187 replies to this topic

[anagram]

When I am on a Tryptophan restricted diet, I tend to feel sleepier and have better nights. Perhaps if there were some sort of serotonin analogue or something to fit into 5htp receptors and antagonism serotonin, you might be able to get a better effect. Tryptophan has some nasty metabolites which are cancer promoting and neurodegeneration promoting, shit sucks.
-I have theorized that the adenine group in Adenosine antagonizes Tryptophan because of the structural relation, which may explain some of Adenosine's neuroprotective effects
If my theory is correct, then it explains some of the neuroprotection caused by these compounds.
http://en.wikipedia..../Butylphthalide
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Rasagiline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BPAP
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Indeloxazine

Edited by anagram, 08 February 2013 - 01:30 AM.

[protoject]

Interesting theory, not sure if there's any proof to back it up but interesting nonetheless. But i agree that serotonin antagonism is important. Particularly I find that the 5ht receptor antagonist TRAZODONE is one of the only things that actually makes me sleep.

However, I cant say the same for Tryptophan which is supposedly supporting the opposite- though it's hard to say because Tryptophan has its own neurological effects seperate from serotonin. [though i do find serotonin receptor agonists make it more difficult for me to sleep]

Tryptophan- at first it would help with sleep induction, however would wake up very shortly maybe within 1 and a half hours and have a MUCH harder time falling back asleep.

We need something that upregulates or agonises adeonisine for sure, i havent seen any interesting prospects for sleep purposes as of yet. But ya I wanna find more 5ht receptor blockers personally.

[protoject]

Also, is there any substance that totally supresses REM sleep, i'm sure alot of you dont agree but i tend to think thats a good thing:)

What you think is irrelevant, lacking REM sleep can lead to serious brain damage and early death.

Some people have excessive REM sleep and may benefit from suppressing it. or, rather controlling it [for example, many people with depression enter into REM too early and stay in it far too long]. However I am not suggesting that it should be surpressed to a high degree and you would obviously want an enhancement of slow-wave sleep to go along with it. Correct me if I am wrong.

[medievil]

This thread reminds me if must me the clonazepam making me so calm, also no matter what stim im on can just zone off, great medication.

As far as best sleep benzo tought bromazepam was a powerfull shorter acting hypnotic, id dose benzo's with dxm to prevent addiction.

[adamh]

This thread reminds me if must me the clonazepam making me so calm, also no matter what stim im on can just zone off, great medication.

As far as best sleep benzo tought bromazepam was a powerfull shorter acting hypnotic, id dose benzo's with dxm to prevent addiction.

I agree about the clonazepam for sleep, haven't tried the bromazepam. What i wonder about is your statement of using dxm to prevent addiction? DXM is a dissociative as well as cough suppressant. Its known to have some antidepressant activity but i never heard of it being used with benzos for some benefit. Is this from experience or where did you hear that?

I've found ambien just about quit working for me. I only took it once a week but after a few months, even 2 don't work anymore. Would a few weeks layoff bring it back to effectiveness or does it take longer?

Occasional high dose melatonin will work or help but then come the crazy dreams. Insomnia and the common cold are 2 things medical science has no real answers for. Benzos are no good long term. I know it but what else is there?

[smithx]

I recently tried 3g of glycine at night to no obvious effect.

One thing which really did work to knock me out, but which also made me groggy the next day was a product from "Herbs etc." called Deep Sleep, containing california poppy, valerian root, passionflower, etc.

I have been using time-release melatonin from LEF, and it doesn't seem to do much until I take at least 3mg, and then it causes intense odd dreams.

One interesting point: it may be unrealistic for us to think we should just sleep for 7 hours in a stretch and that not doing so is abnormal. This idea may be quite recent. See:
http://en.wikipedia....Segmented_sleep

Historian A. Roger Ekirch (2001,2005) argues that before the Industrial Revolution, segmented sleep was the dominant form of human slumber in Western civilization. He draws evidence from documents from the ancient, medieval, and modern world, which he discovered over the course of fifteen years of research. Other historians, such as Craig Koslofsky have endorsed Ekirch's discovery and analysis.

According to Ekirch's argument, typically individuals slept in two distinct phases, bridged by an intervening period of wakefulness of up to an hour or more. Peasant couples, who were often too tired after field labor to do much more than eat and go to sleep, awoke later to have sex.^[5] People also used this time to pray and reflect,^[6] and to interpret dreams, which were more vivid at that hour than upon waking in the morning. This was also a favorite time for scholars and poets to write uninterrupted, whereas still others visited neighbors, or engaged in petty crime.

[Clarity]

One thing that I found out that initally knocked me out (I'm resistant to many things that are suppose to) is Greek Mountain Tea (aka Mountain Tea, Shepherd's tea or Ironwort). They don't make supplements for it (hopefully in the future), but it's a staple on a Greek island whose inhabitants have a high percentage of centenarians and consume it daily (among other things)...lots of health claims including reversing alzheimers in mice (which I think doesn't translate to humans), but it must be benign if it's a regular staple.

After using it awhile it just makes me tired enough that with a little effort I could go to sleep easily. Not to the point where I had a dire need to sleep the first 2 weeks of using.

And setting the alarm to get up at the same time no matter how little you slept the night before, even on weekends...it works rather quickly. You just have to suffer for a little bit with sleep deprivation.

[August59]

Interesting theory, not sure if there's any proof to back it up but interesting nonetheless. But i agree that serotonin antagonism is important. Particularly I find that the 5ht receptor antagonist TRAZODONE is one of the only things that actually makes me sleep.

However, I cant say the same for Tryptophan which is supposedly supporting the opposite- though it's hard to say because Tryptophan has its own neurological effects seperate from serotonin. [though i do find serotonin receptor agonists make it more difficult for me to sleep]

Tryptophan- at first it would help with sleep induction, however would wake up very shortly maybe within 1 and a half hours and have a MUCH harder time falling back asleep.

We need something that upregulates or agonises adeonisine for sure, i havent seen any interesting prospects for sleep purposes as of yet. But ya I wanna find more 5ht receptor blockers personally.

Trazodone is a very good sleep drug. I couldn't take it because I was having allergies to it. If you wait and take it right at bedtime it can give you a rough hangover, so take it around 2 hours before bed time if you wait that long!

[protoject]

Trazodone is a very good sleep drug. I couldn't take it because I was having allergies to it. If you wait and take it right at bedtime it can give you a rough hangover, so take it around 2 hours before bed time if you wait that long!

Yeah like recently i was trying trazadone for a while and it helped intiation of sleep, and sometimes it would help lengthen sleep when it was working well, mainly though it was good for initiation but not maintainence. That was nice because I could control when I actually fell asleep for the most part, but still sucks because i can't get over 4 hours ot so..., and i was getting cardiovascular side effects and mental ones so i stopped.

Recently I picked up Gabapentin to see if I'd be able to use this to help with sleep. So far, it has helped at least 50% of the time. Actually, on Saturday night i had about 6 hours of sleep without waking up, and then another couple afterwards. Normal for most people, extremely rare for me even to get a total of 6 in one night. It does improve Slow wave and deep sleep.

I have a feeling this will be short lived unfortunately. But honestly one day I took it every hour or so and eventually i was falling asleep at work. I couldn't even stay awake while the trainer was talking to me and i dont know if she noticed i fell asleep because i was asleep and couldnt tell if my eyes had closed or what. Anyway. That's EXTREMELY rare for me. I was so glad when I slept that night.

This thread reminds me if must me the clonazepam making me so calm, also no matter what stim im on can just zone off, great medication.

As far as best sleep benzo tought bromazepam was a powerfull shorter acting hypnotic, id dose benzo's with dxm to prevent addiction.

I read somewhere the other day that Quazepam works except it does not disrupt sleep architecture like other benzos. Half life is 30 hours but ive seriously considered giving this one a try. To me it seems like there would be less health risks with it in that case but i've got to do my research.

Edited by protoject, 26 February 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[medievil]

got bromazepam now but find it quite shitty and need high doses but probably build tolerance with klonopin so is tarted a dxm regime also for the stims i take.

This thread reminds me if must me the clonazepam making me so calm, also no matter what stim im on can just zone off, great medication.

As far as best sleep benzo tought bromazepam was a powerfull shorter acting hypnotic, id dose benzo's with dxm to prevent addiction.

I agree about the clonazepam for sleep, haven't tried the bromazepam. What i wonder about is your statement of using dxm to prevent addiction? DXM is a dissociative as well as cough suppressant. Its known to have some antidepressant activity but i never heard of it being used with benzos for some benefit. Is this from experience or where did you hear that?

I've found ambien just about quit working for me. I only took it once a week but after a few months, even 2 don't work anymore. Would a few weeks layoff bring it back to effectiveness or does it take longer?

Occasional high dose melatonin will work or help but then come the crazy dreams. Insomnia and the common cold are 2 things medical science has no real answers for. Benzos are no good long term. I know it but what else is there?

find my threads about nmda antagonists for tolerance on bluelight.

Interesting theory, not sure if there's any proof to back it up but interesting nonetheless. But i agree that serotonin antagonism is important. Particularly I find that the 5ht receptor antagonist TRAZODONE is one of the only things that actually makes me sleep.

However, I cant say the same for Tryptophan which is supposedly supporting the opposite- though it's hard to say because Tryptophan has its own neurological effects seperate from serotonin. [though i do find serotonin receptor agonists make it more difficult for me to sleep]

Tryptophan- at first it would help with sleep induction, however would wake up very shortly maybe within 1 and a half hours and have a MUCH harder time falling back asleep.

We need something that upregulates or agonises adeonisine for sure, i havent seen any interesting prospects for sleep purposes as of yet. But ya I wanna find more 5ht receptor blockers personally.

dipyridamole? got that stuff its otc here, its a adenosing reuptake inhibitor.

[Clarity]

Does Gaba deplete serotonin? Because the last time I took Gaba for a few days, I woke up pretty depressed by the 3rd day. Took 5-htp for a couple of days and I was good again. Gaba also makes me feel like I've been hit by a bus in the morning.

[Kevnzworld]

I took trazadone once..just to check it out because my GF takes a half a pill...I had a hangover effect unlike anything else I had ever experienced. I recently had surgery and it was uncomfortable to sleep. I had to sleep on my back, so my doc prescribed Ambien. It works, and I had no hangover. ( 10mg ).
Now that I'm better I've ditched the Ambien and just stick to time release melatonin. I also take some progesterone, and my minerals before bed...

Edited by Kevnzworld, 06 March 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[medievil]

Alimemazine ftw

[medievil]

Alimemazine is my favorite, its a old pentothiazide derived from mb, its prob a mild ap without much side effects, felt the cleanest of all histamine antagonist and was a highly favorible sedative in the old days.

Here a pack of 50 is only 2 euro's.

[Mind]

http://www.kurzweila...-improve-memory

Mednick and her research team demonstrated, for the first time, the critical role that sleep spindles play in consolidating memory in the hippocampus, and they showed that pharmaceuticals could significantly improve that process, far more than sleep alone.
“We found that a very common sleep drug can be used to increase verbal memory,” said Mednick, the lead author of a paper that outlines results of two studies conducted over five years with a $651,999 research grant from the National Institutes of Health. “This is the first study to show you can manipulate sleep to improve memory. It suggests sleep drugs could be a powerful tool to tailor sleep to particular memory disorders.”
A total of 49 men and women between the ages of 18 and 39 who were normal sleepers were given varying doses of zolpidem (Ambien) or sodium oxybate (Xyrem), and a placebo, allowing several days between doses to allow the pharmaceuticals to leave their bodies. Researchers monitored their sleep, measured sleepiness and mood after napping, and used several tests to evaluate their memory.
The researchers found that zolpidem significantly increased the density of sleep spindles and improved verbal memory consolidation.

Time for me to get some Ambien.

[sleeponit]

Does anybody know a healthy supplement that calms you and make you think/worry less while you're in bed trying to sleep?

Please advise.

Try L-Theanine. I know when I'm overtired and/or thinking too much, that markedly improves sleep "induction" (what you're talking about). It does this by the mechanism I described where, essentially,

"Remember, L-Theanine is responsible for counteracting the stimulatory properties of the caffeine in tea (green tea) and inducing the production of alpha brain waves which create a state of deep relaxation and alertness. Because of this, some people actually recommend taking it just before sleep ...but I don't like that...I want to turn OFF my brain for sleep"

In a sense, just as it helps markedly improve daytime concentration / ability to focus deeply (not unlike an athlete getting "in the zone"), it helps you transition more smoothly to sleep or helps you "concentrate on" your sleep...so to speak.

Obviously, you'll want to investigate all the things that are causing you worry/overthinking and/or anxiety. Please review the link I provided with great sleep hygeine tips

from the American Sleep Association that offers other "Sleep Hygenine Tips" that most people really don't know or think about. Together, it's a nice list that will teach everyone at least one thing I think: http://www.sleepasso...leephygienetips or just my post if you haven't yet. The big stuff that causes anxiety would be noisy neighbors (move; get earplugs, put on some white noise like a fan); money problems (which can be a viscious cycle with insomnia); arguing with someone frequently or bad relationships; general "worries"; lack of exercise (people forget this one, but even a LITTLE bit of exercise like 5 mins a day, can help a lot); "fear" of something that may happen in the future (all you can do is your best; after that, let it go); "regret" and guilt (people forget how to live in the present; they/we're always thinking about the past or the future. We forget simple things like how good this bed feels right now!); pain; and the list goes on. So it'll be easy for you to pinpoint what's the source of your anxiety or overthinking. However, it's very common for a majority of people, though, to just say "I can't turn off my brain at night. That's all!" But, if you look into it, the causes are usually obvious.

Like I said, L-Theanine can have the added advantage of giving your daytime focus so that you do a better job, whatever your work is. That improves productivity which usually increases your green, which, in turn, generally helps you chill more. So a nice side effect of sorts.

Melatonin's great too because it can help regulate your sleep-wake cycle (your endogenous "clock") which is primarily regulated by the SUN, people forget. That's why 2 groups of people who benefit the most from melatonin are a) people who don't get enough outdoor activities; and b) people on swing and/or graveyard shifts. Melatonin is great for these 2 groups. Remember, outdoor activities can translate into all of the following, which are essential:

i. Exercise (the obvious one)
ii Socializing (people forget this one, but we're social beings, and this is actually important for our survival on many levels). Having a few friends or an emotional support system is important, too, for sleep, since we worry less when we feel we have one or more people we can fall back on if needed.
iii. Our brains (where melatonin is produced) need the sun to help regulate our internal clock.
iv. Sun strengthens bones by way of increasing vitamin D production in the skin. (of course, you can always take it as a vitamin, but then you miss all the other advantages of getting out)
v. If you work at home, then you're working, sleeping eating, everything at home. Most of us would agree that's not good.
vi. Exercise gives you a better sense of "well-being" (my theory is that the blood circulating through your brain is less stagnant, ie there's better blood flow contributing to an overall sense of well-being. Plus all your organs (including your brain) can "breathe" easier, since they're getting relatively more oxygenated. Our bodies are smart. Sometimes before an organ shuts down, we just get anxious. That's the body's way of saying "hey, get t he f-ck out of the house!"

A lot of this may not apply to you specifically, mostly the first part, so hopefully you won't mind my having thrown in a few extras. Merci et, bien sur, bonne nuit!

[sleeponit]

Does Gaba deplete serotonin? Because the last time I took Gaba for a few days, I woke up pretty depressed by the 3rd day. Took 5-htp for a couple of days and I was good again. Gaba also makes me feel like I've been hit by a bus in the morning.

Hi Clarity. I just saw your question and thought maybe I could share some thoughts with you that might help you or others. I know it's been a long time since you posted (me too before today), but hey, we're all doing our best, and helping each other in the end. I hope I can make a difference for you and others.

Here's the little bit I learned when I was researching the same thing (most of it shows the effect of serotonin on GABA...but maybe some of this will help you indirectly or at least increase your awareness, since I don't think anything's set in stone yet really in the literature:

• I read (saved the excerpt only) that "Serotonin antagonizes GABA (subset B) receptors, causing upregulation of this subtype. The activity of benzodiazepines (things like Ativan, Klonopin, etc) in the treatment of serotonin syndrome is thought to occur because these compounds acts as strong agonists (stimulants) at GABA subset B) receptors."
• I also saw that "GABA [a supplement used by bodybuilders to help their bodies break-down and build up over night a little better] acts as a serotonin reuptake inhibitor (opposite of your experience I guess)
• I've seen reports of "increased brain GABA concentrations following acute administration of an SSRI" (SSRI's basically leave more serotonin in the synapse to get across the synapse, since they inhibit reupdate at the presynaptic side).
• "Because serotinin is essential to GABA function, increasing levels in the body has a positive effect on GABA synethesis and function." However, more meaningful than that silly exerpt I saved is probably that GABA's absorption across the blood brain barrier (BBB) is NOT that good. What helps? Fish oil (omega 3 fatty acids) and B12. This is separate research you can find if you're interested. The point is you might try, as I do, taking your fish oil pill and vitamin B12 at night with your GABA. Let us know if you feel the GABA has better results.
• I remember also reading that serotonin (eg 5-HTP or SSRI) suppress GABAergic signaling. The excerpt I took was that "the suppression of GABAergic signaling provides a novel mechanism for serotonergic modulation of prefrontal cortex (the smartest part of your brain) neuronal activity, which may underlie the actions of many antidepressant drugs." What does all this mean? I don't pretend to know.

Now all that is kind of academic-sounding. Bottom line is, I'm pretty sure the signal each other to some degree in the brain. That said, I take 5-HTP usually once a day now at bed for a more "peaceful sleep"- few nightmares, more "thoughtful" dreams. By this I mean you have a greater sense of control/awareness and you're not as emotionally drained by your dreams in the morning) and GABA. I'll bet you anthing that the 2 do interact somewhat through various signaling pathways, etc. But, in the end, HTP has its advantages (ones I just cited) and GABA gives you "deeper, more healing" sleep, generally. But can cause up/down regulation, like anything, so always "start low and go slow" with any medication.

Incidentally (if I may) I wanted to share something very important with people taking HTP ("mood enhancer"). As everyone knows it's basically a precursor to serotonin that they sell in most every store or pharmacy now. Basically, the idea is that produce more of the feel good neurotransmitter, serotonin. The thing is, HTP (or "5-HTP"), can sort of accumulate, to a degree, after months. Here's what I mean: 90% of your serotonergic receptors are in the brain, HEART and gastrointestinal systems. Why do I even share this with you? Because I want to share potential side effects with you, at least for greater awareness. For example, after months (my wife reported the same and almost around the same time), your heart can start to POUND or race (2 different things) and (besides being potentially life-threatening) THAT pounding itself can interfere with your sleep (can worsen induction and actually wake you up--I've experienced both these things. "The pounding you can almost hear/feel in your head. Plus you're kind of overstimulated so, just like exercise (where the heart is also racing), that extra heart activity can be bad for sleep. This is usually a sign to STOP the HTP (or at least take a break from it and cut it down). Both me and my wife have experienced this important side effect. You can also get loose stools. These 2 systems' side effects are VERY common. Obviously, if you have a bad heart, history of palpitations, family history of heart disease, uncontrolled hypertension, etc etc (talk with your doctor to see if your heart is healthy enough for HTP!), then you should seriously consider AVOIDING HTP, or at minimum, using a low dose. Yeah, some of this stuff almost sounds like Viagra warnings, lol, but it's the same concept really.

Now, for those who are healthy enough to take HTP, the cool thing about those 2 side effects is that they also serve as "warning signs", where you may want to cut back on your HTP or SSRI (esp if it's your heart). In these cases, I STOP the HTP altogether for about 2 weeks and reinitiate at maybe half the dose. Sometimes that means to cutting out your morning (or evening dose) altogether. REMEMBER, just like L-Theanine has 2 totally disparate advantages (sleep and markedly improved daytime concentration), so HTP has 2 totally disparate advantages:

improved sleep and, as I shared in my first or second post I believe, it can also significantly improve your "irritability" factor. Most of us will not admit we have such a problem, but what's amazing is that HTP makes a huge difference in your daytime irritability (your less irritable with others, like your boss, coworkers, generally annoying people, traffic, etc). No, you're not a zombie. You're just a lot less negatively engaging / negatively reactive. That alone improves your sleep.

All that said, my own experience is that GABA (not unlike alcohol) helps you fall asleep FAST (but it makes you "want to" wake up earlier (also like alcohol). In my experience, it sort of sets an internal alarm for about 5 hours). This may just be me, but it's been my repeated experience, and maybe this will help some of you just to be aware of this. Speaking of which, Ativan (lorazepan) sets me to about 9 hours (people should avoid benzos, if possible, generally since you can build tolerance, although, honestly GABA, ambien etc can also "upregulate" overtime); and Ambien sets me at about 9.5 hours. So, I can take advantage of this when I have to get "some" sleep "but" wake up early. I might hold off on the others and just take GABA that night. The thing is, while GABA does give you deeper sleep (stages 3 & 4), WHILE you're sleeping, because you tend to wake up earlier, sometimes you'll feel "awesome" when you wake up and other times you'll feel like you wish you had 1 more sleep cycle (one sleep cycle = 40 minutes). You experienced a 3rd scenario: "Gaba also makes me feel like I've been hit by a bus in the morning." I've experienced that a lot too. Here's what I think about that: 2 things really: 1) because GABA kind of wakes you up "abruptly", that can SOMETIMES be in the middle of your sleep cycle...which can theoretically be MID stages 3 & 4 sleep (deeper sleep when your body is generally paralyzed). So you'll feel, precisely "like I was hit by a truck (bus)". On those mornings, just try and lie down for EVEN another 10 mins (in my experience). That allows your body (to use an expression I often use) to "fast forward" (basically for your brain waves to catch up to your body's "awake" cycle). That 10 mins can make a HUGE difference and help lift that f'ing heavy truck that won't even let you get through the day. So, everybody, keep that in mind. If you have this experience, try (however obvious) giving yourself an (at least) 10 min snooze. Remember, too, I shared with people earlier that, if you have trouble falling BACK asleep (as in this snooze scenario), you can try L-Theanine. However (again, just my experience), I usually get about 3 more hours of sleep when I take L-Theanine. Obviously, each person is different, and obviously, if you can snooze easily, just try it on your own without anything extra.

By the way, I don't know if I shared my theory with people here yet, but (this is a side note) for anyone out there who suffers from ADHD (Attention Deficity Hyperactivity Disorder, formerly known as "ADD"), and you've "failed everything", I want you to CONSIDER trying L-Theanine. I think you or your loved one may experience a life-changin difference. Sorry, I know that's not direclty on the topic, but it is an "added advantage" of L-Theanine, not related to sleep per se. My theory is that, just as it helps you focus on your sleep, it also helps you focus in the day. I think that just as a "non-ADHD person" (like me) has experienced dramatic improvements in his ability to focus/concentrate in the daytime, my belief (only a theory) is that ADHD suffers *might* also experience the same benefits. My productivity improves, like, 3-10-fold each day when I take it. That's why I always take 100mg L-Theanine (I use brand SunTheanine because it has more of the active isoform (basically it's more pure)) twice a day: AM and, again, 8h alter when it begins to wear off (which matches the half-life, if I remember). I DON'T take it at night before bed UNLESS I am "overtired" (that's that horrible feeling when your heart and body are so tired but your mind is still going and you can't seem to sleep, at least that's how I describe overtired). L-Theanine is great for that too because, as I shared with one other individual here, it helps smooth the transition (better sleep induction) by altering your brain waves to more "alpha" or pre-sleep.

Some of you might be wondering, "hey, what the heck. How can it be good for sleep AND be good for daytime concentration?!" Well, I don't pretend to have all (or many) of the answers. But the .zip I attached in my 1st or 2nd post on L-Theanine has the answer if I remember. Think of it this way: Not unlike athletes, whether you're focusing in the daytime or focusing on your sleep, it sort of "puts you in the zone". This is consistent with other research I've done on athletes who show the SAME level of brainwave activity when they're "in the zone" (I think it's also alpha waves). I'm no expert but my greatest hope is that this information will help a lot of you, directly or indirectly.

Incidentally, remember I talked about how GABA gave me horrible nightmare the first night? (and then, again, the first night when I tried it weeks later)? Well, it disappeared after the first night on reintroduction. I think the first night you sort of "dump" whatever neurotransmitter. I thought "well, that's just me", but then my wife experienced the same, exact style of nightmare her first night (same quality as mine where you feel paralyzed, kind of like hypnopompic hallucinations).

Lastly, on a somewhat related note, for anyone who suffers from hypnopompic hallucinations (also known as "sleep paralysis"), and hasn't yet been cured, try cutting out your caffeine completely. You'll be amazed and may actually never experience these paralyzing nightmares again.

Thanks for allowing me this opportunity to, hopefully, make a difference for you and anyone else who wants to learn more. Let me know how things work out. I don't check in here as often as I should. Have a great day.

[FocusPocus]

After 2 years of dabbling with drugs and supplements, I've finally found what works for my ADD-Pi, anxiety, and cyclothymia - low dose Ritalin and Caffeine and Buspirone. (all low doses)

 

But god! the insomnia! Its terrible, terrible, terrible!

 

My last dose of stimulants and Buspirone was way back at 3pm and I still cant manage to fall asleep.

 

This is so damn frustrating.

 

Yesterday I tossed around in bed adding doses of Mg and L-theanine and finally when I slept, it took 750 mg Mg Citrate, 500 mg Mg threonate and 400mg L-theanine.

 

And the morning grogginess just ruined my whole day till noon even with extra caffeine.

 

Doses below 1mg of Melatonin seem to have no effects on me, and I cant seem to get my mcg doses right with powder.

 

I'm thinking of Taurine, glycine etc now. 

 

If they dont work/gives me morning drowsiness, I think I might just go crazy one of these days.

 

Oh and Ambien 10mg knocks me the fk out with less drowsiness. But daily ambien? Wont it worsen depression/memory/cognition?

[NeuroGeneration]

Oh and Ambien 10mg knocks me the fk out with less drowsiness. But daily ambien? Wont it worsen depression/memory/cognition?

 

And increase your odds for cancer, as well as overall mortality. Don't f* with Ambien.

[FocusPocus]

 

Oh and Ambien 10mg knocks me the fk out with less drowsiness. But daily ambien? Wont it worsen depression/memory/cognition?

 

And increase your odds for cancer, as well as overall mortality. Don't f* with Ambien.

 

 

What cancer does ambien cause? All cancers?

[NeuroGeneration]

Sleeping Pills Called 'as Risky as Cigarettes'

Study Links Sleeping Pills to 4.6-Fold Higher Death Risk

http://www.webmd.com...y-as-cigarettes

 

"They also had a 35% higher risk of cancer, the study found"

 

"Based on these findings, Kripke and colleagues estimate that sleeping pills are linked to 320,000 to 507,000 U.S. deaths each year. 'We think these sleeping pills are very dangerous. We think they cause death. We think they cause cancers,' Kripke says. 'It is possible but not proven that reducing the use of these pills would lower the U.S. death rate.'"

 

 

 

Ambien: Worth the few extra zzz's?

http://www.foxnews.c...few-extra-zzzs/

 

"In a study comparing 10,000 users of sleeping pills like zolpidem to nonusers, pill takers were up to 35 percent more likely to develop some type of cancer, including lymphoma and lung cancer, and they were 4.56 times more likely to die of any cause. Though the reasons are still unclear, 'the risk of death was substantial even in people taking just 18 pills a year—but it increased the more they took,'"
 

Of course, correlation does not prove causation – people who need sleeping pills may already be less healthy than those who don't – but in my opinion, taking healthy supplements (melatonin), or seemingly less unhealthy supplements (california poppy, valerian), is a more calculated, wise decision.

Edited by NeuroGeneration, 16 September 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[Peak Noots]

Wanted to add here:

 

Best Sleep Inducers (these will knock you out)

-----------------------------

benzodiazepines (downside - addictive great if cycled properly)

non-benzodiazepines (not as bad as benzos but should be cycled)

anti-histamines (great OTC drugs to knock you out should be cycled)

dopamine antagonists (Tetrahydropalmatine is OTC excellent sleep aid should be cycled)

phenibut (works for some people - should be cycled)

melatonin (only effective for some people like shift workers - may not help a lot of people may help reset circadian rhythms)

 

Sleep Maintenance

------------------------------------

magnesium (In high dosages of bioavailable forms helps many people sleep through the whole night)

glycine (helps to promote deeper sleep highly recommended 3 grams +)

 

Best Cortisol Reducers

-----------------------------------

Ashwagandha (2-6 grams a day)

Lysine + Arginine (3 grams of each every day proven to lower cortisol 30%+ and help with anxiety if used >1 week)

 

Rhodiola and Ginseng not on the list as they can worsen insomnia even though they may reduce cortisol

 

Sedative Herbs

-------------------------------------

valarien

holy basil

lemon balm

hops

skullcap

passionflower

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Edited by Mind, 23 December 2014 - 05:59 PM.

[limited]

What sleep aids are their that help u stay asleep ?i tend to wake multiple times in the night or wake up and cant go back to sleep. Im on melatonin now its quite mediocre,ive tried promethazine,zoldiperm,zoplicine

[pbandy1]

Every night would be 400mg magnesium glycinate, l theanine. Sparingly would be 5htp and phenibut

[limited]

Thankyou .are these safe to take with prescriptions medication?

[Galaxyshock]

Thankyou .are these safe to take with prescriptions medication?

 

Which medication are you on? 5-htp shouldn't be taken with SSRI for example.

 

Also, consider increasing the "contrast" between day and night. Expose your eyes to daylight during the day, darkness in the night, be physically active during the day, etc.

 

High dose of Reishi mushroom to me feels like the ultimate calm, give it a try with good quality extract.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 02 January 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[limited]

Nothing helps me sleep at all ive tried everything .i need something that helps me sleep and remain alseep

[limited]

How effective is magnesium glycinate ?itried mag n calcium and it helped somewhat.im taking melatonin

[limited]

I cant sleep at all im wide awake in the night or i sleep and i wake uo and cant go back to sleep ive tried everything nothing works.i might be prescribed xyrem but im scared bcus im asmathic .but ive tried zoplicne n zoldiperm without any bad effects does this mean xyrem is ok too?

[NeuroGeneration]

What are people's thoughts on low dose lithium orotate for sleep? This Amazon review got me curious:

 

Ever since I was an infant, I have never been able to sleep normally. I have chronic severe insomnia that can't be solved by not drinking caffeine, taking melatonin or any of the regular sleep-hygiene practices. I've tried many prescription sleeping pills but they all made me feel woozy and depressed and I started getting bladder infections when taking them, which stopped once I stopped taking them, so I think those sleeping medications were stressing my urinary tract system.

For years I've tried to manage my insomnia by turning down the lights an hour before bed, taking Seriphos at 7pm, 8pm and 9pm to stop me from having a cortisol surge 6 hours after each of those doses (which is helpful, by the way), taking 10 mg time-release melatonin, GABA, Tryptophan, lemon balm, magnesium, etc. I would still often lie awake all night long, or get just 4 hours of sleep. I've been like a zombie, and constantly ill and miserable for most of my life because of my inability to sleep.

Then my doctor suggested that I take lithium orotate. I said "But I don't have bipolar disorder or chemical depression. If I could just sleep at night, I'd be perfectly happy." He said lithium orotate is completely different from the prescription lithium given to people with chemical imbalances and that anyone can take it without a prescription.

The first night I took it, I slept more deeply than I can remember having slept in my entire life. When I was on hardcore sleeping medications I would spend most of the night unconscious (until I woke at 2am and had to take a 2nd dose), but the sleep didn't feel anywhere near as restful and wholesome as the sleep I enjoy when I take lithium orotate. I think this gets me into a deep sleep phase every time I take it.

I still take GABA, tryptophan, melatonin, and a loading dose of Seriphos, and I still wake up around 2am and take a second lithium orotate with more GABA, melatonin and tryptophan, and I still lie awake for 30-60 minutes before I conk out again--but that is heaven compared to what I used to deal with. I've read that lithium orotate helps enhance the re-uptake of neurotransmitters that are increased by taking GABA etc, so I find it helpful to take them all together.

You can see from the number of natural supplements I take in order to sleep, and the fact that I have to take it once at the beginning of the night and then again in the middle of the night when I wake up, just how severe my insomnia is. But despite that long list of pills, I was barely sleeping before I started taking lithium orotate. This product is an absolute godsend!!!!!!!!

After 35 years of suffering (I'm 35 years old), about ten years ago I lost hope of ever having a normal life. I thought I would never find a mate, because who wants to deal with someone who is always stumbling around exhausted? I thought I would always be poor, because I've been unable to work full-time in positions that require good memory and focus. Due to my insomnia, I've only been able to hold down low-paying part-time jobs. I thought I would never have children, because how could I care for a baby or deal with it waking up during the night, if I can barely sleep and would have no hope of falling asleep again after getting up to feed it? All the major milestones and activities people engage in to sustain themselves and live a full life were closed to me. I also thought I would get cancer and heart disease and die young, which is what doctors say lies in store for people who have a long-term running sleep deficit due to chronic, severe insomnia. All of that changed when I started taking lithium orotate. Now I have the energy to have a life partner, a career, and children, and all I had to do this whole time was buy a $14 bottle of pills that doesn't even require a prescription!I wish I had learned about this decades ago!

Please, if you know anyone who suffers from chronic severe insomnia like I do, tell them to try lithium orotate! No one should have to suffer the way I have suffered, especially not when the cure is probably as cheap and simple as taking this product. I send my best wishes to all of you for your health and happiness. I hope this product works as well for you as it has for me. And sweet dreams...

http://www.amazon.co...iews/B003B6X66U