23 replies to this topic

[eternalone]

From an article from The New Scientist website titled "The antioxidant myth: a medical fairy tale"

Webpage

Are antioxidants just a myth? What are your thoughts on this?

[Athanasios]

I wouldn't take anything just because it was an antioxidant, but I would take an antioxidant based off of results from research. If the FDA took a different stance on supplements, this type of thinking would be common place among the populous. Very rarely do I come upon an article that has good information rather than entertainment based off controversy and misunderstanding.

[Karomesis]

my thoughts are the studies on mitochondrial targeted antioxidants [thumb] like.....

R-lipoic acid

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11259388

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=9973329

NtBHA

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=10702229

PBN

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=9928452

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_DocSum



nah....antioxidants don't work

[lol] [lol]

[eternalone]

I take several antioxidants on a daily basis myself. Based upon the research I have done, I am sticking with those. I always like to present the other side of the story.

[ryan1113]

The problem is that the researchers who design most of these human trials have only a superficial understanding of oxidative stress to begin with.

There's this widespread misconception among ignorant scientists that conduct these trials that "an antioxidant is an antioxidant", and that the word "antioxidant" is synonymous with alpha tocopherol or Vitamin C.

Indeed, if you look at studies from the last two decades -- at least in the case of human trials for diseases -- the bulk of these studies will test either Vitamin C, alpha tocopherol, or beta carotene. These seem to be the only antioxidant substances many of these researchers can name, apparently. They think that one antioxidant is the same as another, and that there's no point in looking at anything else besides silly alpha tocopherol or vitamin c.

And if you look at these human studies that tried vitamin c and d/l or d tocopherol for diseased individuals, you'll often find a conclusion that "antioxidants fail to do this or that", rather than that d/l alpha tocopherol failed to do something.

Knowledgeable life extensionists know that while these supplements have their place, their antioxidant potential is of limited utility compared to quite a number of other substances and they don't exactly top the list of those antioxidants which may help to extend lifespan or stave off disease. We also know that cocktails of antioxidants are better than megadosing with any particular antioxidant, as many antioxidants help to recycle each other in a complex network.

The evidence is actually overwhelming in animal studies that antioxidants can have substantial benefit for both healthy and diseased animals. However, alpha tocopherol, beta carotene, and vitamin C aren't exactly the leading candidates for fighting neurological diseases, cancer, and heart disease. Unfortunately, these three substances are the only ones that doctors and scientists who organize human studies seem to adknowledge.

For instance, these three substances have been tried for various neurological diseases like Alzheimer's, ALS, etc. While vitamin c and alpha tocopherol (which actually shoudln't be taken in isolation at high dosages without the other vitamers) failed to help such conditions, of course when alpha lipoic acid was tested in a small human trial it halted progression of cognitive decline in a group of Alzheimer's patients. There are now potential plans to do a test trial of extended release R-ALA for Alzheimer's. And in rodent models with ALS, lipoic acid significantly extended lifespan, as did the synthetic antioxidant AEOL-10150, which tripled life expectancy. But did vitamin c or e do this? No, not all. They had no effect.

All you have to do is look at in vivo rodent and other animal studies on a regular basis and you'll find that quite a number of antioxidants have been helpful for a long list of ailments, yet vitamin c and alpha tocopherol aren't the ones that usually come out on top or are shown to be helpful for most of these diseases. Why it is that antioxidants like R-ALA, NtBHA, grape seed extract, bilberry extract, glisodin, pomegranate extract, curcumin, carnosine, etc, are ignored, and why they keep doing trials a million times over with silly vitamin c and d/l alpha tocopherol is beyond me. Because, quite frankly, they suck as in vivo antioxidants for general purpose use compared to a very long list of other synthetic and herbal-derived antioxidants.

You know, the reason I take at least a couple grams of Vitamin C daily is not becuase I think it has some kind of awesome antioxidant abilities. I take it because it may be beneficial for other reasons like increasing collagen synthesis and for its positive effects on the immune system, etc.

Pharmaceutical companies would love to patent these natural antioxidant substances. It wasn't until very recently that some patentable synthetics with lower toxicity began to emerage, like STAZN, EUK-189, and AEOL-10150. STAZN is a spin trap antioxidant with a lot of potential that 's been patented by a pharmaceutical company. It's going to be approved for administration after a stroke to help prevent ischemic/hypoxic injury via oxidative stress. After it's been proven to be effective for this purpose (and I have no doubt it will be) and approved by the FDA, we'll probably see it being prescribed eventually for all manner of other things, assuming of course that this synthetic has low toxicity as rumored.

Just imagine how many deceased people who died after complications from a heart attack would still be alive today if a good dose of R-ALA was given at the onset of the heart attack, which would both help to stabilize heart rhythm and help portect the cardiac cells from dying with the temporary reduction in oxygen supply. Quite a huge number of people, I believe. And it would also likely prevent death of portions of the heart that occurs after a serious heart attack.

Edited by ryan1113, 06 February 2007 - 05:14 AM.

[mitkat]

Many anti-oxidants we take come from botanical sources. You should be eating a lot of vegetables and fruits anyways if you want to be healthy. If we are truly 'adapted' to metabolizing powerful concentrated foodstuffs (which I certainly believe that we are), good stuff.

[JonesGuy]

I agree; I'm not impressed with the data regarding supplement forms of antioxidants (revesterol might be different; I'm crossing my fingers). However, the data regarding foods containing antioxidants is very strong.

The main beasties I'm focusing on these days for health is internal fat and heart health. It seems that high HDL levels are the best long-term protectors against a host of coronary diseases, so I'm focusing on foods that seem to raise it. I'm having trouble finding anything superior to the tomato, and so I'm trying to increase my intake of tomatoes. I'm a bit worried about the insulin response of tomatoes, and I'm mixing in capsules of salmon oil to blunt its glycemic index (sadly, I don't know the insulin response from this combination).

The more I look at it, a variety of fibers seem to have excellent protective effects, too, as well as balanced fats.

[biknut]

I thought The New Scientist article is interesting, but it didn't tell me anything I haven't already heard. Eating veggies is good for you no doubt, but you'll have to eat about 5 bushel baskets full everyday to keep up with oxidative stress. Right now if you want to fight daily ROS there's only one product on the market that has any scientific evidence of a significant reduction. In a small study by Dr. Joe McCord, he found that Protandim increased super oxide dismutase and catalase on average by 30% and 54% respectively. The same study also showed that the people in the study supplementing with vit c and e had slightly higher oxidative stress than the ones who didn't.

http://www.protandim...erJan152006.pdf

[shuffleup]

If you were to make your own protandim, what dosages of each of the ingredients would you use?

It has Milk Thistle, Ashwaghanda, Bacopa, Green Tea Extract, and Turmeric. I think if you could find reasonable dosages you could get away a whole lot cheaper by buying the products in bulk.

[biknut]

Composition of Protandim

Milk Thistle extract 70-80% Silmarin 225mg
Bacopa Moniera extract, 45% bacosides 150mg
Ashwagandha Power 150mg
Green Tea, 98% Polyplenols 45% EGCG 75mg
Tumeric extract, 95% Curcumin 75mg

[xanadu]

I've said for years that megadosing was a bad idea. It's best to take the minimum effective dose of a lot of good things than load up on any one of them. It can be tricky to find the best dose but it can be done. The C and E vites that are disparaged are very important to take. Just because something else is better for certain things does not mean you don't need C, E, beta carotene, lycopene, etc etc. Likewise, just because resv is a great antioxidant doesn't mean you should give up the others and megadose on it. Some day we'll have computer programs that can give you the exact amounts of each substance to take each day based on your data and the food you eat. It will compensate for periods of stress, periods of inactivity and other events that affect your intake needs. For now we have to wing it.

I personally take probably 10 or 15 substances that are known to be antioxidants. Among them are ala, resv, tumeric, C, E, beta carotene, lycopene, alcar, q-10, D, fish oil, GSE, quercetin, bacopa, green tea, garlic, cinnamon, and others.

[health_nutty]

Xanadu, I always find your insights and comments very informative. I'll ask again for you to post your routine. If that is too much work, what do you think a must have regimine would look like?

[cesium]

Composition of Protandim

Milk Thistle extract 70-80% Silmarin 225mg
Bacopa Moniera extract, 45% bacosides 150mg
Ashwagandha Power 150mg
Green Tea, 98% Polyplenols 45% EGCG 75mg
Tumeric extract, 95% Curcumin 75mg

Hmm, I take all those supplements already in bulk form and at higher dosages for a much cheaper price than Protandim.

[eternalone]

Composition of Protandim

Milk Thistle extract 70-80% Silmarin 225mg
Bacopa Moniera extract, 45% bacosides 150mg
Ashwagandha Power 150mg
Green Tea, 98% Polyplenols 45% EGCG 75mg
Tumeric extract, 95% Curcumin 75mg

Hmm, I take all those supplements already in bulk form and at higher dosages for a much cheaper price than Protandim.

Hmm, interesting..looks like I'm covered. [thumb]

Here's an interesting website. Wow! Someone is VERY anti-Protandim:

Protandim Watch

I hate to sound redundant...So what are your thoughts?

[biknut]

Composition of Protandim

Milk Thistle extract 70-80% Silmarin 225mg
Bacopa Moniera extract, 45% bacosides 150mg
Ashwagandha Power 150mg
Green Tea, 98% Polyplenols 45% EGCG 75mg
Tumeric extract, 95% Curcumin 75mg

Hmm, I take all those supplements already in bulk form and at higher dosages for a much cheaper price than Protandim.

I think you can save even more money by cutting back on the dose. Dr. McCord found that increasing the dose did not increase the effect, only the side effects. I usually take Protandim before bed because it makes me sleepy.

The price is starting to come down btw. It's on sale at drugstore.com for $38.99 free shipping.

[eternalone]

Well, I guess the Protandim issue has been discussed before:

http://www.imminst.o...t=ST&f=6&t=6624

[cesium]

I just don't like the sleazebag company that came out with Protandim, it was all hype. And it still is hype, any capsule containing equivalent ingredients to Protandim would sell for a fraction of the cost.

[xanadu]

Xanadu, I always find your insights and comments very informative.  I'll ask again for you to post your routine.  If that is too much work, what do you think a must have regimine would look like?

If anyone else would second that I'd probably break down and do it. I should do it anyway and probably will one of these days.

[biknut]

I don't think anybody working for the company now was there when Protandim first came out. They don't do any advertising that I'm aware of, but they're still in business after all this time. To me , the lack of hype is refreshing.

I've read that 6 university's are doing independent studies on Protandim at this time. One study is by the American Heart Association. Another study that I believe is going on, but I don't know by who, is about children with muscular dystrophy.

[shuffleup]

Xanadu, I always find your insights and comments very informative.  I'll ask again for you to post your routine.  If that is too much work, what do you think a must have regimine would look like?

If anyone else would second that I'd probably break down and do it. I should do it anyway and probably will one of these days.

Do It.

[stephen_b]

I seem to remember intravenous vitamin C had potential against cancer. Has there been further research to follow that up that anyone is aware of?

Stephen

[health_nutty]

I seem to remember intravenous vitamin C had potential against cancer. Has there been further research to follow that up that anyone is aware of?

Stephen

Where is Pablo?

[stephen_b]

Uh oh ...

[mitkat]

Pablo is Linus Pauling's brother from another mother.