374 replies to this topic

[durandal]

Pretty basic chemistry here-- increasing surface energy speeds chemical reactions. You better hope they are packing that cocoa under nitrogen and that you are consuming it before it gets completely oxidized.

[Athanasios]

If you are that scared of it, the cocoa can be kept in the fridge (although, IMO, it isnt needed). As for the packaging:

Procyanidin and catechin contents and antioxidant capacity of cocoa and chocolate products.

        * Gu L,
        * House SE,
        * Wu X,
        * Ou B,
        * Prior RL.

    Arkansas Children's Nutrition Center, ARS-USDA, and Department of Physiology and Biophysics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Little Rock, Arkansas 72202, USA.

    Cocoa and chocolate products from major brands were analyzed blind for total antioxidant capacity (AOC) (lipophilic and hydrophilic ORAC(FL)), catechins, and procyanidins (monomer through polymers). Accuracy of analyses was ascertained by comparing analyses on a NIST standard reference chocolate with NIST certified values. Procyanidin (PC) content was related to the nonfat cocoa solid (NFCS) content. The natural cocoa powders (average 87% of NFCS) contained the highest levels of AOC (826 +/- 103 micromol of TE/g) and PCs (40.8 +/- 8.3 mg/g). Alkalized cocoa (Dutched powders, average 80% NFCS) contained lower AOC (402 +/- 6 micromol of TE /g) and PCs (8.9 +/- 2.7 mg/g). Unsweetened chocolates or chocolate liquor (50% NFCS) contained 496 +/- 40 micromol of TE /g of AOC and 22.3 +/- 2.9 mg/g of PCs. Milk chocolates, which contain the least amount of NFCS (7.1%), had the lowest concentrations of AOC (80 +/- 10 micromol of TE /g) and PCs (2.7 +/- 0.5 mg/g). One serving of cocoa (5 g) or chocolate (15 or 40 g, depending upon the type of chocolate) provides 2000-9100 micromol of TE of AOC and 45-517 mg of PCs, amounts that exceed the amount in a serving of the majority of foods consumed in America. The monomers through trimers, which are thought to be directly bioavailable, contributed 30% of the total PCs in chocolates. Hydrophilic antioxidant capacity contributed >90% of AOC in all products. The correlation coefficient between AOC and PCs in chocolates was 0.92, suggesting that PCs are the dominant antioxidants in cocoa and chocolates. These results indicate that NFCS is correlated with AOC and PC in cocoa and chocolate products. Alkalizing dramatically decreased both the procyanidin content and antioxidant capacity, although not to the same extent.

    PMID: 16719534 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[steelheader]

It would sure be helpful in making rational purchasing choices if we had a simple comparison of the epicatechin content of various brands of natural cocoa powder. For example, a comparison between Chatfield's cocoa powder, $18.56 for 60 oz at Amazon;

http://www.amazon.co...75872166&sr=8-2

and a few of the much more expensive raw cocoa powders.

[mediumspiny]

Pretty basic chemistry here-- increasing surface energy speeds chemical reactions.  You better hope they are packing that cocoa under nitrogen and that you are consuming it before it gets completely oxidized.

I think that you are assuming that antioxidants work in the body by binding to oxygen molecules. I don't think that is how they work.

[Athanasios]

I think that you are assuming that antioxidants work in the body by binding to oxygen molecules. I don't think that is how they work.

Recent study on flavinoids:

http://en.wikipedia....tioxidant_value

In 2007, research conducted at the Linus Pauling Institute and published in Free Radical Biology and Medicine indicates that inside the human body, flavonoids themselves are of little or no direct antioxidant value. Unlike in the controlled conditions of a test tube, flavonoids are poorly absorbed by the human body (less than 5%), and most of what is absorbed is quickly metabolized and excreted from the body.

The huge increase in antioxidant capacity of blood seen after the consumption of flavonoid-rich foods is not caused directly by the flavonoids themselves, but most likely is due to increased uric acid levels that result from expelling flavonoids from the body.[2] According to Frei, "we can now follow the activity of flavonoids in the body, and one thing that is clear is that the body sees them as foreign compounds and is trying to get rid of them. But this process of gearing up to get rid of unwanted compounds is inducing so-called Phase II enzymes that also help eliminate mutagens and carcinogens, and therefore may be of value in cancer prevention... Flavonoids could also induce mechanisms that help kill cancer cells and inhibit tumor invasion."[2]

Their research also indicated that only small amounts of flavonoids are necessary to see these medical benefits. Taking large dietary supplements provides no extra benefit and may pose some risks.[2]

[tintinet]

Actually, ya gotta have yer own cocoa plant and eat the beans off it raw!!!!

[Athanasios]

Yeah, I press deep water fish that I catch and suck the oil off the top with a straw daily. Any other way of getting fish oil is no good.

[shadowrun]

Simply licking the deep water fish after pressing it may offer more value...

I prefer to sponge the oil off the top and then squeeze it into an air tight bottle with a little vitamin C.

I've found it saves time and defrays the extra costs of numerous deep sea fishing expeditions -

[durandal]

cnorwood, I posted that paper already: http://www.imminst.o...&f=6&t=15289&s=
Still, I don't know how a substance can work if it is destroyed before you even ingest it...
I know you guys are being facetious, but baking chocolate in brick form will not be degraded considerably after processing.

[wydell]

Hmm, I eat the organic nibs, which are the cracked beans. Twice a day, I eat them with walnuts, cherries and blueberries.

Kind of bitter on their own. I used to eat them peanut butter and you can kind of pretend it's like a reese's if you have a good imagination.


I buy Dagaoba Oranic nibs - It's something like 5lbs for 60 dollars. I order 10lbs at a time.


The one thing that we may have to worry about is that chocalate sometimes has high lead concentrations, even organic kinds can be subject to this problem (e.g. Dagoba's recall last year, which was on bars and other products). I am not sure why chocalate sometimes has high levels of lead.

[proteomist]

Just a guess, but maybe because it's grown in volcanic soil. Tends to be full of heavy metals.

Hmm, I eat the organic nibs, which are the cracked beans.  Twice a day, I eat them with walnuts, cherries and blueberries. 

Kind of bitter on their own.  I used to eat them  peanut butter and you can kind of pretend it's like a reese's if you have a good imagination. 


I buy  Dagaoba Oranic nibs -  It's something like 5lbs for 60 dollars.  I order 10lbs at a time.


The one thing that we may have to worry about is that  chocalate  sometimes has high lead concentrations, even organic kinds  can be subject to this problem (e.g. Dagoba's recall last year, which was on bars and other products).    I am not sure why chocalate sometimes has high levels of lead.

[edward]

Yeah, I press deep water fish that I catch and suck the oil off the top with a straw daily. Any other way of getting fish oil is no good.

Simply licking the deep water fish after pressing it may offer more value...

I prefer to sponge the oil off the top and then squeeze it into an air tight bottle with a little vitamin C.

I've found it saves time and defrays the extra costs of numerous deep sea fishing expeditions -

I dug a deep water pond out in my back yard where I raise my own deep water fish. They swim in a proprietary blend of vitamin E enriched water to prevent oxidation. I have found the by far the only effective method is to eat them whole when they are young and bite size. Make sure they are still moving when you swallow them or their oil will still start to oxidize.

[lucid]

Mmmm My nibs came in today They are pretty damn bitter. But that is a small price to pay for health. Oooh damn... Going to have to get used to this, maybe it will taste better in my yogurt tomorrow.

Oh and btw, how many ounces are you guys eating a day. I think I would be happy doing 1/2 and ounce a day...

Oh also... one ounce (one serving) of nibs has 314% of my dv of Iron!!! eep!
The raw organic cocoa powder which I also got has only 22% of my dv for iron though. This suggests that the 2 are significantly different products... Anyone know if much of the antioxidant value is lost in the powder?
The nibs also have a lot more Sat Fat than the powder.... If they both have the same anti-oxidant content I would pick the powder anyday based on the nutritional info.

Products:
Powder: Nature's First Law, Raw Chocolate Powder
Nibs: Sunfood Nutrition, Organic Cocoa Nibs

Edited by lucid, 10 April 2007 - 08:15 PM.

[Brainbox]

Yeah, I press deep water fish that I catch and suck the oil off the top with a straw daily. Any other way of getting fish oil is no good.

Simply licking the deep water fish after pressing it may offer more value...

I prefer to sponge the oil off the top and then squeeze it into an air tight bottle with a little vitamin C.

I've found it saves time and defrays the extra costs of numerous deep sea fishing expeditions -

I dug a deep water pond out in my back yard where I raise my own deep water fish. They swim in a proprietary blend of vitamin E enriched water to prevent oxidation. I have found the by far the only effective method is to eat them whole when they are young and bite size. Make sure they are still moving when you swallow them or their oil will still start to oxidize.

I use this to squeeze all the available fish oil out of my carefully raised red herrings. How 'bout cutting edge technology 'ey?

[stephen_b]

From all accounts, the good part of the cocoa bean is not lost in the way Nature's first law makes their powder, but rather when the dutch process is used to make cocoa powder. I'm quite happy with the powder.

Stephen

[Brainbox]

It is very difficult to find a EU based supplier or a US supplier that is able to ship to the EU for reasonable costs. At least, I did not find one yet.

Someone any idea's to get a raw cocoa product in the EU?

[curious_sle]

Um, i take some max havelaar (fair trade) and mix it (one teaspoon) into my whey shake. Just look for stores featuring max havelaar products. I'm reasonably happy with it and with a bit of stevia and hot water (and maybe a little milk or whatever you find in your office featuring fat :-) ) it's a fairly acceptable "hot chocolate". I guess they serve many EU countries too? (/me swiss )

http://www.epices.fr...50g?language=en

[Brainbox]

Um, i take some max havelaar (fair trade) ...

Hmm, I will check it out. I assumed it would not be raw but processed. I do take Max Havelaar coffee and honey. The latter bought in CH (migross) during a holiday, I eat not much of it though...
I'm from Holland btw.

[edward]

I'm repeating the post I made in the dark chocolate bar thread because I think the lead content of cocoa issue is something we should really consider.

Anyone concerned about the high levels of lead in chocolate? Apparently the more raw cocoa one eats the more lead one consumes as the raw bean, particularly the husks absorb lead from environmental pollution in the countries they are grown in. Ingesting lead with its free radical promoting properties among other things may negate any positive effects of the cocoa.

http://www.medscape....warticle/514249

The reason this has been allowed to continue is that the amount of cocoa in the average chocolate bar is not very high so the average person even consuming dark chocolate is not all that much at risk.... However we (including myself as I take three tablespoons of raw cocoa powder daily) are megadosing cocoa so the amount of lead we are likely consuming is very high. Any thoughts?

Edit: Using Organic will not solve the problem

I know this was mentioned briefly before and the solution I think was to use organic, this however will not solve the problem. Organic is great but it will not solve the problem. The lead is not coming from fertilizers pesticides etc. but from leaded gasoline emissions in the air and residual lead in the soil in developing countries where cocoa is grown. Even if these farms were to use organic methods there would still be lead in the cocoa coming from the air and soil that is not under their control.

Edited by edward, 12 April 2007 - 04:29 PM.

[ageless]

If this has real merit then this @#(*&%^ sucks bigtime!!
Lead sucks and I don't need to expose myself to this neurotoxin.

[ageless]

Which gets me thinking that this is another huge plus about supplements... If you can purify the good stuff and remove the bad... think fish oil these days ... then that is what we're coming to because of our highly polluted environment.
I wouldn't touch most fish in the supermarket, esp. farmed because of all the toxins.

[opales]

If this has real merit then this @#(*&%^ sucks bigtime!!
Lead sucks and I don't need to expose myself to this neurotoxin.

It has merit.

Besides, the benefits may be questionable in the first place, though certainly the study initating this thread would indicate otherwise. However, things usually tend to look pretty different when tested on actual controlled trials.

http://lists.milepos...ociety&P=R10189
http://lists.milepos...society&P=R1577
http://lists.milepos...society&P=R9973

[lucid]

Opales. Can't read those links... it asks me to log in. Could you post snipets from those links for us to read? thank ya.

Yeh the amount of lead in the beans is unfortunate. Maybe none of those south americans die from heart attacks or cancer cause they are dying from lead poisoning!

The raw nibs also have TONS of iron in them. I probably won't get the nibs again even though they taste alright. The powder has much less iron. Cheers.

[opales]

Opales. Can't read those links... it asks me to log in. Could you post snipets from those links for us to read? thank ya.

The posts are pretty long. Log in as guest, or better yet, create an account, CR society mailing list and archives are very useful.

[Mind]

I tried creating an account and I tried the guest login but neither worked. Not sure what is wrong.

[s123]

I add some turmeric to my cocoa as a chelator for the lead.

[OutOfThyme]

Mmmm My nibs came in today They are pretty damn bitter. But that is a small price to pay for health. Oooh damn... Going to have to get used to this, maybe it will taste better in my yogurt tomorrow.

Oh and btw, how many ounces are you guys eating a day. I think I would be happy doing 1/2 and ounce a day...

Oh also... one ounce (one serving) of nibs has 314% of my dv of Iron!!! eep!
The raw organic cocoa powder which I also got has only 22% of my dv for iron though. This suggests that the 2 are significantly different products... Anyone know if much of the antioxidant value is lost in the powder?
The nibs also have a lot more Sat Fat than the powder.... If they both have the same anti-oxidant content I would pick the powder anyday based on the nutritional info.

Products:
Powder: Nature's First Law, Raw Chocolate Powder
Nibs: Sunfood Nutrition, Organic Cocoa Nibs

Is it really that high? [:o]
Is the content listed on the label?
I was expecting iron content in nibs to be under 5mg p/oz (28g) at worst, and under 1mg p/oz (28g) at best.

I read most of the beans iron content is concentrated on the peeled-off shell.

Edited by thymeless, 13 April 2007 - 04:10 PM.

[steelheader]

I add some turmeric to my cocoa as a chelator for the lead.

That's an interesting idea. Do you have a reference to support the strategy?
Thanks!

[lucid]

Is the content listed on the label?

Yup its on the package. Maybe it is some sort of error. (wishful thinking)

[OutOfThyme]

Yup its on the package. Maybe it is some sort of error. (wishful thinking)

Lucid, are the beans peeled or unpeeled?

ETA: Sunfood sells both types. Looks like the unpeeled version is the whole bean.

Edited by thymeless, 13 April 2007 - 05:19 PM.