1708 replies to this topic

[tintinet]

What kinda mistake? Taking excessive doses?

[health_nutty]

I have to admit until recently I was quite a caffeine junkie and would *need* my coffee or green tea in the morning. Now, I can take it or leave it. I can't stress enough how unusual this is for me.

[curious_sle]

Well, me for one i'm not shure. I suppose i feel some feeble uplifting energizing effect. Not shure though and i'd have to wait for like 3 months for any placebo effect to wear off. (Sidestab to some of the more, um, UPPERCASE messages here attributig everything and the moon to resveratrol :-) ).

[tintinet]

At times, I do think I perceive an acute lift from resveratrol intake, but, more
often not. In general I feel robust, energetic, resilient, with upbeat, optimistic mood and outlook despite long work hours, too little sleep, and stressful situations continuously, at work, home, etc.

And yet, all that might be placebo.

[opus12ga]

Does anyone have a good analysis of the optimal dosing? Put differently, why 500mg per day vs. 24mg/kg per day? Is there proof as to the different metabolic rates between the mice and humans that lets a reasonable accurate conversion factor to be determined? Likewise is the 500 mg/kg number based on Sincalair's reaseach? What about the relatively greater benefits based on the Auwerx study at 400/mg/kg/day?

Thanks in advance.

Opus

[ryan1113]

Does anyone have a good analysis of the optimal dosing?  Put differently, why 500mg per day vs. 24mg/kg per day?  Is there proof as to the different metabolic rates between the mice and humans that lets a reasonable accurate conversion factor to be determined?  Likewise is the 500 mg/kg number based on Sincalair's reaseach?  What about the relatively greater benefits based on the Auwerx study at 400/mg/kg/day?

Thanks in advance.

Opus

An interspecies dosage scaling factor is applied when applying rodent studies to humans.

One convention in scaling between mice and humans is to use a factor of 7.4. For rats, depending on the species, it tends to be around 3.5. This number comes from a mathematical formula, but I'll skip the full explanation.

So, for example, if mice are administered something at 100mg/kg, to switch to a rough human equivalent you'd first divide 100 by 7.4 and then multiply by your weight in kg.

However, where human experience and trials with a new drug are lacking, it's considered wise to slash the number derived for humans by a significant percentage. Large, sophisticated trials on pharmaceuticals that start in rodents and proceed to human trials often reveal that either a lesser dosage or a greater dosage is required for humans, and human trials with drugs often reveal side effects that were not noticed in the rodents. It's all too common for pharmaceuticals to work in rodents but to fail miserably when they are first tried in humans.

The interspecies dosage scaling factor is just a general approximation, sometimes it comes out pretty accurate and sometimes it's off.

You also have to remember that optimal dosages in rodents are often not revealed. Just because substance X is effective at 500mg/kg in a rodent trial but not at 75 mg/kg doesn't mean that 500mg/kg is necessary. It's possible that 150 mg/kg will do the same with less toxicity. There has to be enough information to start with in rodent studies, then, revealing what the ideal dosage is in rodents is before the interspecies dosage factor should even be used. If this hasn't been done, then wisdom suggests slashing the resulting human equivalent by a big margin until there is more experience with human usage, and more rodent studies reveal more precise dosages.

Of course, most of this is not a huge concern with most natural supplements being used in humans, because they've been in use most of the time for decades or longer in humans already, and for most well-known substances there will be published human studies.

As far as resveratrol itself is concerned, there seems to be a wide safety margin between an effective dosage and the current minimum dosage indicating the first signs of toxicity, so this would help to lessen concerns about scaling to a human equivalent.

Edited by ryan1113, 12 February 2007 - 09:14 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

revgenetics, maybe you should consider that niner wrote 3000 mg/kg.... not just 3000 mg.  Recheck your math and you will see that niner is correct.  (To give you a hint: average male weights ~70-90 kg)

side note: be very cautious of RevGenetics and its product (R500).  Not that i have to tell most people here that, but I dont want anyone who stumbles upon this site to make a mistake.

I went back, and you are right fearfrost... niner is right to be worried about 3000mg for each Kg. I find THAT amount quite large... As far as being cautious about RevGenetics, I simply hope folks are always cautious about what they take internally.

My question though is the following, do all people here feel the same way about RevGenetics as fearfrost? If so, why? I am trying to understand the issue.

thanks,
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics

[opus12ga]

Many thanks. The 7.4 is useful as an approximation, even if no one can tell dead-on the actual conversion rate. The Wikipedia article looked to use a conversion factor about 10, but the implied conversion rate based on Sinclair's own use would be about 5.

Now, I just need to determine the final dosing (24/mg equivalent or higher). I know Aurwex went to 400/mg/kg/day, but that seems a bit excessive to me at this point.

I got tired of ordering supplements from the sites (mostly VitaCost) and just got a shipment directly in from China. Now that dosing is really under my control, I need to make some longer-term decisions as to what is the most appropriate amount. Any additional feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks again,

Opus

[VP.]

Likewise is the 500 mg (edit) number based on Sincalair's research?  What about the relatively greater benefits based on the Auwerx study at 400/mg/kg/day?

Sinclair and family are taking RSV at 5 mg/kg. I consider him the world's foremost authority on RSV, therefore I believe that 5 mg/kg is a "safe" dose at this time. The Sinclair study is being done for the entire lifespan of the mice while the Auwerx study was only run for 15 weeks. There is no data on mice let alone humans for lifetime dosing at 400mg/kg. Unless you are an athlete who is willing to take a leap into the unknown, I would avoid anything greater than 10mg/kg. (I would make an exception if I had cancer).

[opus12ga]

Anthony:

For myself (as an occassional lurker on the Board), no I do not. I have dealt with other 1 trick pony websites (namely AC-11) and generally think their products can be as good (or better) than those of others. Of course, some people will fear that your financial interest in pushing your product will bias anything you say. Then again, everyone here has a bias probably in favor of supplements.

Regards,

Opus

[opus12ga]

Velopismo:

Thanks for the thoughts.

Opus

[health_nutty]

I don't have a bias either way.

[
My question though is the following, do all people here feel the same way about RevGenetics as fearfrost? If so, why? I am trying to understand the issue.
thanks,
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics

[eternalone]

Recently, I switched to using the Country Life resveratrol. Now my daily intake is 400mg (weekends off) and I've experimented with using a combination of Country Life/ Nature's Way = 550mg a couple of times.
I'm still getting that uplifting feeling with no emodin effects. The thing that stands out the most is that my craving for alcohol is gone and that I no longer require any coffee to keep me going while working the 3rd shift. My visual acuity has improved since taking it. It might be from taking other supplements, but coincidentally it improved when I started taking resveratrol in higher amounts.
It has really suppressed my hunger, and I have to be careful not to skip any meals.
I've been reading so much about the bioavailibility/solubility issues that I am going crazy.
Currently, I take my resveratrol with Lecithin and some Fish oil. But now I see that Longevinex has added IP-6 to the mix. I see 75mg of IP6 on the label. Is this a safe amount? Would supplementing with Jarrow Formulas IP6 (500mg) be too much?
Then there is quercetin. I've read conflicting reports on using and not using with resveratrol. I stopped using it with every dosing of resveratrol after reading the article
"SIRT1 stimulation by polyphenols is affected by their stability and metabolism" by Vincent C.J. de Boer et al.
I'll use it once a week with one of my dosings since the results were done in vitro and I have my doubts. Any input on this?
Finally, I've been wondering what would happen if one paired resveratrol with bioperine (piperine). In one study, piperine increased the bioavailability of curcumin by 2000% by inhibiting glucoronidation. PMID: 9619120 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] and increased EGCG bioavailability in another PMID: 15284381 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]. I've used this combination of resv./bioperine twice with no ill effects, except for that "heat" sensation from the spice extract. Is glucoronidation good or bad when it applies to the bioavailability of resveratrol?

Aaarrgh! Too much info. to assimilate!

[health_nutty]

Eternalone,

Bioprene is shunned by many here because of its ability to increase the bioavailability of carcinogens. You'll have to do a search for the details.

[fearfrost]

My question though is the following, do all people here feel the same way about RevGenetics as fearfrost? If so, why? I am trying to understand the issue.

Anthony Loera,
Let me make clear why I feel the way that I do about RevGenetics and R500. Basically it comes down to "red flags"... things that I notice about your company that in my experience point to bad-news-bears!

To make it clear in the most efficient way, here is what I see as "red flags" (in no specific order):
1. RevGenetics.com looks like it is made by a fly by night company and makes some very bold claims (one quick example out of many: "Enjoy a longer life."... not proven, how can you claim that?)
2. This saxiephon guy comes aboard imminst.org pumping your product. Is that you? I have no idea, but right away his motives are transparent
3. The fact that you and saxiephon so recently joined imminst.org.... with the immediate intent on soliciting or talking about your company / product
4. your affiliate program (paydotcom). Why would a start up company require an affiliate program so soon? Maybe it's good marketing, I dont know, but to me it seems like you should be building up a good customer base first and working on developing great products before immediately jumping for an affiliate program. Affiliate programs remind me of those shady online casinos or something. It brings up the question: if your product is so good, why do you need affiliates to sell it for you.
5. Internet Spamming: this is probably my biggest red flag. You are all over the web promoting your product, my gosh! Check out the links at the bottom of this post for a few examples (ie: wikipedia?!?!, amazon, ebay, tons of comments all over the web (Mr. Loera aka: revgenetics, horseshoe, anthony, a, etc))
6. This is a personal issue, others might not care as much: mistakes (spelling, math, etc). Mistakes dont really give a professional reflection. I understand we are all human, but if you trying to run a business, you should be very very careful. (especially in comments that you smear all over the web (see links below). Also, some of your posts are very immature (see links). It's kinda weird, but things you probably thought were private are actually very public and easily linked to your company.

Too many red flags for me. Bottom line: avoid RevGenetics

People may not have a problem with these things, but my experiences tell me to be highly skeptical of RevGenetics. Addison Strack also brings up many good points. I am sorry if some of my points are incorrect and untrue, these are just things that stick out to me. Maybe you have a great company and awesome product, that is why I give you this public challenge:
send your pills to a well-known independent assay company and have them analyzed by HPLC. Even better, buy the resveratrol bioactivity assay that is available and post the results along with the HPLC results. For your company, this would be well worth the investment and would instantly (in my view) clear up whether you offer a good product. Also, you might want to send in for the consumerlabs resveratrol testing that is coming up, not sure if its too late or not.

Take it or leave it, your choice.

One thing I do have to say is that I admire your calm and level-headed responses. To me that builds credibility and helps me gain confidence in your company. Nice job.

Cheers,
fearfrost


links:
http://en.wikipedia....knotweed#_ref-2 (did you do this?? using wikipedia to advertise)
http://en.wikipedia....f-RevGenetics_0 (honestly, this is clever, but shady)
http://sawg.blogspot...ble-que-el.html (so you know a little spanish I see)
http://www.digg.com/...vard_study_Dose (are you horseshoe?)
http://clipmarks.com...D-203DD299BA69/ (yup, yup.... you must be horseshoe)
http://www.digg.com/..._can_smoke_them (look under comments for "horseshoe")
http://trusted.md/bl...he_big_mac_pill (check out the comments section.... to me, all of this is spamming = red flag)
http://www.fightagin...ives/001020.php (again, the comments)
http://search.ebay.c...geneticsQQhtZ-1 (quite a few people bidding a few days ago, hope they know what they are getting)
http://www.amazon.com/ (search revgenetics... man you are a busy beaver on the web)
http://thenaturalcur...-your-cold.html (comments)
I could find more, but Im tired....

By the way, are you associated with Bioforte by any chance? Just curious since you always post their link too.... or is that just to give the illusion/appearance of an unbiased post?

[ryan1113]

On the other hand, with regard to the advertising of this product, that's just reality.

It takes a considerable investment of time, energy, and money usually to start up even a small business, and regardless of what you are selling, if you want the business to have even a small chance of succeeding in the age of Wal-Marts and Amazons, etc, you have to try hard to push and promote what you're selling. It's just reality. Unfortunately, the amount of fraud and deception that's occurred historically on the web with small companies has ruined it for all.

In this case, where a "single" supplement is being sold where other businesses are selling hundreds/thousands of them, the chances of succeeding without actively advertising the product in internet forums is about zero. Using other forms of forms of advertising for the business on the web, say for instance pay-per-click advertising on search engines, will not give a positive return on investment for a single low-cost product alone unless you are one of the few to be offering it or there is a substantial mark-up in price.

So, by telling companies like these that they shouldn't be actively promoting a single product in forums you are essentially making the statement that such tiny specialty shops should be eliminated from the web in favor of corporate chains or other small businesses that managed to get a foot-hold early on years ago before the web became dominated by large corporations.

In order to overcome the general suspicion of running a "fly by night" company that can't be trusted, it's important to be very up front about everything and go the extra mile to show people you are honest and respectable and that you have knowledge and skills necessary to operate a business selling a healthcare product that people are ingesting.

People will want to know exactly who is behind the business, what their experience is, a personal biography, etc. They will want to know where this stuff is coming from, the standards under which it is packaged and encapsulated, proof of its potency and purity, etc.
Just putting a website up isn't enough.

Many people have been victims of small supplement companies with disreputable business practices that might have even endangered their health; businesses run by drug addicts who don't even use their real names, etc. Businesses run by people encapsulating products in their home kitchen, etc. There are risk involved when purchasing any type of capsules due to sanitation and storage conditions. People buying popular and respected name brands for drugs and supplements know (or reasonably believe) that the products are produced and packaged in special facilities designed for that purpose that meet FDA standards.

[Anthony_Loera]

opus12ga, health_nutty, Addison Strack,

I understand the information regarding a company is something important to you all. Here are some comments:

Natural Products Association (NPA, formerly NNFA) – RevGenetics is a member of the NPA, following GMP standards.

American Botanical Council (ABC) – No current Resveratrol defined education for their constituents, just news as you would get on average AP, or New York times story.
American Herbal Pharmacopoeia (AHP) - No current Resveratrol certifications
American Herbalists Guild (AHG) - No guild members have issued medicinal use of Resveratrol
Council for Responsible Nutrition (CRN) – Only Promotes Self regulation and GMP
Herb Research Foundation (HRF) – Same as ABC above regarding Resveratrol
Institute for Nutraceutical Advancement(INA) – Does not certify Resveratrol at this time

• Is that the content of trans-resveratrol? COA assures us it is Trans-Resveratrol.

• Do you follow GMP standards? Yes.

• Do you just, like, buy the extract and encapsulate it without checking for emodin content? Emodin content is checked by batch, that is why depending on the batch we have seen 25mg-65mg.

• Do you guarantee a certain level of trans-resveratrol? It’s guarrenteed based on testing, depending on storage it may change.

• where you are located, where your facilities are located? We are located in Miami.

• Whether you're doing the job yourself or subcontracting to shady companies in asia who will mislabel the product so as to save on customs tax? We encapsulate ourselves no subcontractors. When we buy from a supplier, it is a very well known supplier to the retail market.

• How you encapsulate, where you get your stuff from? This depends on the Market, we have at least 3-4 suppliers on hand, one in the US (Although now we are talking to a second one that is established in the US…) , The others in Asia, India and Czechoslovakia.

• How you know your stuff is pure? It is 50% Resveratrol, it’s not pure.

• Why the price is so good compared to other older, established brands that presumably don't have your upfront cost of starting up new, clean, well run facilities just for making this one specific pill? We are a comparatively small business without much of the corporate structure that suppresses ideas, and if you researched the vitamin and supplement market, you will easily see 500% to 1000% markups for many of the vitamins and supplements you purchase. It is not hard to meet the low price at this point.

• There should be independent testing made publicly available so we know you're on the up and up? I will check with my partner who has a UCLA Doctorate in micro-biology what he suggests regarding this question.

• I would shit my pants in joy if you had a few pictures up there of your production facilities with the people bottling my stuff in lab coats and latex gloves smiling and letting me know that they exist. Ok, I understand that you will be very happy. Got it (this helps, I am a bit naïve when it comes to marketing so bear with me…)

• Imagine me, as your customer, eating your burger in the dark. Assure me. Enlighten me about every step of the process so I know that the burger you are giving to me to eat in the dark is wholesome. I'd want to see a picture of the kitchen so I know it's clean. I'd want some evidence of where you got the meat, what kind of meat it is. I'd want to hear all about how you cook the meat so that it isn't bloody and raw. This and more. I really like your analogy, and will work to out the information out there. I do need to talk to my partners about it, and I do appreciate the post. It helps greatly.


Fearfrost, I do not know saxiephon, but I appreciate his comments. Our company is small, but agile and the partners have a lot of experience in various aspects of the company. As I mentioned previously, regarding marketing the internet is still the wild west, so affiliates are part of it. Why would we shoot ourselves in the foot and limit our marketing? It makes no sense, does it?

Personal Issue with math because I didn’t fully read a previous post? I’ll accept your personal issue, and work on reading posts in a clearer way so as to not make mistakes for you, although without mistakes there is no progress, we would simply be a bunch of scared people not daring to take a step into the unknown.

Fearfrost, you mentioned the following: Bottom line, is avoid RevGenetics… and get your pills tested… Take it or leave it? I understand what you are looking for, but to avoid RevGenetics? I think we should say, that for people who need more information from RevGenetics. Simply wait for it. In the meantime go spend your hard earned cash on somethimg like BioFlu, or 98% Resveratrol from Orchid.

If you have enough information, go ahead and purchase from RevGenetics.

Ryann1113, thanks for the comments, most people believe you have to start at the top with millions of dollars and large campaigns to be a viable company. That is not true, but if you are at the top, you will promote your product in a way to crush your growing competition, be it by creating a new license requirements, new laws to prevent folks from selling something above a purity level to the public, new product licensing techniques, etc.

Because we are a small company our resources are limited. We would like to engage people with different products and services, but we have decided to run with Resveratrol at this time. We don’t sell other supplements at this time, we are trying to focus only on this one item that we believe will help people, and produce a healthy profit with our limited marketing campaigns.


I am not sure if I answered everyone’s questions, and if I fat-fingered something, I apologize. I will look at all your feedback, and move to be more informative on our website about our product and our company.

Thank you all for the criticism, It has made things clearer for me.

Anthony Loera
RevGenetics









[B]

Edited by revgenetics, 13 February 2007 - 08:38 PM.

[cellfighter]

Consider selling loose powder, too.

That would be very unprofessional.

[cellfighter]

I've seen worse as far as unprofessional behavior is concerned, cellfighter.

Such as?

You wouldn't believe how many supplement companies are actually some idiot bottling stuff in his kitchen.

Name someone aside from Adam Kamil.

[Anthony_Loera]

Addison Strack,

Thanks for the feedback. I am trying to get the partners together regarding the suggestions.

As to selling powder retail (not wholesale), I am on the fence on this. I was emailed recently about it by a couple of folks who made a pretty good case about it.

I don't believe it's a matter of 'professionalism', I believe it's a matter of need and what the public wants.

Here is what I mean. Over the weekend I went to Costco with my wife, and found 2 types of bouillon we could purchase. One was a big plastic bottle with individually wrapped little bouillon cubes which we were used to using. the other was just a big bottle of bouillon powder that was being sold right next to it.

At first glance, I was thinking I didn't want the powder because maybe my wife would make a mistake and put too much into the pot. Without me saying anything, my wife reached for the one with the individual wrapped cubes...

Later I realized the same would apply to Resveratrol, most people will be quite comfortable with the individual capsules so that they would not think about measurement, but there are those individuals who wouldn't mind taking it upon themselves to measure an exact amount, if the price was cheaper.

So I sit on the fence, and I am still chewing on it.


Anthony Loera
RevGenetics

[tintinet]

Have you tasted the powder itself, unencapsulated?

Some have reported it's not all that pleasant an experience.

[DukeNukem]

Pure RSV is nearly tasteless, from personal experience.

[Matt]

RSV powder from the capsule has a weak taste IMO. you could put it on anything and it would only mildly affect the taste of the food or drink.

[health_nutty]

Have you tasted the powder itself, unencapsulated?

Some have reported it's not all that pleasant an experience.

I mix it in my water. It's not tasty, but it's not horrible either.

[tintinet]

Thanks for the input on gustatory tolerability. I already knew the high purity synthetic (Orchid, in my case) was quite easy to take from personal experrience. I haven't tried 50% or higher purity plant extracts unencapsulated although I do have some BAC 50% powder on my shelf.

[niner]

From what I'm reading here, I'd be surprised if half the country isn't taking resveratrol in a couple of years. I'm looking forward to getting 200 gm of the pure product in the next group purchase.

[tintinet]

Mais oui! Beaucoup de gens l'avaient déjà pris par l'intermédiaire du vin rouge, non ?

[niner]

Mais oui! Beaucoup de gens l'avaient déjà pris par l'intermédiaire du vin rouge, non ?

Well, sure, but now they'll be washing down megadoses with a 40 of Schlitz Malt Liquor. [thumb]

[tintinet]

Killer! Ah to be eternally young, alcoholic, homeless, and unemployed!

"The sub-sample that reported drinking in the previous 90 days (n=297) was 88 percent African American, 72 percent male, and 35 percent unemployed. Compared to regular beer and hard-liquor consumers, MLB drinkers were more likely to be homeless, receive public assistance for housing, and not be employed; MLB drinkers reported significantly higher rates of daily or near daily drinking, drinks per day on drinking days, and daily average alcohol consumption; MLB drinkers were also more likely to smoke while drinking, drink with same-sex friends, and drink outdoors."

Characteristics of Malt Liquor Beer Drinkers in a Low-Income, Racial Minority Community Sample. Bluthenthal RN, BrownTaylor D, Guzman-Becerra N, Robinson PL. Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, Vol. 29, No. 3, March 2005, pp. 402-409

[Ghostrider]

I don't think one would last very long being alcoholic, homeless, and unemployed. There are other factors that will directly result in death...