36 replies to this topic

[narcissistic]

I’m wondering what possible advantages L-phenylalanine would have over tyrosine. Apparently L-phenylalanine is metabolised in the liver in to tyrosine, by the enzyme phenylalanine hydroxylase. This gives the liver some extra workload that probably in most cases are insignificant, but yet unnecessary if one can achieve the same results by simply supplementing with tyrosine.

However (and this is what I don’t get) L-phenylalanine isn’t yeast metabolised to tyrosine but actually enters the brain in its original form as well through the large neural amino acid transporter where it competes for its limited capacity with among others tyrosin.

Apparently L-phenylalanine, in its original from, has a role in the brain and its function what dos it do? What effect on dopamine and general brain function would it have if less L-phenylalanine enters the brain?

[narcissistic]

any one supplementing with Tyrosine or phenylalanine cares to tell me why?

[narcissistic]

Tyrosine and phenylalanine competes with the branch chained amino acids (leucine, isoleucine and valine), any one considering that a problem?

[edward]

I tried supplementing phenylalanine and tyrosine years ago at all sorts of dosages, with food without food (empty stomach), AM PM etcetera, etcetera... and frankly they didn't do anything for me. Absolutely nothing. Every time I see a post or article relating to supplementing these I am baffled. Yes its a good theory and makes such logical sense that journalists in pop science magazines seem to spew "try supplementing phenylalanine and tyrosine to ensure healthy neurotransmitter levels" in their articles about "brain health". I immediately deem such articles as worthless. Maybe my body is just weird but these aminos just don't do anything for me as supplements. I think there is a lot of placebo going on here for people who these actually "work" for (or they don't consume enough high quality protein and their diets are generally bad). My theory is that if you get enough high quality protein then supplementing with phenylalanine and tyrosine won't do you any good. I dont think it will really hurt you just waste your money but they are cheap so I guess that is not that big of a concern either. Oh well. Again maybe my body is just weird.

[mike250]

that is not a problem as long as you're getting sufficient protein from your diet.

[bob_d]

if tyrosine would do anything for you, you'd have the same problems with it, that l-dopa would cause, if you'd take it.

[mike250]

DLPA can help with chronic pain. It plays some role in the chemical PEA for short which signals to the brain that there is pain.

I take DLPA and have tried tyrosine but the tyrsoine would cause me to have some pain issues. I can get some knots and kinks in my neck and shoulder when my DLPA levels fall. But the tyrosine does nothing for the musclature or that problem with pain. I also know that DLPA can help prevent the breakdown of endorphins and enkaphalins which also play a role in pain sensation.

Some find that tyrosine makes them edgy if they take too high a dose. I tried tyrosine a number of years ago and did have that experience. I happen to think that if you take DLPA or tyrosine you need to also supplement tryptophan. I believe that the dopameragic system must be balanced with the serotoneragic system. I find that if I take too much tryptophan I will have movement problems, intention tremors, which indicate that my dopamine levels are low.

I take BCAA and have never had a problem with any contraindication with BCAA and either DLPA and tyrosine. I would not suggest you ever take tryptophan and DLPA together. These two will fight for absorbtion in your brain, and I think tryptophan may be the loser. I have tried taking some tryptophan a short while after taking my DLPA and experienced a sensation in my head somewhat like a headache that did go away after about 20 minutes.

I take all the the amino acids with food except for tryptophan. Barry Fox in his book about DLPA and pain said to take the DLPA with meals. I find since I take several grams of DLPA that may explain why I can take it with food. I take less tryptophan but tryptophan is considered weak when it comes to getting past the blood brain barrier.

I am not sure why you are taking and what other nutrients you are taking with it.

why not use L-dopa? isn't it a dopamine precursor as well?

[mike250]

oh ok. I thought it was an amino acid. isn't it also found in mucuna puriens.

[edward]

drug, supplement, nutrient .... basically semantics

L-Dopa is an amino acid, though one not found in high concentrations in nature (but it does occur) and yes it has been marketed by pharmaceutical companies to treat (actually alleviate) symptoms of parkinson's disease, so yes therefore it is a "drug".

[bob_d]

Yes it's a dopamine precursor. And it causes parkinson like sideffects if you take it long term.

[krillin]

Yes it's a dopamine precursor. And it causes parkinson like sideffects if you take it long term.

That doesn't make sense to me: that it is a dopamine precursor and will cause Parkinson if you take it long enough. Parkinsons I believe is not about low dopamine levels but dopamine receptors going bad or something. Some drugs that raise dopamine will help with Parkinson but those drugs do not really offer any cure. You can't repair the receptors, I guess.

Parkinson's is from loss of dopamine-producing cells. Dopamine degradation produces free radicals that damage dopamine-producing cells. So if you increase dopamine without having sufficient antioxidant defenses, you put yourself on the road to Parkinson's.

[djmmm]

If you take DLPA, it is not necessary to take tyrosine or l-dopa.
Phenylalanine---> tyrosine---> l-dopa---> dopamine--> norepinephrine--> epinephrine.

Long term use of L-dopa causes an increase in oxidation resulting in potential neurotoxicity. Also, the "visibe" effects that we see from Parkinsons (dyskinesia) can be a direct result of chronic l-dopa supplementation.

Dyskinesia: L-dopa-induced and tardive dyskinesia
http://www.ncbi.nlm....6&dopt=Abstract

[Futurist1000]

I think that the enzyme that converts tyrosine to L-dopa (called tyrosine hydroxylase) is normally saturated under normal physiological conditions. That means that supplementing with tyrosine will not lead to any increase in l-dopa and thus no more increase in dopamine. That's why they usually give parkinson's l-dopa which is converted to dopamine by the enzyme aromatic amino acid decarboxylase which is not saturated. Tyrosine probably won't do much, if anything. If you want a natural source of l-dopa try looking up the supplement mucuna pruriens. I think it contains a certain amount of l-dopa. It would probably be a better way to increase dopamine.

[mike250]

so mucuna puriens + DLPA would be a good dopamine boosting combo?

[narcissistic]

I take DLPA and have tried tyrosine but the tyrsoine would cause me to have some pain issues. I can get some knots and kinks in my neck and shoulder when my DLPA levels fall. But the tyrosine does nothing for the musclature or that problem with pain. I also know that DLPA can help prevent the breakdown of endorphins and enkaphalins which also play a role in pain sensation.

I’m happy to hear that dl-phenylalanine works for you I have considered trying it as well, mostly to see what happens, the D-form seams to be something else than the natural L-form though. Does it case you to have any side effects?

[narcissistic]

I have hard to believe that tyrosine wouldn’t work at all, and the effect I have bin experiencing would be nothing but placebo (even though I relays it’s possible), in a way its comparable with L-tryptofan witch has proven to be effect in raiseing serotonin levels. However it’s harder to effect dopamine levels through food and supplements than it is to effect serotonin.

I think that the enzyme that converts tyrosine to L-dopa (called tyrosine hydroxylase) is normally saturated under normal physiological conditions.

I find this very interesting maybe that’s why some people experience no effect what so ever on tyrosine (in that case sudden the excess tyrosine be expelled trough the urine?), and perhaps others by nature have higher capacity of converting tyrosine in to L-dopa and therefore experience positive effects from their tyrosine supplements; until they reach as certain optimal dose. Maybe even Parkinson is associated with low levels of tyrosine hydroxylase, and by consequence high levels of tyrosine in the urine.

The effect from tyrosine might partly be associated with its ability to compete with L-tryptofan as well, serotonin moderate the effect from dopamine. orthomolecular might have a point saying that the dopameragic system must be balanced with the serotoneragic system. However I wonder what the long term consequences of elevation of eather serotonin or dopamine, on behalf of the other on, might be might be.

Personally I get at profound effect from tyrosine in combination with exercise it declines my need for sleep significantly, some times to les than 6h, I don’t like sleeping that much so I consider that as a good thing. And in general I can work a lot harder and get more out of my day. It also increases my libido. When I take it I get a that typical feeling of reward, typical for dopamine release, more often. Throw my experience high dopamine levels work very well in combination with GABA, when I was taking tyrosine by it self I almost felt uneasy some times and my systolic blood pressure was elevated by 8% (I can be sure of cores) so I started supplement with L-theanin and taurine as well. I also take a farley large dos of coca, as krillin mentioned I believe its true that the need for nero protective antioxidants increases coca as well as bluberys contains excellent ones. and of course taurine helps the natural production of melatonin as well.

Edited by narcissistic, 04 May 2007 - 02:53 PM.

[narcissistic]

I don’t think that L-dopa is to be considered a drug in that case I think DMAE or maybe more comparable 5-HTP is a drug as well (However it probably best for a healthy individual not to take it), after all it’s a natural accruing compound necessary for brain function. Probably its only in very high doses it cases side effects, and i gess pepel with parkinson are more susceptible to them as well. This text: http://www.itmonline...s/gastrodia.htm] among other things describes Parkinson from the Chinese medicines perspective, and presents natural constitutes in plants witch have properties similar to L-dopa.

Edited by narcissistic, 04 May 2007 - 03:03 PM.

[stillalive]

I think DL phenyalanine sounds very promising. In many books they say it have be used for depresion with very good resultats. But they have often used low doses like 200mg, so 1g should give resultats. I will Get DLPA next week so it shall be intresting to test.

Tyrosin on the other hand have I heard that you need very big amounts of for resultats. Also it dosen't have the effect on PEA and endorphins like DLPA.

tyrosine hydroxylase could perhaps be a limiting factor for effect. Have heard that you need to supplement with c vitamin and b6 to get effect of DLPA. Can it be beacause they help to form the enzyme?

Intresting thing is that your mind can affect it, inlearned helpness( thought that you can affect the situation) decreased the activity of the enzyme. It sounds logic, some people become really passive when tey are depressed.

[ageless]

There is some scientific data to suggest Tyrosine and phenylalanine do work and my personal subjective experience tells me that it does for me. Currently I ingest AOR's Turbo Tyro Tea first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. This is crucial as other protein sources supply amino acids such as tryptophan that would compete with entry across the blood-brain barrier and negate any benefits with regard to dopamine, norepinephrine and phenethylamine.
I feel it improves libido for myself and does this within the day i ingest it. I have experimented many times and continue to reap the rewards.

[ageless]

I think DL phenyalanine sounds very promising. In many books they say it have be used for depresion with very good resultats. But they have often used low doses like 200mg, so 1g should give resultats. I will Get DLPA next week so it shall be intresting to test.

Tyrosin on the other hand have I heard that you need very big amounts of for resultats. Also it dosen't have the effect on PEA and endorphins like DLPA.

tyrosine hydroxylase could perhaps be a limiting factor for effect. Have heard that you need to supplement with c vitamin and b6 to get effect of DLPA. Can it be beacause they help to form the enzyme? 

Intresting thing is that your mind can affect it, inlearned helpness( thought that you can affect the situation) decreased the activity of the enzyme. It sounds logic, some people become really passive when tey are depressed.

Turbo Tyro Tea does include B6 and Vit. C amongst other things. [thumb]

[mike250]

If tyrosine helps with needing less sleep and working out it might be that you are boosting your norepinephrine (NE) or epinephrine (E) levels instead of dopamine (DA). Tyrosine, I think, is probably better if you want to increase NE or E levels. DLPA helps with things that tyrosine doesn't help with like the pain problems.

this is an interesting point that I haven't come across before. any reasons for that?

Edited by mike250, 05 May 2007 - 01:26 AM.

[mike250]

I think DL phenyalanine sounds very promising. In many books they say it have be used for depresion with very good resultats. But they have often used low doses like 200mg, so 1g should give resultats. I will Get DLPA next week so it shall be intresting to test.

Tyrosin on the other hand have I heard that you need very big amounts of for resultats. Also it dosen't have the effect on PEA and endorphins like DLPA.

tyrosine hydroxylase could perhaps be a limiting factor for effect. Have heard that you need to supplement with c vitamin and b6 to get effect of DLPA. Can it be beacause they help to form the enzyme? 

Intresting thing is that your mind can affect it, inlearned helpness( thought that you can affect the situation) decreased the activity of the enzyme. It sounds logic, some people become really passive when tey are depressed.

Turbo Tyro Tea does include B6 and Vit. C amongst other things. [thumb]

the B-vitamins seem to be involved in every neurotransmitter so maybe a B-complex formula can help with that regards. I'm not sure what the role of Vitamin C is though?

[narcissistic]

I yeast learned that L-phenylalanine builds up the body’s supply of tyrosine but supplementing directly with tyrosine doesn’t. that might be one thing speaking to L-phenylalanine advantage. I’m getting more and more interested in DL-phenylalanine because of its effect on endorphins and enkaphalins, and I’m wondering how high dos one would require.

but maybe its unnecessary and perhaps even foolish for me to take it as I don’t have any pain problems neither do I suffer from depression, I’m yeast curious what effects it would have it might even have a positive effect on cognition.

I don't get any side effects at all from DLPA. I did find that in the beginning of supplementing that taking mucuna seemed to give me better results than just DLPA alone. Now I don't feel like I need the mucuna as much. I like Soloray's Dopabean product because it has 15% catecholamines.

What dose are you taking? Do you know whether the D form in excessive doses is harmful for the liver (Perhaps it worse then the L form in that regard)? Apparently DL-phenylalanine do occurs naturally in weary small quantities in stored food.