117 replies to this topic

[pamojja]

Why not citrate?

Because apparently magnesium citrate doesn't raise RBC magnesium levels as consistently as malate.

[mikey]

VSL#3 - each packet contains 450 billion organisms and it cost about half what you'd have to pay to get what it gives you by adding up a bunch of other lower potency products.

I've taken it with no results whatsoever. If 99% of the 450 billion is destroyed by stomach acid, that's only a net 4.5 billion, easily surpassed by other more affordable and hardy probiotic supplements.

What results were you looking for?

It gave me back my high singing range, which I had lost to a croak for the last twenty years.

Four days of VSL#3 and I can sing high notes again. It's dramatic.

So, I know it worked.

And I've taken other notable brands of acidophilus over many years with none of them doing this.

[mikey]

heh interesting. too bad the probiotic you showed is SO EXPENSIVE. its crazy. i can find much cheaper ones i think. and yeh, the serotonin link... still not sure how much of a real affect has on the brain but there are just speculations so far. as serotonin cannot really cross the blood brain barrier by itself. also, the little fuckers can be quite needy for food. having extra baggager on you isnt always that awesome me thinks

Actually, it's the least expensive acidophilus on the planet when you consider how many live organisms you get for the dollar.

I can buy Jarrow products wholesale - 50% off - and if I buy their highest potency acidophilus in quantities to equal VSL#3, it would cost me $140 for what VSL#3 costs about $101, including shipping. That's $280 to a regular consumer who is paying retail.

If you're paying retail, VSL#3 costs much, much less than anything you can buy.

But if the price to buy a box seems like too much, just consider using it over a period of months and you save a lot of money for what you get.

As well, you have an acidophilus that has been validated in seven quality published studies that confirmed it's effectiveness addressing serious medical conditions.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10468688
http://www.ncbi.nlm.... Microbiol 2001
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17344505
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12190202
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16401690
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20018654
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22363592

Otherwise, what you buy in the store could or could not have enough active organisms to benefit you.

VSL#3 is delivered fresh to your door. It is expected to be used for medical conditions, so you can be assured that it delivers what's on the label.

One study found greatly diminished acidophilus counts in products that you buy in stores, so buyer beware. And especially don't buy so-called "stabilized" acidophilus, that is supposed to be able to sit on shelves without being refrigerated.
You are likely to get no live acidophilus.

[mikey]

The "uselessness" of MgO is one of the most deeply entrenched myths in the Internet Supplement Community. Most of the literature is misleading, since it looks only at a short timescale. However, MgO takes a long time to be fully absorbed. This short paper lays it out- it was in German, and since it was so short I'm pasting the entire Google translation here. I highlighted the key points in red. If you read German, here's the source.

Bioavailability of organic and inorganic compounds

Von Sighart Golf

Of magnesium preparations, there is a whole series. They contain the mineral in an organic or inorganic compounds. For the absorption of the compound Magnesium plays no role.

A magnesium deficiency can be compensated by changes in diet on whole foods, the consumption of magnesium-rich mineral waters (more than 100 mg of magnesium / l) or the use of high-quality magnesium products. No or only a minor role played by the question of whether the used inorganic magnesium preparation (for example, chloride or oxide) or organic anions (such as citrate or aspartate) contains. The assumption of organic magnesium salts is the "better" because bioavailability magnesium is widespread, but not really. In fact, numerous studies show with valid measurement methods that all the examined magnesium compounds both pharmacologically and biologically and clinically equivalent. Although inorganic magnesium salts are chemically less soluble, but chemists measure the solubility of a salt in laboratory conditions (such as pH 7, 20 ° C, 1 bar, 1-molar, closed system), in the body but there are other conditions.

In the 1970s to 1990s, the Federal Health Office (BGA) has called on the market for magnesium supplements bioavailability studies, the study design of Lücker (1) was accepted by the BGA. In these studies were the magnesium storage study persons initially saturated with magnesium-rich food and after subsequent administration of the test formulations, the magnesium magnesium excretion measured in the urine. The studies showed that the tested availability of various inorganic and organic magnesium supplements under equivalence aspects must be considered within the range of 70 to 143 percent as bioequivalent. The intestinal absorption of magnesium is to Lücker independent of the administered type of connection.

Studies about absorbability

In recent years more publications have appeared with some different statements that magnesium would be better absorbed from organic and inorganic compounds. The listed studies point except the study of Coudray (2) However, any material weaknesses. Do you have a statement to better bioavailability of magnesium preparation, the following deficiencies to not. In the studies by Lindberg (3), fine (4), Firoz (5) and Walker (6), the urine collection period was less than one day and was thus not sufficient, since in this time, a substantial portion of the inorganic magnesium compounds not yet is absorbed. In the studies by Walker (6), Mühlbauer (7), Lindberg (3) the pre-analysis for the determination of magnesium in the urine was incorrect: The urine was not previously acidified with concentrated hydrochloric acid, 1 percent. Of the data necessary for calculating a magnesium balance specimen (three-day urine, three-day stool, serum / plasma) was missing in the studies by Lindberg (3), Walker (6) and Mühlbauer (7) at least one specimen .

Only the study by Coudray (2), which was carried out in rats, meets the above requirements for the determination of a complete balance of the magnesium uptake, retention and excretion. The test groups did not differ in body weight, intestinal solubility of magnesium (necessary for the absorption), magnesium in serum, erythrocytes and femur. In the absorption, excretion and retention of magnesium (which remained in the body), there was, however, in this study between MgO, MgCl _2, MgSO _4, MgCO _3, Mg acetate, Mg-pidolate, Mg-citrate, magnesium lactate and magnesium aspartate no significant differences.

A dynamic system

Magnesium can be absorbed from an almost insoluble compound such as magnesium in the human body. Basis of the absorption of magnesium from magnesium oxide is the law of mass action and processes in a dynamic system, such as at the contact point between the chyme and the epithelial cells of the intestine. Magnesium oxide is insoluble in water, but only sparingly soluble in water. It solves the following equation: 2 MgO + H ₂ O -> Mg (OH) _2. Because of the equilibrium dissociation constant of this reaction is far on the side of magnesium oxide and water. Once after the above mentioned law primarily gone into solution magnesium is absorbed by the intestinal epithelium, the law of mass action has been disturbed as ever magnesium is removed from the balance. Thus, in the gut immediately released from the magnesium salt, which is absorbed in all areas of the intestine with the water flow. This process is continuous throughout the transit time of Nahrungsbreies who can stomach, intestine and colon take about two to three days. After resorption, which lasts approximately magnesia also two to three days, wherein magnesium citrate but only five hours, it is possible to the human body, magnesium from magnesium oxide actually comparable extent as receive from other compounds.

No matter what product is used, it must be taken over a long period, because magnesium remains only in the human body, even if there are molecules that bind to the mineral. These include ATP or DNA. The first biochemical adaptations improved magnesium supply, that is the provision of sufficient amounts of binding molecules can be observed after about four weeks. Also in this regard, inorganic and organic magnesium compounds act the same.

Literature

• Lücker, PW, et al., Mg Bulletin 15 (1993) 132
  
• Coudray, C., et al. Mg Research 18 (2005) 215-223.
  
• Lindberg, JS, et al., J. Am. Coll. Nutr. 9 (1990) 38-55.
  
• Fine, KD, et al., Clin. Invest. 88 (1991) 396-402.
  
• Firoz, M., et al., Mg Research 14 (2001) 257-262.
  
• Walker, AF, et al. Mg Research 16 (2003) 183-191.
  
• Mühlbauer, B., et al., J. Clin. Pharmacol. 40 (1991) 437-438.

Gotta love Niner! He hit it out of the park. I bow to Niner.

As well, Mg Oxide is by far the best buy in Mg delivered, when one does a cost/absorption analysis, which I have - was done for a supplement company as analysis for "what form of magnesium gives the most bang for the buck."

It's magnesium oxide, a far better buy than citrate, etc....

See: http://www.michaelmo...entCarriers.pdf (reposted)

[mikey]

Nutritional yeast is a scam. It is fortified with sprayed on synthetic B-vitamins and it also contains de jure MSG.

I wasn't aware that brewers yeast for some reason doesn't seem to be considered as nutritional yeast in the English language, as I found out now. Does anyone know the difference?

Brewer's yeast, which I actually had in mind, is naturally high in B vitamins. If in doubt one could always check the label and compare it's B vitamins content with unfortified brewers yeast.

The trouble with trying to get folic acid from yeast is that it is bound in yeast by gamma glutamyl peptide, which the human stomach cannot digest. Therefore, the bond has to be broken further down in the intestine, inefficiently.


Rosenberg I H. Absorption and malabsorption of folates. Clin Haem, October, 1976, 5(3):589-618.

Swenseid ME, et al. Metabolic function of pteroylglutamic acid and its hexaglutamyl conjugate. II. Urinary excretion studies on normal persons. Effect of a conjugase inhibitor. J Lab Clin Med 32:23-27, 1947. - stated, “Yeast folic acid is [absorbed] only one-third as well as [USP-type folic acid].

Bernstein LH, et al. Gamma glutamyl carboxypeptidase (conjugase), the folic acid-releasing enzyme of intestinal mucosa. Am J Clin Nutr 1970 Jul;23(7):919-25.

Edited by mikey, 10 November 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[mikey]

My biochemist father is an occasional guest of the Orthomolecular Medical Society of San Francisco.

The members are mostly medical doctor practitioners who use progressive nutrition in treating their patients.

About ten years ago the focus of a meeting was magnesium.

After much discussion, the group agreed that the most desirable form was magnesium oxide, because it required the least amount of tablets and its effects were predictable.

Doctors know that "compliance" is the most important consideration when they deal with patients. If it's hard to do, compliance suffers.

Therefore, they look for nutrients that give the most delivery in the least amount of tablets, hence magnesium oxide being the preferred form.

[stablemind]

Does anyone know how long it takes for Magnesium to upregulate the NMDA receptors so that it has an impact on short term memory? I'm taking 200mg Magnesium Glycinate every night. I feel 400mg makes me too drowsy the next morning.

[stablemind]

My biochemist father is an occasional guest of the Orthomolecular Medical Society of San Francisco.

The members are mostly medical doctor practitioners who use progressive nutrition in treating their patients.

About ten years ago the focus of a meeting was magnesium.

After much discussion, the group agreed that the most desirable form was magnesium oxide, because it required the least amount of tablets and its effects were predictable.

Doctors know that "compliance" is the most important consideration when they deal with patients. If it's hard to do, compliance suffers.

Therefore, they look for nutrients that give the most delivery in the least amount of tablets, hence magnesium oxide being the preferred form.

So they chose one of the least bioavailable types of magnesium just because they didn't want to tell patients to take a few extra pills? They must be prescribing some massive pills in that case because magnesium oxide has a bioavailability somewhere around 4%.

[mikey]

4% is wrong. Didn't you read Niner's post (above) about Mg oxide? Quality comparative studies show Mg oxide to absorb in the 20+ percentages, 20+% less than Mg citrate, but still delivering a significant amount of Mg to tissues.

You should be skeptical of everything you read, especially studies that make such extreme statements - and learn to weigh them so that you get to the real data.

See this and you'll find that the study that's referenced showed that Mg oxide absorbed somewhat less than Mg citrate but the cost for Mg delivered favored Mg oxide.

Then re-consider that what you've taken as gospel might be in error.

The study that said that Mg oxide absorbed at 4% did not allow enough time to fully consider the amount of Mg that was absorbed.

As it is with calcium, some forms deliver more quickly so if a study limits the time it measures absorption it will fail in correctly measuring total absorption.

[dear mrclock]

someone has to gather all the results combined from the thread and articles and post the bioavailabity of all magnesium at the end of this thread.

oxide and citrate in my experience give me diarrhea in amount high enough

[pamojja]

The trouble with trying to get folic acid from yeast is that it is bound in yeast by gamma glutamyl peptide, which the human stomach cannot digest. Therefore, the bond has to be broken further down in the intestine, inefficiently.

Well, as already said, my point is to get as many nutrients from as much as possible varied diet (I'm after the still to be discovered vitamins too..). And comparing the about 60% absorption of folates from food in general, only 30% from yeast still gives the most per gram.

If it only would be as with magnesium oxide I would reconsider But since a couple of grams of mg malate or brewers yeast still only displace minuscule amount of an otherwise varied diet, I prefer to stick with that.

[pamojja]

Why not citrate?

Because apparently magnesium citrate doesn't raise RBC magnesium levels as consistently as malate.

someone has to gather all the results combined from the thread and articles and post the bioavailabity of all magnesium at the end of this thread.

oxide and citrate in my experience give me diarrhea in amount high enough

That's actually the experience of Dr. Davis too, and the reason for recommending malate instead for raising RBC levels consistently.

So one has the option to either believe this or that study for creating such a bioavailability list, but because of different individual conditions (for example diarrhea with certain compounds.) it always boils down to measuring RBC magnesium for being sure that a particular form helped to raise one's own body stores.

[niner]

it always boils down to measuring RBC magnesium for being sure that a particular form helped to raise one's own body stores.

Exactly. The precise details of the pharmacokinetics are not really what we care about. We care about the clinical outcomes, side effects, cost, and ease of use. There might be some effects that we care about, like magnesium levels in the brain, that are very hard to measure, and may or may not be reflected in RBC Mg levels.

[Zwergpirat]

The "uselessness" of MgO is one of the most deeply entrenched myths in the Internet Supplement Community. Most of the literature is misleading, since it looks only at a short timescale. However, MgO takes a long time to be fully absorbed. This short paper lays it out- it was in German, and since it was so short I'm pasting the entire Google translation here. I highlighted the key points in red. If you read German, here's the source.

Bioavailability of organic and inorganic compounds

Von Sighart Golf

Of magnesium preparations, there is a whole series. They contain the mineral in an organic or inorganic compounds. For the absorption of the compound Magnesium plays no role.

A magnesium deficiency can be compensated by changes in diet on whole foods, the consumption of magnesium-rich mineral waters (more than 100 mg of magnesium / l) or the use of high-quality magnesium products. No or only a minor role played by the question of whether the used inorganic magnesium preparation (for example, chloride or oxide) or organic anions (such as citrate or aspartate) contains. The assumption of organic magnesium salts is the "better" because bioavailability magnesium is widespread, but not really. In fact, numerous studies show with valid measurement methods that all the examined magnesium compounds both pharmacologically and biologically and clinically equivalent. Although inorganic magnesium salts are chemically less soluble, but chemists measure the solubility of a salt in laboratory conditions (such as pH 7, 20 ° C, 1 bar, 1-molar, closed system), in the body but there are other conditions.

In the 1970s to 1990s, the Federal Health Office (BGA) has called on the market for magnesium supplements bioavailability studies, the study design of Lücker (1) was accepted by the BGA. In these studies were the magnesium storage study persons initially saturated with magnesium-rich food and after subsequent administration of the test formulations, the magnesium magnesium excretion measured in the urine. The studies showed that the tested availability of various inorganic and organic magnesium supplements under equivalence aspects must be considered within the range of 70 to 143 percent as bioequivalent. The intestinal absorption of magnesium is to Lücker independent of the administered type of connection.

Studies about absorbability

In recent years more publications have appeared with some different statements that magnesium would be better absorbed from organic and inorganic compounds. The listed studies point except the study of Coudray (2) However, any material weaknesses. Do you have a statement to better bioavailability of magnesium preparation, the following deficiencies to not. In the studies by Lindberg (3), fine (4), Firoz (5) and Walker (6), the urine collection period was less than one day and was thus not sufficient, since in this time, a substantial portion of the inorganic magnesium compounds not yet is absorbed. In the studies by Walker (6), Mühlbauer (7), Lindberg (3) the pre-analysis for the determination of magnesium in the urine was incorrect: The urine was not previously acidified with concentrated hydrochloric acid, 1 percent. Of the data necessary for calculating a magnesium balance specimen (three-day urine, three-day stool, serum / plasma) was missing in the studies by Lindberg (3), Walker (6) and Mühlbauer (7) at least one specimen .

Only the study by Coudray (2), which was carried out in rats, meets the above requirements for the determination of a complete balance of the magnesium uptake, retention and excretion. The test groups did not differ in body weight, intestinal solubility of magnesium (necessary for the absorption), magnesium in serum, erythrocytes and femur. In the absorption, excretion and retention of magnesium (which remained in the body), there was, however, in this study between MgO, MgCl _2, MgSO _4, MgCO _3, Mg acetate, Mg-pidolate, Mg-citrate, magnesium lactate and magnesium aspartate no significant differences.

A dynamic system

Magnesium can be absorbed from an almost insoluble compound such as magnesium in the human body. Basis of the absorption of magnesium from magnesium oxide is the law of mass action and processes in a dynamic system, such as at the contact point between the chyme and the epithelial cells of the intestine. Magnesium oxide is insoluble in water, but only sparingly soluble in water. It solves the following equation: 2 MgO + H ₂ O -> Mg (OH) _2. Because of the equilibrium dissociation constant of this reaction is far on the side of magnesium oxide and water. Once after the above mentioned law primarily gone into solution magnesium is absorbed by the intestinal epithelium, the law of mass action has been disturbed as ever magnesium is removed from the balance. Thus, in the gut immediately released from the magnesium salt, which is absorbed in all areas of the intestine with the water flow. This process is continuous throughout the transit time of Nahrungsbreies who can stomach, intestine and colon take about two to three days. After resorption, which lasts approximately magnesia also two to three days, wherein magnesium citrate but only five hours, it is possible to the human body, magnesium from magnesium oxide actually comparable extent as receive from other compounds.

No matter what product is used, it must be taken over a long period, because magnesium remains only in the human body, even if there are molecules that bind to the mineral. These include ATP or DNA. The first biochemical adaptations improved magnesium supply, that is the provision of sufficient amounts of binding molecules can be observed after about four weeks. Also in this regard, inorganic and organic magnesium compounds act the same.

Literature

• Lücker, PW, et al., Mg Bulletin 15 (1993) 132
  
• Coudray, C., et al. Mg Research 18 (2005) 215-223.
  
• Lindberg, JS, et al., J. Am. Coll. Nutr. 9 (1990) 38-55.
  
• Fine, KD, et al., Clin. Invest. 88 (1991) 396-402.
  
• Firoz, M., et al., Mg Research 14 (2001) 257-262.
  
• Walker, AF, et al. Mg Research 16 (2003) 183-191.
  
• Mühlbauer, B., et al., J. Clin. Pharmacol. 40 (1991) 437-438.

Gotta love Niner! He hit it out of the park. I bow to Niner.

As well, Mg Oxide is by far the best buy in Mg delivered, when one does a cost/absorption analysis, which I have - was done for a supplement company as analysis for "what form of magnesium gives the most bang for the buck."

It's magnesium oxide, a far better buy than citrate, etc....

See: http://www.michaelmo...entCarriers.pdf (reposted)

No credit for me? ;-) ;-) http://www.longecity...te/#entry536840

[anagram]

I have seen magnesium supplements with rare earth metals in them, probably cerium oxide, and something called an amino-ate complex? Needless to say taking it was sketchy, but it cleared up my head very well.

Edited by anagram, 10 November 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[mikey]

someone has to gather all the results combined from the thread and articles and post the bioavailabity of all magnesium at the end of this thread.

oxide and citrate in my experience give me diarrhea in amount high enough

I was involved in a study of 1,800 people that found that magnesium at about 800 mg/day would cause diarrhea in a small percent of the population, where there was none at 700 mg.

I don't really think that the carrier has that much to do with it. Magnesium relaxes the intestines. Once it's in the body, separated from its carrier it's all just magnesium.

Enough of it and muscles - like intestinal muscles - tend to relax = diarrhea.

The "uselessness" of MgO is one of the most deeply entrenched myths in the Internet Supplement Community. Most of the literature is misleading, since it looks only at a short timescale. However, MgO takes a long time to be fully absorbed. This short paper lays it out- it was in German, and since it was so short I'm pasting the entire Google translation here. I highlighted the key points in red. If you read German, here's the source.

Bioavailability of organic and inorganic compounds

Von Sighart Golf

Of magnesium preparations, there is a whole series. They contain the mineral in an organic or inorganic compounds. For the absorption of the compound Magnesium plays no role.

A magnesium deficiency can be compensated by changes in diet on whole foods, the consumption of magnesium-rich mineral waters (more than 100 mg of magnesium / l) or the use of high-quality magnesium products. No or only a minor role played by the question of whether the used inorganic magnesium preparation (for example, chloride or oxide) or organic anions (such as citrate or aspartate) contains. The assumption of organic magnesium salts is the "better" because bioavailability magnesium is widespread, but not really. In fact, numerous studies show with valid measurement methods that all the examined magnesium compounds both pharmacologically and biologically and clinically equivalent. Although inorganic magnesium salts are chemically less soluble, but chemists measure the solubility of a salt in laboratory conditions (such as pH 7, 20 ° C, 1 bar, 1-molar, closed system), in the body but there are other conditions.

In the 1970s to 1990s, the Federal Health Office (BGA) has called on the market for magnesium supplements bioavailability studies, the study design of Lücker (1) was accepted by the BGA. In these studies were the magnesium storage study persons initially saturated with magnesium-rich food and after subsequent administration of the test formulations, the magnesium magnesium excretion measured in the urine. The studies showed that the tested availability of various inorganic and organic magnesium supplements under equivalence aspects must be considered within the range of 70 to 143 percent as bioequivalent. The intestinal absorption of magnesium is to Lücker independent of the administered type of connection.

Studies about absorbability

In recent years more publications have appeared with some different statements that magnesium would be better absorbed from organic and inorganic compounds. The listed studies point except the study of Coudray (2) However, any material weaknesses. Do you have a statement to better bioavailability of magnesium preparation, the following deficiencies to not. In the studies by Lindberg (3), fine (4), Firoz (5) and Walker (6), the urine collection period was less than one day and was thus not sufficient, since in this time, a substantial portion of the inorganic magnesium compounds not yet is absorbed. In the studies by Walker (6), Mühlbauer (7), Lindberg (3) the pre-analysis for the determination of magnesium in the urine was incorrect: The urine was not previously acidified with concentrated hydrochloric acid, 1 percent. Of the data necessary for calculating a magnesium balance specimen (three-day urine, three-day stool, serum / plasma) was missing in the studies by Lindberg (3), Walker (6) and Mühlbauer (7) at least one specimen .

Only the study by Coudray (2), which was carried out in rats, meets the above requirements for the determination of a complete balance of the magnesium uptake, retention and excretion. The test groups did not differ in body weight, intestinal solubility of magnesium (necessary for the absorption), magnesium in serum, erythrocytes and femur. In the absorption, excretion and retention of magnesium (which remained in the body), there was, however, in this study between MgO, MgCl _2, MgSO _4, MgCO _3, Mg acetate, Mg-pidolate, Mg-citrate, magnesium lactate and magnesium aspartate no significant differences.

A dynamic system

Magnesium can be absorbed from an almost insoluble compound such as magnesium in the human body. Basis of the absorption of magnesium from magnesium oxide is the law of mass action and processes in a dynamic system, such as at the contact point between the chyme and the epithelial cells of the intestine. Magnesium oxide is insoluble in water, but only sparingly soluble in water. It solves the following equation: 2 MgO + H ₂ O -> Mg (OH) _2. Because of the equilibrium dissociation constant of this reaction is far on the side of magnesium oxide and water. Once after the above mentioned law primarily gone into solution magnesium is absorbed by the intestinal epithelium, the law of mass action has been disturbed as ever magnesium is removed from the balance. Thus, in the gut immediately released from the magnesium salt, which is absorbed in all areas of the intestine with the water flow. This process is continuous throughout the transit time of Nahrungsbreies who can stomach, intestine and colon take about two to three days. After resorption, which lasts approximately magnesia also two to three days, wherein magnesium citrate but only five hours, it is possible to the human body, magnesium from magnesium oxide actually comparable extent as receive from other compounds.

No matter what product is used, it must be taken over a long period, because magnesium remains only in the human body, even if there are molecules that bind to the mineral. These include ATP or DNA. The first biochemical adaptations improved magnesium supply, that is the provision of sufficient amounts of binding molecules can be observed after about four weeks. Also in this regard, inorganic and organic magnesium compounds act the same.

Literature

• Lücker, PW, et al., Mg Bulletin 15 (1993) 132
  
• Coudray, C., et al. Mg Research 18 (2005) 215-223.
  
• Lindberg, JS, et al., J. Am. Coll. Nutr. 9 (1990) 38-55.
  
• Fine, KD, et al., Clin. Invest. 88 (1991) 396-402.
  
• Firoz, M., et al., Mg Research 14 (2001) 257-262.
  
• Walker, AF, et al. Mg Research 16 (2003) 183-191.
  
• Mühlbauer, B., et al., J. Clin. Pharmacol. 40 (1991) 437-438.

Gotta love Niner! He hit it out of the park. I bow to Niner.

As well, Mg Oxide is by far the best buy in Mg delivered, when one does a cost/absorption analysis, which I have - was done for a supplement company as analysis for "what form of magnesium gives the most bang for the buck."

It's magnesium oxide, a far better buy than citrate, etc....

See: http://www.michaelmo...entCarriers.pdf (reposted)

No credit for me? ;-) ;-) http://www.longecity...te/#entry536840

Yes, Kudos to you!

[niner]

No credit for me? ;-) ;-) http://www.longecity...te/#entry536840

Sorry Zwergpirat, I had bookmarked the site, and knew I'd seen it in a post here but didn't remember exactly where. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

[dear mrclock]

im still confused as to what type of magneisum is found in mineral waters and its bioavailability

[MachineGhostX]

im still confused as to what type of magneisum is found in mineral waters and its bioavailability

Carbonate. http://www.mgwater.com/

[hav]

The "uselessness" of MgO is one of the most deeply entrenched myths in the Internet Supplement Community. Most of the literature is misleading, since it looks only at a short timescale. However, MgO takes a long time to be fully absorbed. This short paper lays it out- it was in German, and since it was so short I'm pasting the entire Google translation here. I highlighted the key points in red. If you read German, here's the source.

I think that article is on the mark in finding flaw with most of the studies measuring magnesium bio-availability via simple urinary analysis because they did not do their observations over a long enough time period. But this paper on Magnesium Absorption in Humans (see page 27) suggests the problem with determining magnesium bio-availability via simple urinary analysis is more fundamental than that (emphasis added my me):

Because there is no known regulation for Mg intestinal absorption, and part of the absorbed Mg is presumably absorbed by passive diffusion, Mg excretion is the major pathway of regulating Mg homeostasis. Excretion can be defined as the sum of all pathways by which a nutrient leaves the body, e.g. through urine, endogenous faecal losses, sweat, etc. The major organ for regulating Mg excretion is the kidney. About 70-80% of plasma Mg are ultrafiltrable (see Table 2) and can be removed when the blood is filtered by the kidney. However, only a minor part of this ultrafiltrable Mg is excreted in the urine. In humans, about 20-25% of this ultrafiltrable Mg is reabsorbed by the proximal tubule, 50-60% in the loop of Henle, and 5% in the terminal segments while the remainder (5-20%) is excreted in urine (reviewed by de Rouffignac, 1992; and Quamme, 1993). Based on rat studies, it is assumed that the majority of this re-absorbed Mg is due to passive absorption by the kidney tubule (reviewed by de Rouffignac & Quamme, 1994), even though active transport mechanism have been suggested (reviewed by Quamme & Cole, 2001). Total urinary Mg excretion is in the range of 100-150 mg/day (Wacker, 1980; Aikawa, 1981; Shils, 1998) for an intake of about 300-400 mg Mg. Other routes of Mg excretion play a less important role. Endogenous faecal Mg losses in humans have been estimated to be in the range of 30 mg/day (Slatopolsky, 1984), 7 to 34 (median 11) mg/day (Avioli & Berman, 1966), and 34-60 mg/day (median 47) (Sabatier, 2001), based on radioactive (28Mg) or, in the latter study, stable isotope techniques. Sweat losses under normal thermal conditions (room temperature) have been reported to be in the range of 15-25 mg/ day (reviewed by Seelig, 1964; Durlach, 1988).

Other parts of this paper suggest that the only accurate (as opposed to precise) measure of dietary magnesium absorption over short time periods is to use stable isotope tagging using 2 different isotopes to tag and study orally ingested as well as iv administered magnesium. I think the idea is that there is a need to distinguish magnesium that may already be in the body and end up in the blood and later in the urine from magnesium ingested and excreted during a relatively short observation period. Otherwise you'd probably need to study and track magnesium ingestion and excretion of a period of many months to take into account re-absorption mechanisms which none of these studies seem to want to do.

Btw, I found a study that supports the position that the citrate form has higher bio-availability than both the oxide and amino-acid chelate forms:

Mg citrate found more bioavailable than other Mg preparations in a randomised, double blind study
Magnesium Research. Volume 16, Number 3, 183-91, September 2003, ORIGINAL ARTICLE
Author(s) : Ann F Walker, Georgios Marakis, Samantha Christie, Martyn Byng

Published data on the bioavailability of various Mg preparations is too fragmented and scanty to inform proper choice of Mg preparation for clinical studies. In this study, the relative bioavailability of three preparations of Mg (amino‐acid chelate, citrate and oxide) were compared at a daily dose of 300 mg of elemental Mg in 46 healthy individuals. The study was a randomised, double‐blind, placebo‐controlled, parallel intervention, of 60 days duration. Urine, blood and saliva samples were taken at baseline, 24 h after the first Mg supplement was taken (acute‘ supplementation) and after 60 days of daily Mg consumption (chronic‘ supplementation). Results showed that supplementation of the organic forms of Mg (citrate and amino‐acid chelate) showed greater absorption (P ∓ 0.033) at 60 days than MgO, as assessed by the 24‐h urinary Mg excretion. Mg citrate led to the greatest mean serum Mg concentration compared with other treatments following both acute (P ∓ 0.026) and chronic (P ∓ 0.006) supplementation. Furthermore, although mean erythrocyte Mg concentration showed no differences among groups, chronic Mg citrate supplementation resulted in the greatest (P ∓ 0.027) mean salivary Mg concentration compared with all other treatments. Mg oxide supplementation resulted in no differences compared to placebo. We conclude that a daily supplementation with Mg citrate shows superior bioavailability after 60 days of treatment when compared with other treatments studied.

Looks like they only observed simple urinary excretion comparing baseline with 24 hours immediately after treatment began and a 3rd time after 60 days of treatment. Not sure of the value of the saliva and blood level measurements... I get the idea those are almost worthless for determining bioavailibility of magnesium.

Another thought. Make sure you factor in serving size as well as volume when assessing the ergonomics and economics of different formulations. I found I had to take from 2 to 6 large tablets per day of oxides and citrates compared to a single capsule of the glycimate I settled on. I hope they stick with the glycimate in Vimortal II (or whatever the new name ends up) because 6 caps a day of the original Vimortal was already a bit much and I'm hoping for fewer capsules per day, not more.

Howard

[dear mrclock]

im still confused as to what type of magneisum is found in mineral waters and its bioavailability

Carbonate. http://www.mgwater.com/

so is carbonate readily absorbed like few other types of magnesium mentioned on this thread or its not bioavailable at all ?

[zenman]

With regard to forms of magnesium supplements, the closer the stability constant is to zero, the more bioavailable the supplement. Lower stability constants represent soluble complexes, more easily broken down into ionic form for bioavailability. This is important, as we assimilate magnesium not as the magnesium chloride compound, but rather as free magnesium and chloride ions.

 

http://www.ancient-m...#footnote_1_104

 

 

I found that both

Magnesium glutamate 1.90 [essentially ionized but neurotoxic] Magnesium aspartate 2.43 [essentially ionized but neurotoxic]

are neurotoxic.

 

Something to be aware of.

[Vastmandana]

Haven't read thread and this may already have been discussed but the only magnesium I routinely take (beyond ortho core) is L-Threonate, revolutionary MIT discovery which significantly enhances various types of memory/crosses brain barrier... just Google it. LEF has done some lengthy articles on it. Love the powder in Jasmine tea

Edited by Vastmandana, 14 October 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[Juicy]

https://youtu.be/-op01XEQp6Q

[kurdishfella]

When I take the same dose, sometime I feel a little effect other times it has a huge effect. Even though I eat it on an "empty stomach". I think absorption is heavily influenced by energy metablolism from previous days. So if you started eating differently this week as opposed to the past and then ingest magnesium or whatever different amounts will be absorbed depending on your needs. When I take a drug like memantine you would think eating food with it would increase metabolism so more will be faster absorbed before it gets destroyed but less gets absorbed but in a more quality way, dont know how to describe it but the effect is weaker but feels better?

Edited by kurdishfella, 12 April 2021 - 08:04 PM.

[kurdishfella]

Your big intestine also absorbs magnesium and some other but its much less than the small intestine. But a form that makes it the most water soluble would help. and absorption increases in time of deficency

Edited by kurdishfella, 12 August 2021 - 04:56 AM.

[kurdishfella]

Best forms are liquid instead of capsule powder form as they have to be broken down first, but if you ingest liquid on an empty stomach (no food few hours before) then the vitamins will pass the stomach quickly and not degrade much.

[syr_]

I'm not sure on the bioavailability, but the forms I took over the years are orotate and malate. The malic acid in particular has some health benefits. Lots of caps, but 300mg/d are enough.

Glycinate has no side effect, but no extra benefits either.

Best forms are liquid ...

Oh yes, there is also transdermal magnesium solutions. i have tried it once, but cannot say if worked better, so went back to caps (malate), which I open and dilute in half glass water.