measurement of latency is important, responses are made via a press pad. Elsewhere, engaging touch-screen technology maximises compliance.
o The majority of CANTAB tests are independent of language and culture.

CANTAB tests
The nineteen CANTAB tests are grouped below in broad functional categories.

There are two tests of induction, four for visual memory, four for executive function, five for attention, two for semantic/verbal memory, and finally; two for emotional decision making.

All of these "modern, validated neuropsychological test batteries" are computerized and are independent of language and culture.

More info on particulars in the battery:

DMS (Delayed Matching to Sample)
Overview
This is a test of simultaneous and delayed matching to sample. This test is primarily sensitive to damage in the medial temporal lobe area, with some input from the frontal lobes.

Administration time
Around 10 minutes.

Task
The subject is shown a complex visual pattern (the sample) and then, after a brief delay, four similar patterns. The subject must touch the pattern which exactly matches the sample.

Test modes
Clinical mode (for testing once); five parallel modes (for repeated testing) and child mode (a simplified version for testing children)

Outcome measures
This test has nineteen outcome measures, assessing latency (the subject's speed of response), the numbers of correct patterns selected, and statistical analysis measuring the probabability of an error after a correct or incorrect response.

PAL (Paired Associates Learning)

Overview
This challenging test assesses visual memory and new learning, and is a useful tool for assessing patients with questionable dementia, Alzheimer’s Disease, and age-related memory loss.

Administration time
Around 10 minutes, depending on level of impairment

Task
Boxes are displayed on the screen and are opened in a randomised order. One or more of them will contain a pattern. The patterns are then displayed in the middle of the screen, one at a time, and the subject must touch the box where the pattern was originally located. If the subject makes an error, the patterns are re-presented to remind the subject of their locations. The difficulty level increases through the test. In the clinical mode, the number of patterns increases from one to eight, which challenges even very able subjects.

Test modes
Clinical mode (for testing once); five parallel modes (for repeated testing).

Outcome measures
This test has twenty-one outcome measures, covering the errors made by the subject, the number of trials required to locate the pattern(s) correctly, memory scores and stages completed.

PRM (Pattern Recognition Memory)

Overview
This is a test of visual pattern recognition memory in a 2-choice forced discrimination paradigm.

Administration time
Around 5 minutes, depending on level of impairment

Task
The subject is presented with a series of 12 visual patterns, one at a time, in the centre of the screen. These patterns are designed so that they cannot easily be given verbal labels. In the recognition phase, the subject is required to choose between a pattern they have already seen and a novel pattern. In this phase, the test patterns are presented in the reverse order to the original order of presentation.
This is then repeated, with 12 new patterns. The second recognition phase can be given either immediately or after a 20 minute delay.

Test modes
Clinical mode (for testing once); four parallel modes (for repeated testing). Each of these modes also has separate immediate and delayed versions available.

Outcome measures
This test has three outcome measures, including the number and percentage of correct trials and latency (speed of subject’s response).

SRM (Spatial Recognition Memory)
Overview
This is a test of spatial recognition memory in a 2-choice forced discrimination paradigm.

Administration time
Around 5 minutes, depending on level of impairment

Task
The subject is presented with a white square, which appears in sequence at five different locations on the screen. In the recognition phase, the subject sees a series of five pairs of squares, one of which is in a place previously seen in the presentation phase. The other square is in a location not seen in the presentation phase. As with the PRM test, locations are tested in the reverse of the presentation order. This sub-test is repeated three more times, each time with five new locations

Test modes
Clinical mode (for testing once); four parallel modes (for repeated testing).

Outcome measures
This test has three outcome measures, including the number and percentage of correct trials and latency (speed of subject’s response).

More info by following this link (you can see what these tests look like too):

http://www.cantab.co...tanceid=1306539


The (Cambridge Neuropsychological Test Automated Battery) CANTAB battery is only one of the set of tests used in the above article that subjects whom were given modafinil performed significantly better than placebo; the other tests used were:

1. Visual analogue scales
Bond A, Lader M (1974) The use of analogue scales in rating subjective feelings. Br J Med Psychol 47:211-218

2. Digit span: Weschler Adult Intelligence Scale

3. Decision making (gamble) task: Rahman S, Sahakian BJ, Cardinal RN, Rogers RD, Robbins TW (2001) Decision making and neuropsychiatry. Trends Cogn Sci 5:271-277

4. Stop-signal (stop) task:

a) This classic paradigm: Logan GD (1994) On the ability to inhibit thought and action. In: Dagenbach D, Carr TH (eds) Inhibitory processes in attention, memory and language. Academic Press, San Diego, pp 189-239

So...if we want to prove that Pramiracetam (or any other nootropic for that matter) is as effective as modafinil at generating nootropic effects -- we'll need to conduct a double blind, randomized clinical trial using the aforementioned modern, validated neuropsychological test batteries -- and measure the scores of groups of HEALTHY volunteers given a placebo, a control group, and Pramiracetam and then we'll know how Pramiracetam measures up to modafinil.

Until then, it's all just question marks. We should try to raise the money to hire clinicians to perform this research for us.

Edited by nootropikamil, 11 October 2006 - 12:18 AM.

[doug123]

Legend for CANTAB test names
IED Intra-dimensional/Extradimensional Shift
PRM Pattern Recognition Memory
SRM Spatial Recognition Memory
MTS Match to Sample
DTS Delayed Match to Sample
PAL Paired Associates
SWM Spatial Working
SOC Stockings of Cambridge
SSP Spatial Span
RVP Rapid Visual Information Processing

From the following paper: http://www.cantab.co...F...ure review"

Attached Files

•  Modafinil.JPG   119.47KB   0 downloads

[mrak1979]

is modafinil considered a nootropic? and has it's effective biological mechanism been established?

[doug123]

The biological mechanisms for the racetams has not been established.

The biological mechanisms for modafinil has not been fully established either.

Again:

Introduction
The novel wake-promoting agent modafinil has been licensed in the UK since 1997 for the treatment of narcolepsy (Provigil 1997). It has largely superseded the use of conventional stimulants, such as methylphenidate, for the treatment of this disorder (Moldofsky et al. 2000). Traditional stimulants have been shown to be effective in maintaining and enhancing performance on tests of attention and working memory (Solanto 1998), although often with significant side effects and the risk of dependence (Kollins et al. 2001). In contrast, modafinil has been shown to be safe and effective in the management of narcolepsy, with significantly fewer side effects being observed in patients on modafinil relative to placebo (Billiard et al. 1994) and with little evidence of dependence (Jasinski 2000). Animal research suggests that, unlike amphetamine and methylphenidate, the psychomotor effects of modafinil are not mediated via a catecholamine mechanism (Ferraro et al. 1996), despite having a similar clinical profile to these drugs (Ferraro et al. 1997). Given the proven clinical efficacy of modafinil in ameliorating symptoms of narcolepsy and excessive daytime sleepiness (Broughton et al. 1997), the present study aims to evaluate the nootropic potential of this novel agent in healthy young volunteers.

The nootropic effects of Provigil (modafinil) have been demonstrated more thoroughly than any other compound known to man. Any evidence to suggest otherwise would be welcomed.

I'd suggest evaluating the full paper from which the excerpt above is pasted.

You can find more information on how to get that by following this link:

http://www.springerl...8dmqb55x0ca7vm/

Take care.

[stayin_alive]

The list is a great idea - thanks. My purpose in this post is to ask you what your agenda is? Providing a list is a great. However, bumping a number of threads 2+ years dead to "promote" your site provides suspicion. Arguing an issue that was dead 2+ years ago just further fuels such suspicion.

I've ordered some bulk Pramiracetam and indeed hope it is 'worth the price'. I'll post a report of its effects or lack thereof as soon as it arrives - anticipated to be just under two weeks.

I currently take Piracetam 5 x 3g per day. It has made an amazing difference to my life. I saw, heard and thought its effects within 40 minutes of taking my first-ever dose. The effects are obvious and undeniable in my case - so too are the incremental improvements in numerous cognitive functions which keep showing themselves more than a year after first dosing. I would like to see even better effects from Pramiracetam.

adam_kamil: you seem to have an agenda and are pushing highly profitable, expensive and often prescription-only pharmaceutical drugs. Drugs with unpleasant and sometimes toxic side-effects. Furthermore, you never replied to the thread's starter regarding effects YOU have had with Pramiracetam, or differences YOU have seen for yourself between Pramiracetam and Piracetam. You did indicate that the effects of racetams for you were incomparable to Provigil. Yet that was not the OP's question. He asked if Pramiracetam's higher cost could be justified by its better effects when compared to Piracetam.

Instead, you took off on an altogether different direction: a series of long dissertations on how none of the racetams have been 'proven effective', even going so far as to make the egregious statement that none of the racetams are 'nootropics' - though the term itself was coined by the inventor of Piracetam to describe his invention.

Not only is this unhelpful in the OP's case because it doesn't answer his question, but confuses the thread with a vast swell of unasked-for information. The OP doesn't want to be told that some scientists conducted some experiments on a chosen subset of the population and decided based on their own ideas of what constitutes effectivity that racetams are ineffective.

He wants live flesh-and-blood people - who have used Pramiracetam - to tell him whether it was worth paying Pramiracetam's higher price, or should he just stick with Piracetam? None of the studies you quoted even asks the question.

The answer to this question depends on the individual effect per unit price, and the price depends on which supplier you purchase from, economy of scale [bulk discounts and flat-rate shipping] and shipping destination.

While I can't alter the OP's biochemical constitution to ensure Pramiracetam's effectiveness, I can change the equation's denominator: price. It turns out some new suppliers for cheap bulk powdered Pramiracetam have been showing up recently They've been added to the list less than a week ago.

I maintain a list of Racetam Suppliers {mirror}. It includes the cheapest verified sellers of the Big Six racetams: Piracetam, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam, Nefiracetam and Phenylpiracetam. The list is updated regularly, suppliers are checked, and the page itself contains no ads, images, scripts, or cookies and is put online for community use not commercial gain or compensation.

The list is an online copy for the use of others; I originally made it so that I'd have a 'global grasp' on the cheapest, most reliable suppliers for this fascinating and very useful family of compounds.

[stayin_alive]

Nice reply and no question there is much we agree on. Do you in anyway benefit financially from the sales, advertisement or promotion of anything related to this thread? Do you in anyway benefit financially from the sales, advertisement or promotion of anything related to the other threads which you post in? You are quite active in the racetam threads.

You're right. I do have an agenda, and it happens to be one that is on-topic for this thread, which is Pramiracetam in particular and racetams in general.

I believe that these nice molecules are quite revolutionary and my goal is to make it easier and cheaper for people to use them, myself included. Because it was hard for me to find decent cheap suppliers I made the list.

After making it I decided to popularize it by linking it into every thread on every site for which the topic matched.

It is my goal to promote these compounds until the ugly caffeine culture and cultures of numerous other depleting, toxic, expensive, and often prescription-only drugs is defeated or rolled back.

It is my goal to promote compounds that REgenerate the brain, at the expense of compounds that DEgenerate the brain. Being surrounded by foolish caffeine addicts and alcohol addicts - and their corporate dealers infesting every street corner selling their toxic wares, I have for my life wondered if there was a better way than following their behaviour. Indeed there was, and I found the path which breaks free from those anti-life traps. This path leads away from the circus and toward a greener place of true REfunctionalization, and beyond that superfunctionalization of the brain.

Consider how many billions of dollars is spent every year promoting toxic caffeine; degenerative alcohol. My advocacy is unpaid but full of pleasure beyond measure. It is joyful to promote the healing agents of positive change.

As to the thread's topic, I believe that while Pramiracetam may or may not be worth the monetary price, it is definitely worth the physiological price - in absolute terms or compared to the physiological price paid by the users of its functional equivalents, such as caffeine.

Because the physiological price of racetams is usually negative (ie. their physiological 'price' is a benefit), it is easy to construct arguments in their favor, especially when compared to the easily measurable deleterious effects of their commonly-used functional equivalents in today's society.

Those who don't mind fatty liver degeneration, liver cancer, brain damage {alcohol}, heart arrhythmia, bone loss, crashes, withdrawals (headache especially), insomnia, addiction {caffeine} - need not read further.

Make no mistake, trillions of dollars are invested in legal business selling status-quo drugs {mostly caffeine and alcohol} to hordes [read: large portions] of the population. These status-quo drugs can easily be displaced or replaced by one or more racetam, Pramiracetam included. Such businesses are highly profitable because the drain-drugs they sell are depleting and have a vicious addiction cycle.

Edited by stayin_alive, 09 August 2009 - 02:57 PM.

[Morris Luo]

In all nootropics on the world, Huperzine-a is best, then Pramiracetam.Huperzine-a natual, because it is too expensive, few people know it. Pramiracetam is synthetic from Italy. Pramiracetam is claimed to be 8-30 times stronger than Piracetambut that company do not have API from 2009, do not produce any more. Only one supplier in China produce.

There are some other common nootropics, very cheap but do not have good treatment effect. Such as piracetam, oxiracetam, aniracetam, Aniracetam,galantamine Ginkgo injection and so on.

[shady8x]

In all nootropics on the world, Huperzine-a is best, then Pramiracetam.Huperzine-a natual, because it is too expensive, few people know it. Pramiracetam is synthetic from Italy. Pramiracetam is claimed to be 8-30 times stronger than Piracetambut that company do not have API from 2009, do not produce any more. Only one supplier in China produce.

There are some other common nootropics, very cheap but do not have good treatment effect. Such as piracetam, oxiracetam, aniracetam, Aniracetam,galantamine Ginkgo injection and so on.

Huperzine-a, expensive?

Are you talking about the following or something else?
http://shop.ebay.com...-All-Categories

If that isn't it than could you give me a link to what you are talking about?

[nazcalito]

I ordered 100g of bulk pramiracetam a few weeks ago. It is definitely the most effective of the racetams that I have tried. It is also the most unpleasant tasting of all the racetams, much worse than piracetam, a truly vile bitterness that is worse even than centrophenoxine. You would have trouble offering pram as a booster for a Jamba Juice or coffee. I'm beginning to think of capsulizing the stuff for the first time -- I never bothered to do so before with bulk powders.

If you mix pramiracetam with acetyl-l-carnitine, the mixture will turn into a gluey sludge, suggesting that there is a not necessarily desirable chemical reaction between the two substances. I ate the sludge without ill effects and with the same mental boosting effects. I suspect the mixture is hygroscopic.

Pram has an interesting calming or emotion-evening-out effect, making it easier to concentrate without being distracted by anxiety or stress.

I notice a tired-at-the-end-of-the-day quality to pram that suggests that it is burning up choline. I am taking it with centrophenoxine in about a 1 to 2 ratio and probably need to add another choline source to the mix.

Edited by nazcalito, 02 September 2009 - 08:09 PM.

[425runner]

I ordered 100g of bulk pramiracetam a few weeks ago. It is definitely the most effective of the racetams that I have tried. It is also the most unpleasant tasting of all the racetams, much worse than piracetam, a truly vile bitterness that is worse even than centrophenoxine. You would have trouble offering pram as a booster for a Jamba Juice or coffee. I'm beginning to think of capsulizing the stuff for the first time -- I never bothered to do so before with bulk powders.

If you mix pramiracetam with acetyl-l-carnitine, the mixture will turn into a gluey sludge, suggesting that there is a not necessarily desirable chemical reaction between the two substances. I ate the sludge without ill effects and with the same mental boosting effects. I suspect the mixture is hygroscopic.

Pram has an interesting calming or emotion-evening-out effect, making it easier to concentrate without being distracted by anxiety or stress.

I notice a tired-at-the-end-of-the-day quality to pram that suggests that it is burning up choline. I am taking it with centrophenoxine in about a 1 to 2 ratio and probably need to add another choline source to the mix.

I second that. I too ordered 100 gr of pure pramiracetam and it tasted horrible....yuck...but I took it with alpha gpc which is kindda sweet and raspberry diet rite so it wasn't too bad. It works great!! and worth every penny.

[digitalhammer]

I ordered 100g of bulk pramiracetam a few weeks ago. It is definitely the most effective of the racetams that I have tried. It is also the most unpleasant tasting of all the racetams, much worse than piracetam, a truly vile bitterness that is worse even than centrophenoxine. You would have trouble offering pram as a booster for a Jamba Juice or coffee. I'm beginning to think of capsulizing the stuff for the first time -- I never bothered to do so before with bulk powders.

If you mix pramiracetam with acetyl-l-carnitine, the mixture will turn into a gluey sludge, suggesting that there is a not necessarily desirable chemical reaction between the two substances. I ate the sludge without ill effects and with the same mental boosting effects. I suspect the mixture is hygroscopic.

Pram has an interesting calming or emotion-evening-out effect, making it easier to concentrate without being distracted by anxiety or stress.

I notice a tired-at-the-end-of-the-day quality to pram that suggests that it is burning up choline. I am taking it with centrophenoxine in about a 1 to 2 ratio and probably need to add another choline source to the mix.

Having tried pram for the first time today (with 600mg choline bitatrate and 2200mg lecithin capsules), I can confirm the vile taste and an emotionally flattening effect that is reminiscent of methylphenidate. However, while the effect does make it make it easier to concentrate by blunting emotional impulses, it does not actually boost concentration to unbreakable levels typically achieved with ADHD drugs. A balloon popping next to you in a library may not phase you in the midst of a Ritalin buzz, but a bird chirping outside your window while trying to finish a math assignment certainly can with Pram. Using caffeine can be useful for countering the drowsiness experienced by some racetam users, pram included.

As this is an anecdotal report, YMMV.