374 replies to this topic

[krillin]

At what dosage of a cocoa powder like Hersheys, would the theobromine content lead to noticeable increase in anxiety and/or heart rate?  I am prone to anxiety and I don't want to take so much cocao that I exacerbate it....

Use the Solaray 40% polyphenol extract if you don't want stimulants.

[sansley]

No surprize but I'm having no luck getting the COA for Ghirardelli Unsweetened Cocoa. I'm thinking about doing one myself - any idea what a COA costs or any lab recommendations?

[stephen_b]

I seem to recall someone saying it would cost about $500 (ouch). I've sent an email off to AACLabs.com for a quote. Anthony of RevGenetics used them for the analysis report he posted here not too long ago.

Stephen

[johnblaze]

I've got a few questions...

I've tried the Ghirardelli 100% cacao unsweetened baking bar and it's bitter!
My question is does anyone know if it is devoid of the health benefits; it doesn't say it's "Dutch" chocolate, or mention that the alkyloids are removed. Ingredient lists says "Unsweetened chocolate". Their webpage says the beans are roasted and milled, that's it. - http://ghirardelli.c...nsweetened.aspx

Second question is on amounts of EC contained vs Green Tea, according to this page http://www.teatalk.c...e/chemistry.htm one cup of green tea contains 17 mg EC, which in my quick math is equivalent to the amount in cacao, and the network of different gaellic acids in grean tea enhances the absorbtion and cascade of radical scavenging.

[johnblaze]

Here is some good info:

    Procyanidin and catechin contents and antioxidant capacity of cocoa and chocolate products.

        * Gu L,
        * House SE,
        * Wu X,
        * Ou B,
        * Prior RL.

    Arkansas Children's Nutrition Center, ARS-USDA, and Department of Physiology and Biophysics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Little Rock, Arkansas 72202, USA.

    Cocoa and chocolate products from major brands were analyzed blind for total antioxidant capacity (AOC) (lipophilic and hydrophilic ORAC(FL)), catechins, and procyanidins (monomer through polymers). Accuracy of analyses was ascertained by comparing analyses on a NIST standard reference chocolate with NIST certified values. Procyanidin (PC) content was related to the nonfat cocoa solid (NFCS) content. The natural cocoa powders (average 87% of NFCS) contained the highest levels of AOC (826 +/- 103 micromol of TE/g) and PCs (40.8 +/- 8.3 mg/g). Alkalized cocoa (Dutched powders, average 80% NFCS) contained lower AOC (402 +/- 6 micromol of TE /g) and PCs (8.9 +/- 2.7 mg/g). Unsweetened chocolates or chocolate liquor (50% NFCS) contained 496 +/- 40 micromol of TE /g of AOC and 22.3 +/- 2.9 mg/g of PCs. Milk chocolates, which contain the least amount of NFCS (7.1%), had the lowest concentrations of AOC (80 +/- 10 micromol of TE /g) and PCs (2.7 +/- 0.5 mg/g). One serving of cocoa (5 g) or chocolate (15 or 40 g, depending upon the type of chocolate) provides 2000-9100 micromol of TE of AOC and 45-517 mg of PCs, amounts that exceed the amount in a serving of the majority of foods consumed in America. The monomers through trimers, which are thought to be directly bioavailable, contributed 30% of the total PCs in chocolates. Hydrophilic antioxidant capacity contributed >90% of AOC in all products. The correlation coefficient between AOC and PCs in chocolates was 0.92, suggesting that PCs are the dominant antioxidants in cocoa and chocolates. These results indicate that NFCS is correlated with AOC and PC in cocoa and chocolate products. Alkalizing dramatically decreased both the procyanidin content and antioxidant capacity, although not to the same extent.

    PMID: 16719534 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

My cocoa says it weighs out to 1g for every 1/2 teaspoon.

Does this mean the antioxidant capacity is strictly water-based and doesnt effect lipid oxiditation?

[Athanasios]

Does this mean the antioxidant capacity is strictly water-based and doesnt effect lipid oxiditation?

Exactly, they mainly neutralize oxidants in the plasma of the blood and cytoplasm of the cell and do not affect lipid peroxidation greatly.

[stephen_b]

I seem to recall someone saying it would cost about $500 (ouch). I've sent an email off to AACLabs.com for a quote. Anthony of RevGenetics used them for the analysis report he posted here not too long ago.

Stephen

They got back to me:

Thank you for your inquiry and interest in our testing service. We can help
you in lead testing using atomic absorption spectrophotometer and graphite
furnace. The cost of analysis including sample digestion is $75/sample based
on about five working days turn around.

That's certainly within this individual's budget.

So, how much lead is acceptable? I googled that "U.S. Food and Drug Administration in November 2006 on the recommended maximum lead level of 0.1 ppm in candy products likely to be consumed by children", and also 0.010 mg/L is the maximum allowed in Canadian drinking water.

Stephen

[sansley]

They got back to me:

Thank you for your inquiry and interest in our testing service. We can help
you in lead testing using atomic absorption spectrophotometer and graphite
furnace. The cost of analysis including sample digestion is $75/sample based
on about five working days turn around.

That's certainly within this individual's budget.

So, how much lead is acceptable? I googled that "U.S. Food and Drug Administration in November 2006 on the recommended maximum lead level of 0.1 ppm in candy products likely to be consumed by children", and also 0.010 mg/L is the maximum allowed in Canadian drinking water.

Interesting - for $75/sample I will give it a try and will post the results. Thanks. As for what is acceptable I'd be very happy with 0.1 ppm but from what I've read I doubt that it will be < 5.0 ppm.

S

[stephen_b]

I just tried the LEF blood testing service. Very nice; I enjoyed and learned a few things from the physician consult included with the test.

One thing that surprised me was that my iron was high at 214 ug/dL. I don't supplement iron, and I rarely eat red meat. But I do take 2 tablespoons of raw cocoa powder every morning, which contains 4 mg of iron according to label on my bottle of Nature's First Law.

The consulting physician said that vitamin C enhances iron absorption. I've been taking 500 mg with the chocolate. He mentioned lactoferrin supplements and I brought up blood donation. I'm going to cut out the chocolate powder for the time being as I obviously don't need any more iron with my excess.

Stephen

Edit: my LDL went up from 82 to 112 mg/dL from April to October of this year, and the two are a bad combo.

[methodice]

Say that we wont be able to spend 75 dollars to test all of our products before we use, and each successive batch we use. Say that sometimes lead levels are gonna be sort of high in certain supplements.

Say what is the best way to protect yourself from lead on a daily basis?

[sUper GeNius]

I just tried the LEF blood testing service. Very nice; I enjoyed and learned a few things from the physician consult included with the test.

One thing that surprised me was that my iron was high at 214 ug/dL. I don't supplement iron, and I rarely eat red meat. But I do take 2 tablespoons of raw cocoa powder every morning, which contains 4 mg of iron according to label on my bottle of Nature's First Law.

The consulting physician said that vitamin C enhances iron absorption. I've been taking 500 mg with the chocolate. He mentioned lactoferrin supplements and I brought up blood donation. I'm going to cut out the chocolate powder for the time being as I obviously don't need any more iron with my excess.

Stephen

Edit: my LDL went up from 82 to 112 mg/dL from April to October of this year, and the two are a bad combo.

A quick Google search indicates that cocoa inhibits iron absorption. Is your cocoa fortified with iron?

[sUper GeNius]

I just tried the LEF blood testing service. Very nice; I enjoyed and learned a few things from the physician consult included with the test.

One thing that surprised me was that my iron was high at 214 ug/dL. I don't supplement iron, and I rarely eat red meat. But I do take 2 tablespoons of raw cocoa powder every morning, which contains 4 mg of iron according to label on my bottle of Nature's First Law.

The consulting physician said that vitamin C enhances iron absorption. I've been taking 500 mg with the chocolate. He mentioned lactoferrin supplements and I brought up blood donation. I'm going to cut out the chocolate powder for the time being as I obviously don't need any more iron with my excess.

Stephen

Edit: my LDL went up from 82 to 112 mg/dL from April to October of this year, and the two are a bad combo.

A quick Google search indicates that cocoa inhibits iron absorption. Is your cocoa fortified with iron?

Very interesting article.


http://www.vegetaria...vailability.htm

[dannov]

I've been taking a heaping teaspoon of organic cocoa twice a day; is that in line with what the residents of Panama (was it Panama?) have on a daily basis?

[health_nutty]

No. They consume much more and their cocoa powder is less processed.

http://www.webmd.com...lp-heart-health

[stephen_b]

A quick Google search indicates that cocoa inhibits iron absorption. Is your cocoa fortified with iron?

No, it's the raw organic kind (here on Amazon). Thanks for pointing that out. If cocoa inhibits the absorption, vitamin C enhances it. Wonder which is more important.

I just don't know where the iron is coming from if not there. I do eat lots of spinach, but iron from spinach is not supposed to be bioavailable. I often eat a fried egg for breakfast (on a low carb piece of bread with olive olive oil -- yum), but that only has 1 mg/yolk. No iron pots in my house, I don't have red meat often, rarely eat liver, ...

From this page for vegans,

Adding a vitamin C source to a meal increases non-heme iron absorption up to six-fold which makes the absorption of non-heme iron as good or better than that of heme iron.

for which they cite "Hallberg L. Bioavailability of dietary iron in man. Ann Rev Nutr 1981;1:123-147".

Further,

Fortunately, many vegetables, such as broccoli and bok choy, which are high in iron, are also high in vitamin C so that the iron in these foods is very well absorbed. Commonly eaten combinations, such as beans and tomato sauce or stir-fried tofu and broccoli, also result in generous levels of iron absorption.

That describes my diet pretty well, with the addition of chicken fairly often.

Someone pass me some lactoferrin. [wis]

Stephen

[dannov]

No.  They consume much more and their cocoa powder is less processed.

http://www.webmd.com...lp-heart-health

Thanks for the link health. It appears that the processed bit may not apply to the batch that I purchased from http://www.mountainr...b/bulkherb.html, as it is incredibly bitter and as far as I know, unprocessed. What are your thoughts?

[katzenjammer]

Fascinating thread.

I keep reading in the popular press and internet that cocoa can increase dopamine levels? Anyone know if this is true?

I've been drinking the "EatRaw" brand - raw unprocessed and unsweetened...tastes good anyway. And it does seem to make me feel good, sort of like a relaxing stimulant, if that makes any sense.

[nameless]

I just noticed today that LEF started selling a couple of supplements with something called CocoaGold added. How does it compare to regular cocoa?

CocoaGoldâ„¢ Cocoa (Theobroma cacao L.) extract (bean) [standardized to 45% polyphenols (50 mg)]

It was just a matter of time before supplement makers started putting out a cocoa pill of some sort. I'm curious if it's the equivalent to actual cocoa, without the sugars, of course.

[kamcomer]

LEF just added Cocoa to it's MIX and several other products.

[browser]

Fascinating thread. 

I keep reading in the popular press and internet that cocoa can increase dopamine levels?  Anyone know if this is true? 

I've been drinking the "EatRaw" brand - raw unprocessed and unsweetened...tastes good anyway.  And it does seem to make me feel good, sort of like a relaxing stimulant, if that makes any sense.

I stir 3 heeping teaspoons of a well known baking cocoa into my morning coffee. I've noticed that:

1) I really don't really need the pick me up in the morning anymore and don't drink coffee though out the day the way I used to.
2) Most of the time I feel the euphoria I used to have when I was a teen pumping iron.

Am I worried about lead poisoning? No. I can't see this national (maybe transnational) brand selling one product in California and another product in other states (perhaps provinces?).

[rabagley]

Theobromine (the caffeine homologue found in cocoa) has a slower start and a longer half-life than caffeine, so the descriptions of a slower and more relaxed "up" in this thread are consistent with existing documentation on the benefits of chocolate.

Like caffeine, theobromine is a systemic vasodilator and will reduce blood pressure (among other benefits, including control of certain kinds of angina). It also upregulates cAMP levels through a primary metabolite (methylated xanthine) which acts as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor. This effect can increase intramuscular epinephrine levels as well as the efficiency of cellular glucose metabolization.

All sorts of good things come from cocoa.

[katzenjammer]

Am I worried about lead poisoning?  No.  I can't see this national (maybe transnational) brand selling one product in California and another product in other states (perhaps provinces?).

Not sure I'm following you on that - why not? On the dopamine connection, the below is the sort of thing I mean. Just wondering about its veracity - maybe it's completely erroneous?

____________________
Many of the natural chemical compounds in raw cocoa or cacao beans and in organic dark chocolate have been discussed in scientific literature as being pharmacologically significant to health. Here is a partial list of these active substances in natural organic chocolate (and more are discussed below).

Anandamide (a neurotransmitter known as "the bliss chemical")
Arginine (nature's aphrodisiac)
Dopamine (a neurotransmitter)
Epicatechins (antioxidants)
Magnesium (for healthy heart function)
Serotonin (anti-stress neurotransmitter)
Tryptophan (anti-depressant amino acid)
Phenylethylamine (PEA) (controls the ability to focus attention and stay alert)
Polyphenols (antioxidants)
Histamine
Tyramine
Salsolinol

Phenylethylamine (PEA) in Cocoa

PEA is a chemical found in cocoa/cacao beans which increases the activity of neurotransmitters (brain chemicals) in certain areas of the brain which control the ability to focus attention and stay alert. Elevated PEA levels occur naturally when we are captivated by a movie or good book, or wholly focused on a project or task - when we lose track of time and are not consciously unaware of what is happening around us.

PEA is found in higher levels in the brains of happy people. Cocoa or dark chocolate has been found to contain up to 2.2 percent PEA (phenylethylamine).

Anandamide (The Bliss Chemical) in Cocoa

Anandamide (or n-arachidonoylethanolamine) is a neurotransmitter which has been isolated in cocoa in quantities which are significant enough to affect the brain. Anandamide is a cannabinoid naturally found in the human brain. Anandamide is a lipid (a fat) known as "the bliss chemical" because it is released when we are feeling good. (Anandamide is the English spelling; anandamine is the French spelling.)

It is true that anandamide has a similar effect to the compound THC in cannabis (marijuana), but it acts in a different way; acts only on certain groups of brain cells and not the whole brain; and thus creates blissful feelings with much less intensity.

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (MAO Inhibitors) in Cocoa/Cacao

These rare MAO inhibitors actually produce favorable results when consumed, by allowing more serotonin and other neurotransmitters such as anandamide, dopamine and others to circulate in the brain. According to Dr. Gabriel Cousens, MAO inhibitors facilitate anti-aging and rejuvenation.

MAO inhibitors make one feel younger when they allow more neurotransmitters to remain in the bloodstream. A primary phenomenon that differentiates children from adults is the level of neurotransmitters in the blood and bodies of children. In general, as one lives longer and longer the level of neurotransmitters decreases. This leads to less creativity, less joy, more physical rigidity - and more rapid aging!

Cocoa, with its supply of MAO inhibitors, helps keep plenty of neurotransmitters in circulation, and thus helps prevent this unhappy phenomenon from occurring. "Think young - you'll have more fun!"

Now that you have learned how cocoa contains PEA, Anandamide, and MAO Inhibitors, and learned about the happy effects these chemicals can produce, can you see how real chocolate might deserve to be called "the happiest food"?

[katzenjammer]

Theobromine (the caffeine homologue found in cocoa) has a slower start and a longer half-life than caffeine, so the descriptions of a slower and more relaxed "up" in this thread are consistent with existing documentation on the benefits of chocolate.

Like caffeine, theobromine is a systemic vasodilator and will reduce blood pressure (among other benefits, including control of certain kinds of angina).  It also upregulates cAMP levels through a primary metabolite (methylated xanthine) which acts as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor.  This effect can increase intramuscular epinephrine levels as well as the efficiency of cellular glucose metabolization.

All sorts of good things come from cocoa.

Thanks rabagley - didn't see your response in time. Interesting stuff.

[Mind]

Someone pass me some lactoferrin. whis.gif

Another great way to reduce your high iron levels (from the Cocoa) is to give blood regularly (that is if you are a dude, women don't have to worry about iron as much). This might have been mentioned earlier in this thread...or maybe in the iron thread...anyway good way to maintain lower levels of iron.

[malbecman]

Along these lines about phenyethylamine being found in cocoa, don't forget that Ecstasy, eg, MDMA, is a member of the class of phenylethylamines. An interesting book to look over sometime is Phenylethylamines I have Known and Loved by Dr. Shulgin. He apparently synthesized and tried many of the phenyethylamine compounds and then published the synthesis for all to see. The MDMA route is still apparently in use today by many underground labs....

I think its just easier to take my cocoa... [thumb]

Not sure I'm following you on that - why not?  On the dopamine connection, the below is the sort of thing I mean.  Just wondering about its veracity - maybe it's completely erroneous? 

____________________
Many of the natural chemical compounds in raw cocoa or cacao beans and in organic dark chocolate have been discussed in scientific literature as being pharmacologically significant to health. Here is a partial list of these active substances in natural organic chocolate (and more are discussed below).

Anandamide (a neurotransmitter known as "the bliss chemical")
Arginine (nature's aphrodisiac)
Dopamine (a neurotransmitter)
Epicatechins (antioxidants)
Magnesium (for healthy heart function)
Serotonin (anti-stress neurotransmitter)
Tryptophan (anti-depressant amino acid)
Phenylethylamine (PEA) (controls the ability to focus attention and stay alert)
Polyphenols (antioxidants)
Histamine
Tyramine
Salsolinol

Phenylethylamine (PEA) in Cocoa

PEA is a chemical found in cocoa/cacao beans which increases the activity of neurotransmitters (brain chemicals) in certain areas of the brain which control the ability to focus attention and stay alert. Elevated PEA levels occur naturally when we are captivated by a movie or good book, or wholly focused on a project or task - when we lose track of time and are not consciously unaware of what is happening around us.

PEA is found in higher levels in the brains of happy people. Cocoa or dark chocolate has been found to contain up to 2.2 percent PEA (phenylethylamine).

Anandamide (The Bliss Chemical) in Cocoa

Anandamide (or n-arachidonoylethanolamine) is a neurotransmitter which has been isolated in cocoa in quantities which are significant enough to affect the brain. Anandamide is a cannabinoid naturally found in the human brain. Anandamide is a lipid (a fat) known as "the bliss chemical" because it is released when we are feeling good. (Anandamide is the English spelling; anandamine is the French spelling.)

It is true that anandamide has a similar effect to the compound THC in cannabis (marijuana), but it acts in a different way; acts only on certain groups of brain cells and not the whole brain; and thus creates blissful feelings with much less intensity.

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (MAO Inhibitors) in Cocoa/Cacao

These rare MAO inhibitors actually produce favorable results when consumed, by allowing more serotonin and other neurotransmitters such as anandamide, dopamine and others to circulate in the brain. According to Dr. Gabriel Cousens, MAO inhibitors facilitate anti-aging and rejuvenation.

MAO inhibitors make one feel younger when they allow more neurotransmitters to remain in the bloodstream. A primary phenomenon that differentiates children from adults is the level of neurotransmitters in the blood and bodies of children. In general, as one lives longer and longer the level of neurotransmitters decreases. This leads to less creativity, less joy, more physical rigidity - and more rapid aging!

Cocoa, with its supply of MAO inhibitors, helps keep plenty of neurotransmitters in circulation, and thus helps prevent this unhappy phenomenon from occurring. "Think young - you'll have more fun!"

Now that you have learned how cocoa contains PEA, Anandamide, and MAO Inhibitors, and learned about the happy effects these chemicals can produce, can you see how real chocolate might deserve to be called "the happiest food"?

[stephen_b]

Thanks. I've been mixing my cocoa in LEF's whey with lactoferrin, and sneaking in my vitamin C at the same time. I gave blood a couple of weeks ago, and will hopefully get one or two more pints out before my next blood test.

I just found this study ("High-dose vitamin C: a risk for persons with high iron stores?", PMID: 10218143), or publication rather, that suggests that while people high in iron should watch their vitamin C intake, one's body can often regulate matters. Oh, and the word "phlebotomy" is used in the abstract. Must sound more scientific than "a good blood letting". [lol]

Stephen

[browser]

Am I worried about lead poisoning?  No.  I can't see this national (maybe transnational) brand selling one product in California and another product in other states (perhaps provinces?).

Not sure I'm following you on that - why not? On the dopamine connection, the below is the sort of thing I mean. Just wondering about its veracity - maybe it's completely erroneous?

California has a law regulating the lead concentration in foods. And the State of California is very litigious. If a national manufacturer is going to produce this stuff, what's the likelihood it produces batches for California consumption and batches for places other than California?

[s123]

Many of the natural chemical compounds in raw cocoa or cacao beans and in organic dark chocolate have been discussed in scientific literature as being pharmacologically significant to health. Here is a partial list of these active substances in natural organic chocolate (and more are discussed below).

Anandamide (a neurotransmitter known as "the bliss chemical")
Arginine (nature's aphrodisiac)
Dopamine (a neurotransmitter)
Epicatechins (antioxidants)
Magnesium (for healthy heart function)
Serotonin (anti-stress neurotransmitter)
Tryptophan (anti-depressant amino acid)
Phenylethylamine (PEA) (controls the ability to focus attention and stay alert)
Polyphenols (antioxidants)
Histamine
Tyramine
Salsolinol

Salsolinol is a neurotoxin that damages the DNA.

http://molpharm.aspe...t/full/60/3/440

[katzenjammer]

Many of the natural chemical compounds in raw cocoa or cacao beans and in organic dark chocolate have been discussed in scientific literature as being pharmacologically significant to health. Here is a partial list of these active substances in natural organic chocolate (and more are discussed below).

Anandamide (a neurotransmitter known as "the bliss chemical")
Arginine (nature's aphrodisiac)
Dopamine (a neurotransmitter)
Epicatechins (antioxidants)
Magnesium (for healthy heart function)
Serotonin (anti-stress neurotransmitter)
Tryptophan (anti-depressant amino acid)
Phenylethylamine (PEA) (controls the ability to focus attention and stay alert)
Polyphenols (antioxidants)
Histamine
Tyramine
Salsolinol

Salsolinol is a neurotoxin that damages the DNA.

http://molpharm.aspe...t/full/60/3/440

[huh] Could it be that salsolinol in relative isolation might be a neurotoxin, but when taken in combination with the other neuroprotective compounds in cocoa these affects are mitigated? Just trying to justify all my cocoa drinking now, eh?...

[malbecman]

Oh, and don't forget Anandamide. It's a relatively recently discovered endogenous neurotransmitter that is a member of the class of compounds known as cannabinoids. The most famous member of this class of compounds is, of course, THC or tetrahydrocannibinol, the(!) major psychoactive component of marijuana. Cocoa has lots of good stuff!! [lol]



[quote][quote]
Many of the natural chemical compounds in raw cocoa or cacao beans and in organic dark chocolate have been discussed in scientific literature as being pharmacologically significant to health. Here is a partial list of these active substances in natural organic chocolate (and more are discussed below).

Anandamide (a neurotransmitter known as "the bliss chemical")
Arginine (nature's aphrodisiac)
Dopamine (a neurotransmitter)
Epicatechins (antioxidants)
Magnesium (for healthy heart function)
Serotonin (anti-stress neurotransmitter)
Tryptophan (anti-depressant amino acid)
Phenylethylamine (PEA) (controls the ability to focus attention and stay alert)
Polyphenols (antioxidants)
Histamine
Tyramine
Salsolinol

[/quote]