53 replies to this topic

[dprice218]

I'm not sure how much sulbutiamine has been discussed in these forums, but it's the active ingredient (apparently) in Biotest's Spike. In any event, for anyone who is interested there is some research indicating it has some use as a nootropic.

    Chronic administration of sulbutiamine improves long term memory formation in mice: possible cholinergic mediation.

        * Micheau J,
        * Durkin TP,
        * Destrade C,
        * Rolland Y,
        * Jaffard R.

    Thiamine deficiency in both man and animals is known to produce memory dysfunction and cognitive disorders which have been related to an impairment of cholinergic activity. The present experiment was aimed at testing whether, inversely, chronic administration of large doses of sulbutiamine would have a facilitative effect on memory and would induce changes in central cholinergic activity. Accordingly mice received 300 mg/kg of sulbutiamine daily for 10 days. They were then submitted to an appetitive operant level press conditioning test. When compared to control subjects, sulbutiamine treated mice learned the task at the same rate in a single session but showed greatly improved performance when tested 24 hr after partial acquisition of the same task. Parallel neurochemical investigations showed that the treatment induced a slight (+ 10%) but significant increase in hippocampal sodium-dependent high affinity choline uptake. The present findings and previous results suggest that sulbutiamine improves memory formation and that this behavioral effect could be mediated by an increase in hippocampal cholinergic activity.

    PMID: 4059305 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Another rat study, this one indicating its (possible) psychopharmacological mode of action:

Title:  Evidence for a modulatory effect of sulbutiamine on glutamatergic and dopaminergic cortical transmissions in the rat brain.
Author: Trovero, F : Gobbi, M : Weil Fuggaza, J : Besson, M J : Brochet, D : Pirot, S
Citation: Neurosci-Lett. 2000 Sep 29; 292(1): 49-53
Abstract: Chronic treatment of rats by sulbutiamine induced no change in density of N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) and (+/-)-alpha-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methylisoxazole-4-propionic acid receptors in the cingular cortex, but a significant decrease of the kainate binding sites, as measured by quantitative autoradiography. In the same treated animals, an increase of D1 dopaminergic (DA) binding sites was measured both in the prefrontal and the cingular cortex, while no modification of the D2 binding sites was detected. Furthermore, an acute sulbutiamine administration induced a decrease of kainate binding sites but no change of the density of D1 and D2 DA receptors. Acute sulbutiamine injection led to a decrease of the DA levels in the prefrontal cortex and 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid levels in both the cingular and the prefrontal cortex. These observations are discussed in terms of a modulatory effect of sulbutiamine on both dopaminergic and glutamatergic cortical transmissions.
Review References: None
Notes: None
Language: English
Publication Type: Journal-Article

Now, if anyone could find human studies indicating its effectiveness, then we'd be getting somewhere. I don't buy into the hype which describes it as some sort of amphetamine-like high without the nasty side effects--but at least these two studies suggest it could have an empirically verifiable effect (if not only in mice, then possibly humans as well).

[synaesthetic]

It has a nice mood and focus boost, but because it is fat soluble it seems to lose effectiveness rather quickly if not cycled.

[MP11]

I've taken it and felt nothing

[synaesthetic]

Did you take it with choline? I would take it with alpha GPC and caffeine.

[dprice218]

Did you take it with choline? I would take it with alpha GPC and caffeine.

Yeah I noticed it made its exit rather fast, I def felt something though.

[daimewaku]

I just bought some and took it for the fist time today. GAWD DANG! In my experience it was far more powerful than modafinil. Also where modafinil put me in a state where I was less creative, sulbutiamine was quite the opposite. Only took one 300mg capsule. [thumb] [thumb]

[Ghostrider]

I don't mean to resurrect an older thread, but has anyone else had luck with this? Currently, I only supplement with OrthoCore, but I have heard a lot of strong reviews on this supplement and I was thinking of trying a small amount. What period does it need to by cycled on? Weekly, monthly?

[brotherx]

Good experiences here as well - mental clarity and focus!
But make sure that you take not too much - because otherwise it could give you some nice headaches ;-)

Cheers

Alex

I don't mean to resurrect an older thread, but has anyone else had luck with this?  Currently, I only supplement with OrthoCore, but I have heard a lot of strong reviews on this supplement and I was thinking of trying a small amount.  What period does it need to by cycled on?  Weekly, monthly?

[modelcadet]

I've taken Spike, and I liked it. Haven't tried Modafinil.

[beefytaco]

A great boost- but as noted, it loses its effectiveness without cycling and I get terrible headaches when I take too much. Right now, I only take Sulbutiamine when I know that I have a busy day and need the lift - but no more than 2x/week.

[Ghostrider]

Humm...it's cheap and I am tempted to try it...is there anything unhealthy about it? Looks like it might be a better substitute for caffeine.

[jackinbox]

It has a nice mood and focus boost, but because it is fat soluble it seems to lose effectiveness rather quickly if not cycled.

Why a fat solube substance would loose his effectiveness? Are you sure of that? Any source?

[quicksilver]

Pure Sulbutiamine at 1,200 mg with food worked great for mental/physical energy for about 6 hours.

[brotherx]

1,200mg ? Wow, sounds like getting an intense headache for me ;-)

Pure Sulbutiamine at 1,200 mg with food worked great for mental/physical energy for about 6 hours.

[aero]

I have experimented with Spike over the last 6 months. I have tried varying doses from 2 Spikes (empty stomach in AM) -> good if extremely exhausted and sleep deprived. A kick which lasts 90mins with noticeable focus up to 6 hours later. This definitely fires up adrenaline around the body in a way similar to ECA.

I have then supplemented with 1 Spike (empty stomach AM) and 1 Spike (before Lunch).... while it gives good energy/strength, tunes the body and mind into the job at task, I found that I lost my creative edge and humour. It made me serious. I have since used it occasionally for workouts and believe thats where its true benefits lie. It gives me too much physical energy to sit down and read or study. In my experience the crash is mild and similar to caffeine. I can see why cyclist swear by Spike.

[brotherx]

Aero,

do you think that you can attribute the loss of humor and creativity to Sulbutiamine?

@all Has anyone else experienced this as well?
Cheers Alex

I have experimented with Spike over the last 6 months.  I have tried varying doses from 2 Spikes (empty stomach in AM) -> good if extremely exhausted and sleep deprived.  A kick which lasts 90mins with noticeable focus up to 6 hours later.  This definitely fires up adrenaline around the body in a way similar to ECA.

I have then supplemented with 1 Spike (empty stomach AM) and 1 Spike (before Lunch).... while it gives good energy/strength, tunes the body and mind into the job at task, I found that I lost my creative edge and humour.  It made me serious.  I have since used it occasionally for workouts and believe thats where its true benefits lie.  It gives me too much physical energy to sit down and read or study.  In my experience the crash is mild and similar to caffeine.  I can see why cyclist swear by Spike.

[bran319]

I have extensive experience with Spike and sulbutiamine and can positively say that my experience mirrors aero's. Great for strength, focus and endurance but I sacrifice some agility and free association abilities in my mind in return. I no longer use it.

[brotherx]

Bran,

that's interesting. What was your typical Sulbutiamine doses?

Cheers Alex

I have extensive experience with Spike and sulbutiamine and can positively say that my experience mirrors aero's. Great for strength, focus and endurance but I sacrifice some agility and free association abilities in my mind in return. I no longer use it.

[aero]

Alex, yep I can pin point the lack of creativity to Sulbutiamine. I have been interested in nutrition / supplements for the last 5-6 years and have developed a strong sense of what does what. In addition it was taken in a work environment where everything is amplified, I am under pressure and feel when something isnt working in my favour. Years ago I was taking supplements for many months on end and not realising the negative effects they were having on me: I'd blame it on my mind or thoughts. This was different, I was doing the same tasks with different outcomes. I would recommend SPIKE / Sulbutiamine for Martial Arts / Cycling / Competitive Sports or even Debates / Arguments where clear cut focus is necessary. The effects diminish within 6-8 hrs, so dont worry about losing your creative edge.

[Ghostrider]

Tried it, felt nothing, seems to be a dud.

[bran319]

Alex,

A typical dose was 600mgs.

cheers,
Brandon

[brotherx]

Bran, Aero,

that's an interesting observation. I haven't experienced the loss of creativity myself yet - or I am just no aware of it!
But I will take your hints into consideration and will monitor the effects closely!

Cheers Alex

Alex,

A typical dose was 600mgs.

cheers,
Brandon

[brotherx]

Below is an abract I found regarding Sulbutiamine - it's interesting even if it is not clearly related to the topic.

Psycho-behavioural inhibition is characteristic of major depressive disorder and frequently recedes after the other depressive symptoms. This may induce an important psychosocial impairment which could be a risk factor for relapse. METHODS: The aim of this eight weeks, multicentric, randomized, double blind, placebo controlled trial was to assess the efficacy and safety of sulbutiamine (Arcalion) [600 mg p.d.] on the symptoms of psycho-behavioural inhibition of inpatients with DSM III-R defined Major Depressive Episode (MDE) treated by adjusted doses of clomipramine [75 to 150 mg pd]. Moderate doses of hypnotics and anxiolytics without potential activity on the mood were authorized during the trial. The MDE was assessed with the MADRS, HAM-A and CGI scales. Patients who did not respond adequately to the antidepressant treatment were prematurely withdrawn from the trial. The three Sheehan Disability Scales (SDS), the Norris Visual Analogue Scale (VAS) and the Depressive Psychomotor Retardation Scale (ERD) were used to monitor psycho-behavioural inhibition. RESULTS: The mean intake scores were, as expected, fairly high: MADRS (32), HAMA-A (23), CGI (5) and ERD (27). The SDS and EVA scores showed that the patients felt severely handicapped in their social, professional and family life functioning as well as in their emotional, affective, cognitive and behavioural performances. At four weeks the MADRS, HAM-A and CGI scores indicated that the global improvement of the MDE was comparable in both treatment groups. However, the scores at the EVA and SDS scales showed that the patients treated with sulbutiamine were significantly less incapacitated than the placebo group in all of the various facets (affective, cognitive, emotional, behavioural) of psycho-behavioural inhibition. Furthermore, the safety data shows that both treatment groups were comparable and in particular that sulbutiamine had not induced any inappropriate behaviour, including suicide attempts, or mania. CONCLUSIONS: Sulbutiamine has no antidepressive effect but it can hasten the resorption of psycho-behavioural inhibition occurring during major depressive disorder and thereby facilitate the rehabilitation of patients in their social, professional and family life functioning.

[brotherx]

Aero,

one ingredient of the original spike is yohimbine HCl.
I personally get weird side effects from yohimbine HCl. Like loss of focus - sweating, loss of creativity.

Have you tried the pure Sulbutiame as well?

Cheers

Alex

[quote]I have experimented with Spike over the last 6 months. I have tried varying doses from 2 Spikes (empty stomach in AM) -> good if extremely exhausted and sleep deprived. A kick which lasts 90mins with noticeable focus up to 6 hours later. This definitely fires up adrenaline around the body in a way similar to ECA.

I have then supplemented with 1 Spike (empty stomach AM) and 1 Spike (before Lunch).... while it gives good energy/strength, tunes the body and mind into the job at task, I found that I lost my creative edge and humour. It made me serious. I have since used it occasionally for workouts and believe thats where its true benefits lie. It gives me too much physical energy to sit down and read or study. In my experience the crash is mild and similar to caffeine. I can see why cyclist swear by Spike.

[quicksilver]

Tried it, felt nothing, seems to be a dud.

You tried it for a day? What dose?

1,200 mg gives me a great energy boost mid day til the evening.

[Ghostrider]

300-500 mg at 125 lbs. I tried it for three days, felt nothing. Will try again later this week.

[quicksilver]

300-500 mg at 125 lbs.  I tried it for three days, felt nothing.  Will try again later this week.

I tried 300-600 mg for a few days and nothing it was at 1,200 mg at once that i noticed a pronounced effect. I'm sure it's best to try something for at least a month at varying doses before dismissing it. I'm 185lbs.

[Ghostrider]

Ok, I'll go a little higher. Actually, I ordered the powder form and I don't have a scale (had it known it was powder instead of capsule, I would have got something else). Anyway, I have been on the conservative side, but pretty sure I did at least 300. I'll go for two scoops this time.

[quicksilver]

Ok, I'll go a little higher.  Actually, I ordered the powder form and I don't have a scale (had it known it was powder instead of capsule, I would have got something else).  Anyway, I have been on the conservative side, but pretty sure I did at least 300.  I'll go for two scoops this time.

had it know? Did the website lie to you and sell you powder versus the caps you ordered?

[AaronCW]

1,200mg ? Wow, sounds like getting an intense headache for me ;-)

Pure Sulbutiamine at 1,200 mg with food worked great for mental/physical energy for about 6 hours.

Not sure if you mean that you've had this experience (or something like it), but I found that taking 600mg the first time have me something of a pressure-headache. I find that 300mg once or twice a day is ideal for me, though I've heard positive accounts for higher doses.