117 replies to this topic

[aLurker]

Wow, some smart people on this site. It looks like the magnesium malate I just bought is not that good after all. I've always used the chelated version. But if you guys are really into the highest absorption rates, they do make transdermal magnesium. They sell it at puritan.com it's about $25 for a 2 month supply, not bad really. Aspartate should come down in price I'm guessing as the glycene version seems to be all the rage now.

I can't seem to find any peer reviewed studies on transdermal magnesium indicating it would be superior to oral intake in any way. If you can let me know. Kthnx.

Isn't is common knowledge a transermal is more effective anyway? When experts such as Charles Poliquin say transdermal magnesium is the way to go, that's good enough for me.

Perhaps for you. Telling me it is "common knowledge" and appealing to an authority who shamelessly pimps his own products isn't good enough for me.

[ritch]

Wow, some smart people on this site. It looks like the magnesium malate I just bought is not that good after all. I've always used the chelated version. But if you guys are really into the highest absorption rates, they do make transdermal magnesium. They sell it at puritan.com it's about $25 for a 2 month supply, not bad really. Aspartate should come down in price I'm guessing as the glycene version seems to be all the rage now.

I can't seem to find any peer reviewed studies on transdermal magnesium indicating it would be superior to oral intake in any way. If you can let me know. Kthnx.

Isn't is common knowledge a transermal is more effective anyway? When experts such as Charles Poliquin say transdermal magnesium is the way to go, that's good enough for me.

Perhaps for you. Telling me it is "common knowledge" and appealing to an authority who shamelessly pimps his own products isn't good enough for me.

picky, picky, picky you are...

[Deckah]

Wow, some smart people on this site. It looks like the magnesium malate I just bought is not that good after all. I've always used the chelated version. But if you guys are really into the highest absorption rates, they do make transdermal magnesium. They sell it at puritan.com it's about $25 for a 2 month supply, not bad really. Aspartate should come down in price I'm guessing as the glycene version seems to be all the rage now.

From other measurements of magnesium malate, it seems to be around 15% EM.

Can anyone clarify validity?

[caruga]

I'm trying to get high doses of magnesium in my diet, but it's a struggle with magnesium citrate just because of the laxative effect. Is there any way to counter it? Right now I have to dot about 7 single gram doses throughout the day. If I space them at least an hour inbetween i'm ok. It's just inconvenient and I'd like to take it all at once. I've thought of taking multiple forms but not sure which to go with. Pound for pound citrate seems to have stood above the rest in my research.

[Lufega]

I really, really like magnesium chloride. Of all the options I've tried, that one is definitely the one I feel the most. I just wish someone made capsules with higher doses. I can only find one brand on Iherb in the form of tablets that crumple easily. They also taste like crap.

[rwac]

I really, really like magnesium chloride. Of all the options I've tried, that one is definitely the one I feel the most. I just wish someone made capsules with higher doses. I can only find one brand on Iherb in the form of tablets that crumple easily. They also taste like crap.

You do realize you can get the stuff cheap in bulk ?

[ritch]

I'm trying to get high doses of magnesium in my diet, but it's a struggle with magnesium citrate just because of the laxative effect. Is there any way to counter it? Right now I have to dot about 7 single gram doses throughout the day. If I space them at least an hour inbetween i'm ok. It's just inconvenient and I'd like to take it all at once. I've thought of taking multiple forms but not sure which to go with. Pound for pound citrate seems to have stood above the rest in my research.

I think if you take 7 grams daily of any magnesium you will get the runs... Also that much has to be causing some sort of imbalance in other minerals. Who advised you to take that much?

Edited by ritch, 19 November 2010 - 07:37 AM.

[ritch]

I really, really like magnesium chloride. Of all the options I've tried, that one is definitely the one I feel the most. I just wish someone made capsules with higher doses. I can only find one brand on Iherb in the form of tablets that crumple easily. They also taste like crap.

would around $12 be a good price for 100 tablets dosed at 518 mg be a good price?

[caruga]

I'm trying to get high doses of magnesium in my diet, but it's a struggle with magnesium citrate just because of the laxative effect. Is there any way to counter it? Right now I have to dot about 7 single gram doses throughout the day. If I space them at least an hour inbetween i'm ok. It's just inconvenient and I'd like to take it all at once. I've thought of taking multiple forms but not sure which to go with. Pound for pound citrate seems to have stood above the rest in my research.

I think if you take 7 grams daily of any magnesium you will get the runs... Also that much has to be causing some sort of imbalance in other minerals. Who advised you to take that much?

7 grams magnesium citrate, not elemental magnesium. Works out about a gram of magnesium at that dosage. Spread throughout the day I am fine,as I said it's just tedious having to take it that much since I have to measure it each time.

[chrono]

It looks like the magnesium malate I just bought is not that good after all.

I may have missed something...what's wrong with magnesium malate? It seems to me like the best option for a neutral counterion, i.e. one that doesn't have much other effect in the body. It's probably what I'm going to order once my mag taurate is gone.

I'm trying to get high doses of magnesium in my diet, but it's a struggle with magnesium citrate just because of the laxative effect. Is there any way to counter it?

I don't know of any reasonable way to counter the laxative effect of 6 grams of citric acid, sorry. The obvious answer would seem to be to get a different form of magnesium. Why do you think that magnesium citrate is better than other forms? I would think that general tolerability would be a deciding factor in what the best salt is, regardless of other concerns.

But my understanding is that most organic magnesium salts are equally good in terms of bioavailability: Magnesium bioavailability.

[Deckah]

It looks like the magnesium malate I just bought is not that good after all.

I may have missed something...what's wrong with magnesium malate? It seems to me like the best option for a neutral counterion, i.e. one that doesn't have much other effect in the body. It's probably what I'm going to order once my mag taurate is gone.

Think it was more due to the EM%, which I asked the question earlier. Seems to be around 15% from what I seen prior before find the thread, or I'm just wrong

Edited by Kdvwest, 20 November 2010 - 11:35 PM.

[caruga]

I'm trying to get high doses of magnesium in my diet, but it's a struggle with magnesium citrate just because of the laxative effect. Is there any way to counter it?

I don't know of any reasonable way to counter the laxative effect of 6 grams of citric acid, sorry. The obvious answer would seem to be to get a different form of magnesium. Why do you think that magnesium citrate is better than other forms?

Well I said pound-for-pound. I can get 500 grams citrate (about 80 grams elemental) for £15. It seems my tolerance to the laxative effect has built up slightly; I can take up to 1.5 grams at once now without effect, but above that things start to happen quite abruptly. I'll keep shopping around for better forms at a decent price...

[ritch]

Can you please tell me why you think you need so much magnesium? I'm surprised nobody else has asked this. 7 grams a day still seems nuts to me.

[david ellis]

I'm trying to get high doses of magnesium in my diet, but it's a struggle with magnesium citrate just because of the laxative effect. Is there any way to counter it?

I don't know of any reasonable way to counter the laxative effect of 6 grams of citric acid, sorry. The obvious answer would seem to be to get a different form of magnesium. Why do you think that magnesium citrate is better than other forms?

Well I said pound-for-pound. I can get 500 grams citrate (about 80 grams elemental) for £15. It seems my tolerance to the laxative effect has built up slightly; I can take up to 1.5 grams at once now without effect, but above that things start to happen quite abruptly. I'll keep shopping around for better forms at a decent price...

Citrate thus appears to augment gastrointestinal aluminum absorption markedly, . . .

My consumption of magnesium citrate was the the most likely cause of a high level of serum aluminum. Aluminum deodorants cause me irritation so I don't use them. Baking powder aluminum also seemed unlikely because I consume very little bakery products. So I dropped magnesium citrate.

[caruga]

Can you please tell me why you think you need so much magnesium? I'm surprised nobody else has asked this. 7 grams a day still seems nuts to me.

I already said it was 7 grams magnesium citrate, NOT magnesium. I'm seeking to ingest only a gram of magnesium a day.

[mikey]

I'm adding magnesium to my diet and have read about how there are a lot of different types. Well, it's recommended to get around 400mg/day however I assume this means the amount the body needs, not what's in the pill.

The effectiveness of a magnesium supplement is determined by its...
[1] amount of elemental magnesium in the compound (i.e., the general weight of magnesium to total chelate weight); AND
[2] bioavailability (i.e., amount that is absorbed in the intestines and ultimately available for biological activity in your cells and tissues)

So I'm trying to compile a list...

Magnesium Sulfate ---> Elemental Mag = 10%, Bioavailability = ?
Magnesium Chloride ---> Elemental Mag = 12%, Bioavailability = ?
Magnesium Oxide ---> Elemental Mag = 60%, Bioavailability = 4%
Magnesium Carbonate ---> Elemental Mag = 45%, Bioavailability = 30%
Magnesium Hydroxide ---> Elemental Mag = 42%, Bioavailability = ?

Magnesium Citrate ---> Elemental Mag = 16%, Bioavailability = 90%
Magnesium Lactate ---> Elemental Mag = 12%, Bioavailability = 99%
Magnesium Glycinate ---> Elemental Mag = 18%, Bioavailability = 80%
Magnesium Malate ---> Elemental Mag = 6.5%, Bioavailability = ?
Magnesium Taurate ---> Elemental Mag = 9%, Bioavailability = ?

Alot of those elemental numbers came from this government website so it's probably pretty accurate. But "bioavailability" is apparantly a new concept in the world of magnesium and actual numbers are harder to track down. Lots of websites said that Citrate had the highest levels, but I actually read that Lactate did, with Citrate following behind it. Then, because Malate and Taurate are also Chelates, they have high %'s too.

What threw me for a loop was on Relentless Improvement's website, for Ortho Bone, AOR's data sheet says the following: "But compared to other sources of the mineral, magnesium oxide has extremely low bioavailability (22.8%) .... Magnesium citrate is certainly somewhat better, at 29.64% absorption, but it's still far from the best magnesium you can choose. Much better absorption is available from other forms – especially fully-reacted magnesium aspartate, with a remarkable 41.7% bioavailability."

That really threw me for a loop. Every single site that has listed the bioavailability for oxide has said it is either 4% or below... I have no clue where this 22.8% is that AOR is listing is coming from. If it were that high, it would make Mag-Oxide pretty worthwhile, but we all know it's a worthless supplement even with an elemental of 60%... Also, that 29% for citrate is screwey too... Citrate has the highest or second highest bioavailability... If it were just one weird number from AOR, okay fine. But two really odd numbers makes me believe that AOR's facts are wrong. Anyway, I'm not here to call AOR into question because I love them, I'm just trying to get legit numbers for the rest of the abovelisted magnesium compounds (or correct any mistakes I have) so I can order the proper supplement.

Btw, what is "Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate"? Is that another name for Mag Citrate? I can't quite figure it out.


EDIT: So just for those non-math inclined people out there, this is how you calculate how much mag a pill has:

(mg powder in pill) x (elemental %)/(100) x (bioavailability %)/100 = actual mag you are getting

Example: 500mg Mag Oxide
(500mg) x (60%)/100 x (4%)/100 = 12g of magnesium

Kind of a big difference eh? In my opinion, someone should sue the manufacturers for false advertising. Who the hell (Excuse my language) knows this crap?

However, when all is considered mag oxide gives the most delivery for the money.

Attached Files

•  Copy of magnesium delivery efficiency 1-9-04.pdf   17.16KB   32 downloads

[mikey]

However, if one doesn't care about cost per unit delivered - unless magnesium threonate really is the best, probably the most efficiently absorbing magnesium available is Doctor's Best High Absorption 100% Chelated Magnesium, which uses the Albion process of true chelation.

I take 800 mg a day with no bowel tolerance effect.

The claim that magnesium threonate is the "Only form of magnesium shown to cross the blood-brain barrier to promote optimum levels within the brain" sounds like a misrepresentation.

[mikey]

Around 2008, I was told by Dr. Glen Aukerman http://www.fammed.oh...10181.cfm that

Actually the magneisum oxide has been used for health for thousands of year versus the others that are 'marketed' as better. All the others are used for laxatives and as bowel preps which attests to their lack of absorption. We have found the oxide as the only reliable form for absorption but none raise the blood level since that is tightly controlled and the last place to show elevation or depletion of the body magnesium stores.

Also around 2008, I was told the following from the Life Extension Foundation Advisor hotline...

Magnesium citrate is better absorbed than magnesium oxide (about 70% vs. 30%). Therefore, for each milligram of elemental magnesium in magnesium citrate, you will get more benefit than from the same amount of magnesium in magnesium oxide. However, magnesium oxide is less expensive, so you will need to decide for yourself how to proceed. Another factor to consider is that because less of the magnesium oxide is assimilated, more remains in the bowel where it can sometimes cause loose stools. All in all, magnesium citrate (whether in Magna Calm or another formulation) is the better way to go unless the price differential means your choice is oxide or nothing.

In 2010, I received this respons from Paul Mason at www.mgwater.com...

Back in 1997, a researcher at Premier Services (the largest purveyor of agricultural Mg at that time) did research on MgO used for supplementing cattle to prevent The Staggers (grass tetany) which may be similar to delirium tremens in alcoholics, and can be fatal.

He found that the bioavailability of MgO depended on the surface area of the granules, and that he could greatly increase the bio-availability of MgO by finely sintering it during the manufacturing process. He noted that the MgO used in human supplement pills were coarsely sintered, and therefore not very bio-available.

I recommend instead Magnesium Citrate dissolved in water, for the highest bioavailability, taken 3 times per day (as magnesium passes through the body in about 8 hours. "Natural Calm" is one brand, available in health food stores or online.

Besides food, which provides men with an average of 327 mg of magnesium per day, I recommend 200 mg of magnesium DISSOLVED IN WATER, in divided doses. Magnesium in water is much more beneficial than magnesium in food, in preventing cardiovascular pathologies.

Here is my latest effort to improve magnesium intakes: www.MgWater.com/fda.html

Perhaps if the cheap oxide form were sintered during manufacturing, this would solve the problem and provide a very cost effective bio-available form of magnesium ? I guess it depends on how expensive the sintering process would be.

This study suggests the oxide form is more poorly absorbed...
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11794633

I think an important question is, what form of magnesium occurs naturally in food and water ? Is that not the magnesium that is probably best since that is what we evolved using ?

Regarding the absorption issues, if the absorption rate of oxide versus citrate is 30% versus 70% respectively, then can't we just increase the oxide dose by 40% and obtain the same benefit as taking a 40% lower dose of citrate ? I don't know how it would work out cost wise.

The bottom line is that your body needs to use a certain amount of magnesium per day. Why can't an optimal dose be determined based on whatever form of magnesium is being used, so that the body gets what it needs regardless of which form is used ? I would like to see a list of different magnesium forms, and the required dose for each form that gives the body what it needs, along with a cost comparison. I think the bottom line is, how much of each different form of magnesium would you need to take to provide the body with what it needs, and what does it cost.

Here is some more info on magnesium...

http://ods.od.nih.go...thProfessional/

http://www.whfoods.c...utrient&dbid=75

http://lpi.oregonsta...rals/magnesium/

Well, this thread is old and dead but I must say there's so much misunderstanding that I'm posting.

First, the most well-absorbed magnesium on the market is Doctor's Best High Absorption 100% Chelated Magnesium.

Next, if you are making multivitamin/mineral formulas magnesium oxide beats the pants off all other forms.

To see my logic check this out.

[dear mrclock]

very good thread and reading through it, it seems many people are still confused and not 100% sure of which mag form is what, best absorption or quality wise still questionable. we probbly need more threads like this on other minerals and vitamins sold seperately out of their bound form in food.
here is what leads me to ask, what magnesium form is found in food naturally ?? perhaps just as complex bounds present in various foods as they are in supplements...

[SeekingSerenity]

What form of magnesium is generally found in foods?

[pamojja]

For example in leafy vegetables magnesium is bound in Chlorophyll.

[dear mrclock]

i dont think there is definative form of mag in foods. its always bounded to various other vitamers, mineral complexes, proteins. not sure how it is ever isolated directly from food...

[mikey]

Also note that, in general, except for vitamin C and calcium, nutrients found in foods tend to NOT absorb as well as the isolated USP-type nutrients found in dietary supplements, because the bonds that hold the nutrient have to be broken to glean the nutrient from the food.

Since digestion is not perfect absorption is less than what happens with an isolate.

See: http://www.michaelmo...absorption.html

Edited by mikey, 04 November 2012 - 12:56 AM.

[mikey]

Ah. Correction: Vitamin B12 also absorbs equally from food or the isolated USP-type.

[dear mrclock]

the site didnt mention magnesium

Probiotics Cause Decreases In The Amounts Of Most Nutrients

this part i dont understand. how can probiotics do this ? changes reasons we should be taking them. i always thought positive bacteria in our gut helps us produce, absorp more nutrients ?

Edited by dear mrclock, 04 November 2012 - 01:49 AM.

[mikey]

More folic acid can be produced with probiotics, but the little critters are aggressively hungry and use up multiple nutrients as they eat to survive and so there are less of the nutrients they consume.

This shows that the companies that promote their "whole-food-nutrients-re-natured-with-probiotics" are just doing rather deceptive marketing with no science to support what they say.

Probiotics do help digestion/conversion of carbs and protein in milk. And they do compete with harmful organisms in the GI tract. And they help in the generation of serotonin in the intestines...

But their value is not in helping us absorb vitamins and minerals. That's just silly marketing nonsense.

As to the site not mentioning magnesium, I wrote that article in 2008.

My memory is that I didn't find quality comparative data for magnesium.

Perhaps someone else can chime in on this.

But, as a general statement, most nutrients in foods do not absorb as well as isolated USP-type nutrients because what is bonding the nutrient in food has to be broken for the nutrient to be gleaned from the food and digestion is never perfect.

[pamojja]

Interesting, thanks for compiling. For me specially this:

Some Food Materials That Can Inhibit Nutrient Absorption: Yeast (Saccharomyces Cerevisiae)
One food material that some manufacturers include in the products that exhibits decreased absorption of an important nutrient it contains is yeast. Folic acid is a nutrient that is critically needed by pregnant mothers because it is proven to reduce birth defects with the reduction of birth defects being greater at higher doses. Early studies (1947, 1952) showed that the folic acid contained in a food-type yeast (Sacchromyces cerevisiae) exhibited very poor absorption compared to pure USP-type folic acid. (8,9,20,21,22,23) Further studies determined that the digestion of folic acid in yeast is compromised in the stomach by a protein that binds folic acid into the yeast called gamma glutamyl peptide. Gamma glutamyl peptide is not digestable in human stomachs. (21,22,25)
One study stated, “Yeast folic acid is [absorbed] only one-third as well as [USP-type folic acid].” (22) Because “gastric juice and duodenal fluid are inactive against the gamma glutamyl peptide chain of yeast folic acid digestion of yeast folic acid cannot occur in the stomach, but must take place in the jejunum in the intestine.” (20,24,25) Yeast is known as a poor source of absorbable folic acid and is stated to be “poorly representative of natural dietary folic acid.” (23) Therefore, yeast-derived folic acid would be a poor source of folic acid for pregnant mothers. However, another study stated that folic acid in other foods, in general, “…is not as available as [USP-type folic acid].” (25) Food sources of folic acid are generally about 40 percent less digestable and absorbable than pure, isolated USP-type folic acid. (9,10,11,12)

Because when I started to monitor my nutrient intake from diet and and factored in the average absorption rates for individual nutrients (unlike cronometer,) - as about 60% for folates from diet - I ended up severely deficient in quite some of them, especially folate. I remedied that by adding nutritional yeast, the only kind of food with it's exceptionally high B vitamins content which does make a huge difference with a few grams added... after all, maybe only half that much.

Considering much of nutritional science still in infancy, I'm also pretty certain that not all nutrients with beneficial health effects have even been discovered, and therefore still think the best idea to get as many (unknown) nutrients from diet as possible ..beside supplementation of the already known.

As for example with the magnesium in chlorophyll, though the magnesium in it might be much less bio-available, but then the chlorophyll has it's own health benefits.

Edited by pamojja, 04 November 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[smithx]

the most well-absorbed magnesium on the market is Doctor's Best High Absorption 100% Chelated Magnesium.

Upon what do you base this statement? Has the product been tested in a published study?

[hav]

However, if one doesn't care about cost per unit delivered - unless magnesium threonate really is the best, probably the most efficiently absorbing magnesium available is Doctor's Best High Absorption 100% Chelated Magnesium, which uses the Albion process of true chelation.

...

Bluebonnet also makes a Chelated Magnesium containing the same Albion glycinate and its available on Amazon. Note that Bluebonnet also provides 200 mg per serving but in a single vcap rather than the 2-tablet Doctor's Best serving size, making it a bit more cost effective per serving. And easier to swallow.

Smithx, here's a study comparing a glycinate with the oxide form: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7815675

Howard

Edited by hav, 04 November 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[dear mrclock]

Interesting, thanks for compiling. For me specially this:

Some Food Materials That Can Inhibit Nutrient Absorption: Yeast (Saccharomyces Cerevisiae)
One food material that some manufacturers include in the products that exhibits decreased absorption of an important nutrient it contains is yeast. Folic acid is a nutrient that is critically needed by pregnant mothers because it is proven to reduce birth defects with the reduction of birth defects being greater at higher doses. Early studies (1947, 1952) showed that the folic acid contained in a food-type yeast (Sacchromyces cerevisiae) exhibited very poor absorption compared to pure USP-type folic acid. (8,9,20,21,22,23) Further studies determined that the digestion of folic acid in yeast is compromised in the stomach by a protein that binds folic acid into the yeast called gamma glutamyl peptide. Gamma glutamyl peptide is not digestable in human stomachs. (21,22,25)
One study stated, “Yeast folic acid is [absorbed] only one-third as well as [USP-type folic acid].” (22) Because “gastric juice and duodenal fluid are inactive against the gamma glutamyl peptide chain of yeast folic acid digestion of yeast folic acid cannot occur in the stomach, but must take place in the jejunum in the intestine.” (20,24,25) Yeast is known as a poor source of absorbable folic acid and is stated to be “poorly representative of natural dietary folic acid.” (23) Therefore, yeast-derived folic acid would be a poor source of folic acid for pregnant mothers. However, another study stated that folic acid in other foods, in general, “…is not as available as [USP-type folic acid].” (25) Food sources of folic acid are generally about 40 percent less digestable and absorbable than pure, isolated USP-type folic acid. (9,10,11,12)

Because when I started to monitor my nutrient intake from diet and and factored in the average absorption rates for individual nutrients (unlike cronometer,) - as about 60% for folates from diet - I ended up severely deficient in quite some of them, especially folate. I remedied that by adding nutritional yeast, the only kind of food with it's exceptionally high B vitamins content which does make a huge difference with a few grams added... after all, maybe only half that much.

Considering much of nutritional science still in infancy, I'm also pretty certain that not all nutrients with beneficial health effects have even been discovered, and therefore still think the best idea to get as many (unknown) nutrients from diet as possible ..beside supplementation of the already known.

As for example with the magnesium in chlorophyll, though the magnesium in it might be much less bio-available, but then the chlorophyll has it's own health benefits.

how do you monitor your nutrient intake ? how do you know what you are deficient in and what is best absorbed or not ?

probably in the future some smart phone measuring our nutrient balance and intake. i doubt anyone can know what nutrients he needs, the balance of, if any deficiency currently.