48 replies to this topic

[halcyondays]

Not sure if this is the right place for this post, but it seems like it fits here. I was wondering if anyone else had watched this presentation by Aubrey at TED 2006. He uses the F word, and I can sort of understand why he is using it to bring out the seriousness of the problem, but it does seem a little unprofessional and I think it might hurt him and his message to some degree in the long run. How are we supposed to get support of that key demographic, the soccer moms, with the F word?

[ameldedic2]

Yes. I seen that. Not a big deal. It happens.

[mitkat]

Hmmm...Although I see how he might be using it to show the facts about deaths around the world, it might be a bit much.

OTOH, what sort of a crowd is this? It's a scientific get-together of some sort and they might be cool with that chatta.

He also says bullshit! [:o] [thumb]

[Anne]

I don't think the so-called "F bomb" is a big deal -- most people have heard it by the time they're in second grade. "Bad words" only have power if people assign it to them. Quibbling over profanity reminds me of how people will pitch a fit if they see (gasp!) a nipple on prime-time TV, whilst getting ready to go home and downoad their daily dose of "Blondes in Heat".

[halcyondays]

I don't think the so-called "F bomb" is a big deal -- most people have heard it by the time they're in second grade.  "Bad words" only have power if people assign it to them.  Quibbling over profanity reminds me of how people will pitch a fit if they see (gasp!) a nipple on prime-time TV, whilst getting ready to go home and downoad their daily dose of "Blondes in Heat".

I agree with you, but most of society doesn't. People are usually taken more seriously when they aren't throwing epitaphs left and right. I'm playing devils advocate here of course. Also he hasn't done this in front of a national audience, network tv wouldn't allow it first off, and obviously he is careful what he says in front of the camera when on tv vs a smaller presentation to a group of people.

Edited by halcyondays, 04 December 2006 - 06:41 AM.

[Anne]

Hehe, I think you mean "epithets".

[kent23]

F**K AGING! MURDER CANCER!
I think that would make a good T-shirt. "F**K AGING" on the front, big black letters in a white box, "MURDER CANCER" on the back, big white letters in a black box.
Just the daydream this thread evoked for me... Don't worry, I don't have the time, money, energy, etc.., to make such a t-shirt, let alone decide whether it would be a net good (and not just my inner John Brown screaming at an insane world.)
As for my two cents on the thread... I'm not worried about it.
Throwing epitaphs left and right? Now, THAT would be worrisome...

[eternaltraveler]

Throwing epitaphs left and right? Now, THAT would be worrisome...

yah, because epitaphs are precisely what we're working to prevent )

[mitkat]

F**K AGING! MURDER CANCER!
I think that would make a good T-shirt. "F**K AGING" on the front, big black letters in a white box, "MURDER CANCER" on the back, big white letters in a black box.
Just the daydream this thread evoked for me... Don't worry, I don't have the time, money, energy, etc.., to make such a t-shirt, let alone decide whether it would be a net good (and not just my inner John Brown screaming at an insane world.)
As for my two cents on the thread... I'm not worried about it.
Throwing epitaphs left and right? Now, THAT would be worrisome...

Shirts like that would not be very well accepted. Believe me, I'm no prude - but ****, murder, these words have negative connotations that are undeniable.

I don't think the so-called "F bomb" is a big deal -- most people have heard it by the time they're in second grade. "Bad words" only have power if people assign it to them. Quibbling over profanity reminds me of how people will pitch a fit if they see (gasp!) a nipple on prime-time TV, whilst getting ready to go home and downoad their daily dose of "Blondes in Heat".

I think it's clear that no one here is actually offended by it (come on! ), but it's not us that has to be "convinced". If it is indeed those soccer moms, they might not feel as open to the idea if they've lived at all sheltered lives or are especially biased by strong language that could be percieved in a less than optimal light. They have assigned that power to those words. That quibbling could be under scrutiny when the actual nuts and bolts of radical anti-aging therapies come in motion.

[kent23]

yah, because epitaphs are precisely what we're working to prevent )

word

[kent23]

Shirts like that would not be very well accepted. Believe me, I'm no prude - but ****, murder, these words have negative connotations that are undeniable.

Would depend crucially on the quality of the wearer. Should immortalism seek street cred? How does one define street cred? Does immortalism have this mysterious "street cred"?

Probably we don't, because the street, depending on its neighborhood, at any random position, is not brimming with influence and access and cash. But is that wrong? What forms of buzz have our PR leaders tried? Besides all the ones that, um. What are forms of buzz?

Does the movement even need to grow at all? What if we're it? What is it? Don't ask me, I'm just mortally charged with knowing.

(I mean, what if we're the group that has to fend off a zombi attack, know what I mean? I don't.)

That shirt, were it anything other than a half-cocked sparkf**k of the mind conceived while idly reading my daily imminst while waiting for a reaction to finish, because I'm a productive person and all, don't anyone dare question it, because I am presently wearing an eyepatch and pretending to be a pirate even though it's just a random Monday morning in early December, while listening to Current 93's Dogs Blood Rising, because if you question people who do that, you might even turn on your headlights someday at a private aquarium convention, would probably NOT, um, what was the subject, oh, the shirt. Yeah, mitkat, the shirt would really screw with people. Premature, but richly. Maybe I'll make it for Burning Man next year. And rock it with a muthf*ckin' eyepatch, a soulpatch, and a sword across my back with an RNA-like symbol on the hilt.

The words will light up and dance with LED's. Why the f**ck not?! F**K AGING, MURDER CANCER! Punk rage for the cause! At least in a nice pseudo-TAZ of subgenius types, and other peeling lepers, slouching toward chrysalis and consequence.

Merry Random Early Day in December Everyone, ho ho ho.

(P.S. Save the cheerleader, cure aging.)

(P.P.S. I will always be proud to have known folks who lose sleep over universal heat death...)

[RighteousReason]

MURDER CANCER

I would definitely wear this. [lol]

[halcyondays]

Hehe, I think you mean "epithets".

Oops, yes I do.

[lightowl]

LOL, Americans and their profanity bullshit. Get the F.U.C.K over it, PLEASE.

BTW, could someone turn off the profanity filter on this board already. WTF

[mitkat]

Would depend crucially on the quality of the wearer. Should immortalism seek street cred? How does one define street cred? Does immortalism have this mysterious "street cred"?

Lol, what human qualities would they need that others do not presently have? I would define street cred as positive populist subjectivity, fyi. Immortalism absolutely does not have "street cred" as you put it, simply because it's not a major facet of either pop or art culture. There aren't a lot of scientific movements that hold street cred, if you wish to analyse the urban socio-geographic magoogajoo at the heart of the matter - street cred is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. There's the theories, some tangibility in certain circles, and a whole lot of head-scratching or most likely non-existance in regards to immortalism in the general population. Let's not forget the enormously reliable "whacko" archetype - that's an easy rider.

(I mean, what if we're the group that has to fend off a zombi attack, know what I mean? I don't.)

This actually is an important question. In the event of a zombie survival scenerio, I've watched enough z-grade ital-zombie movies that I feel naively optimistic about my chances of survival <3

That shirt, were it anything other than a half-cocked sparkf**k of the mind conceived while idly reading my daily imminst while waiting for a reaction to finish, because I'm a productive person and all, don't anyone dare question it, because I am presently wearing an eyepatch and pretending to be a pirate even though it's just a random Monday morning in early December, while listening to Current 93's Dogs Blood Rising, because if you question people who do that, you might even turn on your headlights someday at a private aquarium convention, would probably NOT, um, what was the subject, oh, the shirt. Yeah, mitkat, the shirt would really screw with people. Premature, but richly. Maybe I'll make it for Burning Man next year. And rock it with a muthf*ckin' eyepatch, a soulpatch, and a sword across my back with an RNA-like symbol on the hilt.

The words will light up and dance with LED's. Why the f**ck not?! F**K AGING, MURDER CANCER! Punk rage for the cause! At least in a nice pseudo-TAZ of subgenius types, and other peeling lepers, slouching toward chrysalis and consequence.

Okay, neat-o. I'm happy you're happy. Soulpatches are indeed spectacular, that's pretty much a given. If you like the shirt, that's swell too - at burningman you can explain WTF is up with your shirt to someone who will totally dismiss what you're saying (not unlike the raver's "nod 'n' smile") and/or not remember a word of it the next day. Or you could explain how many millions of $$$ it will take to even get a jump-start on the whole thing while avoiding getting smacked with a glowstick by a dirty 50, shirtless man who is overweight and woke up in the desert. Glowsticks SMART. I'm not being overly sarcastic here, so don't interpret it as such.

It's nice to see you're so passionate, and I hope you can make it work! [thumb]

(P.S. Save the cheerleader, cure aging.)

(P.P.S. I will always be proud to have known folks who lose sleep over universal heat death...)

Argh, was that a Heros reference?

[halcyondays]

LOL, Americans and their profanity bullshit. Get the F.U.C.K over it, PLEASE.

BTW, could someone turn off the profanity filter on this board already. WTF

I'm Canadian, and I'm not offended by the profanity. I was just making a point, which I think is at least valid enough to take a look at.

[lightowl]

Hehe. Nothing personal of course. Just me expressing my most honest of opinions.

I think emotionally loaded words and expressions are very appropriate when speaking against aging. The fact that some people get offended speaks more about the offended than about the people expressing anger. Some of those offended might even go so far as to want to ban negative speech and angry emotions all together. Uuuuuuhh, LOVE LOVE LOVE... every thing is soooooo wonderful and beautiful and joyfull... and then we all just lay down and die.... hurraaaaaaay. [sick]

[JMorgan]

If someone curses all the time, it has no meaning and just shows bad character. But, if used sparingly (almost like punctuation) then it can be quite effective. I think Aubrey made a great choice of words.

Slight tangent: In "The Vernon Johns Story," James Earl Jones plays the minister who preached at the church before Martin Luther King, Jr. came along. In one of his sermons, he describes how he went into a white establishment to order a drink and after he was done, they broke the glass rather than washing it. Out of spite, he ordered another and the same thing happened again. In his sermon he said that when leaving, he prayed the shortest prayer of his life, "Goddamnit!!"

The parishioners were completely shocked, but it made a very important point.

[kent23]

so sayeth mitkat:

Immortalism absolutely does not have "street cred" as you put it, simply because it's not a major facet of either pop or art culture.

I think street cred is rather the opposite. True hipsterism is always underground, and pre-aboveground. Optimistically, I'd say we're the quintessential hipsters of the new milennium. Immortalism is ahead of its time in 2006 like weed, goatees, and bongos were in 1952.

also quoting mitkat:

...getting smacked with a glowstick by a dirty 50, shirtless man who is overweight and woke up in the desert.

Not my Burning Man experience. I met corporate lawyers, UCSF neuroscientists (who come every year and have their own camp, in fact- and bear in mind UCSF regularly ranks at or near the top for neuroscience), internet and software-development millionaires, SETI researchers, aspiring cyborgs, and Ph.D. mathematicians in my time on the playa. No glowstick-violence was visited upon my person, and most of these high-class intellectual hipsters had rather nice bodies. Furthermore, I failed to encounter deathist memes when discussing immortalism. Black Rock City is the hippest place on earth for a week every year. An "Immortalist Camp" would go over very well.

F-BOMB AGING! There, use "F-bomb" as a transitive verb and it becomes Miss Manners friendly. "F-BOMB AGING! MURDER CANCER!" Of course, sloganeering is just sloganeering, but with a t-shirt saying that in swirling neon LED's I would feel less guilty attending Burning Man next year... anyone want to join me at "Immortalist Camp"?

[Shepard]

Not my Burning Man experience. I met corporate lawyers, UCSF neuroscientists (who come every year and have their own camp, in fact- and bear in mind UCSF regularly ranks at or near the top for neuroscience), internet and software-development millionaires, SETI researchers, aspiring cyborgs, and Ph.D. mathematicians in my time on the playa.

I keep hearing this about Burning Man. I've wanted to go for a while. I've been trying to get a group of friends to go, but they hear "desert" and stop listening.

[kent23]

http://www.burningman.com/

well-timed in 2007 so one has time to catch a flight to the third SENS conference afterwards...

The desert in which Burning Man takes place is incredibly beautiful, by the way. Yes, it's hot and dusty and dry, but that's part of the allure.

Let me know if you want to join the "Immortalist Camp" in 2007... not a good name, but we have time to improve on it before camp registration takes place...

http://www.burningman.com/themecamps/

I like "The Anti-Deathist Evergreen Encampment" (TADEE). This year's overall theme for the event is "The Green Man" so it would be nice to get green in there somehow. Just calling it "The Immortalist Camp" isn't funky enough to be appropriate, but with the TADEE name, we would have many interesting and in-the-know visitors. We could probably come up with something better, too... And then there are the costumes, and camp decoration...

[treonsverdery]

I think a meme where whenever imminsters discuss popular culture imminst social norms require that they also mention an area of meaningful research would be super nifty. My useless thoughts on cussing researchers are here supplemented with the description of a valuable research area

research area:
The study of antlers as a regenerative organ system among mammals. Antlers grow each year, they are made of bone and cartlige, have morphological predicatability, and have a circulatory system. Their creation n shedding could be related to what SENS persons dispute as noncyte annual programmed death n rebirth of an organ. The study of the chemical cytokines that cause antler growth on custom grown lab tissue is just beginning. I believe antler growth studies deserve discussion at imminst.

and now my thoughts on the word ****
whenever I think about the word **** I think maybe it has to do with sex, I kind of like making love so it seems like Aubey's use of the word ought to be replaced with yuck or shun. Conjuction junction what's your yuckshun

Edited by treonsverdery, 06 December 2006 - 05:32 AM.

[mitkat]

Immortalism absolutely does not have "street cred" as you put it, simply because it's not a major facet of either pop or art culture.

I think street cred is rather the opposite. True hipsterism is always underground, and pre-aboveground. Optimistically, I'd say we're the quintessential hipsters of the new milennium. Immortalism is ahead of its time in 2006 like weed, goatees, and bongos were in 1952

No doubt. I agree with that, and I don't believe what I'm saying is any different from that essentially. You're confusing street cred with underground movements, and neither applies to the immortalist community (unless you want to consider it a underground scientific movement, in which it's not really part of so-called hip culture, because it is theoretical science). It's outside the range of most things that fall into the pop culture paradigm. And when I said art culture, I was getting at people-in-the-know, original scenesters and urban iconoclasts that fuel underground movements.

You cannot compare immortalism with a counterculture movement based around drugs, music, art, clothing, anti-establishment, etc - one that you have idenitifed to be hip and thus having street cred? When everyone is part of this "underground" movement, it means nothing, loses all of this here street cred, just as another subculture is brewing in the background that 99.9% of people have no clue about. This pre-aboveground talk is basically the beginning steps of dissolving a counterculture as everyone and their mom hops on board. Immortalism does equal not hipsterism. That concept is fleeting and mutating endlessly!


Anyways, f the f-bomb

[treonsverdery]

More thoughts on the word FUC*
during FUC*ing tissues often become engorged with blood causing stiffness or turgor. Recent research that lists my former girlfriend as an author suggests that at the tissue organizational level the plump rigidity of tissues directly affects the progress of microvascularization as well as the migration of cytes. Thus as we ponder the ability of aging tissues to regenerate a new thing a 3d body map of micropressure might well be advantageous to regeneration or even slowing aging. Literally the plump cheeks of a 20 year old have a reinforced mechanical turgor that affects their vascularization n physiochemical function. It is possible that regulation of cytological network presures with drugs could slow aging or promote regeneration.


from the abstract:
Exp Cell Res. 2004 Jul 15;297(2):574-84. Links
The relative magnitudes of endothelial force generation and matrix stiffness modulate capillary morphogenesis in vitro.
When suspended in collagen gels, endothelial cells elongate and form capillary-like networks containing lumens. Human blood outgrowth endothelial cells (HBOEC) suspended in relatively rigid 3 mg/ml floating collagen gels, formed in vivo-like, thin, branched multi-cellular structures with small, thick-walled lumens, while human umbilical vein endothelial cells (HUVEC) formed fewer multi-cellular structures, had a spread appearance, and had larger lumens. HBOEC exert more traction on collagen gels than HUVEC as evidenced by greater contraction of floating gels. When the stiffness of floating gels was decreased by decreasing the collagen concentration from 3 to 1.5 mg/ml, HUVEC contracted gels more and formed thin, multi-cellular structures with small lumens, similar in appearance to HBOEC in floating 3 mg/ml gels. In contrast to floating gels, traction forces exerted by cells in mechanically constrained gels encounter considerable resistance. In constrained collagen gels (3 mg/ml), both cell types appeared spread, formed structures with fewer cells, had larger, thinner-walled lumens than in floating gels, and showed prominent actin stress fibers, not seen in floating gels. These results suggest that the relative magnitudes of cellular force generation and apparent matrix stiffness modulate capillary morphogenesis in vitro and that this balance may play a role in regulating angiogenesis in vivo.


Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 Sep 12;103(37):13897.
Migration of tumor cells in 3D matrices is governed by matrix stiffness along with cell-matrix adhesion and proteolysis.
We demonstrate that, in addition to adhesion and tractile forces, matrix stiffness is a key factor that influences cell movement in 3D. Cell migration assays in which Matrigel density, fibronectin concentration, and beta1 integrin binding are systematically varied show that at a specific Matrigel density the migration speed of DU-145 human prostate carcinoma cells is a balance between tractile and adhesion forces. However, when biochemical parameters such as matrix ligand and cell integrin receptor levels are held constant, maximal cell movement shifts to matrices exhibiting lesser stiffness.

as well as
Biorheology. 2006;43(1):45-55. Links
Micropatterned polymer surfaces improve retention of endothelial cells exposed to flow-induced shear stress.
Based on computational fluid dynamics, under identical bulk flow conditions, the average local shear stress in the channels (46 dyn/cm2) was 28% lower than unpatterned surfaces (60 dyn/cm2). When PU surfaces pre-seeded with endothelial cells (EC) were exposed to the same bulk flow rate, EC retention was significantly improved on the micropatterned surfaces relative to un-patterned surfaces (92% vs. 58% retention).

Maybe I should write to her

[DJS]

The Big Lebowski Fu**ing Short Version

[kent23]

mitkat, whoa, yeah, absolutely! It is what it is and we are. never be hip, just right. everyone in the punk movement argued about who and what was true to its spirit. immortalism is hip, punk, correct, revolutionary, eternal, fleeting, mutating, all that and most of its opposite! the moment something is hip, it's no longer hip, you can never step in the same hipness twice. it feels to me like early fifties san francisco must have, that's all, like i imagine from my Kerouac worship days etc. no labels are sticky enough. it has happened before, but there's nothing to compare it to now. you are so right, thinking freshly. i want to deconstruct things a little, and come at them sideways, eh? all sorts of evolutions, the way not always through discursive thought, the day and the race not always to the mere clear reasoning, not when it comes to... incomprehensible masses of people, the peopleome of Gaia. Some will come aboard through joy and drunkenness, maybe? So, these are the days before soccer mom immortalism, and if it's not set on the right course now it never will be... but if the demographic median immortalist of 2020 is someone i wouldn't hitchhike across Europe with, i won't rebuke the cause...

Mr. Spanton, thank you, I adore your very soul.

[treonsverdery]

Woody allen may have said "I don't want to be immortal from my works I want to be immortal from not dying" but a parallel universe version of Woody Allen may have said "I don't want to be a movement, I'm too anal-retentive to be a movement: movements get flushed"

Anyway I've got this new social norm where every Item has a utility treat. The utility treat here is: who among us believes that if we paid the majority of medical fees to doctors to stay well n live long we would have longer lifespans. My perception is that during the 20th century more than a third of all medical costs happened during the last few months of life.

[kent23]

Anyway I've got this new social norm where every Item has a utility treat.  The utility treat here is: who among us believes that if we paid the majority of medical fees to doctors to stay well n live long we would have longer lifespans. 

Not sure what you mean. Could you clarify a little? What is a "utility treat"?

[treonsverdery]

Utility treats http://www.imminst.o...=0

But now I must provide a utility treat to go with my Item

Utility Treat:
If you are thinking about Things like the GRE SAT or GMAT think about a prep course. At epinions.com this GMAT person gained 100 points, then retested n was up 200 points from her prep class. If our nootropic regimens n ideas did that we'd be walking on clouds.

numerous reviews of test prep are at http://www.epinions....st_Prep_Courses

Future Utility Treat Research shows that Co-administration of dextromethorphan during pregnancy and throughout lactation significantly decreases the adverse effects associated with chronic morphine administration in rat offspring Visiting http://www.hedweb.com I'm thinking that body produced opioids are associated with social as well as emotional competence. If prenatal administration of dextromethorphan creates lifetime improvement at lab mammal challenge competence as well as emotional well being then human use of prenatal dextromethorphan will join choline plus folic acid as valued prenatal treatments to give humans happier cleverer being.

Longevity Research Utility Treat Opiates have been shown to make animals live longer That suggests dextromethorphan supplementation during pregnancy may cause the baby to have longer lifespan. That's an idea that merits research.

Note I'm not a doctor. If you are pregnant talk with a physician.

Edited by treonsverdery, 08 December 2006 - 05:31 AM.