1708 replies to this topic

[eternaltraveler]

I'm not saying his reasoning is perfect. I haven't read all the articles he referenced so I don't know. When I have time I intend too, but time is one thing I'm lacking of late. (i've read all the abstracts, but that hardly counts as reading the article)

[tom a]

elrond,

Most of my objections are contained in my original response.

My point is NOT that there is no evidence of limitations in resveratrol's potential for extending life, for example, since the conflicting results on yeast cells certainly present some evidence that the case is murky.

The point I was making about Michael R's argument is that it very selectively chooses the data it chooses to incorporate, refusing to acknowledge certain things that are very remarkable in the Sinclair experiment and the Auwerx experiment. Unless those two independent experiments are both fakes -- and I can't imagine why they should be -- anyone with half a brain should pay them, and the particular things they appear to demonstrate, VERY close attention.

Now why do I attribute his argument to ideology? Precisely because they exhibit the classic sort of fallacy of ideologues: submitting only highly selective evidence.

This does not look like the product of someone who wants to look at both sides of the picture. You may call it a strawman argument, but I know an ideologue when I see one.

[eternaltraveler]

The point I was making about Michael R's argument is that it very selectively chooses the data it chooses to incorporate, refusing to acknowledge certain things that are very remarkable in the Sinclair experiment and the Auwerx experiment.

what precisely is very remarkable about the Sinclair and Auwerx experiment?

[xanadu]

I am still not convinced by all this "purity" talk. The so called contaminants are nothing but things like quercetin and natural plant material like emodin. This reminds me a little bit of the hype that was passed off on us a while back about how RSV had to be processed under nitrogen because it supposedly broke down right away on exposure to air and even exposure to light. I at first was the only one expressing skepticism of these claims and they subsequently turned out to be false. RSV has been shown to be fairly stable and not much affected by atmospheric oxygen or light. If someone plans to take heroic amounts of the stuff, then they might be concerned about laxative effects or some such. The person planning to take a gram and a half a daymight be one of those.

The person making the "huge profit" by reselling Orchid's stuff is apparently Paul who was selling people a bill of goods that he was just turning it over more or less at cost. No, I will not buy a bottle of the stuff for $100 or so when I can get the equivalent active ingredients for a tiny fraction of that amount. Beyond a Century sells an extract with 50% RSV content 50gm for $8.50. That's 25gm RSV for $8.60 or about 33 cents a gram and it's natural source. Since I am not going to take super hero doses and am not convinced I would have any problems if I did, I'm not interested in a product with probably 1000% markup or even higher. Paul was asking $4 a gram with 100 gram minimum and he stated that if it got lost in the mail or he never received his, you were out of luck. Hell, if I was making that kind of profit I'd at least pay to insure the delivery.

Anthony, $130 for 60 caps @ 490mg is over $4 a gram. I have no objection to people making a profit, even a very large profit. I do not object to you or Paul using this forum to peddle products. This helps the consumer by offering us choices. I note that neither you nor Paul or other sellers have paid for a membership which I would think would be standard. None of my business, really, I'm just pointing out the facts. It may be a good policy not to require that in order to encourage vendors to come here and share knowledge as well as offer choices. I'm not selling anything, I do not work for BAC nor receive any compensation from them. I just thought I would bring this info forward so that those not totally taken by the hype will know there are other choices out there. If it isn't hype, then convince us with more solid evidence.

[steelheader]

xanadu,

I share your sentiments about res purity. But emodin effects have topped me out at around 500 to 700 mg per day. It doesn't bother me or the dog a bit, but my wife complains. If I was working around other people, passing that much gas might be sort of embarassing.

The catalog description of the BAC product you describe is a little confusing. The product uses a 50% extract but there is relatively little of it in the powder compared to other ingredients.

BAC pure extract powder (again a 50% extract) goes for $12 for 25 grams, or around a buck per gram of res.

That's what I use. It feels like it's working great. It's the cheapest res I've found.

[tintinet]

No problem,

Send me an email to anthony @ revgenetics.com with this request, and I will personally send you a copy for our latest batch.

I believe all contaminants are well below range of the US water EPA standards, and or provided in the COA in PPM. So you may have more contaminants in the water you drink than in our product.

What are the water EPA standards you ask? see here
http://www.epa.gov/s...dex.html#d_dbps

Great, thanks!

BTW, do you have any plans to sell a higher purity resveratrol extract or synthetic based supplement? Or is that now forbiden by the U.S. government?

[Anthony_Loera]

anthony,

I have no particular reason to doubt that your product is pretty much what it is advertised to be, as far as content goes.

As I said, the thing that would make it more attractive to me is higher purity at a reasonable price.

I am working on it....

[niner]

The person making the "huge profit" by reselling Orchid's stuff is apparently Paul who was selling people a bill of goods that he was just turning it over more or less at cost. No, I will not buy a bottle of the stuff for $100 or so when I can get the equivalent active ingredients for a tiny fraction of that amount. Beyond a Century sells an extract with 50% RSV content 50gm for $8.50. That's 25gm RSV for $8.60 or about 33 cents a gram and it's natural source. Since I am not going to take super hero doses and am not convinced I would have any problems if I did, I'm not interested in a product with probably 1000% markup or even higher. Paul was asking $4 a gram with 100 gram minimum and he stated that if it got lost in the mail or he never received his, you were out of luck. Hell, if I was making that kind of profit I'd at least pay to insure the delivery.

We know what the group purchase price is- between 3 & 4 dollars a gram. The only question here is what Orchid charges in multi kilogram quantities. Paul deserves something for his trouble, and it's not like you can drive over to the nearest GNC and pick up emodin-free RSV. I don't know Orchid's price, but from my experience with research chemicals, I don't think Paul is making much on this. If anyone knows Orchid's price, please post so we can get this sorted. The issue of things getting lost in the mail has bothered a lot of people. Obviously, domestic insurance is cheap, but I think that the risk was a problem with Customs. I don't know what that risk is, although I'm betting that it's small enough that I'm willing to be involved. I can certainly understand that Paul would not want to be left holding the bag for tens of thousands of dollars.

I might also note that RSV is not a very complicated molecule; I would think that some competition would be developing in the synthetic market. Orchid does have a synthesis patent- if that happens to be the only easy way to make it, then maybe it's Orchid that's making the huge profit.

[Anthony_Loera]

Anthony, $130 for 60 caps @ 490mg is over $4 a gram. I have no objection to people making a profit, even a very large profit. I do not object to you or Paul using this forum to peddle products. This helps the consumer by offering us choices. I note that neither you nor Paul or other sellers have paid for a membership which I would think would be standard.

You can always get RevGenetics R500 120 Capsules (500mg per capsule) for $144... costs alot less per gram, and it's great for you as purity is not an issue.

Personally I take 4 pills a day (that is 2 whole grams), and emodin is not an issue, but I have mentioned this before.

thanks

Anthony Loera
RevGenetics

[Anthony_Loera]

Niner...

Do you still believe Paul can purchase his latest 'synthetic' RSV from Orchid?

[Anthony_Loera]

Great, thanks!

BTW, do you have any plans to sell a higher purity resveratrol extract or synthetic based supplement?  Or is that now forbiden by the U.S. government?

Higher purity, I am working on it.

synthetic, it's only available for research at this point, that is from the horse's mouth "Orchid". I can't do anything about it at this point. I can order some from them, but unless I want to be banned from using them again, I could only hand it over to my partner Dr.V in California so he can use it in his current study.

When it becomes available, we will sell it.

thanks
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics

[jack868]

a

[stephend]

health nutty

Sorry it took so long to reply to your question regarding my intended dosage. I have been reading everyone’s post here and other places that I have found. It seems everyone is slowly increasing their dosage a little at a time (I know this is to be careful, but I also think it is because they are not getting the results they are looking for). Maybe we expect a big bang

I plan on committing to a year of usage at this level (as long as there are no adverse developments for me). This will allow me to train and race through each season complete to see if there is any notable improvement in my physical performance.

Male 46yo
6’-0” 170lb <10% BF
BP 130/70
Resting Heart Rate: 40bbm
Aprox. daily calorie intake 1700-5000 (based on calorie out put)
Typical Percentages: Fat 20-35%, Carbohydrates 45-65%, and Protein 10-35%
Avg. Daily calorie expended thru exercise 2000
Endurance athlete
Consume no alcohol
Non smoker
High caffeine user

Intended Trans-RSV dose 1500-2000 mg/day
Which is between19.5 & 26mg/kg/day

Maxwatt

Thanks for the advice on Ramping Up, I started 500 today and will increase 500 per week if my stomach can handle it.

[olderbutwiser]

<snip>
Niner,

I have finally spoken to Orchid, the reps name is Satish. After exchanging information, he explained to me that the 'synthetic' resveratrol is only for R&D purposes at this time. Because of 2 major companies having applied to the FDA as an investigational drug, they are hoping the FDA will classify it as a new drug. They want to be very careful that only research personnel are provided the 'synthetic' version, as they do not want the FDA to find any fault during this period, that may cause issues with Orchid.

He then told me a story of a person buying a batch from Orchid a couple months back, stating it would only be used for research, signing and agreeing to that the 'synthetic' resveratrol would only be used in that manner. Afterwords, the buyer was found selling it on the internet to a large group of people for a high profit, the person blatantly bought the 'synthetic' version and sold it to people before any human trials of the 'synthetic' version.

Does this sound familiar niner?

I'd like some confirmation of the profiteering accusation of the Wakfer group buy - like a cut and paste of the original correspondence or a price list from Orchid. Otherwise this statement is libelous.

The original group buy Orchid product was represented by Paul to cost <quote from morelife.org>

The best price for a bulk purchase would require a purchase of 11 kg
for US$30,250 ($2.75/gram, shipping included).


The reported price per gram from Orchid went up significantly at lower amounts than 11kg
We (the group buyers) received the initial shipment based on an 11kg lot purchase even though Orchid could only provide 4kg.
Had the initial purchase actually been for a 4kg lot, what we received was well below the wholesale cost of a 4kg lot.

There are some people that seem to have a particular bias towards the group buy. I - as a group buy participant - have not read one single negative post towards the progress on the buy, the costs, or the dissemination of timely information. The fact that others find different alternative sources preferable is great. The fact that some seem to want to spout off with unfounded and uninformed libelous statements is a bit odd - unless there is a competing commercial reason.

For those who bought the synthetic version from Paul, I hope you are doing well, and I would ask you to consider a natural version... at least until the synthetic stuff has been proven safe. You can always try RevGenetics, or other brands of your choice.

Thank you
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics

OBW

Edited by olderbutwiser, 23 February 2007 - 12:19 AM.

[jack868]

marqueemoon wrote:

Jack, You mentioned that after taking Longevinex you temporarily noticed fewer grey hairs. Can you elaborate on this? How dramatic was the effect, and how do you know you weren't just imagining it because of placebo, or it wasn't provoked by another change in your environment/lifestyle?

Good question... Well I admit there was one potential, slightly confounding effect, which is that I dumped a quart of black hair dye on my head at the same time.

No, just kidding.

What happened is that at the time I started taking the resv., I had just seen the first few gray hairs (literally 3 or 4) set into my otherwise lusciously uniform dark mane. [thumb] After taking resv. two or three weeks, those disappeared completely, as far as I could see. I can't think of any other product or lifestyle choice known to accomplish that (barring of course dye.) Of course, in this case, the change was easy to see, because the "after" state was basically zero, which is something pretty easy to measure. Either something is zero or it's not. It would probably have been harder to measure if I had started with half a head of gray hair, and resv. only partially reversed that. If someone wanted to remove doubt, they might want to take a picture of themselves before and after, and show it to a friend for an independent assessment. Otherwise, they would just have to try to be honest with themselves, and hope for changes that are big enough to be unmistakeable. I think there is a point past which a change such as this is drastic enough to be reliably identified, without too much worry of biased effects; the question, of course, is how much. Regardless, I apparently am not alone in the experience I've had; I've heard of other people also reporting partial reversal of graying with resv.

revgenetics wrote:

Send me an email to anthony @ revgenetics.com with this request, and I will personally send you a copy for our latest batch.

Thanks for your forthcoming nature, Anthony. I will take you up on that. As a journalist I must accept and keep on file any offers of relevant documentation available on one of my subjects of interest.

Tom A wrote:

I do think that your suggestion for people to try to describe their regimens, product name included, as well as what they've observed about their own health, is a very positive thing all around.

I personally am a bit skeptical that much could be inferred about which products are most effective on this basis -- but who knows? In any case, even if the products seem mostly indistinguishable on the evidence, it will give us all considerably more information about resveratrol than we now have.

What's certainly true is that the more data, the better. We can each draw our own inferences as we see fit.

Tom, it's nice to have your general endorsement of my proposal. I agree with your analysis completely.

Since I haven't heard anyone else submit strong objections, I'll go ahead and ask anybody who feels they have some valuable contributions along these lines to make them!

Please let us know your exact resv. regimen, including brand names, or if your regimen has changed over time, specify that also. And please list any effects you've noticed that you honestly feel are probably attributable to the resv, having clearly appeared at the same time as your regimen(s), and not attributable to other factors such as lifestyle and/or other medications, supplements or diet changes. If you're not sure about an effect, but want to mention it anyway, go ahead and do so; just be honest and say you're not sure. And please list your weight.

I'm happy with people submitting the info right to this board. But if, for whatever reason, you feel some info is too personal for you to publicise to the world (understandable); or, if there are too many submissions and people start getting annoyed with the glut; then free to instead email me the info at je klu c@ ao l.com (remove spaces); in that case I'll compile and average it in with the rest, and I pledge not to release your name or individual info without permission.

I may well come back to you with further questions. I may even develop a questionnaire at some point to try to systematize things, and then try to reframe your data in the questionnaire, but I'll try to get into that nitty-gritty off this board so as not to bore people with every tiny step of the process. As far as sending in blood results - maybe hold off for now, as that introduces complications; we have some debate over how valuable those would be, it's not clear who here is qualified to analyze them (not me), etc. We can talk more about that later and try to deal with it appropriately.

When I am able to, I promise to make my results available to the group in the form of some sort of chart(s) that I will devise to the best of my ability, with any and all suggestions as to how to draft that chart(s) most welcome. I don't claim any sort of monopoly on this process. Other people can even start their own charts as far as I'm concerned! Let's just try not to have this process take over the whole message board or anything like that, I know people want to have real conversations on other topics.

I suspect the real problem will be the opposite, and I won't get as much response as I'd like. That's OK. People are busy and don't have time to read and respond to every post on a bulletin board. I may, as the days & weeks go by, needle a few of our esteemed members here personally for information (probably those who appear to have been taking larger amounts of resv. for long times.) Hope you won't mind if I do.

[niner]

Niner...  Do you still believe Paul can purchase his latest 'synthetic' RSV from Orchid?

No, it's already been made clear that Orchid is not selling synthetic RSV to individuals. I was interested in addressing your accusation that Paul is profiteering. If Orchid's price is more than, say, $2.00/gm, then he isn't. You're acting like Paul is a competitor of yours, which is ridiculous. Paul is interested in science, and I don't believe that he is getting rich off of any of this. BTW, why do you put 'synthetic' in quotes? Do you really think that he is scamming people? What's next, are you going to claim he's cutting it with strychnine? Your wild accusations are just adding to the long list of red flags on RevGenetics.

[Brian]

Wow, I go away for 48 hrs, and this thread has become badly hijacked. No reports from folks in the 500 club - instead page after page of other meanderings. Why not go start your own threads for this folks? I realize the temptation to hijack well-read threads to maximize the exposure to your particular pet ideas, but geez...

[tintinet]

...Personally I take 4 pills a day (that is 2 whole grams), and emodin is not an issue, but I have mentioned this before.

thanks

Anthony Loera
RevGenetics

Thanks for the input, Anthony.

Did you start at that dose (4 pills/2 g resveratrol QD), or ramp up? If so, how fast? Any effects, side or
other, noted?

[jack868]

Wow, I go away for 48 hrs, and this thread has become badly hijacked. No reports from folks in the 500 club - instead page after page of other meanderings. Why not go start your own threads for this folks? I realize the temptation to hijack well-read threads to maximize the exposure to your particular pet ideas, but geez...

Brian, I have a sinking feeling that your denunciation of hijackers with pet ideas refers to me.

I will leave the thread if it is the consensus of the group that I am off-topic. Any comments/reactions anyone, please post them. I thought I had something valuable to contribute. It was an idea that would particularly depend on input from high-dose resv. users, which use this thread. Do I technically fit the membership standards for the 500 club? No... I confess, I take only 300 mg a day.

[marqueemoon]

Please don't go, Jack. The discussion you've started on this thread has been far more interesting than anything preceding it.

[jack868]

Wow, thank you Marqueemoon! However, I was just thinking, and realized Brian was right on one point. I have proposed a somewhat complex project here, and if it were pursued fully in this thread, it would suck up a lot of space that the thread wasn't exactly intended for by its creators. I should start a separate thread to deal with that project in detail. I will keep on posting here from time to time with updates and comments, however -- but I'll try to carry out the bulk of the work in the other thread so as to keep the details from getting in the way here. I will create the thread under "supplements" and call it something like "resveratrol experiences," or a better title if I come up with one. I don't have time tonight but I will try to start it tomorrow with an introductory post explaining clearly the purpose of the thread. I think that should make everybody happy. If there are any objections please let me know by tomorrow. Now... on to making sure that thread doesn't get hijacked...

[tom a]

Jack, I should think that your suggestion fits well within this thread. It would be pretty unnatural to set up a distinct thread dealing with basically the same content.

[tom a]

I wrote my response above before you posted your alternate suggestion.

If you want to start a new thread, that's sensible too.

What I suspect will happen, though, is that one thread will suck all the attention to it. I'd guess your new thread would win.

[tintinet]

Perhaps a 2 stage approach to Jack's proposal might be helpful. At this early stage, posting is often highly subjective, given the short time many people have been ingesting relatively larger doses of resveratrol, both extracts and synthetic.


Personally, although I've been taking lower doses for years (mostly via Longevinex), in past weeks and months my dose has increased comparatively massively, and includes a variety of resveratrol sources from extract and synthetic forms.

If interested people could start keeping a personal log including dates, amounts of resveratrol ingested, type (extract with percentage purity and source vs. synthetic), time of day/dosing schedule (QD, BID, TID, etc. +/- food, liquid, etoh-wine, etc.) objective measurements (bp/pulse, basal body temp., fasting glucose, other lab studies, weight, physical performance related such as running times, weight lifting personal maximums, etc.) as well as more subjective observations (mood, energy, appetite, libido, stamina/endurance, etc.), it would likely be much more easily tabulated in a thread with specific and standard format and more easily analyzed than attempting to collate scattered posts from this thread.

[Da55id]

also age and gender are critical dimensions. If resv is moderating damage or improving metabolism then it should be most apparent in those in whom the damage has already happened.

[opus12ga]

Malbecman:

FYI. I ordered 250 mg caps (suspended in olive oil) at 99% pure from a manufacturer in China. Bottled cost (including customs duties, shipping, etc.) was about $45 per bottle of 100 caps.

For those interested, and yes perhaps I am nuts, since the order arrived a couple of weeks ago I raised my daily dosage to 6250 mg/day. So far my energy level has increased cumulatively, my sleep is better (subjectively), my appetite is down and I am beginning to lose excess weight (3 lbs in the last week).

Regards,

Opus

[lief]

If it is 99% pure then it doesn't have the emodin, which is now limiting my own use (with Countrylife product). Can you tell us how or where you ordered this? Thanks!

Malbecman:

FYI. I ordered 250 mg caps (suspended in olive oil) at 99% pure from a manufacturer in China.  Bottled cost (including customs duties, shipping, etc.) was about $45 per bottle of 100 caps.

For those interested, and yes perhaps I am nuts, since the order arrived a couple of weeks ago I raised my daily dosage to 6250 mg/day.  So far my energy level has increased cumulatively, my sleep is better (subjectively), my appetite is down and I am beginning to lose excess weight (3 lbs in the last week). 

Regards,

Opus

[opus12ga]

I went trolling through the export websites. I will find the name of the company. I spent about 2 months going back and forth before ordering. I think the actual charges could be lower if a large group got together. As is, I ordered 300 bottles (which was less than their usual minimum). It might be worth having an independent lab confirm that what I received actually meets the specifications, exactly, but it seems to.

[tom a]

opus,

I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying.

You actually ordered 300 bottles (each containing 25 gms of resv) for your personal use?

That would be about $40,000 worth.

Also, wouldn't it be a relatively trivial further expense to verify that they contain what they say they do?

[tom a]

Oops,

I guess it would be about $13,500 worth.

Still a LOT of money for most of us.