1708 replies to this topic

[drtom]

Another thread was started discussing a particular person who had joint problems with high resveratrol use and what they did to relieve those issues and to allow the person to resume resveratrol. I know there are several threads about the joint issues, but thought this one was worth linking to in here, as it discusses possible options to relieve the joint pain.

I posted about my own experiences there and asked for more information.

The gist of the original post in that thread deals with synovial fluid and the poster offers the idea that resveratrol may reduce synovial fluid and may, in some people, require other substances to counter this effect.

Thanks,
David

Thanks for the tips, David.
I had been taking 250mg of 50% resveratrol for 2 years with no side effects.
In May I increased to 500mg/day (basically because I ran out of 250mg caps but had 1 bottle of 500's left).
Within a few days I was experiencing severe arthritis-like stiffness and pain in both hands (worst on awakening).
Strangely, one joint on the outside of my right foot (behind smallest toe) became very sore; I couldn't even walk without slippers or thick, soft socks.
I used to have arthritis in the hands until 7 years ago.
I stopped the res and symptoms have all but vanished. Left hand is still a little touchy.
I have ordered more of the 250mg res and will go back to original dose but this was a big shock for me.

If symptoms resume I will try some 98% or 99% pure stuff.

[davidd]

I used to have arthritis in the hands until 7 years ago.

Thanks for that information drtom.

What made the arthritis go away 7 years ago??

Your symptoms were similar to mine. I started taking some glucosamine chondroitin and my hands seemed a little better. I don't know if it was related or not, but I started having trouble (pain) swallowing. I then started taking my multi-vitamin again (I had stopped after stopping resveratrol) and that helped my throat.

I'm not really able to offer any scientific analysis of all this. Just that somewhere in the mix of resveratrol, emodin, whatever else is in 50% pure resveratrol, vitamin D, glucosamine chondroitin and multi-vitamin appear to be some causes and effects.

My left hand feels entirely normal. My right hand is much better than it was, but still has some stiffness and very minor pain.

I am *convinced* of some of the benefits of resveratrol. The benefits I personally had were:

1) Improved and very consistent VO2 Max. This consistency and improvement dropped off the cliff, however, near the end of last winter. My guess is that vitamin D deficiency somehow reduces the mitchondrial potential of resveratrol. I'm back to the drawing board on my testing. Now that I've been without resveratrol for a while, I should be able to get a good baseline VO2 Max without vitamin D deficiency and then start back on the resveratrol again and measure my improvement.

2) Improved immune system. Can't really explain why. Maybe with the mitochondria not spewing out as many free radicals, the body is able to put more into the immune system defenses? Or maybe the extra energy from the big/numerous/special mitochondria is put toward the immune system? Or maybe it is something totally unrelated to resveratrol's mitochondrial biogensis capabilities.

In fact, it was it was within a week or two after stopping the resveratrol that I believe my body took a hit to the immune system and took a couple days to rebound. In other words, it was like resveratrol was somehow providing a boost and after stopping, it took several days for my body to realize it had to step up to the plate to take the place of whatever resveratrol was doing for it.

3) More overall energy. The combination of resveratrol and quercetin was much better, but even just resveratrol (after I stopped the quercetin for personal testing) provided me with more general energy than without anything. Harder for me to stay up later and get up earlier now and I get more tired after meals.


All this is to say that I think it is worth it to figure out what it takes to defeat any of the negatives in order to get resveratrol's positives.

I'll be very curious if you experience issues again and if the higher purity product prevents this. I don't suppose there is a chance you'll try 500 mg of the 50% purity product again to see if the symptoms return?

David

[unglued]

I haven't posted anything in 2008 at all, so here's an update. Compare these to my earlier stats.

• My VO2 Max, as measured on the same three StarTrac machines in my health club, have gone from what I called "absurdly high" pre-resveratrol to what Velopismo called "astonishingly high" to a present level of "this can't be right". I measure it several times a week and it rarely comes out below 70, often is in the 90's, and occasionally is over 120. This is a walking test at 3.4 mph, 0 to 12 degree inclines increasing one degree per minute. No question that the median value has increased a lot in the last two years. (I haven't kept everything else constant, of course. For example, I've been taking 230mg of CoQ10 and may have taken less before, and I'm also taking more B12.)
• ...
• I've had my cholesterol measured several more times, and I don't see any trend.

I've been continuing to measure VO2 Max several times a week these last six months (on the same StarTrac treadmills as I've been using for years), and the results remain just as wildly high. They continue to vary a good bit and I'm sure they're nowhere near accurate absolutely, but they don't even overlap my (already high) pre-resveratrol results on the same machines: I now consider a number in the high 70's to be disappointing, and only feel really pleased when I break 100. Today I set a new record: my heart rate average for the 12 minutes (0-12 degrees, 3.4 mph / 5.47 kph) was 104 bpm and did not go above 118. Usually it hits 130 at the end. And it claimed my VO2 Max was 166. Five minutes later I tried a different identical treadmill (and I washed my hands, so there's nothing these tests have in common except for my heart rate) and got an equally low average heart rate: 103 bpm. It computed a VO2 Max of 307.

I think their formula must be oversensitive to small differences at the high end of the scale. The instructions say it stops if the heart rate goes above 140 (or was it 150) for more than a minute, which I used to think was designed as an emergency safety cutoff, but having seen other tests, I now believe it's supposed to be the thing that ends the test for most people, and the 12-minute cutoff is just because it can't tilt more than 12 degrees. But this test is the most objective "before and after" measure I have that might be related to resveratrol. After all, the long-lived mice performed better in treadmill tests. (Or maybe I'm just getting used to this test.)

My cholesterol level has remained low, but taking a closer look, I do see a clear trend for the worse: the Total/HDL ratio rose in straight line for four tests in a row (4 months apart): 3.3, 3.5, 3.8, 4.0 -- then suddenly back down to 3.3. (18 months ago, 160/49 = 3.3; this month, 141/43 = 3.3).

I've been taking 250mg micro/nitro capsule in the morning with quercetin, 500 regular powder mixed with a little rum at night, with a occasional squirts of sublingual liquid B vitamins into which I mixed a tiny bit of micronized resveratrol powder. However, I've been halting resveratrol and quercetin for 2 to 9 days at a time and switching to astragaloside 4. I have not noticed any pattern in my VO2 Max results (not that I recorded or graphed them), nor would I expect any short-term effects, when I go off resveratrol. Maybe a slight improvement a few days after going off it, if anything. My last cholesterol test happened to occur after 9 days of astragaloside 4 in place of resveratrol and quercetin. Today's ridiculously high VO2 Max measurements occurred four days later, the first measurement after 4 days back on resveratrol and the first to break 100 in awhile. But again, it seems to be a long-term, effect, as you'd expect if it's due to new mitochondria.

[unglued]

I seem to have overlooked or forgotten this New Year's Eve post by David D., and stumbled across it only when linking my update above back to my previous results:

I'm sure you've already come across some of this before, but a high VO2 max is a good thing if you want to avoid mortality as much as possible.

http://www.lifeahead...er-cvd-risk.htm (good grid showing risk for various levels of VO2 max)
http://medgadget.com...max_a_good.html (higher VO2 max decreases risk of death for those with coronary artery disease)

http://www.accessibi...-daily-exercise (my favorite -- discusses METs rather than VO2 max, but same concept. They measure overall mortality, not just heart related.)

...
Of course, the million dollar question is whether resveratrol induced VO2 max is as healthy for you as exercise induced.
...

That makes me feel good, since I seem to have started out with a very good VO2 max even before resveratrol.

That first study mentions artery width as the purported mechanism for reduced cardio-related death -- it takes much longer for a slightly wider artery to clog up. My own speculation has been that resveratrol increases VO2 Max by a different mechanism: not making the heart pump blood more efficiently (or the blood carry more oxygen), but making the muscles use oxygen more efficiently. That would also be good news, of course, since oxidation is one of the mechanisms of aging. In fact, if I had a choice, I'd probably rather delay my death from Cause A by 10 years and my death from Cause B by 10 years than delay my death from Cause A by 20 years, unless I was confident that Cause B was already planning to wait even longer than that.

[davidd]

Good catch unglued. I didn't read the article close enough, originally, to see their conclusion. I was just looking for various charts/graphs of VO2 Max vs risk.

If it is truly the increased arterial diameter that provides the bulk of the benefits, then the answer to my million dollar question would seem to be that resveratrol induced VO2 Max may not provide the same benefits that exercise induced VO2 Max does. This is assuming, as you stated, that VO2 max gains from resveratrol are by efficient use of oxygen by the mitochondria.

Although I have never seen this idea proposed anywhere, I suppose it is still theoretically possible that resveratrol improved mitchondria in the heart muscle could provide some efficiencies/endurance to the heart in *pushing* the blood to the muscles too. That's just wild speculation and a bit of wishful thinking, because I was really hoping resveratrol induced VO2 max would provide many of the same benefits as exercise induced VO2 max.

I guess that means I better start getting in shape *and* take resveratrol to maximize all angles of health benefits.

I was in very good shape in my teenage years, playing a number of sports, including long distance running. I wonder how long arterial expansion remains before contracting again??

David

[davidd]

Okay, I just got back from lunch. As I was sitting there, eating a hamburger covered with cheddar cheese, bacon and topped with an egg, stuffing french fry after greasy french fry into my mouth and downing it all with a chocolate malt, something dawned on me. That last article I linked to showed a decrease in *all* cause mortality, not just heart related.

...
The study found that "highly fit" men had half the risk of death compared to "low fit" men. Men who achieved "very highly fit" levels had a 70 percent lower risk of death compared to those in the "low fit" category. For every 1-MET increase in exercise capacity (fitness), the risk for death from all causes was 13 percent for both African Americans and Caucasians.
...

There's still hope for resveratrol popping couch potatoes everywhere!

David

[unglued]

I've been continuing to measure VO2 Max several times a week these last six months (on the same StarTrac treadmills as I've been using for years), and the results remain just as wildly high. They continue to vary a good bit and I'm sure they're nowhere near accurate absolutely, but they don't even overlap my (already high) pre-resveratrol results on the same machines: I now consider a number in the high 70's to be disappointing, and only feel really pleased when I break 100. Today I set a new record: my heart rate average for the 12 minutes (0-12 degrees, 3.4 mph / 5.47 kph) was 104 bpm and did not go above 118.

My next treadmill test, 48 hours later, is a good example of the variation. Average heart rate was back up at 111, max HR was about 128, and VO2 max was down to 72, which is about as low as it gets these days. (I saw 98 within the past week.)

Despite this variation, it's obvious my VO2 max has increased from pre-resveratrol measurements on this very same treadmill and two others just like it. Compare to my previous reports:

• Pre-resveratrol, reported May 2007 (retrospectively):
  

  My VO2 max, as measured by an automated treadmill at the gym, has always been absurdly high, like in the 50's (averages 90th percentile -- if I were a teenager) since I started measuring it in 2004

• After 5-6 months of low-dose resveratrol, ibid:

  I think it's been a little higher recently, ranging from 56 to 71.

• After a few months at 5 mg/kg, posted September 2007:

  My VO2 max measurements these past few weeks have averaged around 70. The lowest I've seen recently is 56 and I think one broke 80.

So a definite objective improvement, and resveratrol is the only obvious cause.

[unglued]

So a definite objective improvement, and resveratrol is the only obvious cause.

Although I just read on WebMD that curcumin may unclog arteries, and I started taking turmeric supplements in October 2007 and later worked the spice into my diet on a daily basis. I've been a very bad guinea pig.

[DrEvil]

Regarding curcumin and resevertrol : I would just like to repeat a post I read earlier.
curcumin and resveratrol can supress the immune system:
Study on Curcumin and resvertrol

I experienced this , I have been taking 400 mg of both dissolved under my tongue for the last 2 weeks and what started as a mild sore throat got worse and never dissapeared . I started having an idea that the resvertrol might have something to do with it. I thought maybe that the resveratrol is making the bad bacteria in my thorat live longer lol.. Anyhow the above explains it since a lot of it must have gone into my mucuous cells in my throat.

I think in future when a cold is going around or a oink oink flu is in your area switch from resvetrol to garlic for a few days. It also has anti aging effects and is antibiotic and antiviral.

Anyhow all in all I think it is also good news, since it means the resveratrol is working..at least in my throat. That is actually a problem with supplements that you buy in a shop e.g the companies put in 20mg of resveratrol into a capsule, because at that dose it does not work.. neither positive nor negative and they are 'save'.

Edited by DrEvil, 01 August 2009 - 03:19 PM.

[drtom]

I used to have arthritis in the hands until 7 years ago.

Thanks for that information drtom.

What made the arthritis go away 7 years ago??

Hi David,

Sorry about my tardy reply; been a while since I checked this website.
I have just started back on the 250mg/day of 50% RES. Still some residual morning pain in my left hand, but right hand and foot are OK.
To answer your question above is a long story, but I'll try to cut it short.
I developed painful arthritis in both hands when aged about 40 (1997) in Australia. I tried fish-oil supplements; no effect. I tried Lyprinol (NZ Green-lipped mussel extract) and it gave mild, transitory relief. (When I took lyprinol I felt a curious feeling like warm water running down my arms!)
In 2002 I moved to Russia to live with my new wife. Hands very bad by now.
In late 2002 felt a craving for fish and chips. Went to local market and bought a chunk of a large fish. (This fish is vegetarian.) It is a very fatty fish. I filleted it, fried it, and ate 4 large pieces with chips.
About an hour after the meal I felt a strong sensation of warm water running down my arms.
The next morning I awoke 100% pain-free in the hands; NO arthritis. I have remained that way until just recently.
My guess is that the Russian fish contained a high concentration of the same active ingredient as Lyprinol, and I took a massive dose.

I'll be very curious if you experience issues again and if the higher purity product prevents this. I don't suppose there is a chance you'll try 500 mg of the 50% purity product again to see if the symptoms return?

No, sorry. Not going to do that!

Cheers,
DrTom

David

[TamPogo-Fundraiser]

Greetings,

I am new here and have enjoyed the many posts loaded with information, but on the subject of absorption, I could not find anyone who has used DMSO to use with resveratrol as a carrier since it gets into the blood stream so quickly. I use it with another product, so wondered if anyone has used DMSO.

Thanks,

[Dagon]

Just after joining - cool forum!!

I started on Resveratrol one week ago. After reading a lot about it's effects online, I bought the following 50% mix from Ebay after seeing all the good reviews (on amazon!):
http://cgi.ebay.com/...e=STRK:MEWNX:IT
http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

I've noticed some effects:
- Positive mood
- Sleeping really well at night
- Increased energy during the day, but increased need for good sleep
- Increased mental clarity and sharpness when playing sport
- Skin on the face looks really healthy
- Warts on my hand have started to disappear

The above are just personal observations and may not be due to Resveratrol, it may just be the fact that I've been getting better sleep or may even be my imagination I should also note that I've recently moved to a 80% raw food diet and that may also be helping me.

[Dagon]

I should also add that weight seems to be more easily lost, and I have to work harder to make sure I get all my calories, especially being a vegetarian.

[jCole]

I should also add that weight seems to be more easily lost, and I have to work harder to make sure I get all my calories, especially being a vegetarian.

I upped my dosage to 2grams per day and I now notice my feet are starting to hurt and I in general, I feel a bit achy all over. Never had this issue before, but I've read this can occur at higher doses, so I am not entirely shocked. (all tho it is tolerable... does not bother me doing my day to day activities and working out)

Edited by jCole, 20 August 2009 - 04:19 PM.

[Dagon]

I should also add that weight seems to be more easily lost, and I have to work harder to make sure I get all my calories, especially being a vegetarian.

I upped my dosage to 2grams per day and I now notice my feet are starting to hurt and I in general, I feel a bit achy all over. Never had this issue before, but I've read this can occur at higher doses, so I am not entirely shocked. (all tho it is tolerable... does not bother me doing my day to day activities and working out)

Not sure why people feel the need to take such high doses. 100mg of 50% trans seems to do the job nicely for me, without any negative side-effects.

[niner]

I am new here and have enjoyed the many posts loaded with information, but on the subject of absorption, I could not find anyone who has used DMSO to use with resveratrol as a carrier since it gets into the blood stream so quickly. I use it with another product, so wondered if anyone has used DMSO.

It doesn't work. At least you will never get enough resveratrol that way to have a systemic effect, unless maybe you dip yourself in a vat. There have been experiments measuring the transdermal flux of resveratrol which show that it is extremely low. It might be enough for a local effect, for example treating an arthritic joint. Resveratrol creams probably do get in enough to affect the skin, and such skin creams do exist. Transdermal use is kind of like Baptism; something about it really makes people believe. There is no shortage of believers, but I think that systemic effects are purely placebo.

[niner]

I upped my dosage to 2grams per day and I now notice my feet are starting to hurt and I in general, I feel a bit achy all over. Never had this issue before, but I've read this can occur at higher doses, so I am not entirely shocked. (all tho it is tolerable... does not bother me doing my day to day activities and working out)

jCole, this sounds like the joint/tendon pain side effect. I'd recommend backing off the resveratrol to see if it's causal. From everything I've heard, this problem is almost always reversible, but not always! Don't try to put up with. Get it sorted out. I would particularly worry that if you live with it long enough, it may become a permanent problem, or may get substantially worse. 2 grams is a big dose for a healthy person.

[maxwatt]

I should also add that weight seems to be more easily lost, and I have to work harder to make sure I get all my calories, especially being a vegetarian.

I upped my dosage to 2grams per day and I now notice my feet are starting to hurt and I in general, I feel a bit achy all over. Never had this issue before, but I've read this can occur at higher doses, so I am not entirely shocked. (all tho it is tolerable... does not bother me doing my day to day activities and working out)

Not sure why people feel the need to take such high doses. 100mg of 50% trans seems to do the job nicely for me, without any negative side-effects.

Different strokes for different folks? Some of the effects (mitochondrial biogenesis, e.g.) directly correlate with dosage. Some people need more to get the same blood serum levels, due to genotype differences in enzyme levels. Some of us note better effects vis-a-vis arthritis, for example, with large doses.

Lastly, 50% extracts contain more emodin (a laxative and intestinal irritant) than many of us find desirable.

[Dagon]

I should also add that weight seems to be more easily lost, and I have to work harder to make sure I get all my calories, especially being a vegetarian.

I upped my dosage to 2grams per day and I now notice my feet are starting to hurt and I in general, I feel a bit achy all over. Never had this issue before, but I've read this can occur at higher doses, so I am not entirely shocked. (all tho it is tolerable... does not bother me doing my day to day activities and working out)

Not sure why people feel the need to take such high doses. 100mg of 50% trans seems to do the job nicely for me, without any negative side-effects.

Different strokes for different folks? Some of the effects (mitochondrial biogenesis, e.g.) directly correlate with dosage. Some people need more to get the same blood serum levels, due to genotype differences in enzyme levels. Some of us note better effects vis-a-vis arthritis, for example, with large doses.

Lastly, 50% extracts contain more emodin (a laxative and intestinal irritant) than many of us find desirable.

Ok, that's fair enough. I was thinking of moving to RevGenetics 300mg after 3 months on the 100mg. I'm currently getting 100mg per day, and no bad effects, so no harm in trying 300mg and see how it goes.

Is RevGenetics largely recognised as being the best on the market? Seems to be a good price and also it's tested.

[maxwatt]

I should also add that weight seems to be more easily lost, and I have to work harder to make sure I get all my calories, especially being a vegetarian.

I upped my dosage to 2grams per day and I now notice my feet are starting to hurt and I in general, I feel a bit achy all over. Never had this issue before, but I've read this can occur at higher doses, so I am not entirely shocked. (all tho it is tolerable... does not bother me doing my day to day activities and working out)

Not sure why people feel the need to take such high doses. 100mg of 50% trans seems to do the job nicely for me, without any negative side-effects.

Different strokes for different folks? Some of the effects (mitochondrial biogenesis, e.g.) directly correlate with dosage. Some people need more to get the same blood serum levels, due to genotype differences in enzyme levels. Some of us note better effects vis-a-vis arthritis, for example, with large doses.

Lastly, 50% extracts contain more emodin (a laxative and intestinal irritant) than many of us find desirable.

Ok, that's fair enough. I was thinking of moving to RevGenetics 300mg after 3 months on the 100mg. I'm currently getting 100mg per day, and no bad effects, so no harm in trying 300mg and see how it goes.

Is RevGenetics largely recognised as being the best on the market? Seems to be a good price and also it's tested.

We prefer to keep product discussion in this forum: retailer/product discussion
Revgen. do test their materials, and seem to be well-thought of by many here. They are not the only ones in the marketplace.

[jCole]

I upped my dosage to 2grams per day and I now notice my feet are starting to hurt and I in general, I feel a bit achy all over. Never had this issue before, but I've read this can occur at higher doses, so I am not entirely shocked. (all tho it is tolerable... does not bother me doing my day to day activities and working out)

jCole, this sounds like the joint/tendon pain side effect. I'd recommend backing off the resveratrol to see if it's causal. From everything I've heard, this problem is almost always reversible, but not always! Don't try to put up with. Get it sorted out. I would particularly worry that if you live with it long enough, it may become a permanent problem, or may get substantially worse. 2 grams is a big dose for a healthy person.

I backed down to 1g, the day the side effects started and the joint pain/discomfort disappeared almost in full, by the next day.

I'm back up to about 2g's again, but this time, I'm adding 1g of Quercetin (first time experimenting with Quercetin, mainly to see if it'll help control my asthma a bit) to my RSV/Protein Shake cocktail and so far, I've noticed no joint pain this time around. (it's been 5 days now on 2g RSV/99% & 1g Quercetin)

Are the effects of Quercetin possibly helping? I know it has anti-inflammatory properties...


Probably not going to stay at 2g's of RSV, just trying it out for testing purposes.

Edited by jCole, 26 August 2009 - 04:46 PM.

[unglued]

jCole -- I've found that glucosamine chondroitin helps with the slight soreness I get in my knee (something I've had off and on for decades and that may or may not be made worse by resveratrol; I've never taken more than 1.4g/day of resveratrol).

All -- Here's an update on the one objective improvement I've been reporting. You can see past results by following the chain of links back in time; here's the last update, six weeks ago:

I've been continuing to measure VO2 Max several times a week these last six months (on the same StarTrac treadmills as I've been using for years), and the results remain just as wildly high.

It's stayed high -- higher than the pre-resveratrol results you'll find if you follow the links back to 2007, and I now believe it's consistently remained somewhat higher than last year. Today it was 120.5, and has ranged from low 80's to mid 160's over the past week. Since the beginning of the year I've been taking 250mg of the Tween-80 micronized 98% capsules (first thing in the morning, lately) and 500 mg 98% powder semi-dissolved in liqueur in the evening, and occasional buccal administration (micronized mixed with liquid B formula, probably no more than 1 mg) . I've gone through several cycles where I halt resveratrol for up to ten days and take astragaloside IV instead.
Today's 120.5 was after four days of no resveratrol. I'll repeat what I said before:

I've been taking 250mg micro/nitro capsule in the morning with quercetin, 500 regular powder mixed with a little rum at night, with a occasional squirts of sublingual liquid B vitamins into which I mixed a tiny bit of micronized resveratrol powder. However, I've been halting resveratrol and quercetin for 2 to 9 days at a time and switching to astragaloside 4. I have not noticed any pattern in my VO2 Max results (not that I recorded or graphed them), nor would I expect any short-term effects, when I go off resveratrol. Maybe a slight improvement a few days after going off it, if anything. ... Today's ridiculously high VO2 Max measurements [166 and higher] occurred four days later, the first measurement after 4 days back on resveratrol and the first to break 100 in awhile. But again, it seems to be a long-term, effect, as you'd expect if it's due to new mitochondria.

[maxwatt]

jCole -- I've found that glucosamine chondroitin helps with the slight soreness I get in my knee (something I've had off and on for decades and that may or may not be made worse by resveratrol; I've never taken more than 1.4g/day of resveratrol).

All -- Here's an update on the one objective improvement I've been reporting. You can see past results by following the chain of links back in time; here's the last update, six weeks ago:

I've been continuing to measure VO2 Max several times a week these last six months (on the same StarTrac treadmills as I've been using for years), and the results remain just as wildly high.

It's stayed high -- higher than the pre-resveratrol results you'll find if you follow the links back to 2007, and I now believe it's consistently remained somewhat higher than last year. Today it was 120.5, and has ranged from low 80's to mid 160's over the past week. Since the beginning of the year I've been taking 250mg of the Tween-80 micronized 98% capsules (first thing in the morning, lately) and 500 mg 98% powder semi-dissolved in liqueur in the evening, and occasional buccal administration (micronized mixed with liquid B formula, probably no more than 1 mg) . I've gone through several cycles where I halt resveratrol for up to ten days and take astragaloside IV instead.
Today's 120.5 was after four days of no resveratrol. I'll repeat what I said before:

I've been taking 250mg micro/nitro capsule in the morning with quercetin, 500 regular powder mixed with a little rum at night, with a occasional squirts of sublingual liquid B vitamins into which I mixed a tiny bit of micronized resveratrol powder. However, I've been halting resveratrol and quercetin for 2 to 9 days at a time and switching to astragaloside 4. I have not noticed any pattern in my VO2 Max results (not that I recorded or graphed them), nor would I expect any short-term effects, when I go off resveratrol. Maybe a slight improvement a few days after going off it, if anything. ... Today's ridiculously high VO2 Max measurements [166 and higher] occurred four days later, the first measurement after 4 days back on resveratrol and the first to break 100 in awhile. But again, it seems to be a long-term, effect, as you'd expect if it's due to new mitochondria.

The highest VO2 max measured in a lab was in the low nineties, certainly not more than 100. Lance Armstrong I believe once measured 93. Typically a trained amateur bicyclist - a club racer -- will be between 55 and 60, which is the most the majority of us can hope to attain. What units does your machine use?

I think your treadmill measurement is not an absolute measure, though it can likely show relative improvement if it is consistent. I consider it a near certainty from reports in this forum that resveratrol improves VO2 max, most probably from an increase in mitochondrial density and quality. Mitochondrial dysfunction is a major symptom of aging, if not a cause. By inference, resveratrol would improve quality-of-life with aging, even if it proves not to extend life-span in humans.

[malbecman]

I agree with Maxwatt, I absolutely would not trust the absolute value that the StarTrac is giving you (or compare it to true VO2 measurements in a physiology lab) but rather use it track the relative changes. The treadmills measurements could be drifting over time as well which would confound things. Do they ever get calibrated????

Ok, I've looked up the StarTrac brochure online and they use your heart rate during a standardized exercise protocol as the basis of the measurement and take the VO2 calculation from there. Sorry, unglued, but heart rate is too variable and too dependent on external factors (your stress level, hydration level, etc) to be considered a reliable gold-standard physiological measurement. You can use it, just be aware that it has some real-loosey-gooseyness factored into it.

I've been continuing to measure VO2 Max several times a week these last six months (on the same StarTrac treadmills as I've been using for years), and the results remain just as wildly high.

It's stayed high -- higher than the pre-resveratrol results you'll find if you follow the links back to 2007, and I now believe it's consistently remained somewhat higher than last year. Today it was 120.5, and has ranged from low 80's to mid 160's over the past week. Since the beginning of the year I've been taking 250mg of the Tween-80 micronized 98% capsules (first thing in the morning, lately) and 500 mg 98% powder semi-dissolved in liqueur in the evening, and occasional buccal administration (micronized mixed with liquid B formula, probably no more than 1 mg) . I've gone through several cycles where I halt resveratrol for up to ten days and take astragaloside IV instead.
Today's 120.5 was after four days of no resveratrol. I'll repeat what I said before:

[unglued]

malbecman, I believe that VO2 Max by definition is calculated by comparing heart rates. I'd be interested in reading that manual, though; I never found one for that machine. (As for hydration and stress, I'm always well hydrated when I take the test and I try to relax while I'm taking it. I think I've noticed a correlation between being short on sleep and getting somewhat lower numbers.)

maxwatt and malbecman --

I don't believe the numbers can possibly be accurate on an absolute basis, either, given how variable the results are. I've said so before, many times, but I don't want to take up space with a disclaimer every time I post an update. I wonder if the increase over the years might be significant -- despite the range. It's the only objective measure I have. (Except for cholesterol, which I've also reported and which is probably not being helped. Remember I posted a paper a couple of years ago on how it helped protect rabbits' hearts without improving cholersterol.)

Follow my chain of links back to the beginning of this year to review my attempts to compare the StarTrac results to other machines. Only on an absolute basis, unfortunately; I didn't have those available pre-resveratrol.

Since you bring it up, here are my latest thoughts on absolute accuracy: My hunch is that my VO2 Max really is fairly good, and the StarTrac machine's protocol is less accurate at calculating values at the high end of the scale. Also, for years I assumed the test was designed to last the full 12 minutes for everyone, but then I noticed that if I press Stop after 7 minutes, it still calculates a value. And the instructions say it terminates if the HR exceeds 150 bpm for a minute. I always assumed that was an emergency safety feature to avoid liability. After I discovered the more strenuous Gerkin protocol which seems to be designed to be terminated by reaching a certain HR and not by exceeding the maximum time limit, I wonder if the StarTrac protocol isn't designed with the assumption that 12 degrees at 3.4 mph (5.5 kph) is enough to get most people's heart rate to 150. It's a submaximal test that tries to estimate a maximal pumping rate, and maybe its estimates are especially bad for people like me who never get much above 75% of their maximum. (I reach maybe 130 bpm at the most, which is 76% of my age-predicted maximum and but is not enough to make me breath through my mouth.) Another factor is that all VO2 Max tests assume that walking at a given speed and incline takes the same effort for all people of a given weight and maybe age -- that they all have the same mechanical efficiency in their joints and muscles. (It's like riding a bicycle -- if two riders have the same heart rate doing the same ride, the one riding the rusty old bike with half-deflated tires and one gear did more work with the same heart rate.) Decades worth of walking at 3.7 mph may have adapted me for walking at 3.4 mph so that it takes less energy than their formula assumes.

What's your theory on relative accuracy? That all three machines have aged over the years and have trouble moving the treadmill as fast as advertised? That they can no longer get it up to a full 12 degrees? That their heart rate monitors have started consistently missing beats and reading low? Although my numbers vary a lot, I repeat the test often (good chance to take a break from my workout, relax and burn off 100 calories), and my 2009 numbers don't even overlap my 2004 numbers.

On a theoretical note, my latest web search turned up an interesting phrase that supports my earlier speculation. According to 61 web pages, besides cardiovascular pumping efficiency, the other factor that VO2 Max depends upon is "the chemical ability of the muscular cellular tissue system to use oxygen in breaking down fuels". Does anyone know what part of the cellular tissue system is mainly involved in using oxygen to break down fuels and produce energy?

Edited by unglued, 06 September 2009 - 08:08 AM.

[malbecman]

Real VO2 max measurements are made in a laboratory with the person hooked up to instruments that can analyze their oxygen consumption and carbon dioxide production during a period of exercise. The exercise workloads are selected to gradually progress in increments from moderate to maximal intensity. As I said before, heart rate is not enough of a "hard number" to be considered truly quantitative.

High VO2 max is considered desirable in athletes but does not predict success. Much more important is HOW LONG someone can exercise at or near their VO2 max. Or another good measurement is how many watts of power you can output.

[unglued]

Yes, if anyone has a chance to go to a real physiology lab and get the definitive test done before starting to take resveratrol and then repeat it after several months, I'd be very interested in hearing the results, and I'm sure others reading this topic would too. I myself will not be able to provide data on that, since I didn't go to a physiology lab before starting resveratrol. I can only report what data I have. It seemed as relevant as anything, because the coverage in November 2006 mentioned that the treated rodents lived longer also performed better on treadmills. (I also could make some more anecdotal, qualitative reports about ability to walk quickly up and down eight flights of stairs in five minutes and still have plenty of breath left, I don't have any pre-resveratrol data that is directly comparable.)

As for what's important for athletes, this is after all a topic in the resveratrol forum. While some people who read this might be looking at resveratrol as a performance drug, from the posts, I gather than most of us are interested in longevity and/or health improvements. I think we're looking for a readily available test that measures something that is a marker for the biological changes that are believed to be responsible for resveratrol's purported benefits in health or longevity. Cholesterol and VO2 Max seemed like obvious candidates, and I haven't seen any better practical suggestions. I no longer believe cholesterol is a good surrogate, but have been posting it anyway. VO2 Max seems even more relevant in light of the question I posed above, which I think I know the answer to.

[sethian1]

[quote name='unglued' date='Sep 9 2009, 12:30 AM' post='345923']
"I think we're looking for a readily available test that measures something that is a marker for the biological changes that are believed to be responsible for resveratrol's purported benefits in health or longevity. Cholesterol and VO2 Max seemed like obvious candidates, and I haven't seen any better practical suggestions."

I'm 77, in reasonably good health but with a long history of atrial fibrillation and about a decade of hypertension, which required the ingestion of three or four drugs (changing clinical needs) to bring my BP to an acceptable level. About a year ago I started using Nitro 250 mg formula which was claimed to have far greater bioavailability than other RSV products. Early in that year I found that my blood pressure would drop to alarming levels, so I eliminated all of the medications except for one that I found had the unique effect of reducing the calcium in atherosclerotic plaques.

In addition, my overall energy level, which had severely diminished a year or so ago, has returned to its previous good state--I am back to brisk mile walks daily and my nuclear stress test recently was excellent, considering the Atrial Fibrillation.

I month ago I doubled the Nitro 250 but have yet to see any significant change, but I plan to continue the dosage for the forseeable future--at my age I'll take anything that appears to be an improvement without expecting an immediate return. I take it in the morning along with the full aspirin that I have shifted from PM to AM because of the reported synergistic effect with RSV.

As to cholesterol, mine became very high some years ago despite my generally low-fat diet, and instead of taking the prescribed drugs I took a gram of niacin and 20 mg of policosanol daily, as recommended by Life Extension Foundation (www.lef.org), and here are the results: Cholesterol—164, triglycerides—64, HDL—91 and LDL—60 as of 12/15 2008.

My arthritis has been largely subdued with a regimen of glucosamine/condroitin/msm that took a month to work, but it did except for occasional twinges. I've read the reports that RSV relieves arthritic pain, and I am contemplating discontinuing the supplements when I run out of them to see if RSV takes up the slack.

Has anyone seen a diminution of cholesterol as a result of the use of RSV? If so, I'd like to learn about it to see if I might reduce or eliminate the use of the niacin and policosanol.

I have abandoned a fifteen-year regimen, to the consternation of my internist and cardiologist, because of the recent discovery that warfarin (coumadin) if taken for a year or more increases the incidence of osteoporosis in men from 25% to 60%. Discovering that a fall and consequent hip fracture frequently means death within six months time I calculated that the increase of stroke annually by changing from warfarin to aspirin was from two percent to four percent--to me a better set of odds than what can happen with osteoporosis and a fall. Moreover, I understand the RSV has some effect on making blood platelets slipperier--something that warfarin and aspirin do in different ways.

I've long described medical specialists as being afflicted with that ancient theological malady--invincible ignorance. My specialists exemplified this syndrome perfectly when they refused to consider the variables I was dealing with (both of them are highly respected in their fields), instead relying on what they had heard in their latest professional get-togethers. What could bring about such stupendous rigidity I asked myself. They are otherwise very reasonable people when their current knowledge (or ignorance) is not challenged. I suspect it is the same problem that is endemic in the medical field--the fear of lawsuits if one's recommendations for treatment are not already accepted in the most accepted (read conservative in the medical sense) journals and conclaves.

[SirtuinInvestor]

I haven't visited this forum in a while but I've been taking 250mg daily for over 2 years. I'm 50 years old, 6'0" and weigh 185lbs, 10lbs less than when I first started taking RV. It is impossible to isolate whether RV has helped me but I contnue taking it, along with fish oil, vitamin D, glucosamine chondrotin, cholesterol off and a multi vitamin. I can say that every time I see someone that I haven't seen in a while, they enthusiastically proclaim how incredibly fit and young I look. Of course, it helps that I still play basketball twice a week, hit the gym twice a week and play tennis a few times a month. Who knows?

I started a blog on resveratrol and ideas to fund immortality a few years ago and have just posted couple of polls on resveratrol usage. If you'd like to participate follow this link http://sirtuininvestor.blogspot.com/ . Speaking of longevity, you may also like to read my recent blog entry on Cytori Therapeutics, a company that can extract stem cells from fat. Fascinating stuff and similar to Sirtris Pharmacueticals with regard to the potential of its platform for treating many afflictions.

Sirtuin Investor

Okay, I just got back from lunch. As I was sitting there, eating a hamburger covered with cheddar cheese, bacon and topped with an egg, stuffing french fry after greasy french fry into my mouth and downing it all with a chocolate malt, something dawned on me. That last article I linked to showed a decrease in *all* cause mortality, not just heart related.

...
The study found that "highly fit" men had half the risk of death compared to "low fit" men. Men who achieved "very highly fit" levels had a 70 percent lower risk of death compared to those in the "low fit" category. For every 1-MET increase in exercise capacity (fitness), the risk for death from all causes was 13 percent for both African Americans and Caucasians.
...

There's still hope for resveratrol popping couch potatoes everywhere!

David

[deshp]

Omiited the values here but I planned on posting values, pre and post supplement, after my next blood test in March 07. Stay tuned!