"500 club" 500mg of trans-resveratrol per day
#211
Posted 23 February 2007 - 03:44 PM
There are some people that seem to have a particular bias towards the group buy. I - as a group buy participant - have not read one single negative post towards the progress on the buy, the costs, or the dissemination of timely information. The fact that others find different alternative sources preferable is great. The fact that some seem to want to spout off with unfounded and uninformed libelous statements is a bit odd - unless there is a competing commercial reason.
OBW[/quote]
OBW,
It was a phone conversation, why don't you call them yourself and ask for Satish and get it straight from Orchid. You guys really are pretty smart, capable, and don't need to take my word for it so I will ask you to pick up the phone and call. Simply complaining when you have a question, will not answer your question. Find out, and take action...
I believe Orchid is doing really great work, and want there company viewed in a positive way. Having a person buy from them, and state they are using it for R&D, then turning around and selling it to the general public when the FDA has classified it as an investigational drug... it's not something that may not look good when it comes to the FDA final decision for their product. Orchid is a good company, doing great work. Mistakes happen and hopefully Paul doesn't mis-represent himself to them.
Thanks
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics
#212
Posted 23 February 2007 - 03:47 PM
The price of $1.80/gm in the product you bought is certainly a very attractive one, especially given the claimed purity.
It's a price, though, that at least makes me feel somewhat skeptical that it is what it claims to be -- I'd personally want some kind of convincing evidence that it meets its specs.
#213
Posted 23 February 2007 - 03:56 PM
Malbecman:
FYI. I ordered 250 mg caps (suspended in olive oil) at 99% pure from a manufacturer in China. Bottled cost (including customs duties, shipping, etc.) was about $45 per bottle of 100 caps.
For those interested, and yes perhaps I am nuts, since the order arrived a couple of weeks ago I raised my daily dosage to 6250 mg/day. So far my energy level has increased cumulatively, my sleep is better (subjectively), my appetite is down and I am beginning to lose excess weight (3 lbs in the last week).
Regards,
Opus
The dosages just keep getting bigger and bigger (remember when we thought 800mg/day was huge). How long to you plan on keeping up that dosage? How long did it take for you to ramp up to that dosage?
#214
Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:03 PM
Brian, I have a sinking feeling that your denunciation of hijackers with pet ideas refers to me.
I will leave the thread if it is the consensus of the group that I am off-topic. Any comments/reactions anyone, please post them. I thought I had something valuable to contribute. It was an idea that would particularly depend on input from high-dose resv. users, which use this thread. Do I technically fit the membership standards for the 500 club? No... I confess, I take only 300 mg a day.
Since I started the thread I'll chime in. Jack, I think your idea definitely fits into the framework of the thread and will contribute a lot. Many thanks!
You are part of the club. When I started the thread very very few people were taking over 500mg per day. I just threw out the 500mg/day number as a catchy big round number to grab the attention of all those taking "larger" doses of t-res (200mg - 500mg+).
#215
Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:10 PM
Higher purity, I am working on it.
synthetic, it's only available for research at this point, that is from the horse's mouth "Orchid". I can't do anything about it at this point. I can order some from them, but unless I want to be banned from using them again, I could only hand it over to my partner Dr.V in California so he can use it in his current study.
When it becomes available, we will sell it.
You are in florida, your manufacturing facilities are in florida, but the partner who is a doctor is in California? What is the nature of his contribution to your enterprise?
He comes to Florida to look over facility, processes, staff and US EPA standards. Advises us of product development, safety, the science, and I believe he is investigating RSV himself in a study that will benefit RevGenetics products. Personally he has been a dear friend for over 20 years, married, and currently teaches in California, and most of all is excited about resveratrol.
To tell you the truth, I haven't seen him this excited since I visited him once in his lab prior to graduating, and he started to talk about his work with virus research he was doing.
Hopefully I can put his name out with a RevGenetics press release soon, after he comes down to visit at the end of this month.
Thanks
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics
#216
Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:24 PM
Yeah, the 6250 mg/day dosage starts to put you into the realm of the mice in the Auwerx study.
You're a brave soul. We'll be very interested to hear of your progress.
Edited by tom a, 23 February 2007 - 04:46 PM.
#217
Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:42 PM
Niner...� Do you still believe Paul can purchase his latest 'synthetic' RSV from Orchid?
No, it's already been made clear that Orchid is not selling synthetic RSV to individuals. I was interested in addressing your accusation that Paul is profiteering. If Orchid's price is more than, say, $2.00/gm, then he isn't. You're acting like Paul is a competitor of yours, which is ridiculous. Paul is interested in science, and I don't believe that he is getting rich off of any of this. BTW, why do you put 'synthetic' in quotes? Do you really think that he is scamming people? What's next, are you going to claim he's cutting it with strychnine? Your wild accusations are just adding to the long list of red flags on RevGenetics.
Profit is not a bad word. It is not that that I have a problem with. I do not think he is scamming people, but I don't know him. If he is registered to do business, great. Actually I don't care if he made a profit, although I believe he did. And guess what... that is ok!! Where would we be without capitalism and private enterprise?
I think he might be the person that may have misrepresented himself to Orchid. At this time, he is the only one that fits the story I got from Satish at Orchid. Maybe it wasn't Paul, but neither you or I know that.
What I do know is that Paul is not getting the 'synthetic' rsv anymore.
So if he is not, then wouldn't you want to buy it from someone who has made a business of it, follows good manufacturing guidelines, is associated with a respectable organization regarding supplements, and basically registered to do business?
Let him build his venture, and ask him to follow the same guidelines you have all asked RevGenetics about. So far RevGenetics has been pretty transparent with the board regarding our business, and believe your criticisms to be very helpful for our company. We listen, we discuss it internally, and we take steps to win over discerning customers.
I personally believe that this board has been a great forum for ideas, and considerations regarding product development. The problem I see is that we cannot move quick enough sometimes. You all know we sell RevGenetics R500 capsules, which really are a great product. We sell them at a great price so that most people have an opportunity to try them out. Most people will not want pure powder, so no I do not believe Paul is a competitor. We simply sell Capsules R500 capsules which are 1000mg japanese knotweed, 500mg of which is resveratrol.
The price point for a purer form is to high to appeal to most consumers as most, like myself, can take the 50% version without issues.
Niner, I didn't want to upset you, I was simply trying to point out what my concerns were.
Thanks
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics
#218
Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:46 PM
...Personally I take 4 pills a day (that is 2 whole grams), and emodin is not an issue, but I have mentioned this before.
thanks
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics
Thanks for the input, Anthony.
Did you start at that dose (4 pills/2 g resveratrol QD), or ramp up? If so, how fast? Any effects, side or
other, noted?
Personally, I started with 500mg, then after a week I added another 500mg, until I got to 2grams. Using powder alone at the time I had a minuscule scale for measurement, and various liquids to mix it with...
I did hate it when I accidentally inhaled before mixing... that really fine powder can make you cough pretty hard.
#219
Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:53 PM
I'm not sure why you believe this.The price point for a purer form is to high to appeal to most consumers as most, like myself, can take the 50% version without issues.
In fact, on a 50% extract product (400 mg of Country Life, 100mg of Longevinex), at 500mg/day, I was not able to tolerate the emodin effects. I gather MANY of us have had problems at this dosage.
Now, maybe your product simply has far less emodin, though I would wonder in any case if that might not vary dramatically from batch to batch.
But I assure you, emodin IS an absolutely major issue for many of us with 50% product, and a higher purity (or at least a much lower percentage of emodin) is key.
#220
Posted 23 February 2007 - 05:00 PM
Brian, I have a sinking feeling that your denunciation of hijackers with pet ideas refers to me.
I will leave the thread if it is the consensus of the group that I am off-topic. Any comments/reactions anyone, please post them. I thought I had something valuable to contribute. It was an idea that would particularly depend on input from high-dose resv. users, which use this thread. Do I technically fit the membership standards for the 500 club? No... I confess, I take only 300 mg a day.
Jack,
I am pretty darn sure it's me, and to everyone I deeply apologize.
I will bow out for a few days...
Folks if you have some questions, criticisms about RevGenetics, or me personally, feel free to email me. As a small business, I will listen and work hard to meet all your good expectations. I feel good about you all, as you have helped me understand some expectations that need to be filled. I mean it, your criticisms show me alot about what I need to work on for RevGenetics, and myself.
They are very appreciated.
Thanks again
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics
anthony @ revgenetics .com
BTW: tom, I can only tell you my experience... and it's true I don't have an issue with 50% rsv.
#221
Posted 23 February 2007 - 05:14 PM
As to ramp up, I had slowly brought myself up on VitaCost's product over the last couple of years to the point where I was doing roughly 10/mg/Kg (yes, I was swallowing them wholesale). As I weigh about 127 Kg (I'm obviously overweight) the dosage is currently approaching 50/mg/kg. I just switched dosage cold turkey. That said, the change really is noticeable. Laxitive effect is much diminished. Appetite is diminished substantially (I have lost 3 pounds over the last week alone) just because I am not hungry. Energy levels seem somewhat higher. The only real negative is that my body temperature seems to be dropping slightly (at least my fingers are cold), but nothing substantial.
Regards,
Opus
#222
Posted 23 February 2007 - 06:16 PM
Anthony, here are my 2 cents worth:
1) Follow through on everything you said (I believe you will do this).
2) Offer a 250mg version of your capsules
3) Offer uncapped powder (prefereably cheaper than BAC )
4) Continue marketing
Brian, I have a sinking feeling that your denunciation of hijackers with pet ideas refers to me.
I will leave the thread if it is the consensus of the group that I am off-topic. Any comments/reactions anyone, please post them. I thought I had something valuable to contribute. It was an idea that would particularly depend on input from high-dose resv. users, which use this thread. Do I technically fit the membership standards for the 500 club? No... I confess, I take only 300 mg a day.
Jack,
I am pretty darn sure it's me, and to everyone I deeply apologize.
I will bow out for a few days...
Folks if you have some questions, criticisms about RevGenetics, or me personally, feel free to email me. As a small business, I will listen and work hard to meet all your good expectations. I feel good about you all, as you have helped me understand some expectations that need to be filled. I mean it, your criticisms show me alot about what I need to work on for RevGenetics, and myself.
They are very appreciated.
Thanks again
Anthony Loera
RevGenetics
anthony @ revgenetics .com
BTW: tom, I can only tell you my experience... and it's true I don't have an issue with 50% rsv.
#223
Posted 23 February 2007 - 07:40 PM
Has anyone had the chance of comparing the emodin effects from BAC's offering to Country Life? I'm about to purchase more, and I'm on the fence between these two brands.
Addison,
I have been using the BAC product for about a month now at ~5mg/kg/d in one bolus dose on an empty stomach, midmorning, and have had no emodin problems.
Of course, I've been eating a good, high-fiber, mostly vegetarian diet for years now so maybe that explains my tolerance.
I just mix it up in some warm water and chug it down. Not the greatest but I've eaten worse.... [tung]
I should say that I ran some of the BAC on an LC-MS and did see the trans-Resv. peak and mass at the appropriate retention time. Also emodin. I still havent had the time to try and quantitate it at all, that's a whole another ball of wax....
#224
Posted 23 February 2007 - 07:49 PM
Beyond a Century is selling their 50% rsv product at $8.60 for 50 grams giving you 25gm rsv for $8.60. I will concede the point that some of those taking the heroic doses may have a problem using an extract that is not close to 100% pure. They may have a problem anyway. I will continue to be skeptical of those selling rsv for enormous markups. You can buy it at 33 cents a gram or $4 a gram more purified, take your choice. If purification was super difficult and costly, I could see it but that does not seem to be the case.
I also found the story by opus very odd. Why would anyone spend well over $10,000.00 on a product like that if they weren't going to sell it? But, if you have millions and like something, it may seem like a small investment in your health. Truth is often stranger than fiction. I will watch the heroes in their binging contest and see who emerges victorious.
#225
Posted 23 February 2007 - 07:50 PM
Long answer: I took Country Life first. The first day I took 400mg of the CL I had a noticecable laxative effect. I quickly adapted to this and had no problems taking 800mg. When that ran out I bought the BAC and noticed no ill effects.
Has anyone had the chance of comparing the emodin effects from BAC's offering to Country Life? I'm about to purchase more, and I'm on the fence between these two brands.
Addison,
I have been using the BAC product for about a month now at ~5mg/kg/d in one bolus dose on an empty stomach, midmorning, and have had no emodin problems.
Of course, I've been eating a good, high-fiber, mostly vegetarian diet for years now so maybe that explains my tolerance.
I just mix it up in some warm water and chug it down. Not the greatest but I've eaten worse.... [tung]
#226
Posted 23 February 2007 - 08:16 PM
Beyond a Century is selling their 50% rsv product at $8.60 for 50 grams giving you 25gm rsv for $8.60.
If I look at the label for this product ( http://www.easycart....images/8620.jpg ), it tells me that a 200 mg serving has only 10 mg of rsv, or 5% - not 50%. The bulk of it is grape seed and "citrus bioflavonoid".
This gives a price of $3.44/gram of rsv.
Their 50% powder has a price of $12.00 for 25 gm of 50%, or $0.96/gram.
#227
Posted 23 February 2007 - 09:44 PM
I probably won't take part in your study. Frankly, as I followed this thread and saw that a journalist was taking part, I was angry-I
felt you were just snooping around for a story, acting like one of the gang.
Being somewhat of a Buddhist, I decided to let this feeling simmer and explore it before saying anything. I think, for myself, the reason I
was initially angry was that I've enjoyed the sense of community I feel here with the other supplement-addicted folks like me [wis].
I've also enjoyed the semi-anonyminity of posting (yes, someone prolly could find out who I really am but at least, for now, I can pretend I'm posting
as a Malbec-swiggin' man.) Having a journalist around suddenly felt like this sense of trust was being violated.
You've certainly ignited the discussion and brought out some good points which I've now enjoyed. Do you intend to ultimately write a story about this
and for what audience?
Thanks,
-Malbec
#228
Posted 23 February 2007 - 09:46 PM
How did you calculate the dosage? If you used a mouse/rat study to calculate this dosage, did you apply an interspecies dosage scaling factor (i.e. you have to do more than scale directly by weight to come up with a human equivalent.)Malbecman:
FYI. I ordered 250 mg caps (suspended in olive oil) at 99% pure from a manufacturer in China. Bottled cost (including customs duties, shipping, etc.) was about $45 per bottle of 100 caps.
For those interested, and yes perhaps I am nuts, since the order arrived a couple of weeks ago I raised my daily dosage to 6250 mg/day. So far my energy level has increased cumulatively, my sleep is better (subjectively), my appetite is down and I am beginning to lose excess weight (3 lbs in the last week).
Regards,
Opus
Are you planning on having blood work done to make sure no basic blood values are being thrown out of range at this level of supplementation (e.g. liver enzymes, kidney panel, CBC). You can use Directlabs.com or LEF and have this done yourself if you want. DirectLabs uses LabCorp or LabOne upon request, and LEF uses LabCorp. If you used DirectLabs, either the Comprehensive Wellness Profile ($89), or the General Health Package ($59), would be helpful.
Maybe you already know all of this; I just thought I'd ask. If you are on 6.25 grams/day of resveratrol for an extended period, I would be interested in hearing back from you if you have blood work done.
I'd like to mention also that quite a lot of damage can be done to the liver and kidneys by taking substances in a toxic range before noticeable adverse physical symptoms will appear. Liver toxicity is typically easier to discover, because increases in one or more of the commonly tested liver enzymes will usually appear on blood testing. However, with the kidneys, sometimes significant damage can occur before anything really shows up on blood testing. The liver in humans has a remarkable ability to heal after toxic insults, but relatively speaking, the kidneys and brain of humans are ill-equipped to heal from damage caused from some toxic damage, and sometimes the harm can be permanent. With the kidneys, permanent damage is more likely to occur with substances that damage the kidneys slowly over time. Acute damage is typically more reversible than long-term, slow damage to the kidneys. It's my understanding that kidney damage was one of the first symptoms to appear as resveratrol dosing in rodents reached the toxic level. It's not as if people experimenting with resveratrol are going to be having MRI's and kidney biopsies done as a more sensitive way to check for damage. The interspecies dosage scaling factors are just a guideline, they don't always prove to be accurate. Some strains of rats and mice are able to process certain toxins better than humans due to natural selection and exposure to toxins in the environment. Even alcohol in certain rats is significantly better metabolized than in humans. Just a word of caution.
Edited by ryan1113, 23 February 2007 - 10:11 PM.
#229
Posted 23 February 2007 - 10:01 PM
Some journalists are ok, some are good people and some are dirtbags. I would not trust a stranger just because they said they wrote for somebody. Frankly, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to have a lot of new publicity over it. The price has been coming down and that will make it spike up again.
#230
Posted 23 February 2007 - 10:14 PM
wayside, I can't tell from the page you posted if that's the same item or not. The one I looked at did not mention any bioflavinoids. It may be that the product is less than meets the eye. Here is what came up when I clicked on 'more info for this product'
If I search BAC's site for "resveratrol", the first product shown is the 50 grams @ 5% for $8.60. If I click on the "more info" I get the picture I posted.
There's also a link for "Pure Resvertrol 50% Powder", which is 25 grams @ 50% for $12.00. If I click on the "more info" for this, I get the picture you posted.
Not sure why you see the price for this as $8.60 instead of $12.00, but it looks like a good price either way.
#231
Posted 23 February 2007 - 10:26 PM
#232
Posted 23 February 2007 - 10:44 PM
You have a fair point. Actually the cost was closer to $12k than $10k. I will skip the discussion on my wealth, but in point of fact I can afford it (I am a reasonably successful attorney by day). I was at one point considering marketing it to cover my cost of acquisition (there is nothing like turning a cost center into a profit center), but elected not to proceed down that road after belatedly reviewing FDA regulations (and even some prior postings on the board). I would have ordered the same amount in any event since it was the minimum order I could get away with.
As to heroics, etc., I am not sure it really applies. If there are any adverse results, I will pull back quickly. I just can't help but think that the 5mg level is way too low and have been at 11/mg/kg for a year before going over the top with the current dosage.
Regards,
Opus
#233
Posted 23 February 2007 - 10:56 PM
Great questions. I am planning to get blood work done probably within the next month to see the effects to date of the new dosage. Last blood work was about 6 months ago and there were no issues.
I am concerned about possible organ damage and it is a risk.
The scaling has been one of my weakest areas and frankly it was mostly guessing (not enough background in the area). Hence, you will see one of my first posts was a question on that front. My trying to leverage on more knowlegeable people in the area and ensure that I was at least not completely insane.
Thanks for the word of caution by the way. It is appreciated. I think all of us fear trying to do something to extend our lives and inadvertantly shortening it. If I mess this up my wife will probably kill me before organ damage could.
#234
Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:11 PM
Ryan1113:
The scaling has been one of my weakest areas and frankly it was mostly guessing (not enough background in the area). Hence, you will see one of my first posts was a question on that front. My trying to leverage on more knowledgeable people in the area and ensure that I was at least not completely insane.
Thanks for the word of caution by the way. It is appreciated. I think all of us fear trying to do something to extend our lives and inadvertently shortening it. If I mess this up my wife will probably kill me before organ damage could.
Since you are indirectly asking, I think 6g/day is completely insane given the current research.
The best thing you can do for your health is optimize your diet and exercise. I would make that priority number 1, not taking an unheard of amount of resveratrol.
I hope I'm not coming off condescending, I'm genuinely concerned for your health. I don't think would be fair for us to goad you on, just so we can see what happens.
#235
Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:21 PM
I agree, I think 6g/day is quite excessive. You would be far better to optimize your diet and exercise and try to get your BMI below 25. Of course, the attraction of Sinclair's study with obese mice was that you could have your cake and eat it, too.
#236
Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:30 PM
I probably won't take part in your study. Frankly, as I followed this thread and saw that a journalist was taking part, I was angry-I felt you were just snooping around for a story, acting like one of the gang.... I've enjoyed the sense of community I feel here with the other supplement-addicted folks like me. I've also enjoyed the semi-anonyminity of posting (yes, someone prolly could find out who I really am but at least, for now, I can pretend I'm posting as a Malbec-swiggin' man.) Having a journalist around suddenly felt like this sense of trust was being violated. You've certainly ignited the discussion and brought out some good points which I've now enjoyed. Do you intend to ultimately write a story about this and for what audience?
Journalists are everywhere. Think of them as normal forum members who share your same interests, but who then go to write about it. Much like bloggers. And how could you get pissed off at bloggers?
It's true, I could use information found in this forum in an article. If you post anonymously, I would leave you as anonymous; if you identify yourself clearly, I might use your name. I understand that could be uncomfortable. Revealing your name to a community of you've voluntarily entered, isn't the same as revealing it to the world.Some journalists are ok, some are good people and some are dirtbags. I would not trust a stranger just because they said they wrote for somebody. Frankly, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to have a lot of new publicity over it. The price has been coming down and that will make it spike up again.
Maybe if you guys want you could have a vote about it or something. Maybe it would be better for someone else to take up the project I have proposed if you are uncomfortable as far as what I would do with the info. (I wouldn't use info from that project in my site except in anonymous form, unless I have the permission of the relevant person.) I could bail out of here if you guys want your close-knit sense of community back -- no hard feelings, I totally understand.
As far as raising resv. prices -- I think our website is too small to have this effect. Prices haven't risen despite articles all over the NY Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, etc. ... I doubt they'll go up because of my articles. My articles, in response to malbecman's question, are written for the entire public. I write 'em on all subjects, from astronomy to zoology... but when I write about resv., my purpose would be the most obvious one, giving people useful info that might help them live longer. Our website is free, by the way, so it's not like I'd be selling the info. (But I do make money off the advertising on our site. And obviously, I'd like to personally benefit from what useful info could be learned from my project.)
Perhaps a 2 stage approach to Jack's proposal might be helpful. At this early stage, posting is often highly subjective, given the short time many people have been ingesting relatively larger doses of resveratrol, both extracts and synthetic.
Personally, although I've been taking lower doses for years (mostly via Longevinex), in past weeks and months my dose has increased comparatively massively, and includes a variety of resveratrol sources from extract and synthetic forms.
If interested people could start keeping a personal log including dates, amounts of resveratrol ingested, type (extract with percentage purity and source vs. synthetic), time of day/dosing schedule (QD, BID, TID, etc. +/- food, liquid, etoh-wine, etc.) objective measurements (bp/pulse, basal body temp., fasting glucose, other lab studies, weight, physical performance related such as running times, weight lifting personal maximums, etc.) as well as more subjective observations (mood, energy, appetite, libido, stamina/endurance, etc.), it would likely be much more easily tabulated in a thread with specific and standard format and more easily analyzed than attempting to collate scattered posts from this thread.
Both excellent ideas in my view. So then, my idea would be to continue for now in this thread, since others including the thread founder have assurred me I'm not off-topic. I would still ask people to post any subjective (but still honest & careful) observations in this thread, as I asked before. But when it comes to people actually posting entire logs, which they hopefully will, such reports would probably be best posted in a separate thread created for the purpose. I would be willing to start that when the need arises. I don't mind taking it upon myself to collate scattered posts. Basically some of the posts would be an integral part of the conversation here, others may belong better in the other thread, and we can deal with that as the need arises.also age and gender are critical dimensions. If resv is moderating damage or improving metabolism then it should be most apparent in those in whom the damage has already happened.
#237
Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:32 PM
Since you are indirectly asking, I think 6g/day is completely insane given the current research.
indeed.
#238
Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:35 PM
Don't worry about goading me on. The thoughts are probably worthwhile though to get me to move up the blood test dates.
Thanks for the thoughts.
#239
Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:52 PM
The thoughts are probably worthwhile though to get me to move up the blood test dates.
thats good, but as has already been mentioned kidney damage can occur without it really showing up on blood tests.
Also Sinclair himself mentioned that reservatrol's effect on SIRT1 deacetylation follows an inverted U type relationship. Taking too much could result in the effects on SIRT1 being reversed; ie downregulated (as pointed out by Michael Rae in his article on the subject at the MF forums).
#240
Posted 24 February 2007 - 12:18 AM
thats good, but as has already been mentioned kidney damage can occur without it really showing up on blood tests.
Also Sinclair himself mentioned that reservatrol's effect on SIRT1 deacetylation follows an inverted U type relationship. Taking too much could result in the effects on SIRT1 being reversed; ie downregulated (as pointed out by Michael Rae in his article on the subject at the MF forums).
At what dosage did Sinclair say the negative effects kick in and the curve slopes down again? Also, do you have a reference to where Sinclair said this? Thanks.
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