1084 replies to this topic

[Fredrik]

I'm just a little surprised that the same people who complained about the effects of emodin are now using 99% resveratrol and mixing it with a laxative. But if it makes them run faster ...

ha ha [tung]

[asnufu]

(vodka, anyone?)

Yeh, vodka didn't work nearly as well. It certainly worked better than plain water, but the resveratrol wouldn't go clearly into solution, i have to recommend everclear.

Good idea, I might try evaporating some, it's pretty hot in atlanta, so I doubt it will take long

For those willing to experiment and/or not in a territory carrying Everclear and/or just plain vodkaphiles, this might be an alternative

http://www.thedrinks...php?prodid=1700

jeez, what wonderful social leverage this buys you: "Yeah, I'm drinking, it's for my health - here's to yours - skål!" [sfty]

Edited by asnufu, 18 July 2007 - 11:21 AM.

[lucid]

Well I tried to evaporate my peg+ethanol+water mixture and here is what I found:
*After 4-5 hours, the resveratrol suspension began to settle. By 8 hours the surface fluid was clear, so I poured it off to speed evaporation.
*After 2 days of sitting out (humidity was reasonably high both days, and I didn't have mixture in sunlight), the 'gel' at the bottom was still moist to the touch, no sign of bacterial colonies.
*Getting impatient, I tried mixing the 'gel' back with water, the gel would not mix back particularly quickly with plain water and certainly required stirring/scraping. The parts of it which did mix were certainly very fine bits of resveratrol, and the water began to look like it did in the resv+ethanol+peg suspension picture.
*Impatient again, I mixed in some ethanol which greatly aided in speeding up the mixing of the gel into the water, though I didn't add enough for everything to go into solution. This resulted in a suspension that looked very similiar to the resv+peg+water+ethanol picture.
I was going to put pictures up but the results were rather unimpressive where as I didn't get a powder from the evaporation, and the gel mixed back in to water quite slowly (though the particles were definitely very small). I will try this again and may put the mixture in the oven at a very low heat (110 degrees). The trans form of resveratrol is sensitive to heat, oxygen, and uv light, so you have to be careful when trying to evaporate it as it will revert to the 'cis' form.

Also on ethanol and resveratrol, here is another reason to take them together:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....7&dopt=Abstract

Synergy between ethanol and grape polyphenols, quercetin, and resveratrol, in the inhibition of the inducible nitric oxide synthase pathway.

Chan MM, Mattiacci JA, Hwang HS, Shah A, Fong D.

Department of Microbiology and Immunology, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA 19140, USA. marionc@astro.temple.edu

In atherosclerosis and tumor initiation, inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) has been implicated in the damage of vascular walls and DNA, respectively. Moderate consumption of red wine has been ascribed as a preventive for coronary heart disease; however, there has been much debate over whether the beneficial effect is from grape polyphenolic components or ethanol. We studied the interaction of grape compounds on nitric oxide (NO) production by macrophages, mediators of blood vessel damage in atherosclerosis. For the murine macrophage cell line RAW 264.7, stimulation with lipopolysaccharide and interferon-gamma led to expression of the iNOS gene and production of NO. The polyphenols quercetin and resveratrol at a micromolar range suppressed iNOS gene expression and NO production, as determined by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction and nitrite assay. The polyphenols were also found to be scavengers of NO in an acellular system using sodium nitroprusside under physiological conditions. Ethanol, at a moderate level, did not produce any appreciable level of reduction of iNOS or NO activity. However, its presence at 0.1 to 0.75% enhanced the effect of grape polyphenols concentration-dependently. Thus, the interaction between these components plays a significant role in the health effects of red wine, especially with respect to their effect on the NO pathway.

I couldn't find the amount that the ethanol enhanced resveratrol effects because I couldn't find the full article, but never the less...

[maxwatt]

I'm just a little surprised that the same people who complained about the effects of emodin are now using 99% resveratrol and mixing it with a laxative. But if it makes them run faster ...

ha ha [tung]

Actually emodin and Miralax work by very different methods; emocdn irritates the small intestine, which can feel very unpleasant and may have deleterious effects over time. Miralax causes the stool to retain water, so it is passed more easily.


(Redacted to correct typos)

Edited by maxwatt, 21 July 2007 - 12:08 PM.

[niner]

Ethanol, at a moderate level, did not produce any appreciable level of reduction of iNOS or NO activity. However, its presence at 0.1 to 0.75% enhanced the effect of grape polyphenols concentration-dependently.

So this would be the argument in favor of being drunk all the time. The US standard for DWI is 0.08% BAC. Offhand, I'd guess that 0.75% would constitute being embalmed, but ya never know..

Edited by niner, 21 July 2007 - 05:27 AM.

[electric buddha]

I just wanted to quickly add my thanks in for all this testing. I think my first post here out of lurking was on the very issue discussed here, so I'm especially grateful to get this level of experimental evidence.

[inawe]

I'm just a little surprised that the same people who complained about the effects of emodin are now using 99% resveratrol and mixing it with a laxative. But if it makes them run faster ...

ha ha [tung]

Actually emodin and Miralax work by very different methods; emocdn irritates the small intestine, which can feel very unpleasant and may have deleterious effects over time. Miralax causes the stool to retain water, so it is passed more easily.


(Redacted to correct typos)

I never had the need to take it, so I'm not an expert on laxatives. I'm being told however, that a very nasty one sneaked into stuff I was taking. I was on 1600 mgr/day of 50% resveratrol powder (BAC) for 5 months. It probably had over 3% emodin. So I was ingesting at least 48 mgr/day of emodin. It never affected me much (guess it's all in the intestines of the beholder). I'm now on a much purer resveratrol powder (about 1gr/day).
For curiosity I went to check and saw that Miralax is PEG 3350. One has to go up to PEG 8000 to have a "preventive agent against colorectal cancer in animal models". Here the advantage is with Emodin. Just enter "emodin cancer" into Pubmed and you'll see. It seems to have potential against several types.
As for the way to take resveratrol I rely on tradition. After she finished the hard work, on the seventh day, the Intelligent Designer put resveratrol in red wine and got drunk. I just take one glass (with more resveratrol and some quercetin to run interference).

[lucid]

. One has to go up to PEG 8000 to have a "preventive agent against colorectal cancer in animal models". Here the advantage is with Emodin. Just enter "emodin cancer" into Pubmed and you'll see. It seems to have potential against several types.

Actually miralax [PEG 3350] will do a good job at tumor inhibition, not as good as peg 8000 though.

http://cancerres.aac...full/60/12/3160

[whentnc]

Here is a homebrew transdermal recipe I found with the links on where to buy.
You can put anything under 400 daltons in it. I will put in ALCAR too -- because it has such a poor bio-availability also. I think the ratio is 1 gram per ounce of fluid.

Basic Formula
60% isopropyl (99%)
25% IPM
10% Oleic
5% Prop Glycol
Carbomer 934


www.Lemelange.com
$10 / 32 oz.
$10.50 / 16 oz.
$10 / 16 oz.
$8.50 / 16 oz.
$24.50 / lb

[pSimonKey]

Can anyone point me in the direction of a knotweed extraction method please? Is anyone doing it?
Thanks.

[dawebhead]

I am new to this site as well as Resveratrol use (used today for the very first time). I purchased Mega Resveratrol 99% powder. I placed a 1/4 teaspoon in my mouth and drank a cup of water.
I received an attachment which strongly recomends Quercetin use with the Resveratrol. Is this the experience of the group? Can anyone discuss a percentage on the increased effectiveness?
I will attempt post any and all effects personally experienced using the product? Also is it necessary to take four servings daily to experience a benefit?

Regards

[whentnc]

I am new to this site as well as Resveratrol use (used today for the very first time). I purchased Mega Resveratrol 99% powder. I placed a 1/4 teaspoon in my mouth and drank a cup of water.
I received an attachment which strongly recomends Quercetin use with the Resveratrol. Is this the experience of the group? Can anyone discuss a percentage on the increased effectiveness?
I will attempt post any and all effects personally experienced using the product? Also is it necessary to take four servings daily to experience a benefit?

Regards

I was thinking of doing RV as a transdermal -- but now im going to do it sublingual. (thats 100% absorption) -- ill post on the carrier -


http://www.resveratr....com/page40.htm “Bioavailability One of the nagging obstacles for resveratrol has been its seeming lack of oral bioavailability. Initial studies on the life prolongation effects of resveratrol were performed in yeast cells, not mammals that have a liver that metabolizes ingested molecules. At least four times in 2004 news stories emanating from newly published research papers declared red wine pills are not orally bioavailable and therefore of no potential benefit. Since red wine molecules like resveratrol and quercetin in red wine are efficiently attached to sulfur and sugar-like molecules (a process called sulfation and glucuronidation) on their first pass through the liver, there is little free resveratrol available thereafter. Many consumers threw away their resveratrol pills with the publication of these news reports. Researchers indicate resveratrol may have some benefit in the lining of the digestive tract but cannot exert systemic health benefits because of liver metabolism.

For example, Thomas Walle and colleagues at the University of South Carolina confirm that a minimum of 70 percent of oral resveratrol, as a small molecule, is absorbed in the human digestive tract, but thereafter most resveratrol in blood plasma is conjugated with (complexed with) sulfur and glucuronic acid as it passes through the liver. [Drug Metabolism Disposition 32:1377–82, 2004] Other studies also indicate that gastric absorption of resveratrol in-vivo may be high but there is limited bioavailability due to efficient sulfate conjugation. [J Pharmacy Pharmacology 55:307–12, 2003] Researchers in Britain also maintain that oral resveratrol is not bio-available and that an aerosol delivery system would be required to treat lung diseases. Am J Physiology Lung Cell Molecular Physiology 287:L774-83, 2004 … Moreover, three studies indicate the inclusion of quercetin with resveratrol inhibits sulfation in the liver and improves bioavailability. [Xenobiotica 30: 609–17, 2000; 30: 857–66, 2000; 30:1047–54, 2000] Additionally, lecithin has been found to enhance the oral absorption of polyphenols like quercetin and resveratrol. [J Agriculture Food Chemistry 13; 50:1706–12, 2002]”

[tintinet]

Someone started a project to sell t-resv. patches for trans dermal delivery, but they seem to have been delayed indefinitely.

[oaklandj]

Today, I tried, in a small glass:
* opened capsule of 1g Revgenetics 50% (=500 mg t-res)
* shot of 151 proof Everclear (that's the best you can get in California; at BevMo, about $30)
* 1/2 teaspoon Miralax (did not dissolve beforehand into water)

The result was a clear, dark-brown slick/gel-like substance. It seemed to have dissolved nicely. I took it all at once and the taste wasn't nearly as bad as I expected - very herbal, for sure, but nothing like putting a dropper-full of propolis in alcohol, if anyone's tried that!

I washed it down with some water. Forgot to take with quercetin.

When I washed the glass, some of the precipitate, esp before adding the Miralax, had stuck to the sides of the glass. The Miralax helped keep it in suspension, so that it washed out as a milky brown suspension.

The best part is this, for me at least, is a sustainable process. I could easily do this every day. I'm glad to hear that the little alcohol I'm taking with it helps a bit, too. Just not sure if I should add my quercetin capsule at the same time as the resveratrol powder.

[lucid]

Glad to hear it worked reasonably well with your 50% grade resv. The mixture is completely clear if done with 98% but I imagine that you still get the benefits if done with 50%. It would be nice if we could get serum levels of resveratrol or sirt1 activation tested in order to prove efficacy. I have been doing this every day for the past 2 weeks.

'Wake up and smell the everclear'

[tintinet]

Lucid- How much t-resv. are you taking using the ETOH/Miralax method? Have you noticed any difference in effect (subjective or objective) versus taking it without the preparation?

I bought some Miralax this weekend, but I'm somewhat skeptical the preparation method will significantly impact the effect of t-resv. supplementation....

[maxwatt]

Lucid-  How much t-resv. are you taking using the ETOH/Miralax method? Have you noticed any difference in effect (subjective or objective) versus taking it without the preparation?

I bought some Miralax this weekend, but I'm somewhat skeptical the preparation method will significantly impact the effect of t-resv. supplementation....

Judging by the effect on my arthritic big toe, the Miralax method is several times more effective than t-res alone.

FWIW, t-res at 1 to 2 gram per day eliminated arthritic symptom in my fingers, and reduced symptoms in my right toe. Two grams daily with Miralax seems well on the way to reversing the symptoms in the toe; the swelling is greatly reduced, soreness is almost gone, and I can bend the toe without pain. The "gritty" feeling in the joint when I flexed the toe is gone.

Also noted, a single daily dose is more effective than smaller, divided doses.

Edited by maxwatt, 30 July 2007 - 04:17 PM.

[malbecman]

I also tried the ETOH first to help dissolve my >98% resveratrol before adding to my ~1/2 tsp lecithin dissolved in 1 cup water. I only used about 1 oz alcohol for 800mg of resveratrol so it made more of a slurry but when I added it into the lecithin-water mix, the particles of resveratrol were much smaller and finer than when I did not use ETOH. I did a side by side comparison to make sure. The particle size in H20-lecithin alone are very small, just visible to the naked eye. The particles in the ETOH-H20-lecithin are too fine for me to see.

I tried to take some more pics to post like at the beginning of this thread but even w/ my macro lens, they didn't turn out good enough. Bummer......

[AlbertN]

Maxwatt,

In a different post less than two weeks ago, you said you were switching from Miralax to Lecithin. Have you done do yet, and if so, have you noticed any difference in your arthritis relief?

Also, if I understand your posts (they're scattered over multiple threads), you achieved some arthritis relief at 500mg of resveratrol, more at 2000mg, and even more when you mixed the resveratrol with with Miralax. How long did you have to take it before you started noticing benefit? Was it immediate or did it take weeks or months?

Finally, as I slowly ramp up the resveratrol, I think I'm going to 1) start at 500mg of resveratrol, then 2) go to 500mg of resveratrol with Miralax (or Lecithin), then 3) if I notice some relief, I might increase the resveratrol dosage. What are your thoughts on how I should construct my experiment?

Albert

[tintinet]

OK, guess I may have to dip into my wife's wine cellar for some ETOH pre-Miralax solution.....

[health_nutty]

Is it easy to dissolve the lecithin in water? Just stir or do you have to use a blender? Do you use lecithin granules or something else?

[maxwatt]

Maxwatt,

In a different post less than two weeks ago, you said you were switching from Miralax to Lecithin.  Have you done do yet, and if so, have you noticed any difference in your arthritis relief?

Also, if I understand your posts (they're scattered over multiple threads), you achieved some arthritis relief at 500mg of resveratrol, more at 2000mg, and even more when you mixed the resveratrol with with Miralax.  How long did you have to take it before you started noticing benefit?  Was it immediate or did it take weeks or months?

Finally, as I slowly ramp up the resveratrol, I think I'm going to 1) start at 500mg of resveratrol, then 2) go to 500mg of resveratrol with Miralax (or Lecithin), then 3) if I notice some relief, I might increase the resveratrol dosage.  What are your thoughts on how I should construct my experiment?

Albert

Still working on the Miralax. When I get back from vacation next week, I will try some lecithin. I expect it to be equally efficacious to lecithin.

Some relief was noted immediately, due to the COX2 effect of resveratrol perhaps with a touch of placebo effect. Reduction of finger joint swelling did not occur at less than 500 mg twice a day, and similar reduction int he welling and deformity of my right big toe joint required Miralax at 1.5 to 2 g per day. I would expect it to take several weeks in mild cases like mine, which has not yet seen a complete reversal in the toes, though it seems to be headed that way, Much is sure to depend on the severity and duration of the disease before application of resveratrol. Age of the subject may also enter into it. I'm in my early sixties.

I would start with the Miralax/resveratrol combination were I to do things over again. Ramping up the dose is a good idea. Miralax is not a laxative at low doses, but I find the effects to be cumulative, and have to take a break every few days, and use resveratrol alone. (It mixes well with yogurt -- not the non-fat kind, but with some lipids to dissolve it. I would bet lipid dispersed resveratrol is equally bioavailable to Miralax as a carrier, based on work I've seen done with CoQ10 on bioavailability.

Lastly, 2g a day works better for me than two divided doses of 1 g each; the peak serum level seems to matter more than area-under-the-curve.

How severe is your arthritis? How long have you suffered from it? What was your age at onset? What joints are affected?

Let us know how your experiments with resveratrol work out. I hope and expect you will get major relief of symptoms.

[malbecman]

Health_nutty,

I add ~1/2 tsp of soy lecithin granules to my 8-10 oz of water and stir w/ a spoon. Warm water will make it dissolve faster but it still takes 5-10 minutes so I just let it sit while I do something else. A blender would be great but do it at a low speed or I bet it will foam up pretty seriously. It even foams a little when I stir w/ a spoon. I still have some small lecithin chunks even after 5-10 minutes but have not noticed a difference in the suspension of resveratrol.

I've def. noticed a difference between adding the resveratrol to straight water vs. the water-lecithin mix. The powder (>98%) just sort of sits on the surface of the water and refuses to mix. In the lecithin-water, it starts falling into the liquid and forming a suspension/slurry pretty readily.

Does that help?

Is it easy to dissolve the lecithin in water?  Just stir or do you have to use a blender?  Do you use lecithin granules or something else?

[health_nutty]

Yes, that definitely helps. I'll get some lecithin and give it a go.

[lucid]

I found the rest of the article for the abstract mentioned below:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....7&dopt=Abstract

Synergy between ethanol and grape polyphenols, quercetin, and resveratrol, in the inhibition of the inducible nitric oxide synthase pathway.

In atherosclerosis and tumor initiation, inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) has been implicated in the damage of vascular walls and DNA, respectively. Moderate consumption of red wine has been ascribed as a preventive for coronary heart disease; however, there has been much debate over whether the beneficial effect is from grape polyphenolic components or ethanol. We studied the interaction of grape compounds on nitric oxide (NO) production by macrophages, mediators of blood vessel damage in atherosclerosis. For the murine macrophage cell line RAW 264.7, stimulation with lipopolysaccharide and interferon-gamma led to expression of the iNOS gene and production of NO. The polyphenols quercetin and resveratrol at a micromolar range suppressed iNOS gene expression and NO production, as determined by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction and nitrite assay. The polyphenols were also found to be scavengers of NO in an acellular system using sodium nitroprusside under physiological conditions. Ethanol, at a moderate level, did not produce any appreciable level of reduction of iNOS or NO activity. However, its presence at 0.1 to 0.75% enhanced the effect of grape polyphenols concentration-dependently. Thus, the interaction between these components plays a significant role in the health effects of red wine, especially with respect to their effect on the NO pathway.

I hope the studies authors don't mind the snipets I take from their paper:
On MOA:

Ethanol may facilitate cellular uptake of the polyphenols. It has been suggested that ethanol inhibits the binding of tannins, another polyphenolic component of red wine, to protein and therefore increases tannin bioavailability [43]. Moreover, these wine components may produce independent effects on different regulatory pathways that in combination result in a higher efficacy. For example, ethanol and quercetin, both scavengers of free radicals, may reduce iNOS mRNA expression by preventing oxidative stress-induced action on the transcription factor NFkB.

On Results:
This study was done in vitro, cell cultures (mouse macrophages) were put in a solution with varying concentrations of ethanol, the max ETOH was 1% and min was .1%. The effectiveness of Resveratrol at NO scavenging was tripled when in the presence of 1% ETOH. Obviously having a Blood Alcohol Content of 1% would have adverse health effects (I'm not sure if BAC of ETOH is effected by the same metabolic efficiency scaling as in humans though), but this does suggest that possibly higher ETOH consumption could be beneficial in humans if some of the negative health effects could be mitigated (especially in the liver).

Approximately every 25uM increase of Resveratrol concentration cut the remaining NO in half (doubling scavenging effectiveness).

[AlbertN]

Maxwatt,

I'm 45, and have had symptoms of arthritis in both hips for a couple of years. As of my last x-ray (about a year ago) I still had some joint space, although it was definitely narrower than it should have been. The forward/backward motion in my hips has gotten better over the last year because of exercise and supplements, but my side to side motion has gotten worse. I'm unable to play sports anymore except for cycling, and I'm starting to get impatient. At some point in the near future, if I can't improve sufficiently, I will probably get my hips resurfaced. Hence my interest in your experience with resveratrol.

How many days do you think I should remain at 500 mg of resveratrol before I add Lecithin? And then how many days should I take the combination, before I start upping the resveratrol dosage?

Albert

[maxwatt]

Maxwatt,

I'm 45, and have had symptoms of arthritis in both hips for a couple of years.  As of my last x-ray (about a year ago) I still had some joint space, although it was definitely narrower than it should have been.  The forward/backward motion in my hips has gotten better over the last year because of exercise and supplements, but my side to side motion has gotten worse.  I'm unable to play sports anymore except for cycling, and I'm starting to get impatient.  At some point in the near future, if I can't improve sufficiently, I will probably get my hips resurfaced.  Hence my interest in your experience with resveratrol. 

How many days do you think I should remain at 500 mg of resveratrol before I add Lecithin?  And then how many days should I take the combination, before I start upping the resveratrol dosage?

Albert

I can't pretend to be an expert, but in your position, I would immediately add lecithin.
At the least, I would double the dose after a week, and double again in another week, though given the phase 1 results from Sirtris, there is likely no downside to increasing your dose to two grams a day with lecithin as a carrier. You can increase beyond that if you are seeing results, but want things to move faster.

[whentnc]

Can someone tell me how much of the following would be needed for 100 grams of 98% Resveratrol?
sublingual formula
(4mL:4mL:2mL) glycerol:ethanol:propylene glycol

Obviously I would want the solution next to the point of saturation.
What ratio of Resveratrol to Acetyl L-Carnitine would be optimum.
(I read ALCAR is as good or better than quercetin) however, maybe I should do it .5, .25, .25 ----- All suggestions Appreciated.

[health_nutty]

Can someone tell me how much of the following would be needed for 100 grams of 98% Resveratrol?
                  sublingual formula
(4mL:4mL:2mL) glycerol:ethanol:propylene glycol

Obviously I would want the solution next to the point of saturation. 
What ratio of Resveratrol to Acetyl L-Carnitine would be optimum.
(I read ALCAR is as good or better than quercetin) however, maybe I should do it .5, .25, .25 ----- All suggestions Appreciated.

Where did you read about ALCAR with resveratrol?

[niner]

Yeah, what health_nutty said. I've never seen ALCAR come up in relation to resveratrol. Quercetin may improve resveratrol bioavailability by inhibiting its glucuronidation and sulfation, but I'm not aware that ALCAR does anything for it.

If your ethanol is dry, I've read it will hold 50 mg rsv per millilitre. Water in the ethanol will suppress this. I don't know the solubility of rsv in the two glycols, but I would speculate that it's less than ethanol, due to their higher ratio of hydroxyls to carbons. RSV solubility in water is very low, 0.03 mg/ml. These solubility numbers are from the not necessarily authoritative http://www.search.co...nce/Resveratrol.

For a sublingual (or transdermal) formulation, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to acidify the mixture a bit with a weak acid (white vinegar, ascorbic acid?) to make sure the resveratrol doesn't ionize. Ionized substances tend not to be absorbed. The pKa of the most acidic proton on resveratrol is 9.14 +/- 0.2 (http://ntp.niehs.nih...resveratrol.pdf) and the pH of saliva is normally around 7.4, I think, so the resveratrol should be 1.8% ionized. (ionization calculator at http://www.manuelsweb.com/pka.htm) If you use the low end of the pKa range and a pH of 7.5, it would be 3.5% ionized. Thus acidification could help, but only a little. You would not want to eat a Tums shortly before trying sublingual resveratrol though.