374 replies to this topic

[katzenjammer]

@ malbecman: hey, thanks for the info. No wonder I like this stuff so much! [lol]

~katz

[DukeNukem]

Another great way to reduce your high iron levels (from the Cocoa) is to give blood regularly (that is if you are a dude, women don't have to worry about iron as much). This might have been mentioned earlier in this thread...or maybe in the iron thread...anyway good way to maintain lower levels of iron.

Mind, practically every male over 35 should be taking IP-6 to help remove iron anyway. I consume one gram per day. I've been consuming high amounts of cocoa for three years now, when these studies first starting appearing, and I've been using IP-6 for just as long.

In any case, I thought that that other thread was about lead levels in cocoa?

[Mind]

Thanks for the info Duke

[malbecman]

More good chocolate news..... (sponsored by Nestle, of course)


Circulation. 2007 Nov 5;
Dark Chocolate Improves Coronary Vasomotion and Reduces Platelet Reactivity.
Flammer AJ, Hermann F, Sudano I, Spieker L, Hermann M, Cooper KA, Serafini M, Lüscher TF, Ruschitzka F, Noll G, Corti R. Cardiovascular Center, Cardiology, University Hospital Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland; Nestlé Research Center, Lausanne, Switzerland; and Antioxidant Research Laboratory, Unit of Human Nutrition INRAN, Rome, Italy.

BACKGROUND: -Dark chocolate has potent antioxidant properties. Coronary atherosclerosis is promoted by impaired endothelial function and increased platelet activation. Traditional risk factors, high oxidative stress, and reduced antioxidant defenses play a crucial role in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis, particularly in transplanted hearts. Thus, flavonoid-rich dark chocolate holds the potential to have a beneficial impact on graft atherosclerosis. Methods and Results-We assessed the effect of flavonoid-rich dark chocolate compared with cocoa-free control chocolate on coronary vascular and platelet function in 22 heart transplant recipients in a double-blind, randomized study. Coronary vasomotion was assessed with quantitative coronary angiography and cold pressor testing before and 2 hours after ingestion of 40 g of dark (70% cocoa) chocolate or control chocolate, respectively. Two hours after ingestion of flavonoid-rich dark chocolate, coronary artery diameter was increased significantly (from 2.36+/-0.51 to 2.51+/-0.59 mm, P<0.01), whereas it remained unchanged after control chocolate. Endothelium-dependent coronary vasomotion improved significantly after dark chocolate (4.5+/-11.4% versus -4.3+/-11.7% in the placebo group, P=0.01). Platelet adhesion decreased from 4.9+/-1.1% to 3.8+/-0.8% (P=0.04) in the dark chocolate group but remained unchanged in the control group. Conclusions-Dark chocolate induces coronary vasodilation, improves coronary vascular function, and decreases platelet adhesion 2 hours after consumption. These immediate beneficial effects were paralleled by a significant reduction of serum oxidative stress and were positively correlated with changes in serum epicatechin concentration.

PMID: 17984375

[liorrh]

Theobromine (the caffeine homologue found in cocoa) has a slower start and a longer half-life than caffeine, so the descriptions of a slower and more relaxed "up" in this thread are consistent with existing documentation on the benefits of chocolate.

Like caffeine, theobromine is a systemic vasodilator and will reduce blood pressure (among other benefits, including control of certain kinds of angina).  It also upregulates cAMP levels through a primary metabolite (methylated xanthine) which acts as a phosphodiesterase inhibitor.  This effect can increase intramuscular epinephrine levels as well as the efficiency of cellular glucose metabolization.

All sorts of good things come from cocoa.

increase your CAMP chronically is NOT good for your RAS

pubmed CAMP-renin

I'm very carefull abotu stuff that raise CAMP. it does so many things in teh body its like pressing all the keys in my keyboard at once, sort of. who knows what will happen.

[katzenjammer]

Mind, practically every male over 35 should be taking IP-6 to help remove iron anyway.  I consume one gram per day.  I've been consuming high amounts of cocoa for three years now, when these studies first starting appearing, and I've been using IP-6 for just as long.

In any case, I thought that that other thread was about lead levels in cocoa?

Sorry to continue the semi-hijack...I've heard that chlorella is very good at assisting the body in excreting heavy metals. Is IP-6 more effective?

[DukeNukem]

>>> Is IP-6 more effective?

IP-6 seems to be particularly effective at removing iron. I take chlorella (500mg) every other day, too, for general detoxification. I think chlorella is especially good for mercury binding, if I remember right.

[health_nutty]

Mind, practically every male over 35 should be taking IP-6 to help remove iron anyway.  I consume one gram per day.  I've been consuming high amounts of cocoa for three years now, when these studies first starting appearing, and I've been using IP-6 for just as long.

In any case, I thought that that other thread was about lead levels in cocoa?

Sorry to continue the semi-hijack...I've heard that chlorella is very good at assisting the body in excreting heavy metals. Is IP-6 more effective?

Could you post any studies on chlorella extreting heavy metals? I'd be very interested in some natural detox supplement that actually has research behind it.

[EmbraceUnity]

Oh, and don't forget Anandamide.  It's a relatively recently discovered endogenous neurotransmitter that is a member of the class of compounds known as cannabinoids.  The most famous member of this class of compounds is, of course, THC or tetrahydrocannibinol, the(!) major psychoactive component of marijuana.  Cocoa has lots of good stuff!!  [lol]

Let's not get carried away... even acetaminophen stimulates cannabinoid receptors. Furthermore, I read that anandamide from chocolate would only be psychoactive if you ate approximately 15 to 20 KILOgrams.

Edited by progressive, 15 November 2007 - 01:40 AM.

[browser]

Mind, practically every male over 35 should be taking IP-6 to help remove iron anyway.  I consume one gram per day.  I've been consuming high amounts of cocoa for three years now, when these studies first starting appearing, and I've been using IP-6 for just as long.

In any case, I thought that that other thread was about lead levels in cocoa?

Would you mind listing everything, short of your HRT, every male over 35 should be taking?

[tomnook]

Even more good reasons for comsuming at least 2 peices of chocolate a day - perhaps this was the brand used in the recent pubmed article noted by malbecman - not from Netstle though - this chocolate is manufactured in the UK by Appoitment to Her Majesty the Queen :
>>>>
Guilt-free chocolate
A whole 75g bar of Choxi+ Milk Chocolate contains 409 calories while a 70g bar of Dark Chocolate has only 356, so even if you find Choxi+ understandably irresistible, it is still easy to include in a balanced diet. Given that Choxi+ is an excellent source of epicatechin – as well as many other antioxidants – you need never feel guilty about enjoying it.

How Choxi+ compares with other foods a useful source antioxidants.
A widely used scientific method for measuring antioxidants is called the ORAC method (oxygen radical absorbance capacity), which measures a food’s ability to neutralise potentially harmful free radicals that can damage cell tissue within your body.

There is no set recommendation for the amount of antioxidants in our diet but some nutritionists have suggested that we should aim to eat food with a rating of about 4000 ORAC a day. That is the equivalent of 25g of Choxi+ Milk Chocolate or just 10g of Choxi+ Dark Chocolate. But if you prefer, you can always eat a pound (0.45kg) of Brussels sprouts instead...

10g Choxi+ Dark Chocolate 4600 ORAC
10g Standard dark chocolate 1970 ORAC
10g Choxi+ Milk Chocolate 1600 ORAC
10g Standard milk chocolate 620 ORAC
10g Walnuts 1360 ORAC
10g Prunes 575 ORAC
10g Raisins 285 ORAC
10g Blueberries 240 ORAC
10g Spinach (cooked) 125 ORAC
10g Raspberries 120 ORAC
10g Brussels sprouts (cooked) 100 ORAC
10g Broccoli (cooked) 90 ORAC
10g Oranges 75 ORAC
10g Apples 20 ORAC

Choxi+ contains more flavanol antioxidants than any other food and as part of a balanced diet it really is a positive indulgence!
>>>

click

and they accept payment by Paypal!


Dave

Edited by brainbox, 01 December 2007 - 01:41 PM.

[malbecman]

So apparently milk only mildly detracts from the absorption but does not impair the bioavailability of epicatechin from cocoa powder.....
Cheers! :thumb:

Ann Nutr Metab. 2007 Nov 21;51(6):493-498 Milk Does Not Affect the Bioavailability of Cocoa Powder Flavonoid in Healthy Human.
Roura E, Andrés-Lacueva C, Estruch R, Mata-Bilbao ML, Izquierdo-Pulido M, Waterhouse AL, Lamuela-Raventós RM.
Department of Nutrition and Food Science-CeRTA, University of Barcelona, Barcelona, Spain.

Background: The beneficial effects of cocoa polyphenols depend on the amount consumed, their bioavailability and the biological activities of the formed conjugates. The food matrix is one the factors than can affect their bioavailability, but previous studies have concluded rather contradictory results about the effect of milk on the bioavailability of polyphenols. Aim: The objective was to evaluate the possible interaction of milk on the absorption of (-)-epicatechin ((-)-Ec) from cocoa powder in healthy humans. Methods: 21 volunteers received three interventions in a randomized crossover design with a 1-week interval (250 ml of whole milk (M-c) (control), 40 g of cocoa powder dissolved in 250 ml of whole milk (CC-M), and 40 g of cocoa powder dissolved with 250 ml of water (CC-W)). Quantification of (-)-Ec in plasma was determined by LC-MS/MS analysis prior to a solid-phase extraction procedure. Results: 2 h after the intake of the two cocoa beverages, (-)-Ec-glucuronide was the only (-)-Ec metabolite detected, showing a mean (SD) plasma concentration of 330.44 nmol/l (156.1) and 273.7 nmol/l (138.42) for CC-W and CC-M, respectively (p = 0.076). Conclusion: Cocoa powder dissolved in milk as one of the most common ways of cocoa powder consumption seems to have a negative effect on the absorption of polyphenols; however, statistical analyses have shown that milk does not impair the bioavailability of polyphenols and thus their potential beneficial effect in chronic and degenerative disease prevention. Copyright © 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel.

PMID: 18032884

[missminni]

I have handmade cocoa balls from Jamaica
made by Jamaican women who crush the cocoa beans by hand old fashioned style
and knead them into a paste and then roll the paste up in balls about 3-4 oz each ball which dry up so that you can grater them
into powder. You then just grater enough cocoa powder off the ball, one tablespoon is more than
enough to boil in 2 cups of water and make what they call cocoa tea. It's very oily. You can see the oil in the tea.
I add a couple tsps of turbinado sugar and just a little milk or cream. Just a little. It's delicious.
Now here's the clincher. I have these balls frozen in my freezer since 1993. I forgot I even had them for a long time.
Just rediscovered them a few weeks ago. I took one out, defrosted it and grated it up and it made the most delicious cocoa
just like when I first got them.
Would the anti-oxidants still be effective after all those years in the freezer?

Edited by missminni, 04 December 2007 - 12:08 AM.

[sUper GeNius]

I have handmade cocoa balls from Jamaica
made by Jamaican women who crush the cocoa beans by hand old fashioned style
and knead them into a paste and then roll the paste up in balls about 3-4 oz each ball which dry up so that you can grater them
into powder. You then just grater enough cocoa powder off the ball, one tablespoon is more than
enough to boil in 2 cups of water and make what they call cocoa tea. It's very oily. You can see the oil in the tea.
I add a couple tsps of turbinado sugar and just a little milk or cream. Just a little. It's delicious.
Now here's the clincher. I have these balls frozen in my freezer since 1993. I forgot I even had them for a long time.
Just rediscovered them a few weeks ago. I took one out, defrosted it and grated it up and it made the most delicious cocoa
just like when I first got them.
Would the anti-oxidants still be effective after all those years in the freezer?

1993! Rancid city. Nothng lasts in a freezer over 14 years, not even if its laced with BHT. Yuck.

[missminni]

1993! Rancid city. Nothng lasts in a freezer over 14 years, not even if its laced with BHT. Yuck.

Something tells me you might be mistaken. First of all, it tastes delicious. I've been drinking it for the past month or so and feel fine. They are extremely dense balls. Secondly, cocoa doesn't even have to refrigerated. Jamaicans keep these balls of cocoa in a jar on a shelf in a very humid climate. They are definitely not rancid. They might not have the original nutritional value, but they are not rancid at all.
If there is anybody here capable of doing an analysis of this cocoa, I would be happy to send them some to test.

[health_nutty]

Just sprinkle some resveratrol on it and it will be as good as new

[sUper GeNius]

>I've been drinking it for the past month or so and feel fine.

Famous last words! Nothing with that much fat in it lasts 14 years. I'm not talking bacteria, I'm talking oxidation! Google how long food lasts in a freezer. You might gag...

[maxwatt]

>I've been drinking it for the past month or so and feel fine.

Famous last words! Nothing with that much fat in it lasts 14 years. I'm not talking bacteria, I'm talking oxidation! Google how long food lasts in a freezer. You might gag...

Wrong. Cocoa fat is mostly saturated. Almost nothing to oxidize. It is also so full of antioxidants, it protects the mono-unsaturated component. It has one of the highest ORAC scores ever measured. Also, it is so dense, oxygen cannot permeate it. Sort of like Missminni's freezer.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[sUper GeNius]

>I've been drinking it for the past month or so and feel fine.

Famous last words! Nothing with that much fat in it lasts 14 years. I'm not talking bacteria, I'm talking oxidation! Google how long food lasts in a freezer. You might gag...

Wrong. Cocoa fat is mostly saturated. Almost nothing to oxidize. It is also so full of antioxidants, it protects the mono-unsaturated component. It has one of the highest ORAC scores ever measured. Also, it is so dense, oxygen cannot permeate it. Sort of like Missminni's freezer.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Are the antioxidants fat soluble? I think not. Bacon lasts 6 months in a freezer. Not much unsaturated fats in bacon.

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 04 December 2007 - 03:15 PM.

[missminni]

>I've been drinking it for the past month or so and feel fine.

Famous last words! Nothing with that much fat in it lasts 14 years. I'm not talking bacteria, I'm talking oxidation! Google how long food lasts in a freezer. You might gag...

Wrong. Cocoa fat is mostly saturated. Almost nothing to oxidize. It is also so full of antioxidants, it protects the mono-unsaturated component. It has one of the highest ORAC scores ever measured. Also, it is so dense, oxygen cannot permeate it. Sort of like Missminni's freezer.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

YES!!! I knew it. You want some? I'll trade you for some luetolin!
What great news. You see that Full Memeber...huh?....I'm not so crazy afterall. Maxwatt you saved the day!
did you read the posts that were moved. I was the brunt of every joke, even my own.
Hey, let's analyze it. Maybe it improved with age. Maybe we will make a breakthough discovery!

[sUper GeNius]

>I've been drinking it for the past month or so and feel fine.

Famous last words! Nothing with that much fat in it lasts 14 years. I'm not talking bacteria, I'm talking oxidation! Google how long food lasts in a freezer. You might gag...

Wrong. Cocoa fat is mostly saturated. Almost nothing to oxidize. It is also so full of antioxidants, it protects the mono-unsaturated component. It has one of the highest ORAC scores ever measured. Also, it is so dense, oxygen cannot permeate it. Sort of like Missminni's freezer.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

YES!!! I knew it. You want some? I'll trade you for some luetolin!
What great news. You see that Full Memeber...huh?....I'm not so crazy afterall. Maxwatt you saved the day!
did you read the posts that were moved. I was the brunt of every joke, even my own.
Hey, let's analyze it. Maybe it improved with age. Maybe we will make a breakthough discovery!

Hmmm. Maybe he's correct. See:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cocoa_butter

[missminni]

Hmmm. Maybe he's correct. See:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cocoa_butter

They say two to five years but that's not frozen.
I think we should have it analyzed. Anybody able to do that?
Excuse me while I go have a cup of vintage cocoa.

[malbecman]

Been taking cocoa powder almost daily now, at least on weekdays, 20-26grams mixed into some coffee and a little pack of Splenda to take the edge off. I just had my bp measured by an RN, it was 118/74. Previously it was more like 125-130/80-85. Not bad for a 40yr old male methinks. I'll try to get some more measurements to get a true average.

(Note: I am taking other supps, namely resveratrol, greent tea and vit D-however, I don't believe they have as much effect on blood pressure).


Anyone else?

[tintinet]

Been taking cocoa powder almost daily now, at least on weekdays, 20-26grams mixed into some coffee and a little pack of Splenda to take the edge off. I just had my bp measured by an RN, it was 118/74. Previously it was more like 125-130/80-85. Not bad for a 40yr old male methinks. I'll try to get some more measurements to get a true average.

(Note: I am taking other supps, namely resveratrol, greent tea and vit D-however, I don't believe they have as much effect on blood pressure).


Anyone else?

Not to pour cold water all over your progress, but individual blood pressure readings can vary significantly during the course of a day, week, etc.

New guidelines term systolic over 115 "pre-hypertension." I'd aim for 100/65.

[malbecman]

Oh, yes, I know they can vary quite a bit and wanted to get more measurements to get a true new average.

100/65 would be great, not sure how or if I can ever get there......

Been taking cocoa powder almost daily now, at least on weekdays, 20-26grams mixed into some coffee and a little pack of Splenda to take the edge off. I just had my bp measured by an RN, it was 118/74. Previously it was more like 125-130/80-85. Not bad for a 40yr old male methinks. I'll try to get some more measurements to get a true average.

(Note: I am taking other supps, namely resveratrol, greent tea and vit D-however, I don't believe they have as much effect on blood pressure).


Anyone else?

Not to pour cold water all over your progress, but individual blood pressure readings can vary significantly during the course of a day, week, etc.

New guidelines term systolic over 115 "pre-hypertension." I'd aim for 100/65.

[senseix]

>>> Is IP-6 more effective?

IP-6 seems to be particularly effective at removing iron. I take chlorella (500mg) every other day, too, for general detoxification. I think chlorella is especially good for mercury binding, if I remember right.

I use IP-6 and Chlorella, i also use edta, which seems from what i understand, to do a better job of clearing out not only your arteries of calcium, but also removes just about any other mineral in the body, what do you say on that Duke? Just curious since i know your more of an expert on these matters than i, heck if anyone wants to answer that question i'd be happy to listen thanks.

[inawe]

New guidelines term systolic over 115 "pre-hypertension." I'd aim for 100/65.

100/65 gives you a pulse pressure of 35. Pulse pressure has to do with the stiffness of the vasculature (I think). How can one decrease the stiffness without an effective cross link breaker?

[maxwatt]

New guidelines term systolic over 115 "pre-hypertension." I'd aim for 100/65.

100/65 gives you a pulse pressure of 35. Pulse pressure has to do with the stiffness of the vasculature (I think). How can one decrease the stiffness without an effective cross link breaker?

I'd speculate that green tea (EGCG) and possibly resveratrol could do that.

J Cardiovasc Pharmacol. 2004 Feb;43(2):200-8. Links
Inhibitory effect of epigallocatechin 3-O-gallate on vascular smooth muscle cell hypertrophy induced by angiotensin II.Zheng Y, Song HJ, Kim CH, Kim HS, Kim EG, Sachinidis A, Ahn HY.
Department of Pharmacology, College of Medicine, Chungbuk National University, Cheongju, South Korea.

Recent evidence indicates that epigallocatechin 3-O-gallate (EGCG), the major catechin derived from green tea leaves, lowers the risk of cardiovascular diseases such as atherosclerosis and hypertension. However, a precise mechanism for this biologic function has not yet been clearly delineated. Angiotensin II (Ang II) stimulates vascular smooth muscle cell (VSMC) hypertrophy, which is a critical event in the development of atherosclerosis, hypertension, and angioplasty-induced restenosis. In the present study, we show that EGCG inhibits Ang II-stimulated VSMC hypertrophy, as determined by [3H]leucine incorporation into VSMC. Since mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) families are involved in cell growth, we determined whether EGCG affects them. EGCG pretreatment did not exert any significant changes in Ang II-stimulated activation of extracellular signal-regulated kinase (ERK) and p38 MAPK. EGCG only inhibited Ang II-stimulated activation of c-Jun N-terminal kinase (JNK). Moreover, EGCG suppressed Ang II-induced c-jun mRNA expression. In contrast, EGC, a structural analogue of EGCG, did not inhibit the JNK activity or c-jun mRNA expression. In addition, a specific JNK inhibitor, SP600125, dose-dependently suppressed Ang II-stimulated VSMC hypertrophy. These results suggest that the effect of EGCG on Ang II-induced VSMC hypertrophy is due to specific inhibition of the JNK signaling pathway at both transcriptional and posttranslational levels, which may underlie its beneficial effect on the cardiovascular diseases.

PMID: 14716206

[edward]

Just a note on blood pressure misconceptions that really annoys me the new recommendations of below 115/75 just like the old recommendations are for resting blood pressure . This means you take your blood pressure in the morning immediately upon waking or in a lab under similar conditions. Note that blood pressures in the hospital are taken on patients that have been resting.

When you are having your blood pressure taken at the doctors office or while sitting at one of those machines at your local Walmart, CVS, Walgreens or Kroger Pharmacy, you are not resting and depending upon what you are doing that day you may be very unrested.

My BP at my physicals and at my local Walmart Pharmacy and when taken by other students in clinicals at school (consistently for the past year) has usually around 117/76 though occasionally I have gotten readings as high as 124/82 and as low as 110/70. At first this alarmed me not because it is that high but as I am in excellent aerobic condition and my resting pulse rate is 52 (actually taken after resting) so my thought was that I should be no where near the pre-hypertensive range. So I took my blood pressure in the morning on the weekend after waking up (not to the adrenaline pumping BP raising alarm) and low and behold my BP was 98/62

BP is so variable and an elevation of BP and HR is a necessary response to stress, exercise and in general conscious living. So any blood pressure reading while you are awake and walking around on a normal work/school day is not extremely relevant IMHO.

So... take your blood pressure on the weekend right when you wake up, (yes you will have to get a blood pressure monitor or train a spouse to do it with a cuff and stethoscope, or get admitted to a hospital and have a nurse take if for you when you wake up in the morning or from a nap)

[katzenjammer]

^^ yes, and according to what I've heard, another caveat is that there are subjective elements to actually measuring BP (the counting thing, etc.): it is difficult for the same nurse to be consistent with the same patient; and among and between many nurses this is even more true. The only way to get a true reading is to do what my brother did: have a BP system monitor hooked up to you on a 24 hour basis as you walk around.