187 replies to this topic

[pycnogenol]

things that DO NOT work well -> 5-htp (gives you increased insomnia after the first few days), Melatonin (crazy mental fog, bad mood, anger - testosterone increase,etc)

I take melatonin nightly (300 micrograms) and occasionally 5-HTP (50 mg) I've never had any of those
side effects you've mentioned. The only side effect I've experienced is weird, vivid dreams from the
5-HTP but not every time I use it. Bottom line: both melatonin and 5-HTP work well for me.

[sleeponit]

HEY LOSERS!! Actually you're not losers, and I actually care about you guys, so much so that I wanted to get your attention so you read my post, so that I can help you. Hey, it worked right?

Anyway, I have a LOT of NEW INFORMATION to share since my last post and a lot of personal experience that I hope will be valuable to a lot of you and make a difference in your lives when it comes to sleep.

Like any conscientious soul, I tried everything below myself first so I can know what the f**k I'm talking about and provide this information with a modicum of conviction.

My current sleep supps = "HaM & eGgs & T" , well, that's what I call it. It's actually HTP, Ativan (I do not recommend Ativan because it's a benzo and they are somewhat addictive over time and you build up tolerance etc)...but everything else in this post is a strong recommend, Melatonin and the "eGGs" is "GABA". Double "G" on eggs since GABA made a huge difference. I researched extensively and read a lot of positives about GABA, but my first 2 experiences were nightmarish. So I hung in there, and following many of your recommendations added Melatonin. HTP 100mg tab twice a day does TWO things: taken in AM, it makes you markedly less irritable all day (you're a much kinder, happier person...and it improves your life and business consequently)...and taken just before bed, it improves sleep overall quality (sorry, I'm a little nebulous on this one) and if you suffer from nightmares, you won't have any more. Dreams are much more "thoughtful"...interesting, not sure why.

So I was doing ok on HTP with Ativan 1mg, but struggling with frequent awakenings (noises would easily wake me up) and woke up tired all the time. So, basically I added GABA and Melatonin. Now my sleep is DEEPER and I wake up more refreshed.

Also, interestingly, you know when you're on nights for several weeks (any of you on swing shifts or graveyard shifts?) you start to get slightly disoriented (feel like sh*t) after a week or two? Well, the reason (makes sense) is lack of light. I know, I know "so obvious". But I'm a night owl/nightshift person and I struggled with this issue for YEARS. I was always waking up poorly rested and going thru each day in a daze/fog. I felt disconnected and just whack. Adding Melatonin (in addition to the sleep benefits) just makes me feel "normal" again. So I wanted to give a STRONG recommend to Melatonin. HOWEVER, the trick for me (an avg lean male) was HALF the usual store-bought tab (.3mg), so half is .15mg. Just break it half in other words. Otherwise, you get that daytime grogginess. At half tab, sleep is "just right".

Interestingly, after adding GABA to my HAM and eGGs regimen, I'm getting better quality sleep and waking up more rested (body not always feeling like falling apart) but just as cool....I'm wasting less time in bed (instead of the previous "9h" that I used to need, now I wake up feeling way better at only 5-6h).

Finally, as mentioned previously, one more cool trick I do: For those of you who wake up (to pee or whatever in the middle of night) but have trouble falling back asleep or toss & turn for the remainder of the night, TRY this: one 90mg L-Theanine(I happen to use Suntheanine brand, but whatever works for you) gets me back to sleep EASILY, and, like Gilligan's island, I get "a three hour snooze (cruise)". L-Theanine is the "T" of "HAM & eGGs & T" (T also helps you remember "Tea", but I didn't write tea, because I don't want you drinking Tea, I just want you to remember that L-Theanine is extracted from green "Tea". Sufficiently confused?

Oops, one more thing: Importantly, I also take L-Theanine (very safe by the way) when I wake up as well because it helps you keep your focus (which is critical in adding value to whatever your work is). Translation: you get a lot more work done in the same amount of time if your work requires intense concentration or focus. Awesome supplement for that. Remember, L-Theanine is responsible for counteracting the stimulatory properties of the caffeine in tea (green tea) and inducing the production of alpha brain waves which create a state of deep relaxation and alertness. Because of this, some people actually recommend taking it just before sleep ...but I don't like that...I want to turn OFF my brain for sleep...however, it IS good just before sleep if you're "overtired" (like you were supposed to go to bed 5 h ago! (example only). Anyway, I take it twice a day like I said: mid-sleep if I have to get up (since I usually have trouble falling back asleep once physically up), and then again around lunchtime when I start my work (focus)

***NOTE--I added all my L-Theanine online research clips (screenshots) here. Haven't used this tool yet, so will try it out. I attached them as a zip. Unzip the attachment and you'll see a bunch of screenshots with all the key information you'll want to know on L-Theanine. If the attachment doesn't take, I'll add it in a post immediately after this one.***

My one hope is that these tricks and experiences, combined with all my underlying medical knowledge, will help a LOT of people who find this post because I haven't seen all of this information in any one place yet. This may save you hundreds of hours or different headaches/hassles experimenting. But, still, everyone's body is different, and never add more than 1 thing at once (otherwise, you won't know what did what).

My prescription for sleep for your guys, ultimately is this:

(FIRST thru FIFTH are basic sleep hygeine stuff medical doctors know but I don't think are shared enough):

FIRST: Exercise a little bit every day
SECOND: Don't eat a lot of carbs or fat (of course)
THIRD: Stop all your caffeine (yeah even the soda and that "only 1 or 2 cups of coffee a day")
FOURTH Don't exercise or get too much stimulation immediately before sleep (translation: don't get in a big, bad argument right before sleep). The obvious exception to avoiding exercise/over stim before bed is...well...sex which is always conducive to rapid sleep onset)
FIFTH: Ensure your bedroom is quiet/dark/comfortable temp before lying down (one of the hygeine tips)

Here's a cool page from the American Sleep Association that offers other "Sleep Hygenine Tips" that most people really don't know or think about. Together, it's a nice list that will teach everyone at least one thing I think: http://www.sleepasso...leephygienetips .

SIXTH: After trying these first five items and you're still suffering from insomnia or poor sleep quality, consider introducing things like what-I-call "HAM & eGgs" (this post) & L-Theanine one item at a time slowly, preferably several nights apart, so that you know what's doing what, if anything.

Good luck to all and hope to make a difference in your lives.

Attached Files

•  L-Theanine.zip   398.73KB   47 downloads

Edited by sleeponit, 06 September 2011 - 10:00 AM.

[stillwater]

Good suggestions, mostly on basic sleep hygiene that everyone should know. The thing I've found after 20 years of messing around with stuff to help with chronic insomnia in the form of frequent awakenings is that it's all highly subjective. You never really know what will work till you try it yourself, and in turn what does end up working for you might not work for the next person.

I react paradoxically to a lot of things. Theanine for instance makes me feel agitated and on edge and destroys my sleep. Gaba works for me in spaced out intermittent dosages, it loses effect if taken more than two nights in a row and makes me feel a bit irritable the next day. I absolutely despise 5-htp and gave it a million chances, but it always felt like I've taken some kind of ridiculous poison, but I've used l-tryptophan by prescription for 15 years and love it, but again I know it needs to be drastically staggered to keep working.

I've tried pretty much everything (herbal or drug) and the only thing I can consistently count on to provide a deep long sleep with minimal side effects is good old cheap generic Periactin (cyproheptadine), I only use it once or twice a week but it works when I have the time to catch up on sleep debt. Again this is what works for me after two decades of trial and error and two rounds of sleep overs at the sleep disorder clinic. I guess there is quite a variance in all our chemistries and genetics, it's worth it to keep trying until something works or even half works.

Edited by stillwater, 07 September 2011 - 12:04 AM.

[August59]

I take Xyrem and have so on three different occasions. One thing that I noticed is if you are in a very stressesful period it can cause severe anxiety the following day. Could be high levels of norepnepherine levels or a dopamine storm or something, but I never had anxiety to hardly any extent because I'm just a layed back person, but this time around I have had panic attacks which I have never had before and anxiety spells are very frequent, but I am going through divorce after 22 years. It is really kind of weird.

My neurologist has never heard of this happenining, but pharmacist (since it is only distributed from one source) says several cases had been reported, but they have no idea what is causing it. Stopping for to or three days will stop it, but it will return after taking for 4 or 5 days. Light doses of xanax works well, but a low dose (.5mg) of Klonopin seems to work better.

[Banjemin]

Again, this is a very old topic, but the more information, the more useful the thread:

I'd had persistent issues falling asleep for perhaps 6 months. Had previously been on an antidepressant but am trying to avoid SSRIs due to side effects. With that in mind I tried the following combination:

In morning (5-HTP too late in day seems to inhibit sleep for me):

100mg 5-HTP
20mg vit B6
500mg DL-phenylalanine
500mg Tyrosine
100mg Theanine
50mg Calcium

Once, later in day:

500mg DL-phenylalanine
100mg Theanine

After a few weeks, falling asleep is now effortless and usually occurs within 15 minutes. (Note that I don't have a set bedtime - I only go to bed when feeling sleepy, which is much easier on these supplements).

Also, sleep architecture has changed. Not sure about deep sleep but I don't wake up in the night, sleep very soundly, and seem to have REM usually just prior to waking. Adding about 20mg of vitamin B6 with the DLPA and Theanine about an hour before bed seems to increase the vividness of dreams in REM.

Edited by epa, 02 December 2011 - 06:13 AM.

[Justchill]

I take Xyrem and have so on three different occasions. One thing that I noticed is if you are in a very stressesful period it can cause severe anxiety the following day. Could be high levels of norepnepherine levels or a dopamine storm or something, but I never had anxiety to hardly any extent because I'm just a layed back person, but this time around I have had panic attacks which I have never had before and anxiety spells are very frequent, but I am going through divorce after 22 years. It is really kind of weird.

My neurologist has never heard of this happenining, but pharmacist (since it is only distributed from one source) says several cases had been reported, but they have no idea what is causing it. Stopping for to or three days will stop it, but it will return after taking for 4 or 5 days. Light doses of xanax works well, but a low dose (.5mg) of Klonopin seems to work better.

Be carefull, Xyrem = GHB, it is also a party drug.
It can cause nasty withdrawal effects..

[Want_more_hair]

I find 5 grams of taurine to be a blessing for sleep induction. Exercise, especially cardiovascular, helps a ton too.

[JvA]

Here is my anecdotal experience with sleep aids:

Agomelatine
I haven't slept so good in my entire life. Worked like magic and really helped the the getting to sleep phase, sleeping through the night and waking up refreshed. Stopped working as soon I started using Ritalin during the day. Doubling the Agomelatine dosage at night didn't help. So for you people not using any stims except caffeine, this drug might really be helpful.

Mirtazapine
Made me sleepy all right. Also made me sleep much better. The problem was when I woke up after 9 hours and kept feeling I easily could sleep for another 8. Really made it harder to get up in the morning but improved me overall mood. Also made me seriously think about investing in a donut factory. Be warned! This drug might initially seriously increase your appetite. For most people it wears of within some weeks or with an increase of dosage.

Inositol
Very dose dependent. About 1/16 to 1/8 table spoon of pure powder made me really sleepy. At other times it has made me get an headache. I've read of some people reporting getting aggressive, but I've only felt that 1-2 times when I've taken perhaps 1/6 of a table spoon.

L-Theanine
Makes me drowsy but doesn't really help getting to sleep. Just helps you relax.

Melatonin
The mildest of them all. Works best if I take it 1-2 hours before I need to get to sleep, but don't knock you out like Inositol, Agomelatine and Mirtazapine. Strong anti-oxidant and seems to make my sleep more qualitative.

[hooter]

Also, is there any substance that totally supresses REM sleep, i'm sure alot of you dont agree but i tend to think thats a good thing:)

What you think is irrelevant, lacking REM sleep can lead to serious brain damage and early death.

[BarrelBoy]

A few things I don't think anyone mentioned:

- your sleep environment should be as dark as possible (eye masks are a good alternative otherwise)

- your mattress is important (different individuals have different needs but hammocks are touted as the best for your back and they keep you from rolling around - similar to a womb)

- i've read the ideal position is lying on one's side (similar to how your body would be standing up straight with arms at side - a body pillow is good for this if you don't sleep with a partner or you don't cuddle with he/she)

- only being in bed for sleep (associating your bed with reading and the like can alter your body's readiness for sleep)

- consistent sleep schedule (more than 30min difference can throw you off)

- rising with the sun (keeping your biorhythm in tune + increased sun availability during waking hours)

- small glass of red wine or warm milk (works well if you wake up in the middle of your sleep too)

- stop reading/tv/music or otherwise intensive activities and hour before you plan on sleeping (i've read one should avoid eating or drinking during this hour too - basically just calm yourself down and relax)

- standing up as opposed to sitting at a chair/ standing on one leg as opposed to standing on two = more physical exertion, thus better sleep on average

- while it's often a great time for free association and creative thought/reflection on the day's events, avoid thinking about stressful or exciting things leading up to sleep - plan on thinking/working them out the next day or some other time

Edited by brokenyoga, 24 July 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[wolfeye]

Anyone tried Green Tea Extract (98% Polyphenol) for sleep enhancement?

Anxiolytic properties of green tea polyphenol (-)-epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG).

Naturally occurring polyphenols are potent antioxidants. Some of these compounds are also ligands for the GABA(A) receptor benzodiazepine site. This feature endows them with sedative properties. Here, the anxiolytic activity of the green tea polyphenol (-)-epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) was investigated after acute administration in mice, using behavioral tests (elevated plus-maze and passive avoidance tests) and by electrophysiology on cultured hippocampal neurons. Patch-clamp experiments revealed that EGCG (1-10 muM) had no effect on GABA currents. However, EGCG reversed GABA(A) receptor negative modulator methyl beta-carboline-3-carboxylate (beta-CCM) inhibition on GABA currents in a concentration dependent manner. This was also observed at the level of synaptic GABA(A) receptors by recording spontaneous inhibitory synaptic transmission. In addition, EGCG consistently inhibited spontaneous excitatory synaptic transmission. Behavioral tests indicated that EGCG exerted both anxiolytic and amnesic effects just like the benzodiazepine drug, chlordiazepoxide. Indeed, EGCG in a dose-dependent manner both increased the time spent in open arms of the plus-maze and decreased the step-down latency in the passive avoidance test. GABA(A) negative modulator beta-CCM antagonized EGCG-induced amnesia. Finally, state-dependent learning was observable after chlordiazepoxide and EGCG administration using a modified passive avoidance procedure. Optimal retention was observed only when animals were trained and tested in the same state (veh-veh or drug-drug) and significant retrieval alteration was observed in different states (veh-drug or drug-veh). Moreover, EGCG and chlordiazepoxide fully generalized in substitution studies, indicating that they induced indistinguishable chemical states for the brain. Therefore, our data support that EGCG can induce anxiolytic activity which could result from an interaction with GABA(A) receptors.

PMID: 16859659


(-)-Epigallocatechin gallate attenuates acute stress responses through GABAergic system in the brain.

(-)-Epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), a flavonoid, is the principal catechin found in green tea and is distributed in the brain after tea consumption. The aim of the present study was to investigate the effects of EGCG in the chick brain under an acute stressful condition and to clarify the mechanism by which EGCG attenuates stress behavior with special reference to gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). Intracerebroventricular (i.c.v.) injection of EGCG (50, 100 and 200 microg) suppressed the vocalization which normally occurs during social separation stress. EGCG decreased the time spent in active wakefulness and induced sleep-like behavior in a dose-dependent manner. Additionally, i.c.v. injection of EGCG attenuated plasma corticosterone release under social separation stress. These effects of EGCG on distress-induced vocalization were significantly attenuated by the GABAA receptor antagonist picrotoxin but not by the GABAB receptor antagonist CGP 54626 (3-N-(1-(3,4-dichlorophenyl)ethylamino)-2-hydroxypropyl cyclohexylmethyl phosphinic acid hydrochloride). These results indicate that EGCG has sedative and hypnotic effects in the brain, partially through GABAA receptors, and consequently moderates an acute stress response.

PMID: 16457806

Edited by wolfeye, 24 July 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[tintinet]

I don't know that I've ever tried 98% polyphenol GTE, but some NSI GTE I had gave me severe anxiety.

[avirot]

Hi,
I'm looking for a supplement that helps to maintain continuous sleep. I take anti psychotic for that and desperate to replace it.

[MachineGhostX]

Have you tried melatonin?

[curious_sle]

I can vote for Mirtazapine. I split the 7.5mg into 3 to 4 parts and add some melatonine to it. Mostly works quite well. (I had to take it due to major depression and now i use this tiny amount).

[whoknows]

3-4g of taurine knock me out cold. I think I might be deficient or lack in one or more neurotransmitters.

as far as i know taurine increases the effect of gaba. but plain old gaba works better then taurin for me

well the thing that works best, is go out jogging. i know its hard and sometimes not possible. but if you still have time left and you know u will not be able to sleep. go out jogging. you can even take some coffein, after one hour of jogging it doenst mater you will sleep like a baby.
but its time consuming....

Edited by whoknows, 14 November 2012 - 10:01 AM.

[Justchill]

Does anybody know a healthy supplement that calms you and make you think/worry less while you're in bed trying to sleep?

Please advise.

[medievil]

I take Xyrem and have so on three different occasions. One thing that I noticed is if you are in a very stressesful period it can cause severe anxiety the following day. Could be high levels of norepnepherine levels or a dopamine storm or something, but I never had anxiety to hardly any extent because I'm just a layed back person, but this time around I have had panic attacks which I have never had before and anxiety spells are very frequent, but I am going through divorce after 22 years. It is really kind of weird.

My neurologist has never heard of this happenining, but pharmacist (since it is only distributed from one source) says several cases had been reported, but they have no idea what is causing it. Stopping for to or three days will stop it, but it will return after taking for 4 or 5 days. Light doses of xanax works well, but a low dose (.5mg) of Klonopin seems to work better.

Be carefull, Xyrem = GHB, it is also a party drug.
It can cause nasty withdrawal effects..

When taken as prescribed it completely lacks withdrawals.

[August59]

I take Xyrem and have so on three different occasions. One thing that I noticed is if you are in a very stressesful period it can cause severe anxiety the following day. Could be high levels of norepnepherine levels or a dopamine storm or something, but I never had anxiety to hardly any extent because I'm just a layed back person, but this time around I have had panic attacks which I have never had before and anxiety spells are very frequent, but I am going through divorce after 22 years. It is really kind of weird.

My neurologist has never heard of this happenining, but pharmacist (since it is only distributed from one source) says several cases had been reported, but they have no idea what is causing it. Stopping for to or three days will stop it, but it will return after taking for 4 or 5 days. Light doses of xanax works well, but a low dose (.5mg) of Klonopin seems to work better.

Be carefull, Xyrem = GHB, it is also a party drug.
It can cause nasty withdrawal effects..

When taken as prescribed it completely lacks withdrawals.

This is the third time I have taken it and the other two times were for about a year and I did have any trouble tapering down over two weeks without having any withdrawals. The dosages taken with Xyrem are somewhat less than the party dosage. The biggest problem I had with Xyrem was making sure to drink plenty of fluids and some added potassium to keep in sync wih the high level of sodium.

I have taken Klonopin twice for about 6 months one time and for about a year the 2nd time, but with a slow taper over about 4 - 6 weeks I had no problems. My dosage was .5 mg in the morning and either 1mg or 1.5mg at bedtime

[machete234]

Be carefull, Xyrem = GHB, it is also a party drug.
It can cause nasty withdrawal effects..

It has a very short half life so its less addictive than phenibut but you will need two doses a night for 8h of very deep sleep and thats not very practical.

And also nothing to take every night if you dont have to because of narcolepsy etc.
Its better used in a hedonistic way and not as a sleep aid.


Right now ashwaganda and melatonin works very well for me no need for stronger drugs at the moment.

Edited by machete234, 28 December 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[Pirate]

I've been wearing a zeo sleep manager to bed the past week, and it seems there is room to improve my deep sleep time.

Searching the past couple of days hasn't really revealed any real information.

I'm about to start a before bed regimen again (I stopped taking supplements while forming a baseline with the zeo) which will include:

Lions mane - 2g
Mag threonate - haven't worked out proper dosage yet.
L-theanine - 100-200mg
Fish oil x2

Will any of these help or hinder deep sleep?

What else could I take to extend the stages of deep sleep?

[renfr]

I'm not sure fish oil will increase deep sleep when taken at night but rather decrease it.
When you sleep acetylcholine must go down in cycles, too much acetylcholine will increase REM sleep and reduce significantly deep sleep because serotonin is inhibited.
To me bacopa has been one of the best supplements to increase deep sleep, theanine can help too, deep sleep is mediated by serotonin and you need enough of it to reach SWS.
Btw, what do you mean "stages" of deep sleep? There's only one stage of deep sleep being the fourth.

[Pirate]

Thanks for the reply. I was under the impression there were still 5 stages of sleep, stages 3 and 4 being deep sleep but now I see that it has been changed to 4 stages with only stage 3 being dream sleep.

I'll stop the fish oil at night and see what happens. I took theanine last night but I had a bad nights sleep anyway. Hopefully I will sleep better tonight, and I can see if the theanine an lack of fish oil makes a difference.

So, increasing serotonin should increase deep sleep? I have 5-htp and tryptophan on hand.
Does ashwagandha help deep sleep?

[hamishm00]

Glycine seems to improve sleep quality.

http://onlinelibrary...0262.x/abstract

[Pirate]

Which part of sleep quality though? The only ref to deep sleep in the abstract is the shortening of PSG latency. I'm specifically trying to extend deep sleep time.

"In human volunteers who have been continuously experiencing unsatisfactory sleep, effects of glycine ingestion (3 g) before bedtime on subjective sleep quality were investigated, and changes in polysomnography (PSG) during sleep were analyzed. Effects on daytime sleepiness and daytime cognitive function were also evaluated. Glycine improved subjective sleep quality and sleep efficacy (sleep time/in-bed time), and shortened PSG latency both to sleep onset and to slow wave sleep without changes in the sleep architecture. Glycine lessened daytime sleepiness and improved performance of memory recognition tasks. Thus, a bolus ingestion of glycine before bedtime seems to produce subjective and objective improvement of the sleep quality in a different way than traditional hypnotic drugs such as benzodiazepines."

Tonight, I took 200mg 5-htp to see how that affects my deep sleep time according to the zeo sleep manager. I will report back.

Edited by Pirate, 06 February 2013 - 09:53 AM.

[tlm884]

Typtophan, Taurine, Gabapentin. That is my stack for an incredible sleep

[meatsauce]

Ipamorelin + mod grf 1. Causes a large release of growth hormone which will help induce a deep sleep. I love it. They have curred my insomnia and I am feeling great!

[chung_pao]

Why do you want more deep sleep?
SSRI's increase deep sleep, so serotonin certainly seems to be the switch.
How did you do with 5-htp?

[starlight_starbright]

Interesting. I'd never even thought of supplements that might improve my sleep. And since I sleep really poorly...

And I guess that the same things that improve daily focus (excercise, water, proper stimulation), will also improve sleep.

[crusader]

Ipamorelin + mod grf 1. Causes a large release of growth hormone which will help induce a deep sleep. I love it. They have curred my insomnia and I am feeling great!

interesting...

is this a long term solution for sleep issues? where can you order these from?

i have serious issues with sleep quality and am looking for some more progressive options.