53 replies to this topic

[quicksilver]

1,200mg ? Wow, sounds like getting an intense headache for me ;-)

Pure Sulbutiamine at 1,200 mg with food worked great for mental/physical energy for about 6 hours.

Not sure if you mean that you've had this experience (or something like it), but I found that taking 600mg the first time have me something of a pressure-headache. I find that 300mg once or twice a day is ideal for me, though I've heard positive accounts for higher doses.

What do you feel at 300 mg?

[AaronCW]

Sustained energy is the best way to describe it. Seems to keep me mentally alert, and I've noticed that it gives me an endurance boost on my daily (bicycle) commute!

[quicksilver]

Sustained energy is the best way to describe it. Seems to keep me mentally alert, and I've noticed that it gives me an endurance boost on my daily (bicycle) commute!

So no cognitive effects? Just energy?

[Ghostrider]

No, it actually was powder that I ordered, I ordered the smallest quantity that I could find to evaluate, ordered through Unique Nutrition. Since I don't have a scale, I don't know how much I actually got, but 1/8th of a teaspoon is supposed to be 300 grams, I took about 4 times that and felt absolutely nothing, no headache, no negative or positive effects.

[Jacovis]

Alex,  yep I can pin point the lack of creativity to Sulbutiamine.  I have been interested in nutrition / supplements for the last 5-6 years and have developed a strong sense of what does what.  In addition it was taken in a work environment where everything is amplified, I am under pressure and feel when something isnt working in my favour.  Years ago I was taking supplements for many months on end and not realising the negative effects they were having on me:  I'd blame it on my mind or thoughts.  This was different, I was doing the same tasks with different outcomes.  I would recommend SPIKE / Sulbutiamine for Martial Arts / Cycling / Competitive Sports or even Debates / Arguments where clear cut focus is necessary.  The effects diminish within 6-8 hrs, so dont worry about losing your creative edge.

Thanks aero, that is interesting info. I have never taken Sulbutiamine though I have used megadoses of Thiamine (Vitamin B1) at 300 mgs or more at a time for the best part of three years now as an essential part of my nootropic stack.

I am also very sensitive to the effects of different substances and with the Thiamine megadoses I do find my sense of humour and even speech impaired slightly. Now I am not the most extroverted person to begin with but the Thiamine megadoses make me more 'introverted' and kind of feeling aggressive/depressed after a few hours. After experimenting with a number of substances, I found that some L-Carnosine (even only 150-200 mg at a time) definitely helps with somewhat counterring these side effects without negatively impacting on the Thiamine effects. L-Carnosine has been used for Autism and improves speech in some people. Not to mention that, as a really cool bonus, high-dose Thiamine and L-Carnosine together are a damn fine AGE-inhibiting combo from my research!

On the other hand, the reason why I have taken the Thiamine megadoses despite the side effects (introversion, slightly impaired speech, less sense of humour) for so long are as follows. It works like nothing else I have tried for increasing my attention span during reading and also at increasing general mental energy levels. Plus I do notice gains in powering through chores/boring tasks, higher levels of wakefulness (especially noticeable during the 'after lunch slump' period), and improvement in physical endurance as a nice bonus. It has probably helped my ADD symptoms of poor reading attention span and low motivation on 'boring tasks' more than any other supplement I have ever tried. I mean I can't stress enough the difference it has made to my reading attention span - I can sit and read a book for hours when on Thiamine and take in every word/not skip anything.

I don't get any tolerance at all from the Thiamine megadoses - I have used like 300 mg twice per day (with other supplements like a B100 complex) for 3 months continuously and get the same result on the last day as the first pretty much.

Edited by visionary7903, 28 September 2007 - 02:25 PM.

[quicksilver]

No, it actually was powder that I ordered, I ordered the smallest quantity that I could find to evaluate, ordered through Unique Nutrition.  Since I don't have a scale, I don't know how much I actually got, but 1/8th of a teaspoon is supposed to be 300 grams, I took about 4 times that and felt absolutely nothing, no headache, no negative or positive effects.

Ok so your dose was too low. I would try 1200 to 2000 mg at once.

[brotherx]

Are you serious?
Have you ever tried 2000mg at once yourself?

I had a huge presentation today - was tired - took 300mg of sulbutiamine - and I was definitely more alert - and the communication skills were razor sharp.
But I am sure - 600 mg - or 900mg would have been an absolute urge overkill!

Best regards

Alex

No, it actually was powder that I ordered, I ordered the smallest quantity that I could find to evaluate, ordered through Unique Nutrition.  Since I don't have a scale, I don't know how much I actually got, but 1/8th of a teaspoon is supposed to be 300 grams, I took about 4 times that and felt absolutely nothing, no headache, no negative or positive effects.

Ok so your dose was too low. I would try 1200 to 2000 mg at once.

[Mishael]

This was a really good thread too bad it ended.

[Justchill]

Bump, so is this nootropic dangerous? Are there any health risks?

cheers

Maybe interesting as an amp - alternative for parties?

[noos]

I don´t understand why if sulbutiamine is liposoluble people take it on an empty stomach.

The usual dosage of arcalion in adult is 2 tablets per day, taken in one dose at breakfast.
http://www.serdiapha...ion_summary.asp

[JChief]

I have found the effective dose for most people to be right between the 800mg-900mg mark. Not something you want to take daily.


Sulbutiamine:

Sulbutiamine is a synthetic derivative of thiamine (vitamin B1). Sulbutiamine is a lipophilic molecule that crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily than thiamine. Its metabolism in the brain leads to an increase in the levels of thiamine and thiamine phosphate esters. While the exact mechanism of action of sulbutiamine is unknown, it is thought to occur through the upregulation of the reticular activating system, which is the center of arousal and motivation in the brain.The administration of sulbutiamine potentiates cholinergic activity in the hippocampus.It also potentiates glutamatergic activity in the prefrontal cortex through a reduction in the density of kainate glutamate receptors, which may occur in response to a modulation of intrasynaptic glutamate.The facilitation of central glutamatergic transmission is a likely explanation for the ability of sulbutiamine to improve memory. In addition to its action on cholinergic and glutamatergic transmission, the administration of sulbutiamine reduces the release of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, which increases the density of D1 dopamine receptors through a compensatory mechanism. The modulation of dopaminergic transmission may also contribute to the ability of sulbutiamine to improve memory. A possible explanation for the pharmacodynamics of sulbutiamine is the increased availability of thiamine triphosphate (ThTP). Although the full physiological role of ThTP is unknown, it is an integral component of synpatosomal membranes, participates in the phosphorylation of proteins,and activates chloride channels that have a large unit conductance.The activation of chloride channels by ThTP may be involved in the modulation of receptor binding. Several studies have shown that sulbutiamine improves memory through the potentiation of cholinergic, dopaminergic, and glutamatergic transmission. In addition to its use as a treatment for chronic fatigue, sulbutiamine also appears to improve memory and erectile dysfunction. It is available for over-the-counter sale as a nutritional supplement.

Edited by JChief, 29 October 2011 - 05:51 PM.

[noos]

I have found the effective dose for most people to be right between the 800mg-900mg mark. Not something you want to take daily.

That is because you want an acute effect. It takes time at regular dose.

[QuantumTubule]

Hey
Just a suggestion for those who respond to Sul. I understand that Thaimine is essential for pyruvate metabolism(dehydrogenase?) that allows transport into the mitochondria. Therefore Sul increase the admission of Pyruvate to the Mitochondria in the brain far more effectly than other B1 vitamins due to lipophicity, this increases cellular energy and hence cognition.
I also remember that this modification of pyruvate is strongly inhibited by Arsenic and therefore one may conclude that responders to sul maybe suffering from arsenic posioning. Arsenic maybe the heavy metal that causes the most harm in our society.
Sorry this is all from old memories. This thread isnt the place for discussion Arsenic toxicity, stick to sul.

[JChief]

I have found the effective dose for most people to be right between the 800mg-900mg mark. Not something you want to take daily.

That is because you want an acute effect. It takes time at regular dose.

What effects do you notice and at what dose? Just curious. I've been taking it for several months now - usually no more than 3 times per week. But at 900mg it works every time, no headache ever from it, mood boost, sharpens the wit, gives me a nice level of focus and combined with the mood lift it therefore increases motivation. Personally, I am thrilled with the results. But at 600mg or less it's almost nothing. 300mg doesn't seem to do anything for me either. I haven't stuck with over a longer period of time at lower doses though.

Edited by JChief, 08 November 2011 - 01:45 PM.

[noos]

I have found the effective dose for most people to be right between the 800mg-900mg mark. Not something you want to take daily.

That is because you want an acute effect. It takes time at regular dose.

What effects do you notice and at what dose? Just curious. I've been taking it for several months now - usually no more than 3 times per week. But at 900mg it works every time, no headache ever from it, mood boost, sharpens the wit, gives me a nice level of focus and combined with the mood lift it therefore increases motivation. Personally, I am thrilled with the results. But at 600mg or less it's almost nothing. 300mg doesn't seem to do anything for me either. I haven't stuck with over a longer period of time at lower doses though.

I have taken two 200 mg tablets of original Servier product for a week. Effects similar to yours, maybe less strong. Possible some tension.

Edited by noos, 08 November 2011 - 07:46 PM.

[noos]

Thanks aero, that is interesting info. I have never taken Sulbutiamine though I have used megadoses of Thiamine (Vitamin B1) at 300 mgs or more at a time for the best part of three years now as an essential part of my nootropic stack.

I am also very sensitive to the effects of different substances and with the Thiamine megadoses I do find my sense of humour and even speech impaired slightly. Now I am not the most extroverted person to begin with but the Thiamine megadoses make me more 'introverted' and kind of feeling aggressive/depressed after a few hours.
After experimenting with a number of substances, I found that some L- (even only 150-200 mg at a time) definitely helps with somewhat counterring these side effects without negatively impacting on the Thiamine effects.

Have you noticed the same from sulbutiamine? I don´t want to feel this from sulbu.
I don´t have carnosine.

[noos]

The packet insert reads:
Duration of treatment: limited to 4 weeks.
Anyone read any similar recommendation?

http://www.obatinfo....calion-200.html

Edited by noos, 08 November 2011 - 11:51 PM.

[noos]

I can´t edit #45 Side effects: tension, increased obsessiveness?

[noos]

And I can´t edit the last one either.

Side effects: tension, increased obsessiveness?, more tinnitus like with other stimulants.

[JChief]

Thanks aero, that is interesting info. I have never taken Sulbutiamine though I have used megadoses of Thiamine (Vitamin B1) at 300 mgs or more at a time for the best part of three years now as an essential part of my nootropic stack.

I am also very sensitive to the effects of different substances and with the Thiamine megadoses I do find my sense of humour and even speech impaired slightly. Now I am not the most extroverted person to begin with but the Thiamine megadoses make me more 'introverted' and kind of feeling aggressive/depressed after a few hours.
After experimenting with a number of substances, I found that some L- (even only 150-200 mg at a time) definitely helps with somewhat counterring these side effects without negatively impacting on the Thiamine effects.

Have you noticed the same from sulbutiamine? I don´t want to feel this from sulbu.
I don´t have carnosine.

It has the exact opposite for me. Sulbutiamine encourages that sense of humor and keeps me clever Ha! Speech isn't even close to being impaired. If anything, sulbu (combined with racetams anyway) improves my speech as a whole.

[noos]

Today I felt bad, I am not sure if it was due to sulbutiamine increasing anxiety.

[noos]

This is a complicated substance. I took only 200 mg today. Maybe it is the coffee but I don´t feel well now.

Edited by noos, 12 November 2011 - 12:22 AM.

[JChief]

This is a complicated substance. I took only 200 mg today. Maybe it is the coffee but I don´t feel well now.

A buddy of mine took some with milk and barfed it all up. Just take it with something sweet and you should be fine. Coffee is rather harsh and taking sulbu with it seems bold. I do like my coffee bold but that's another matter. Also, sulbutiamine doesn't make me anxious in the slightest. Also, 200mg of the stuff won't provide any of the effects that make it useful so if that causes issues then you might just eliminate it completely. It's normally well tolerated so maybe it's just a coincidence. Be well.

Edited by JChief, 12 November 2011 - 07:22 PM.

[noos]

I take coated tablets so stomach is not a problem but anxiety and tension. The effect of sulbutiamine builds after some days and I think caffeine has to be taken in moderation or almost avoided.