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Cocoa 'Vitamin' Health Benefits Could Outshine


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#361 geddarkstorm

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:24 PM

I ran across this disturbing report today, and thought it deserved some attention. Chocolate consumption is related in this retrospective study to reduced bone density. They think it may be due to the oxalic acid content of chocolate.


Ouch, that's quite disturbing for someone like me who consumes around 50 grams of non-alkalized powder a day, sometimes more. Is there anyway to get around this problem? I guess sweetening it with xylitol (supposedly increasing bone density in rats) and supplementing with D3 isn't enough, ehum...


Hm? I don't see any suggestion that D3 supplementation wouldn't reverse the problem. These women were being selected for a calcium supplement trial, but weren't on it, the researchers were just analyzed the data from the people they were selecting and spotted a trend, as far as it sounds from the abstract. Anyways, bone loss in older women is a known issue irrespective of cocoa intake. It'd be far more informative to know if cocoa trumps D3 or vice versa, and at what levels for both; though I doubt, speculatively of course, that it would win out over D3.

#362 niner

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 03:12 AM

I ran across this disturbing report today, and thought it deserved some attention. Chocolate consumption is related in this retrospective study to reduced bone density. They think it may be due to the oxalic acid content of chocolate.


Ouch, that's quite disturbing for someone like me who consumes around 50 grams of non-alkalized powder a day, sometimes more. Is there anyway to get around this problem? I guess sweetening it with xylitol (supposedly increasing bone density in rats) and supplementing with D3 isn't enough, ehum...


Hm? I don't see any suggestion that D3 supplementation wouldn't reverse the problem. These women were being selected for a calcium supplement trial, but weren't on it, the researchers were just analyzed the data from the people they were selecting and spotted a trend, as far as it sounds from the abstract. Anyways, bone loss in older women is a known issue irrespective of cocoa intake. It'd be far more informative to know if cocoa trumps D3 or vice versa, and at what levels for both; though I doubt, speculatively of course, that it would win out over D3.

There were a lot of women in the study; about a thousand. The correlation of reduced BMD with increased chocolate consumption was pretty robust, even when they corrected for other factors, like sugar consumption. While it's possible that there is a loose control in the study, I would have expected them to check the obvious things like D3. I normally discount anything based on a food frequency questionnaire, because people are horrendously inaccurate in recalling what they've eaten, but in this case it would be pretty difficult to mix up "eat chocolate less than once a week" and "once a day or more". I've been drinking cocoa in hot water with a little sweetener in place of tea and coffee for a while now, and I really love it. I also have osteopenia, and am doing everything I can think of to reverse it. Oxalic acid is a known constituent of cocoa, so it's not unreasonable that it would affect calcium. My lame-ass approach at the moment is to crush about a quarter of a generic Tums (calcium carbonate) tablet and mix it in with the cocoa. I don't notice a taste difference, and my thinking is that it might partially tie up the oxalate, or at least represent a little added calcium if nothing else. The one thing that makes me be a little less concerned about this study is that the population was all elderly females. It is entirely conceivable that younger males would show a different response. Finally, if oxalate is that bad, what happens if you eat a lot of spinach? Or is oxalate not the real problem?

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#363 geddarkstorm

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 05:43 AM

Well, I just read through the whole thing, and there's some issues with the study. We can say there's a correlation, but cannot assign causation from this study alone, anyways. For instance, while they questioned how often chocolate was eaten, they did not question the amounts, form, or purity of said chocolate. Moreover, "[a]fter adjustment for energy intake, daily chocolate consumers had significantly higher intakes of total and saturated fat, total carbohydrate, and sugar and lower intakes of protein, starch, fiber, and potassium." Another interesting sentence is this one: "In comparison to participants who rarely consumed chocolate (<1 time/wk), participants who consumed chocolate daily (≥1 time/d) had a significantly lower body weight and BMI and a higher socioeconomic status and total energy intake." Still, they did a good job analyzing the co-variant factors like BMI. However, D3 intake (or time in the sun) was not looked at, nor other supplementation. Also, I'd imagine they would have prohibited the women from taking such supplements in the first place as that would have affected their original purpose to study calcium supplementation on bone density.

Personally, I find it a bummer that they did not distinguish between the group that had been on the calcium supplements or the placebo (I was wrong about my earlier statement thinking that this was before the calcium supplement study), but put them both together, nor did they break down the two groups to show if calcium supplementation did anything either. I seriously feel they should have done that, and that we lose a lot of interesting data due to them not.

There is one possible mechanism chocolate could do it through, that oxalate, which can decrease calcium uptake. However, chocolate contains calcium, and in the study the study in question cited about oxalate, they show that oxalate did not affect the absorption of calcium from milk, it was only the cojugated calcium oxalate that was poorly absorbed, but which did not cross exchange with the milk borne calcium (see here). This strongly implies that oxalate does not stop calcium from being absorbed in the diet, unless calcium oxalate is the only form of calcium you are taking in, then you'd only need to ingest higher amounts to gain the same amount of calcium as you'd get from lesser amounts of dairy calcium. So, only the calcium in the chocolate will be less readily absorbed than other sources of dietary calcium (except spinach calcium, which is even harder to absorb apparently), not to mention that even if there's enough free oxalate to strip calcium from other conjugated dietary calcium forms (which the above study suggest it doesn't readily do) they'd have to ingest the oxalate always at the same time as their other calcium intake source to limit it. This actually makes it seem even less likely that oxalate in chocolate (or chocolate itself, alone) is responsible for the observed effects, to me.

Here is a study looking in young women and caffeine sources on bone mass, where chocolate was one of the sources investigated. While their focus was on caffeine in the chocolate, they still found no significant decrease in bone mass in the chocolate eaters. So at least there's some counter evidence in the younger age group. Interestingly, caffeine was associated with slight bone mass loss, so that's something to think about, but it was not significant.

Anyways, I don't think you have much to worry about unless another study can come out and actually prove what's going on. Right now, we have a possible correlation, but far more questions than evidence. Something to keep an eye on.

Edited by geddarkstorm, 20 January 2009 - 06:01 AM.


#364 gattaca

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 02:50 AM

I've noticed a lot of people incorporating cocoa powder into their routines in this thread. Since the thread has been going a while, could anyone who has lab work to demonstrate a change in cholesterol post their results?

#365 gattaca

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 01:07 AM

Well, regardless of whether anyone here is interested in sharing, I am starting with three huge heaping spoonfulls of cocoa powder a day, whisked into a drink.

My starting HDL: 20.

I'll see what my numbers do in a month and a half.

#366 Lufega

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 12:07 AM

I make a morning drink that combines glutamine, inulin, maca, berry mix and I usually mix in a tablespoon of dark chocolate. This keeps me going all day! Don't have any blood markers though.

#367 wobbie

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 04:12 PM

What do you think about the copper levels in cocoa ?

After reading this

http://www.acu-cell.com/choc.html

I am not sure anymore about long term benefits.

Excerpt :

Again - in isolation, polyphenols work well in a test-tube environment, but cocoa also happens to be
very high in Copper, which unfortunately inhibits the action of some flavonoids, particularly hesperidin,
which is an essential flavanone (see also Acu-Cell Nutrition "Bioflavonoids"). This in turn can lead to a
greater incidence of vascular degeneration such as varicose veins, hemorrhoids, aneurysms, bruising,
heart disease, and stroke.
While low copper can be implicated with weak and fragile blood vessel as well, high copper levels
are much more common in many parts of the world, with nearly 90% of patients tested exhibiting a
chemical profile that - in addition to their own unique chemistry - contained an underlying pattern that
reflects the impact of copper overload on various opposing nutrients, which include sulfur, chromium,
molybdenum, nickel, Vitamin C, hesperidin, and others.

The additional consumption of high copper sources such as chocolate and cocoa products, coffee,
cola drinks (also shellfish, liver, soybeans, and many nuts and seeds...), not only aggravates many high
copper-related medical conditions, but it is responsible for contributing to, or creating new ones.



I was concerned after reading about the copper too... But then my thoughts went to the Kuna, "are they all dying of copper poisoning!??!?!?"

Never trust anyone trying to give you coffee enemas - that's my new motto.

Although the cacao is truly addictive... I'm in the process of forcing myself to cut back. Too much just doesn't feel right to me, or my wallet.

One small hot chocolate milk a day: large dessert spoon of cacao powder with a dash of cinnamon, a dash of sugar and a pinch of cayenne... Beautiful.

#368 niner

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 05:42 PM

What do you think about the copper levels in cocoa ?

After reading this

http://www.acu-cell.com/choc.html

I am not sure anymore about long term benefits.

Excerpt :

Again - in isolation, polyphenols work well in a test-tube environment, but cocoa also happens to be
very high in Copper, which unfortunately inhibits the action of some flavonoids, particularly hesperidin,
which is an essential flavanone (see also Acu-Cell Nutrition "Bioflavonoids"). This in turn can lead to a
greater incidence of vascular degeneration such as varicose veins, hemorrhoids, aneurysms, bruising,
heart disease, and stroke.
While low copper can be implicated with weak and fragile blood vessel as well, high copper levels
are much more common in many parts of the world, with nearly 90% of patients tested exhibiting a
chemical profile that - in addition to their own unique chemistry - contained an underlying pattern that
reflects the impact of copper overload on various opposing nutrients, which include sulfur, chromium,
molybdenum, nickel, Vitamin C, hesperidin, and others.

The additional consumption of high copper sources such as chocolate and cocoa products, coffee,
cola drinks (also shellfish, liver, soybeans, and many nuts and seeds...), not only aggravates many high
copper-related medical conditions, but it is responsible for contributing to, or creating new ones.

I was concerned after reading about the copper too... But then my thoughts went to the Kuna, "are they all dying of copper poisoning!??!?!?"

I looked at the acu-cell site, and I have to say that it is completely devoid of any scientific references for its claims. It revolves around what appears to be a "chiropractic" method for determining micronutrient levels, for which, needless to say, I'd, umm, like to see some evidence. I went to pubmed and looked into the copper in cocoa issue, and found this letter to the editor, included in its entirety, that covers the issue:

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 76, No. 3, 687-688, September 2002
Letter to the Editor
Extra dietary copper inhibits LDL oxidation
Leslie M Klevay

US Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service Grand Forks Human Nutrition Research Center PO Box 9034 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9034 E-mail: lklevay@gfhnrc.ars.usda.gov

Wan et al (1) fed cocoa powder and dark chocolate to subjects for 4 wk and found that LDL oxidation was inhibited in vitro. This favorable effect on cardiovascular risk status was attributed to flavonoids, a group of polyphenolic compounds with antioxidant characteristics. An increase in dietary copper during this experiment may have contributed to their results.

The Western diet often is low in copper: approximately one-third of 849 diets that were analyzed provided 1 mg/d (2). The interquartile range was 0.91–1.86 mg/d. Milk chocolate and cocoa powder are in the upper quartile of 235 foods evaluated by Lurie et al (3), ranking 186 and 232, respectively, in copper concentration. Calculations using Lurie et al’s values for chocolate and cocoa powder of 2.86 and 50.0 µg/g, respectively, show that these supplements would have added nearly 1.15 mg Cu to the basal diet each day. Dark chocolate contains more copper than does light chocolate and would have increased this estimated amount even more. It seems likely that the total daily intake of copper might have been 3 times the daily estimated average requirement (0.7 mg) or twice the recommended dietary allowance (0.9 mg) for adults (4).

Although copper salts (at 10 µmol/L) and LDL are highly reactive in vitro, this phenomenon is probably irrelevant to human physiology because copper ions are virtually nonexistent (1 amol/L) in vivo (5–7). Indeed, after providing copper supplementation to middle-aged subjects, Rock et al (8) found that the subjects’ erythrocytes were more resistant to oxidation in vitro. Although this improvement occurred without an increase in the activity of superoxide dismutase (EC 1.15.1.1), an enzyme that provides defense against oxidative damage, the results may indicate that the subjects ordinarily ate too little copper and had other means of defense.

Perhaps the usual copper intakes of the subjects studied by Wan et al were too low also. Their basal diet probably was low in copper because it excluded beans and soybeans, 2 foods in the top quartile (see above). Control of the diets for copper intake as well as for intakes of caffeine, cholesterol, fat, and fiber would have been informative because the increased copper intake from chocolate seems smaller than some beneficial amounts given by Rock et al (8). Perhaps chocolate enhances the absorbability of copper.

Copper is an antioxidant nutrient for cardiovascular health (7) and has no prooxidant activity at a considerably higher intake (8) than that given by Wan et al. Diets low in copper are suggested as an explanation for much of the epidemiology and pathophysiology of ischemic heart disease (9). Chocolate is a pleasant dietary supplement.

REFERENCES

1. Wan Y, Vinson JA, Etherton TD, Proch J, Lazarus SA, Kris-Etherton PM. Effects of cocoa powder and dark chocolate on LDL oxidative susceptibility and prostaglandin concentrations in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 2001;74:596–602.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
2. Klevay LM. Lack of a recommended dietary allowance for copper may be hazardous to your health. J Am Coll Nutr 1998;17:322–6.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
3. Lurie DG, Holden JM, Schubert A, Wolf WR, Miller-Ihli NJ. The copper content of foods based on a critical evaluation of published analytical data. J Food Comp Anal 1989;2:298–316.
4. Food and Nutrition Board, Institute of Medicine. Dietary reference intakes for vitamin A, vitamin K, arsenic, boron, chromium, copper, iodine, iron, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, silicon, vanadium, and zinc. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 2001:7.1–27.
5. May PM, Linder PW, Williams DR. Ambivalent effect of protein binding on computed distributions of metal ions complexed by ligands in blood plasma. Experientia 1976;32:1492–4.[Medline]
6. May PM, Linder PW, Williams DR. Computer simulation of metal-ion equilibria in biofluids: models for the low-molecular-weight complex distribution of calcium(II), magnesium(II), manganese(II), iron(III), copper(II), zinc(II), and lead(II) ions in blood plasma. J Chem Soc Dalton Trans 1977;588–95.
7. Allen KG, Klevay LM. Copper: an antioxidant nutrient for cardiovascular health. Curr Opin Lipidol 1994;5:22–8.[Medline]
8. Rock E, Mazur A, O’Connor JM, Bonham MP, Rayssiguier Y, Strain JJ. The effect of copper supplementation on red blood cell oxidizability and plasma antioxidants in middle-aged healthy volunteers. Free Radic Biol Med 2000;28:324–9.[Medline]
9. Klevay LM. Trace element and mineral nutrition in disease: ischemic heart disease. In: Bogden JD, Klevay LM, eds. Clinical nutrition of the essential trace elements and minerals: the guide for health professionals. Totowa, NJ: Humana Press Inc, 2000:251–71.

Using Lurie's data, one ounce (28.35g) of cocoa powder would provide 1.4 mg copper, and that's quite a lot of cocoa powder. One ounce of chocolate would provide only .08 mg, not very significant unless you eat an insane amount of chocolate. My take on this is that unless you are going nuts with cocoa consumption, this is not a big problem. I am concerned that it is yet another source of copper, along with leachate from copper plumbing and excessive amounts in some multivitamins, and it all adds up. I'm trying to keep my total copper intake reasonable, so this is good to know about. It's not a reason to stop using cocoa, however.

#369 Forever21

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 12:04 PM

April 1, 2010 (Nuthetal, Germany) — The largest observational study so far to examine the association between chocolate consumption and risk of cardiovascular disease has found that those who ate the most chocolate--around 7.5 g per day--had a 39% lower risk of MI and stroke than individuals who ate almost no chocolate (1.7 g per day) [1].

http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry396670

#370 NDM

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:58 PM

So I read the whole thread...and I lost my initial enthusiasm for cocoa...high in lead...damage to the bones...etc

So far, the best idea seems to be Krillin's...to take the cocoa extract from Solaray...however, I would like to know how much of raw cocoa equivalent is in one of those capsules? They say take 1/day. Also, there is a presumption that what goes in an extract is more pure (less lead) than raw cocoa. But how do we know for sure that this is so?

Edited by NDM, 04 April 2010 - 06:59 PM.


#371 nameless

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 07:58 PM

So I read the whole thread...and I lost my initial enthusiasm for cocoa...high in lead...damage to the bones...etc

So far, the best idea seems to be Krillin's...to take the cocoa extract from Solaray...however, I would like to know how much of raw cocoa equivalent is in one of those capsules? They say take 1/day. Also, there is a presumption that what goes in an extract is more pure (less lead) than raw cocoa. But how do we know for sure that this is so?

I'm not sure I'd trust Solaray, but if you have the money, there are other extracts out there, like LEF's. The problem is, to get to the polyphenol level you'd find in real cocoa, it'd sort of bankrupt you. It'd require multiple caps = polyphenols found in real cocoa.

And it's a good question regarding lead (iron, copper and oxalates too) in extracts.

I just looked up Cirkuhealth's extracts, and they contain iron (and don't mention polyphenol content). It is very possible that extracts contain the same lead, copper, iron and oxalates actual cocoa does.

Maybe ask LEF or Solaray, and see if they respond with data? If they say who makes their extract, you could alternatively ask the source those same questions.

Edited by nameless, 04 April 2010 - 07:59 PM.


#372 MrSpud

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 09:39 PM

FYI - Regarding whether processing reduces the polyphenols in chocolate, here's an excerpt from patent 7,678,407, Mars Cocoapro patent

"Cocoa beans contain polyphenols. These polyphenols have recently been extracted and screened for biological activity. It has been discovered that cocoa polyphenol extracts, particularly procyanidins, have significant biological utility. The extracts or compounds further separated therefrom have generally been prepared, on a laboratory scale, by reducing cocoa beans to a powder, defatting the powder, and extracting and purifying the active compound(s) from the defatted powder. The powder is generally prepared by freeze-drying the cocoa beans and pulp, depulping and deshelling the freeze-dried beans and grinding the deshelled beans or nibs. The extraction of active compound(s) has been accomplished by solvent extraction techniques, and the extracts have been purified by gel permeation chromatography, preparative High Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC) techniques, or by a combination of such methods (see U.S. Pat. No. 5,554,645 to Romancyzk et al.).

It has now been determined that the recovery of polyphenols appears to be inversely proportional to the degree of fermentation of the cocoa beans. Accordingly, the use of fermented beans as a feedstock material, which is important for good chocolate flavor, reduces the amount of polyphenols available in the cocoa component(s) derived from the beans.

It has also been determined that higher processing temperatures and/or longer processing times, e.g. in the roasting step, reduces the amount of polyphenols available in the cocoa components derived from the feedstock beans. Cocoa components have not, heretofore, been produced having substantial quantities of polyphenols. These problems in the art have not heretofore been recognized. "

#373 blood

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:26 AM

Apparently people with Parkinson's Disease consume more chocolate (than those without PD).

It was thought that maybe they were self-medicating - i.e., is there something in the chocolate that improves PD symptoms?

That theory didn't pan out.

Now, it's been suggested that over-consumption of chocolate might actually be causing PD:

http://www.confectio...-Disease-review

Chocolate over-consumption may be linked to Parkinson’s Disease – review

Indian researchers have urged consumers to limit the chocolate they eat because it is the food richest in a component linked to Parkinson’s Disease.

The review published in the Neuroscience Bulletin by Borah et al. at the Assam University in India said that β-phenethylamine (β-PEA), a naturally occurring component found in cocoa beans and its by products, may be a cause of Parkinson’s Disease.

“As consumption of some β-PEA-enriched food items has become an addiction in modern life, our proposed mechanism is of enormous significance and impact,” said the researchers.

They added: "Limited consumption of these foods is recommended.”

However, their findings are based mainly on rodent studies and they acknowledge the effect on humans needs further investigation.

Levels in chocolate

The research said that a person eating 100g of chocolate per day, the standard size for most chocolate tablets, would have a β-PEA intake of between 0.36-0.83 mg/day depending on the type of chocolate.

An earlier study by Sengupta et al.found that β-PEA at doses of 0.63 and 1.25 mg/day could cause Parkinson’s symptoms in adult mice.

“These results suggest that the amount of chocolate that a person takes normally might be toxic to dopaminergic neurons,” said Borah et al. in their review.


More:

http://link.springer...2264-013-1330-2

Contribution of β-phenethylamine, a component of chocolate and wine, to dopaminergic neurodegeneration: implications for the pathogenesis of Parkinson’s disease

Anupom Borah, Rajib Paul, Muhammed Khairujjaman Mazumder, Nivedita Bhattacharjee

Abstract

While the cause of dopaminergic neuronal cell death in Parkinson’s disease (PD) is not yet understood, many endogenous molecules have been implicated in its pathogenesis. β-phenethylamine (β-PEA), a component of various food items including chocolate and wine, is an endogenous molecule produced from phenylalanine in the brain. It has been reported recently that long-term administration of β-PEA in rodents causes neurochemical and behavioral alterations similar to that produced by parkinsonian neurotoxins. The toxicity of β-PEA has been linked to the production of hydroxyl radical (·OH) and the generation of oxidative stress in dopaminergic areas of the brain, and this may be mediated by inhibition of mitochondrial complex-I. Another significant observation is that administration of β-PEA to rodents reduces striatal dopamine content and induces movement disorders similar to those of parkinsonian rodents. However, no reports are available on the extent of dopaminergic neuronal cell death after administration of β-PEA. Based on the literature, we set out to establish β-PEA as an endogenous molecule that potentially contributes to the progressive development of PD. The sequence of molecular events that could be responsible for dopaminergic neuronal cell death in PD by consumption of β-PEA-containing foods is proposed here. Thus, long-term over-consumption of food items containing β-PEA could be a neurological risk factor having significant pathological consequences.


I submitted a question on this issue to examine.com, and got this reply from Kurtis:

Until more research comes by, I'm going to assume that it is a nonconcern. Chocolate does not have that much b-PEA in it anyways, and orally ingested b-PEA without other drugs (such as MAOi drugs) does not last long in the brain.

This is somewhat supported by b-PEA being a molecule that mediates euphoria and eating chocolate not sending you into a drug-induced pleasure trip.

Injections of b-PEA would most likely cause neurotoxicity, but I do not think this applies to moderate oral consumption nor supplementation of cocoa polyphenolics.


What do people here make of this?

My concerns:
a) I am one of the tragics who does eat a 100gm block of chocolate/ day. Maybe I shouldn't be doing that.
b) I use Jarrow Brainboost, which has 500 mg of Chocamine™ per serve... which contains 100 mg of caffeine + theombrine and 25 mg polyphenols... what makes up the remaining 375 mg?

#374 zorba990

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:49 PM

Can you sprout the raw beans?

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#375 majkinetor

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:55 AM

Is there anyway to reliably chelate lead? Do all raw cocao products contain dangerous amounts of
lead?



Vitamin C

http://jama.jamanetw...rticleid=190540
http://onlinelibrary...0124.x/abstract
http://annhyg.oxford.../51/6/563.short
http://intl.jacn.org.../18/2/166.short
(there was a 81% decrease in blood-lead levels in the 1000 mg ascorbic acid group)

Bunch of studies there, those are just few. The dose must be high ofc. Pauling was talking about this multiple times ofc. Plus, if you have kids, less lead makes them more intelligent (and more cocoa makes them less asthmatic/respiratory-problematic)

What do people here make of this? [parkinson adverse effect]



C solves this problem too, as it is beneficial in parkinson
http://www.doctoryou.../parkinson.html
For more info: "Roles of Vitamins E and C on Neurodegenerative Diseases and Cognitive Performance"
You can find bunch of papers about it around.

Edited by majkinetor, 22 May 2013 - 06:02 AM.





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