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Anti-Aging Skin Supplements


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#1 efosse

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 07:20 PM


Hi all,

I realize this has been touched upon in many different threads, but I thought it'd be useful to overview some of the anti-aging supplements that improve skin in one thread. Here are some that come to mind:

1. silicon: increases skin elasticity on a dose of of 1-3g; also improves hair and nail thickness
2. oral isotretinoin: on a low dose (e.g., 5-15 mg a day) improves skin texture, reduces pore size, "minimizes" wrinkles; also used for acne and neoplastic disorders (e.g., sebacious hyperplasia) -- during intake skin is more sensitive to sun, however!
3. retin-a: shown to reverse signs of photoaging when used topically; won't see results for 4-6 months though -- downside is that it makes skin more photosensitive, however!
4. forskolin: an oral dose will increase production of melatonin, thus preventing sunburn (does this protect the skin from UVA though??)
5. green tea and glisodin: both may protect against UVA damage
6. caffeine and aerobic exercise: may protect against UVA damage

ANY OTHER SUPPLEMENTS/SUGGESTIONS? Also, any supplements that improve wound healing or collagen production?

Finally while we're at it here are some laser/surgical treatments (minimally invasive and "permanent"):
1. Smoothbeam laser: 3-4 treatments slightly remove/reduce wrinkels and scars by stimulating collagen production; also removes acne long-term (e.g., 6-12 months)
2. Fraxel laser: 3-4 treatments remove/reduce wrinkles, scars by 50% (more effective than smoothbeam); may also remove acne

Best,
efosse

#2 Fredrik

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 08:13 PM

The plant extract Polypodium leocotomos has been shown to be protective against UVA/UVB radiation in humans for 3-4 hours after each dose of 120 mg. But a sunscreen protects against wrinkles, saggaing and uneven skin better than any supplement. I use both sunscreen, prescription retinoids, topical C +E and supplements. But I rank them in that order, from most to least scientifically proven.

You can read lots more about in on: www.heliocare.com

I bought the spanish version from tubotica.com because it´s much cheaper than the american one. Unfortunately each pill contains 10 mg of betacarotene so I would get the american version insted (for about $45-55).

40 gram of tomato paste + a teaspoon of olive oil daily can also protect somewhat against sundamage/aging.

Pycnogenol 25 mg three times a day.

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#3 marting

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 08:17 PM

Hi that is a good overview - I would add Hyaluronic acid to that list - that are some supplements that use a low molecule weight that should be better absorbed - one bran name is Injuv - but there are also other - The Danish Biotech firm Novozymes offers another advanced variant which I believe are used by some supplement firms. Basically, it ensures that the skin retains more moisture as we age and thereby less wrinkles- Bill Sardin contributes the high intake of HA from natural sources to the low levels of wrinkels in some elderly people in some parts of Japan (he has an article about this on his website). He also praises another product called Bio Collagen II - I have never tried it myself.

There are also other supplement firms such as Ferrosan which claims that it main product "Imeeden" works against wrinkels - the main ingredients should be a marine compound. In general, adding fish oil is probaby a good thing to keep the skin soft.

Finally, I also wonder whether agebreaker supplements such as carnosine could not have a positive effect as it minimises cross-linkings which leads to wrinkels over time.

Br,

Martin

#4 doug123

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 08:31 PM

First, for my fellow laymen and women -- may I please present some introductory information regarding the primary source of evidence; Archives of Dermatology -- a publication of the American Medical Association?

Some information on the AMA from Answers.com, provided by US History Encyclopedia:

American Medical Association

American Medical Association (AMA) was founded on 7 May 1847 as a response to the growing demands for reforms in medical education and practice. Dr. Nathan S. Davis (1817–1904), a delegate from the New York State Medical Society who later came to be known as the "founding father of the AMA," convened a national conference of physicians to address reforms in medical education, medical ethics, and public health. On 7 May 1847 more than 250 physicians from more than forty medical societies and twenty-eight medical colleges assembled in the Great Hall of the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia and established the American Medical Association. A Committee on Medical Education was appointed, and minimum standards of medical education were established. The first national code of American medical ethics, the cornerstone of professional self-regulation, was adopted. Written by Dr. John Bell (1796–1872) and Dr. Isaac Hays (1796–1879) and published in 1847, the Code of Medical Ethics of the American Medical Association provided guidelines for the behavior of physicians with respect to patients, society, and other medical professionals.

Throughout the nineteenth century the AMA worked to expose fraudulent and unethical practitioners and to limit licensure to allopathic physicians. In 1883 the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) was established with Nathan Davis as the first editor. By 1901, JAMA was reporting a circulation of 22,049 copies per week, the largest of all medical journals in the world.


Membership, however, remained small, including only 10,000 of the 100,000 orthodox physicians. In 1901 the AMA underwent a major reorganization to become a more effective national body by providing proportional representation among state medical societies. The House of Delegates was established as the legislative body of the AMA. Each state society was allowed a specific number of delegates with voting rights. By 1906, membership in the AMA exceeded 50,000 physicians, and educational and licensing reforms began to take hold.

The newly established Council on Medical Education inspected 160 medical schools (1906–1907), and in 1910 the Flexner Report, Medical Education in the United States and Canada, was published. Funded by the Carnegie Foundation and supported by the AMA, the report exposed the poor conditions of many schools and recommended implementing rigorous standards of medical training. By 1923 the AMA had adopted standards for medical specialty training, and in 1927 the association published a list of hospitals approved for residency training.

By World War I, the AMA had become a powerful political lobby. Wary of governmental control, it fought proposals for national health insurance. The 1935 Social Security Act passed without compulsory health insurance due to AMA influence. Physician membership grew steadily to over 100,000 physicians by 1936. The AMA continued to fight government involvement in health care with a campaign against President Truman's initiatives in 1948. In 1961 the American Medical Political Action Committee (AMPAC) was formed to represent physicians' and patients' interests in health care legislation.

The AMA continued to work on numerous public health initiatives, including declaring alcoholism to be an illness (1956), recommending nationwide polio vaccinations (1960), and adopting a report on the hazards of cigarette smoking (1964). AMA membership exceeded 200,000 physicians by 1965. From 1966 to 1973, the AMA coordinated the Volunteer Physicians in Vietnam program and in 1978 supported state legislation mandating use of seat belts for infants and children.

In 1983, membership included 250,000 physicians. As AIDS became an epidemic in the 1980s, the AMA passed a resolution opposing acts of discrimination against AIDS patients (1986) and established the office of HIV/AIDS (1988).

By 1990, health maintenance organizations (HMOs) and other third-party payers were involved extensively in health care delivery. Health care reform had become a political priority. In 1994 and 1995 the AMA drafted two Patient Protection Acts, and in 1998 the AMA supported the Patient's Bill of Rights.

In 2001, AMA membership included 300,000 physicians. As new threats to the nation's health, such as bioterrorism, began to emerge in the twenty-first century, the AMA continued to rely on the principles in the AMA Code of Medical Ethics (revised 2001) and the democratic process of the AMA House of Delegates to guide its actions and policies to fulfill its mission as "physicians dedicated to the health of America."

Bibliography

Baker, Robert B., et al. The American Medical Ethics Revolution: How the AMA's Code of Ethics Has Transformed Physicians' Relationships to Patients, Professionals, and Society. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1999.

Duffy, John. From Humors to Medical Science: A History of American Medicine. Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1993.

Starr, Paul. The Social Transformation of American Medicine: The Rise of a Sovereign Profession and the Making of a Vast Industry. New York: Basic Books, 1982.

Stevens, Rosemary. American Medicine and the Public Interest: A History of Specialization. Berkeley, Calif.: University of California Press, 1998.


Now, here's some information I found August 10, 2007 at Wikipedia that seems to be accurate:

Archives of Dermatology
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Archives of Dermatology is a monthly professional medical journal published by the American Medical Association. Archives of Dermatology publishes original, peer-reviewed reports and discussions that address the effectiveness of diagnosis and treatment in medical and surgical dermatology, pediatric and geriatric dermatology, and oncologic and aesthetic dermatologic surgery.


Here is the study abstract that may be of interest:

Posted Image

Vol. 143 No. 5, May 2007
Study 

Improvement of Naturally Aged Skin With Vitamin A (Retinol)

Reza Kafi, MD; Heh Shin R. Kwak, MD; Wendy E. Schumacher, BS; Soyun Cho, MD, PhD; Valerie N. Hanft, MD; Ted A. Hamilton, MS; Anya L. King, MS; Jacqueline D. Neal, BSE; James Varani, PhD; Gary J. Fisher, PhD; John J. Voorhees, MD, FRCP; Sewon Kang, MD


Arch Dermatol. 2007;143:606-612.

Objective  To evaluate the effectiveness of topical retinol (vitamin A) in improving the clinical signs of naturally aged skin.

Design  Randomized, double-blind, vehicle-controlled, left and right arm comparison study.

Setting  Academic referral center.

Patients  The study population comprised 36 elderly subjects (mean age, 87 years), residing in 2 senior citizen facilities.

Intervention  Topical 0.4% retinol lotion or its vehicle was applied at each visit by study personnel to either the right or the left arm, up to 3 times a week for 24 weeks.

Main Outcome Measures  Clinical assessment using a semiquantitative scale (0, none; 9, most severe) and biochemical measurements from skin biopsy specimens obtained from treated areas.

Results  After 24 weeks, an intent-to-treat analysis using the last-observation-carried-forward method revealed that there were significant differences between retinol-treated and vehicle-treated skin for changes in fine wrinkling scores (–1.64 [95% CI, –2.06 to –1.22] vs –0.08 [95% CI, –0.17 to 0.01]; P<.001). As measured in a subgroup, retinol treatment significantly increased glycosaminoglycan expression (P = .02 [n = 6]) and procollagen I immunostaining (P = .049 [n = 4]) compared with vehicle.

Conclusions  Topical retinol improves fine wrinkles associated with natural aging. Significant induction of glycosaminoglycan, which is known to retain substantial water, and increased collagen production are most likely responsible for wrinkle effacement. With greater skin matrix synthesis, retinol-treated aged skin is more likely to withstand skin injury and ulcer formation along with improved appearance.

Trial Registration  clinicaltrials.gov Identifier: NCT00272610

Author Affiliations: Department of Dermatology, University of Michigan Medical School, Ann Arbor. Drs Kafi and Kwak are now with the Department of Dermatology, Stanford Medical School, Palo Alto, Calif, and Dr Cho is now with the Department of Dermatology, Seoul National University, Seoul, South Korea.


Disclosure info:

Correspondence: Sewon Kang, MD, University of Michigan Medical School, Department of Dermatology, 1910 Taubman Center, 1500 E Medical Center Dr, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 (swkang@med.umich.edu).

Accepted for Publication: October 19, 2006.

Author Contributions: Study concept and design: Kafi, Neal, Varani, Fisher, Voorhees, and Kang. Acquisition of data: Kafi, Kwak, Schumacher, Cho, Neal, Varani, Fisher, and Kang. Analysis and interpretation of data: Kafi, Kwak, Hamilton, King, Varani, Fisher, Voorhees, and Kang. Drafting of the manuscript: Kafi, Kwak, Schumacher, Neal, and Kang. Critical revision of the manuscript for important intellectual content: Kafi, Cho, Hamilton, King, Varani, Fisher, Voorhees, and Kang. Statistical analysis: Hamilton and King. Obtained funding: Kafi, Voorhees, and Kang. Administrative, technical, and material support: Kafi, Kwak, Schumacher, Cho, King, Neal, Varani, Fisher, Voorhees, and Kang. Study supervision: Kafi, Voorhees, and Kang.

Financial Disclosure: Drs Fisher, Kang, Varani, and Voorhees are named inventors on an issued patent application concerning methods of treating skin aging. They will receive royalties under the University of Michigan's Intellectual Property Policy in the event that a commercial license is signed and a product is sold. This article describes research that was part of the basis of the approved application.

Funding/Support: This study was supported in part by grants from the Babcock Endowment for Dermatologic Research, the Merck-American Federation for Aging Research (Dr Kafi), Alpha Omega Alpha Student Research Fellowship (Dr Kafi), and the National Institutes of Health (K24, Dr Kang).


Author Affiliations: Department of Dermatology, University of Michigan Medical School, Ann Arbor. Drs Kafi and Kwak are now with the Department of Dermatology, Stanford Medical School, Palo Alto, Calif, and Dr Cho is now with the Department of Dermatology, Seoul National University, Seoul, South Korea.


Thoughts?

Take care.

#5 Fredrik

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 09:20 PM

Retinol gets converted into skin to retinaldehyde and from that to all-trans retinoic acid (tretinoin). So retinol is MUCH much weaker than the prescription tretinoin against photoaging. Skip the expensive and unreliable commercial retinol and go for the prescription retinoids like Retin-A and Tazorac/Avage (tazarotene).

Retinoids increase collagen, repairs photodamage, evens out skin tone and can even protect against further wrinkling.

But a sunscreen protects better against wrinkling than a prescription retinoid. Best thing is to use both. Prevent with sunscreen and repair the daily damage that got through with a retinoid nightly.

#6 maxwatt

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 09:59 PM

Kinetin may belong on the list. It would also seem to have potential as an oral supplement, except that insufficient toxicity studies have been performed, even in rodents.

#7 niner

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 03:15 AM

Retinol gets converted into skin to retinaldehyde and from that to all-trans retinoic acid (tretinoin). So retinol is MUCH much weaker than the prescription tretinoin against photoaging. Skip the expensive and unreliable commercial retinol and go for the prescription retinoids like Retin-A and Tazorac/Avage (tazarotene).

Retinoids increase collagen, repairs photodamage, evens out skin tone and can even protect against further wrinkling.

But a sunscreen protects better against wrinkling than a prescription retinoid. Best thing is to use both. Prevent with sunscreen and repair the daily damage that got through with a retinoid nightly.


Fredrik, I think this is good advice. I would caution that for some people, particularly fair skinned types, tretinoin may cause inflammation and can induce an eczema condition. Retinol is a way to get around this problem. It is not as potent, but seems to be safe for all skin types. I've used a moisturizer with retinol that was not very expensive. I've forgotten the brand, but it was one of the majors.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned topical glycolic acid. This is a potent alpha-hydroxy exfoliating agent. It works wonders for me, and is highly regarded in the Usenet beauty groups and by a lot of dermatologists. It induces collagen formation, evens out skin tone, keeps keratoses at bay, reduces pore size... all the usual good stuff, and is available OTC in tons of products. My dermatologist considers it her number one agent.

#8 jubai

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 04:05 AM

Great advice so far


I would add that skin health is also linked to the strength and fluidity of the blood vessels (capilaries). Good capilaries will improve nutrient flow and thus pretty much every other aspects, and improve skin appearance.

Polyphenols are your best bet for that.

EsterC + GrapeSeed is a standard combo for that. Pycnogenol and Glisodin are also often mentioned and have science to back them up.

Berries juices/powders/etc are great sources.


Pineapple juice is also a natural way to smooth and relax collagen (and improve sperm taste, haha). Drink some, put some on skin, and marinate your pork chops in it for meaty cheeks and chops :p

#9 Fredrik

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Posted 11 August 2007 - 11:02 AM

Retinol gets converted into skin to retinaldehyde and from that to all-trans retinoic acid (tretinoin). So retinol is MUCH much weaker than the prescription tretinoin against photoaging. Skip the expensive and unreliable commercial retinol and go for the prescription retinoids like Retin-A and Tazorac/Avage (tazarotene).

Retinoids increase collagen, repairs photodamage, evens out skin tone and can even protect against further wrinkling.

But a sunscreen protects better against wrinkling than a prescription retinoid. Best thing is to use both. Prevent with sunscreen and repair the daily damage that got through with a retinoid nightly.

Fredrik, I think this is good advice. I would caution that for some people, particularly fair skinned types, tretinoin may cause inflammation and can induce an eczema condition.


The retinoid induced dermatitis is only transient. When the skin is retinized no redness is visible, unless you up the dose or frequency again. Tretinoin does not induce inflammation in the dermal layer, on the contrary the retinoids are anti-inflammatory.

Tretinoin inhibits AP-1, a MMP promoter. The MMPs (collagenase, elastase) degrade the skin and the imperfect repair that ensues causes microscarring, also called wrinkles. So tretinoin inhibits the enzymatic degradation of healthy collagen.

When you start using a retinoid, go slowly, with the weakest one every third day. Just a pea-size glob of cream 20-30 minutes after washing (to decrease absorption). After 6-8 weeks when no redness or flaking is visible you can start using it every other day.

I have used tretinoin for the past 10 years and none of the other unproven anti-aging topicals comes near it in efficiency. Retinoids minimizes pores, evens out skin tone, prevents wrinkles and sagging and makes skin soft and plump. It´s the best thing anyone can do for their face, after sunscreen.

#10 curious_sle

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 10:18 AM

frederik, what is your take on systemic tretinoin (accutane etc)? i was considering 5mg (or if possible 2,5mg) daily. Well starting in fall or so :-) to avoid issues with photosensitivity. (I have not had any problem with topical prescription 0.5% tretinoin cream)

#11 ikaros

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 11:58 AM

Exfoliation + copper peptides...you'll look young forever (well for a long time at least)

#12 Fredrik

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 07:42 PM

frederik, what is your take on systemic tretinoin (accutane etc)? i was considering 5mg (or if possible 2,5mg) daily. Well starting in fall or so :-) to avoid issues with photosensitivity. (I have not had any problem with topical prescription 0.5% tretinoin  cream)


Oh, hi there curious sle! I´ve taken one course of Accutane when I was 17. Did wonders for my acne then (80% better) and it made my pores smaller (Isotretinoin shrinks the oil-glands, some of them permanently).

But I would never consider taking it now indefinately...even at a low dose. I´m to concerned about Isotretinoins effect on the bone and other systemic side effects. It´s not meant to be taken long term, even though certain cancer sufferers take oral retinoids for the rest of their life.



HOW TO PREVENT AND TREAT AGING SKIN

consists of (from order of most to least important):

1. High UVA/UVB protective sunscreen used 365 days a year, rain or shine. UVA damages your skin on a daily basis.

2. A retinoid (which you already use, good!)

3. Botox. Prevents creasing and new wrinkles from forming.

4. a topical vitamin C + E cocktail

4. IPL treatments every 6 months to clear skin from redness and brown pigments and salicylic or glycolic acid peels monthly (or every second month) to remove past damage and thin the stratum corneum so that more of the retinoid and ascorbic acid serum can penetrate. TCA peels 15-30% are stronger than salicylic and glycolic and can be used every six months instead of the weaker peels. These peels have recently been proven to lessen the risk of certain skin cancers because you remove actinic keratoses (damaged cells).


We lose 1% of our collagen each year. This is why we look like deflated grapes (raisins) after several decades. Most of this is becuse we don´t protect our skin from UVA-radiation which is there all year round in daylight. 95% of all radiation that reach us from the sun is UVA.

A daily high UVA-sunscreen will prevent this from happening better than any current pills or topical antioxidant technologies. That is because a sunscreen will prevent the UVA-related free radical damage before it even begins. Antioxidants comes in to late in the game and can´t even compare to sunscreens(but it´s good to use antioxidants UNDER your sunscreen).

European sunscreens can protect from photoaging better than current US sunscreens. That is because the FDA haven´t approved all of the good UV-filters we have ( like tinosorb S & M, mexoryl SX and XL). They have just recently approved the loreal filter Mexoryl SX, but not the XL yet. You live in germany, right? Then LA Roche posay will be the best bet for you. La roche posay contains both mexoryls + tinosorb s and avobenzone (7 filters total).

The Loreal brands have good european UVA-sunscreens (Vichy, loreal solaire, lancome, la roche posay). In the US La roche posays daily sunscreen with mexoryl SX or the Neutrogena sheer with helioplex technology are good options.

If you just stay away from the sun, use a high UVA protecting sunscreen (PPD 15 or over), 1/4 of a teaspoon everyday and reapply it once or twice in the summer and continue to use tretinoin (or tazarotene which I find a bit more effective on the pores) you should be just fine.

If I were you I would also upgrade the 0.05% tretinoin to 0.1% tazarotene (Avage cream in the US), taz 0.05& gel or 0.1% tretinoin. You can find both on alldaychemist.com. Currently I use taz 0.1% every night along with 0.025% tretinoin alcohol gel abot once or twice a week (which actually is stronger than the 0.05% becuse of the gel formula).

Using skinceuticals C + E ferulic acid serum under your sunscreen is optional but it is proven to lessen erythema and sun burned cells and the vitamin C may possibly stimulate collagen synthesis or at least inhibit the breakdown of the collagen you have. I find that the 15% ascorbic acid in the serum evens out my skin tone and makes the skin reflect light in a more flattering way. The low pH of 3.2 also makes this an exfoliant like glycolic acid, but not as irritating.

Edited by fredrik, 12 August 2007 - 08:43 PM.


#13 curious_sle

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 08:32 PM

ah, quite a few nice suggestions, some of which i was not aware off. Thank you.

Oh and i'm swiss but i see germany and france from my windows :-) *hint*

#14 curious_sle

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 08:38 PM

oh, some might wonder what else i use. I use or rather abuse strixaderm for skin renewal, every two days tretinoin (0.05%) and daily a facewash with salicylic acid (0.5%).

i've seen a bbc documentary on a doctor of sorts going on a quest to prolong youth yadda yadda and in that show they found a fairly inexpensive OTC skincream that actually worked very well to improve lower skin levels (adhesion to upper layerss, structure you name it) thay actually did take skinsamples and documented the effect. I'd like to know if anyone has seen this show and can tell me what that cream was. (yes, i'm very unspecific... i'm a bit tired sorry.)

#15 Fredrik

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 09:25 PM

Try to use the tretinoin every other night for 6-8 weeks, then nightly. You can do that if you skip the SA cleanser. Tretinoin is much more exfoliating and comedolytic than SA so you won´t need it.

EDIT: I misread and thought you were using a 5% salicylic acid cleanser. 0.5% can absolutely be used once you´ve become acclimatised to using a retinoid every night.

The Strixaderm moisturizer is just that, a moisturizer. Nothing in it can renew skin faster except the glucosamine. You can find that in Oil of Olays Definity along with niacinamide. The other active ingredient I see in it is palmitoyl pentapeptide. The only independent research that has been done on that peptide was by NIH and it concerned wound healing.

Palmitoyl Pentapeptide-3 (which isn´t proven to do anything) can also be found in cheaper moisturizers also by Oil of Olay.

But if you like the moisturizing effect by all means use it! But there is nothing in it that is proven to prevent or repair aging skin.

EDIT: I don´t like to recommend just a moisturizer in a thread about prevention. A moisturizer won´t prevent or treat skin aging, but it can certainly prevent and treat dry skin. So I deleted the part about moisturizers.

I saw that BBC-show and just increased fibrillin? You can´t even compare that to the multiple effects of retinoids. I read the ingredientlist on the Boots serum. Just rubbish. A weak vitamin A derivate and a plant MMP-inhibitor. They same stuff you find in many other equally ineffective anti-aging creams that in reality are just moisturizers.

Edited by fredrik, 13 August 2007 - 04:12 PM.


#16 neogenic

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 11:39 PM

What would be the dream formulation? If you guys could put it all together. No mention of Spin traps. Why not combine in a sunless tanner, like the forskolin?

#17 Fredrik

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 12:52 AM

What would be the dream formulation?  If you guys could put it all together.  No mention of Spin traps.  Why not combine in a sunless tanner, like the forskolin?


My dream cream would have SPF 200 and PPD 200 (UVA). It wouldn´t be sticky, pore clogging or whitening.

It would contain ascorbic acid 15%, 1% tocopherol, selenium, ferulic acid, curcumin, genistein, l-ergothionine and silymarine.

The DNA repair enzyme T4 endonuclease V (the investigative drug Dimericine).

It would contain an iron chelator to minimize UV-induced ROS and erythema.

It would contain hyaluronic acid of the right molecular weight, xylose and glucosamine to stimulate GAG-synthesis (the sugars that binds water and brings volume to the skin).

Further it would contain a low amount of anti-inflammatory salicylic acid bound to a fatty acid to decrease irritation, capryoyl salicylic acid. This would with time refine the skin surface and decrease pore size without flaking.

Oh, I wish! But instead I have to use separate products to get all of the above (and the dream sunscreen I described doesn´t exist, they´re all more or less greasy or if not they´re whitening or ineffective).

Edited by fredrik, 13 August 2007 - 03:40 AM.


#18 shadowrun

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:12 AM

I have been interested in using a retinoid for a few years now...

But the increased photosensitivity has me worried.

Does anyone know how much more photosensitive it makes someone?

I feel like I might need to supplement with something else to offset it.

I also ran across this article on retinoids and the skin - It was fairly informative and recommends retinyl palmitate as the best topical retinoid
http://www.plasticsu...sp?ArticleID=29

I'm really interested in any feedback. [thumb]

#19 Fredrik

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 02:17 PM

I have been interested in using a retinoid for a few years now...

But the increased photosensitivity has me worried.

Does anyone know how much more photosensitive it makes someone?

I feel like I might need to supplement with something else to offset it.

I also ran across this article on retinoids and the skin - It was fairly informative and recommends retinyl palmitate as the best topical retinoid
http://www.plasticsu...sp?ArticleID=29

I'm really interested in any feedback.  [thumb]


Sorry to be so blunt but retinyl palmitate is the worst retinoid (retinoid derivative) because it hasn´t showed to be transformed to the active form all-trans retinoic acid at all. It can be photoprotective though. Read some of the reviews written on retinoids and the treatment of photoaging on pubmed.

You will find that they conclude (and the cochran review also concludes) that tretinoin is the most studied retinoid period. So tretinoin and the newer retinoid tazarotene are the only topical drugs approved to treat aging skin. That is because they´ve been proven to work.

Don´t use derivatives like retinyl palmitate and don´t use retinol when you can use the real active substance, tretinoin or tazarotene.

Retinoids helps repair the skin from photodamage and even prevents it from happening to a certain degree. The issue of photosensitivity is not clear. It may not even be photosensitivity but when the stratum corneum (the dead top layer) get´s thinner more infra red radiation comes through and that makes your face feel "hot". But it´s not increased photosensitivity. Most modern dermatologist don´t think this is an issue at all.

Yes, you need to supplement with something else...a sunscreen. You should always use a high PPD (15+) and high SPF 30+ (UVB) even if you´re not using a retinoid.

#20 efosse

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 03:12 PM

Hey fredrik, what's your take on differin (i.e., adapalene)? The studies on acne report fewer side effects related to photosensitivity.

#21 Fredrik

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 03:40 PM

Hey fredrik, what's your take on differin (i.e., adapalene)? The studies on acne report fewer side effects related to photosensitivity.


Adapalene is to weak and inefficient and it has less sideeffects. With retinoids you don´t get any action without a reaction.

It can even out your skintone somewhat (there´s a study on it and solar lentigines) but not especially good for wrinkles or to prevent sagging. It´s not approved for treating aging skin.

#22 luminous

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 03:11 AM

The prescription retinoids (Adapalene, Tazarotene and Tretinoin), are beyond compare vs. retinol and similar OTC products. One time, I read that Retin-A is the "diamond" of retinols--all others being mere coal. I've used Retin-A on and off for 20 years, and nearly every night for the last seven years or so. I have no wrinkles...well, maybe a few under my eyes when I smile.

Other than the Retin-A, I've not done much else in terms of skin care. It seems a bit confusing to know which products to use. From what I understand, Retin-A is not an exfoliant. So I'm looking for the best exfoliant. Ages ago, I heard that glycolic acid was the most effective AHA available. I wonder if that's still true. Also, I'm wondering what the best antioxidant is for skin. Right now, I'm using Prevage MD with idebenone. Some websites claim idebenone is by far the best topical antioxidant, much better than vitamin C or E and also perferred above coenzyme Q10, but I don't know. I also wonder about peptides and also the ideal sunscreen. But if all of these things are so good for your skin, then how can one possibly use them all? Should they be layered every day, or should you rotate them? Sunscreen should always be worn, of course, but what about all the rest? Thoughts?

#23 Fredrik

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 09:10 AM

The prescription retinoids (Adapalene, Tazarotene and Tretinoin), are beyond compare vs. retinol and similar OTC products.  One time, I read that Retin-A is the "diamond" of retinols--all others being mere coal.  I've used Retin-A on and off for 20 years, and nearly every night for the last seven years or so.  I have no wrinkles...well, maybe a few under my eyes when I smile. 

Other than the Retin-A, I've not done much else in terms of skin care. It seems a bit confusing to know which products to use.  From what I understand, Retin-A is not an exfoliant.  So I'm looking for the best exfoliant.  Ages ago, I heard that glycolic acid was the most effective AHA available.  I wonder if that's still true.  Also, I'm wondering what the best antioxidant is for skin.  Right now, I'm using Prevage MD with idebenone.  Some websites claim idebenone is by far the best topical antioxidant, much better than vitamin C or E and also perferred above coenzyme Q10, but I don't know.  I also wonder about peptides and also the ideal sunscreen.  But if all of these things are so good for your skin, then how can one possibly use them all?  Should they be layered every day, or should you rotate them?  Sunscreen should always be worn, of course, but what about all the rest? Thoughts?


Hi Luminous,
many derms consider the third generation retinoid like drug tazarotene to be the new "gold standard" for treating and preventing aging skin. I use both tretinoin (Retin-A) and taz, alternating them. I find taz minimizes pores better and it is less reddening but you will peel a lot cause it´s stronger than tretinoin. I have used tretinoin and sunscreen for 11 years. I have no wrinkles, sagging or pigmentation (worthless anecdotal evidence, I know :p ).

Don´t waste your money on peptides until they´ve been proven to do something. I have not seen one study that showed penetration down to the dermis, peptides are to large (thankfully our skin won´t let stuff through easily).

The antioxidant cocktail of C + E + ferulic (to stabilize) protects skin better than idebenone (Prevage MD). I used the Prevage before but I was in the 5% that got an terrible allergic reaction to it. Anyway, take a look at this study from last year that compared skinceuticals C + E ferulic to Prevage and found the C + E to be outstanding:


"Ubiquinone, idebenone, and kinetin provide ineffective photoprotection to skin when compared to a topical antioxidant combination of vitamins C and E with ferulic acid."

J Invest Dermatol. 2006 May;126(5):1185-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 16528359 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum


The article "Antioxidants investigated" on the commercial site "Dermadoctor" actually explains the above stude in laymans terms:

http://www.dermadoct.....3FA77ED34D72}


The Skinceuticals C + E ferulic serum is best bought on ebay in small sample bottles. If you buy the big bottle the ascorbic acid will oxidize before you can finish it and the serum will darken as the ascorbic turns to dehydroascorbic acid (a good thing that it so easily reacts with oxygen, it´s really a strong active antioxidant).


THE IDEAL SUNSCREEN (is NOT LEFs sunscreen with betaglucan)

The ideal sunscreen contains stabilized avobenzone, mexoryl SX, mexoryl XL, Tinosorb S or M.

If you´re sunscreen doesnt contain stabilized avobenzone or the four filters above you don´t have the best protection against photoaging. Regular avobenzone breaks down in sunlight in one to two hours and physical filters like zink and titanium doesn´t protect well against UVA on their own.

Go back and reread my post on why european brands at this time have better UVA-filters (blame the FDA).

Loreal has the best combination of filters right now as they invented and patented two new UVA-filters (of which one recently got FDA approved).

All these are owned by Loreal:

Anthelios La Roche Posay can be bought in the US. The european versions contain both of the mexoryl filters and are much more efficient. A good european product is Anthelios fluide extreme spf 50+.

Vichy

Loreal solar expertise

Lancome sunscreen range

The Neutrogena sunscreens (Johnson & Johnson) with Heliplex technology also stabilizes avobenzone so they´re good.

Other brands use two filters called Tinosorb S and M,. They are good also. You can find them in the following brands:

Eucerin

Avene

Bioderma photoderm (french company)

Ducray


Good luck!

Edited by fredrik, 14 August 2007 - 09:45 AM.


#24 sentinel

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 03:03 PM

Fredrik,
I would just like to chime in and say that you have laid out an impressive overview of the retinoids and sunscreen elements, you seem to have done a lot of research on the area. Is this just a hobby or is your work/study involved in this area?

sentinel

#25 Fredrik

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 04:19 PM

Fredrik,
I would just like to chime in and say that you have laid out an impressive overview of the retinoids and sunscreen elements, you seem to have done a lot of research on the area. Is this just a hobby or is your work/study involved in this area?

sentinel


Thank you for your kind words! I´m not working in the skincare business, it´s just a hobby (or passion). I´ve been interested in skincare since I was 13, first acne and later photoaging. I´ve read a bunch of textbooks by and for dermatologists and try to keep myself updated on current research. Glad to hear you find my little summarys helpful.

Everyone should be using a retinoid + sunscreen, even high risk children (light skinned, of celtic ancestry for example) should start using them. But starting in your teens will be practical for most people. Short term it will treat acne and in the long run it will prevent skin damage and cancer.

#26 efosse

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 04:22 PM

A bit of warning:

When I first used Retin-A after about 4 weeks I spot-treated a small area with an alpha-hydroxy acid. Bad move -- the area was scarred in the sense that it became slighly depressed and remained that way 6+ months afterward.

My point: retin-a increases the absorption of other topicals, so use topicals gently and work up to higher concentrations. I spent 1600 dollars on Smoothbeam laser treatments to (mostly) remove the scar from combining AHA and Retin-A.

Best,
efosse

#27 rodentman

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 04:31 PM

By the way.. I heard that the effects of Retin-A as a colligen enhancer fade after about a year or so of use, and the control groups start to look identical to the placebo groups.

RodentMan

#28 efosse

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 04:52 PM

You have a study or reference for that rodentman? I haven't encountered that before... in fact (anecdotally) I've heard of cases where people have used retin-a for decades and look much, much younger...

#29 Fredrik

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 05:34 PM

By the way.. I heard that the effects of Retin-A as a colligen enhancer fade after about a year or so of use, and the control groups start to look identical to the placebo groups.

RodentMan


This may come off as arrogant but what you´ve heard is an misunderstanding. I think I know where this comes from. The visual graded signs of improvement on aging skin PLATEUED after about 52 weeks. But after that initial imrovement tretinoin will continue to inhibit collagenase and elastase and dyspigmentation so your skin will age MUCH slower than if you haven´t been using it at all. It will stay more firm, even, clear and unwrinkled.

Interesting side note, tazarotene did not plateu after a year.

But if you look like a weathered old sailor tretinoin can´t do it all on its own. You need more Cher-like interventions. Years of neglect needs heavy duty treatment. It will hurt. You will develop crusts, be red for weeks and the damaged skin will come sloughing off like on a snake.

Peels like that is what aging celebritys like Madonna, Ah-nuld, Michael Jackson and everyone else near or over 50 is using to deal with their past (sunloving) sins.

If someone is badly sun damaged a serious 35% TCA peel enhanced by a Jessners peel is recommended, that will remove a bulk of the damage and continued use of retinoids, sunscreen, topical l-ascorbic acid and IPL will mantain and prevent further damage.

Edited by fredrik, 14 August 2007 - 05:52 PM.


#30 efosse

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 05:45 PM

Thanks fredrik for that clarification on retin-a, that makes sense! I've read a bunch of articles on Retin-A and always heard positive long-term effects on skin aging (even though there is enhanced photosensitivity).

One note, however -- I've been looking into lasers for skin "rejuvenation" and the fraxel is much better than the IPL for photoaging (not to mention scars and neoplastic skin disorders such as sebacious hyperplasia). Fraxel is short for "fractional thermolysis" -- basically it's a minimally invasive ablative laser that treats 15-25% of the skin each session. While an IPL is cheap, but it won't smooth out skin texture not nearly as well as the fraxel (also the fraxel clears up solar lentigines). As well IPL requires a LOT of sessions while fraxel achieves vastly superior results in about 3-4 treatments. Finally, although the IPL is considered good for pigmentation problems, it is more effective to use pulsed dye lasers, especially if there are visible blood vessels. (Yeah, I've been reading WAY too much on lasers and skin rejuvenation, lol.)




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