197 replies to this topic

[tintinet]

My experience: 2-3 days after application, intense itch, flaking, redness.....

ISTM my sensitivity was/is allergic contact dermatitis/eczema.

[sentinel]

Thanks chaps, so I may have all the fun to come then, better not go too crazy [thumb]

[sentinel]

Update - Just lucky with Rentin A products, no major flaking or redness - will upgrade to 0.1% next time. Retino appears to be a bona fide products according to all the reports and refs I can find.

Now using right amount of factor 50 screen so only whitening for 10 minutes or so.

Decided to add the Skinceuticals C + E ferulic serum which I've ordered off ebay like Fredrik as I get 6 x 4ml bottles for £21 delivered which is fine compared to 15ml bottles for £60.00 which is insane [:o] . It should last at least 3-4 months.

I expect to look like a 5year old boy by this time next year [tung]

[Fredrik]

Update - Just lucky with Rentin A products, no major flaking or redness - will upgrade to 0.1% next time. Retino appears to be a bona fide products according to all the reports and refs I can find.

Now using right amount of factor 50 screen so only whitening for 10 minutes or so.

Decided to add the Skinceuticals C + E ferulic serum which I've ordered off ebay like Fredrik as I get 6 x 4ml bottles for £21 delivered which is fine compared to 15ml bottles for £60.00 which is insane [:o] . It should last at least 3-4 months.

I expect to look like a 5year old boy by this time next year  [tung]

Good for you! Now you´re using the most effective evidence based regime there is. Prescription retinoids (tretinoin, tazarotene) is the bomb!

No topical to date can match what retinoids do (except daily sunscreen which is the essentail anti-age topical). After 6-12 months they will fill up fine lines from within , increase extra-cellular substance (hyaluronic acid = hydration and volume) and collagen, lighten and even out skintone, increase skin reflectance (you get that hard to define glow of youth) and decrease pore size, inflammation and acne.

I like tazarotene (brandname Tazorac, Avage) the best. Works faster and with less initial irritation.

In the summer be sure to reapply the sunscreen after 4-5 hours (mid day), the UVA-protection wears off after a couple of hours.

Edited by fredrik, 16 October 2007 - 03:33 PM.

[marqueemoon]

Update - Just lucky with Rentin A products, no major flaking or redness - will upgrade to 0.1% next time. Retino appears to be a bona fide products according to all the reports and refs I can find.

Now using right amount of factor 50 screen so only whitening for 10 minutes or so.

Decided to add the Skinceuticals C + E ferulic serum which I've ordered off ebay like Fredrik as I get 6 x 4ml bottles for £21 delivered which is fine compared to 15ml bottles for £60.00 which is insane [:o] . It should last at least 3-4 months.

I expect to look like a 5year old boy by this time next year  [tung]

There's no need for you to take .1 vs. .05. Studies find .05 is just as effective, but takes a bit longer to show results. .1 will only cause more inflammation which could be pro-aging in itself. Also it's much more cost effective to simply whip up the C serum on your own, especially when you consider how fast it loses potency.

[Fredrik]

Update - Just lucky with Rentin A products, no major flaking or redness - will upgrade to 0.1% next time. Retino appears to be a bona fide products according to all the reports and refs I can find.

Now using right amount of factor 50 screen so only whitening for 10 minutes or so.

Decided to add the Skinceuticals C + E ferulic serum which I've ordered off ebay like Fredrik as I get 6 x 4ml bottles for £21 delivered which is fine compared to 15ml bottles for £60.00 which is insane [:o] . It should last at least 3-4 months.

I expect to look like a 5year old boy by this time next year  [tung]

There's no need for you to take .1 vs. .05. Studies find .05 is just as effective, but takes a bit longer to show results. .1 will only cause more inflammation which could be pro-aging in itself. Also it's much more cost effective to simply whip up the C serum on your own, especially when you consider how fast it loses potency.

I don´t agree. Retinoids are anti-inflammatory, the redness is due to increased blood-flow. I know that one study showed that 0.025% tretinoin was equal in efficiency (clinical visual graded assesment) to 0.1%. BUT my personal experience with retinoids for the last 14 years I´ve used them tells me otherwise.

I´ve used tretinoin 0.05% cream and the stronger 0.025% gel (yes, the alcohol base increases drug delivery), Differin 0.1%, tretinoin 0.1% alcohol gel, tazarotene cream 0.1% and I will start using taz 0.05% gel soon.

I´ve found with tretinoin that increased irritation eventually leads to greater improvement and correction of past sundamage. Tazarotene is stronger but without some of the stinging and redness associated with tretinoin.

I use taz everyday and substitute with tretinoin about 1-2 times a week to be sure to activate all the RAR and RXR-receptors in the skin.

You should use the highest concentration you can tolerate as often you can. If you stay red and flaky after 6 weeks of use you´ll have to either decrease frequency of application or strength. Or change your cleanser to a milder one and use a more effective moisturiser.

[efosse]

Hey all,

I'm curious what you think of the "Neutrogena Ultra Sheer Dry Touch Sunblock SPF 30". It is the best sunblock I've ever used in terms of feel -- it dries instantly and *truly* you cannot feel that you are wearing sunblock. For someone with oily skin, it is great wearing a sunscreen without that oily/greasy feeling (and look). So again my question -- how effective do you think this product is in protecting against UV damage? And are there other sunscreens you've used that are not greasy/oily-feeling?

Here are the ingredients:
Ingredients

Active Ingredients: 2.0% Avobenzone, 7.0% Homosalate, 7.5% Octinoxate, 5.0% Octisalate, 3.0% Oxybenzone

Inactive Ingredients: Water, Silica, Adipic Acid/Diethylene Glycol/Glycerin Crosspolymer, VP-Hexadecene Copolymer, Dimethicone, Hydroxyethyl Acrylate/Sodium Acryloyldimethyltaurate Copolymer, Glycerin, Oat (Aveena Sativa) Kernel Extract, Squalane, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Retinyl Palmitate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Dimethicone, BHT, Cetyl Dimethicone, Bisabolol, Dipotassium Glycyrrhizate, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Polysorbate 60, Tetrasodium EDTA, Butylene Glycol, Trimethylsiloxysilicate, Xanthan Gum, Benzyl Alcohol, Isopropylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Butylparaben, Phenoxyethanol, Fragrance

More information:
http://www.walgreens...0&id=prod387159

Cheers,
efosse

[Athanasios]

I'm curious what you think of the "Neutrogena Ultra Sheer Dry Touch Sunblock SPF 30".

Personally, I like high concentration physical blocker zinc oxide and with vitamin E as a plus, instead of chemical protectors (downside being physical ones aren't waterproof). I don't see anything negative that pops out at me (I stay away from aloe vera for example). Just make sure to apply it often (every 20 to 30mins), otherwise it might end up doing more harm than good.*

*This research isn't on those particular blockers but I would take precaution with any chemical blocker:

Sunscreen enhancement of UV-induced reactive oxygen species in the skin

Kerry M. Hansona et al.

The number of UV-induced (20 mJ cm−2) reactive oxygen species (ROS) generated in nucleated epidermis is dependent upon the length of time the UV filter octocrylene, octylmethoxycinnamate, or benzophenone-3 remains on the skin surface. Two-photon fluorescence images acquired immediately after application of each formulation (2 mg cm−2) to the skin surface show that the number of ROS produced is dramatically reduced relative to the skin − UV filter control. After each UV filter remains on the skin surface for t = 20 min, the number of ROS generated increases, although it remains below the number generated in the control. By t = 60 min, the filters generate ROS above the control. The data show that when all three of the UV filters penetrate into the nucleated layers, the level of ROS increases above that produced naturally by epidermal chromophores under UV illumination.

*Here is a study on those particular blockers:

Photochem Photobiol. 2005 Mar-Apr;81(2):452-6.Click here to read Links
    Unexpected photolysis of the sunscreen octinoxate in the presence of the sunscreen avobenzone.
    Sayre RM, Dowdy JC, Gerwig AJ, Shields WJ, Lloyd RV.

    A major concern raised about photostability studies of sunscreen products is that the photodegradation of sunscreens does not readily translate into changes in product performance. This study examines the correlation between photochemical degradation of sunscreen agents and changes in protection provided by sunscreen films. Films of a commercial sunscreen product containing avobenzone, oxybenzone and octinoxate were irradiated using a fluorescent UV-A phototherapy lamp with additional UV-B blocking filter. Periodically, during irradiation the transmittances of the films were measured and samples collected for chemical analysis of the sunscreen agents using high-performance liquid chromatography techniques. The results show that UV-induced changes in UV transmittance of sunscreen films correlate with changes in concentration of sunscreen agents. In a parallel experiment, we also irradiated a thin film of the same product in the cavity of an electron spin resonance (ESR) spectrometer. We report the concomitant photolysis of avobenzone and octinoxate that predominates over expected E/Z photoisomerization and that irradiation of a film of this product produced free radicals detected by ESR spectroscopy that persisted even after exposure had ended.

    PMID: 15560736 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

BTW, zinc oxide less than 200nm across appears transparent, so find one that advertises this if you want to go with zinc oxide.

[Fredrik]

Hey all,

I'm curious what you think of the "Neutrogena Ultra Sheer Dry Touch Sunblock SPF 30".

It´s a great formula. Try a higher spf if you can tolerate the texture. Avobenzone has the most complete protection against UVA there is among filters...but it´s not photostable. But Neutrogena; Bioderma, Loreal and a few other companies has stabilized the avobenzone so it will last for several hours of sun exposure.

Cnorwood: ALL sunscreen filters are chemicals. Now they divide them in organic and non-organic, because it is a more accurate description.

A pure non-organic sunscreen that you use (zinc, titanium) is better than nothing but it is really inferior to the newer organic (stabilized avobenzone, mexoryl sx & xl, tinosorb s) and organic/non-organic hybrids (Tinosorb M).

Zinc and titanium based formulas can only achieve a low UVA-protection of about PPD 8 (more than that and they are very whitening, think life guard nose protection) that will not afford enough protection against photoaging and immunosupression while for example Neutrogena, Aveeno and Loreal all have sunscreens with UVA-protection ranging from PPD 15-28.

If you want good protection against skin aging and cancer use a sunscreen with a combination of organic and non-organic filters with a PPD protection factor of at least 15:

*Neutrogena

*Aveeno

* Loreal (Kiehls, Lancome, Ambre solaire, Garnier etc)

*Bioderma photoderm

Edited by fredrik, 17 October 2007 - 08:54 PM.

[sdxl]

As Frederik pointed out, that sunscreen isn't photostable. Use one with Helioplex if you want to use a Neutrogena sunscreen, since they don't have any octinoxate and have octocrylene and diethylhexyl 2,6-naphthalate to stabilize the avobenzone.

organic/non-organic hybrids (Tinosorb M)

Tinosorb M isn't a hybrid because of this. It's a hybrid because it's organic and it's made out of particles.

[Athanasios]

Cnorwood: ALL sunscreen filters are chemicals. Now they divide them in organic and non-organic, because it is a more accurate description.

True, I was just referring to mechanism of action.

Zinc and titanium based formulas can only achieve a low UVA-protection of about PPD 8 (more than that and they are very whitening, think life guard nose protection) that will not afford enough protection against photoaging and immunosupression

To each his own I guess. PPD of 8 is similar to SPF of 8 (or 8 times the protection of your bare skin). Multiple layers can be applied and they will be completely photostable. It takes many layers of micronized zinc oxide to show up on your skin (although this is concentration dependent). I think the attack on mineral sunscreens have been a marketing ploy for some years now as they have shown good results in studies.

J Am Acad Dermatol. 1999 Jan;40(1):85-90.Click here to read Links
    Microfine zinc oxide (Z-cote) as a photostable UVA/UVB sunblock agent.
    Mitchnick MA, Fairhurst D, Pinnell SR.

    BACKGROUND: Microfine zinc oxide (Z-Cote) is used as a transparent broad-spectrum sunblock to attenuate UV radiation (UVR), including UVA I (340-400 nm). OBJECTIVE: Our purpose was to assess the suitability of microfine zinc oxide as a broad-spectrum photoprotective agent by examining those properties generally considered important in sunscreens: attenuation spectrum, sun protection factor (SPF) contribution, photostability, and photoreactivity. METHODS: Attenuation spectrum was assessed by means of standard spectrophotometric methods. SPF contribution was evaluated according to Food and Drug Administration standards. Photostability was measured in vitro by assessing SPF before and after various doses of UVR. Photoreactivity was evaluated by subjecting a microfine zinc oxide/organic sunscreen formulation to escalating doses of UVR and determining the percentage of organic sunscreen remaining. RESULTS: Microfine zinc oxide attenuates throughout the UVR spectrum, including UVA I. It is photostable and does not react with organic sunscreens under irradiation. CONCLUSION: Microfine zinc oxide is an effective and safe sunblock that provides broad-spectrum UV protection, including protection from long-wavelength UVA.

    PMID: 9922017 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by cnorwood, 17 October 2007 - 10:25 PM.

[Fredrik]

To each his own I guess.  PPD of 8 is similar to SPF of 8 (or 8 times the protection of your bare skin).  Multiple layers can be applied and they will be completely photostable. It takes many layers of micronized zinc oxide to show up on your skin (although this is concentration dependent).

Absolutely. I´m not attacking anyone or anything. I´m just saying that a combination of organic and non-organic filters offer better protection than pure zinc/titanium sunscreens.

One will only get 8 times the protection with an application of 2mg/square cm. Studies show that people only apply 20-25% of that amount (lesser with pure non-organics like titanium/zinc because of thick texture and whitening).

To get an PPD 8 with a pure zinc/titanium sunscreen you would have to apply 1/2 - 1 teaspoon to face and neck. Measure that amount next time and try to apply it, I dare you . I tried that back in the days when I used a pure micronized zinc and titanium sunscreen. I had to immediately wash it all off.

Likely you´re getting an PPD protection of 3-4. Which isn´t bad, but not spectacular either. Depends on how important cancer prevention and your looks are to you.

Edited by fredrik, 18 October 2007 - 03:32 PM.

[antiscience]

I was wondering if anyone (males) use Borage oil or black currant oil to supplement with GLA? I do eat plenty of nuts during the day but I might have this on and off case of excema on my forehead, so I suspect supplementation might be beneficial. Any thoughts?

[Athanasios]

To get an PPD 8 with a pure zinc/titanium sunscreen you would have to apply 1/2 - 1 teaspoon to face and neck. Measure that amount next time and try to apply it, I dare you . I tried that back in the days when I used a pure micronized zinc and titanium sunscreen. I had to immediately wash it all off.

Consider it done

I do have to admit that the new and best chemscreens they are coming out with appears to be leaps and bounds better than the unstabalized sunscreens or those with lots of aloe etc. I still don't trust them yet, but I will probably move to one in the future.

[sentinel]

marqueemoon

There's no need for you to take .1 vs. .05. Studies find .05 is just as effective, but takes a bit longer to show results. .1 will only cause more inflammation which could be pro-aging in itself. Also it's much more cost effective to simply whip up the C serum on your own, especially when you consider how fast it loses potency.

Thanks but everything I have seen points towards a higher concentration of tretinoin giving better/faster results. As i said, I get very little/infrequent redness and only occasional flaking so raising the concentration is straight logic.

Re the C Serum, I would rather start with the proven, professional product as this will give me a benchmark to compare any DIY preparations I may use in the future, otherwise how do you know your combination is as effective? I use SkinActives to tailor my moisturiser but that is after years of buying Off The Shelf products so it's simple to asses their relative efficiency, I have never used a strong Anti Oxidant preparation so I need to benchmark. Plus the price is very low - £20 for 4 months? I'm not sure it's worth even mixing my own, my time is more valuable than that, that's why we're all here .

Sentinel

[efosse]

Hi all,

There's a new product based on snail slime claims (with some research backing it up) to prevent (or perhaps) even reverse photoaging/skin damage. Here's the link:
http://www.bioskinregeneration.com/

Here's an excerpt:
"BIOSKINCARE is made with the ONLY substance found in NATURE created by a little creature endowed with the ability to cope with (a) daily exposure to trillions of free radicals from a variety of sources: the sun's ultraviolet rays, pollution, harsh weather, and external stress while it thrives exposed nude to the sun rays and the hazards of the environment, pretty much like we merry around exposing our nude face; (b) keep its skin permanently moisturized, and; © regenerate its skin and even parts of some of its other organs whenever damaged.

To moisturize, protect, repair and renew its skin this little creature produces a fluid that it bathes onto its skin. Scientific breakdown has characterized the fluid as a complex compound of glyco or sugar chain molecules bound to proteins, peptides, enzymes, co-enzymes and oligoelements with strong biological activity. The same molecules are present in human skin when skin is injured, specially in younger people, where skin wounds heal quickly and without aberrant scarring, but are scarce or in inadequate proportions in adults."

Thoughts/comments?

[Fredrik]

Hi all,

There's a new product based on snail slime claims (with some research backing it up) to prevent (or perhaps) even reverse photoaging/skin damage.

It used to be bottles of snake oil but now it`s jars of snail slime. Neither have been proven to do jack sh*t in the treatment of photoaging.

There are 23 published articles on the snail species "Helix Aspersa Muller" on Pubmed, NONE of them concerns aging skin...or skin at all for that matter

There simply ARE NO snail slime clinical trials for the treatment of aging skin. Yet, this cynical and fraudulent company is making women and men smear snail slime all over their withered faces in the hope of reclaiming a bit of lost youth.

Please read my earlier posts for evidence based treatment and prevention of photoaging. You will save time and money by spending on high PPD sunscreens, topical C + E and prescription retinoids proven again and again since the early 80s to not only treat but PREVENT skin aging.

Sorry if I´m being harsh on your optimistic search for new actives, efosse. I´m sure we´ll have many new exciting topicals that will treat aging skin. I´m just pretty sure snail slime is not one of them.

Edited by fredrik, 20 October 2007 - 01:43 PM.

[stephen_b]

Any opinions on topical CoQ10? I saw the following on LEF's site:

In addition to CoQ10’s promise in protecting against melanoma, recent research suggests that topically applied CoQ10 may also protect the skin against photoaging, or skin aging caused by exposure to ultraviolet light. German scientists demonstrated that topically applied CoQ10 penetrates the skin’s surface to the living layers of the epidermis, where it reduced oxidative stress, a known contributor to aging and disease. They also noted a marked reduction in the depth of wrinkles following the application of CoQ10. In addition, topical CoQ10 helped protect the skin from the effects of UVA rays, a particularly harmful, DNA-damaging spectrum of ultraviolet light that conventional sunscreens do not block effectively. (See “The Sunscreen Paradox,” Life Extension, June 2006.) The German researchers concluded that CoQ10 may offset the effects of photoaging and thus promote more youthful-looking skin.

Interesting factoid: like resveratrol, CoQ10 comes in a cis- and trans- form, and also like resveratrol, all of the studies seem to have been done on the trans- form.

Stephen

[Fredrik]

Any opinions on topical CoQ10? I saw the following on LEF's site:

Interesting factoid: like resveratrol, CoQ10 comes in a cis- and trans- form, and also like resveratrol, all of the studies seem to have been done on the trans- form.

Stephen

Thanx for posting. Just adding some additional info. LEF calls the researchers just non-descript "german scientists". Saying it´s NIVEA doesn´t sound scientific enough I guess (though it should, Nivea is a high-tech cosmetic company).

The research comes from the cosmetic company Beiersdorf (Nivea, Eucerin, Juvena etc) I´ve read their study, or rather speculations, got it on my hard drive. Topical Q10 MAY decrease collagenase a bit, just like many other antioxidants. But one small inhouse study is not enough I think.

But Niveas topical Q10 products are affordable so why not try using it in conjunction with topical vitamin C.

I´m more excited by Agiderms topical DNA repair enzymes (used by many high-end brands) and Loreals sugar-protein hybrid made from xylose that they claim stimulates hyaluronic acid and collagen synthesis (trademark name: pro-xylane). But Loreal has published nothing about it in any journals, I just find the idea interesting and treat it lika an ordinary moisturizer in addition to the actives I already use (sunscreen, c + e and retinoids).

Pro-xylane article, beware...this is PR- material =)
http://www.timesonli...ticle690392.ece

I use a cream with 5% of this modified sugar as a night eyecream (brand name: Substiane). Contains glycerine and butyrospermum parkii (shea butter) so it´s a great barrier strengthening cream when using a retinoid, even if this hydroxypropyl tetrahydropyrantriol molecule does nothing.

Edited by fredrik, 21 October 2007 - 11:43 PM.

[jubai]

Woah, crazy thread


Following studies and reading this thread, I have managed to have some Retin-A shipped to Canada (even though it's prescription only, thank you for your concern dear law makers but I can make my own decisions on this subject, please stick to catching thugs, violent criminels and fiscal frauders, thank you!)

I used it 3 times, very small quantity of 0.5% mixed with Aloes. The first day after I had some very slight redness and tingling, but not anymore. I can already see an improvement in tone and elasticity, I'm even losing my 3-4 "primary" forehead lines, or at least I have to frown to see them now??? Woah.

It should be noted that I have (or used to have) rosacea and a sensivitve skin. No problems this far.


Pro-Retinol (weak version) was one of the only thing who helped my skin back when I had real skin problems with inflamation and sensibility.

The thing that saved my skin was accutane at 1/20 the normal dosage (1-2mg day) back then, which all doctors and dermatologists didn't want to prescribe me, even though other options weren't working and current research + real specialists knew low dose accutane was the best thing to break the cycle of inflammation.

If it weren's for those Indian pharmacies, my face would have continue getting worse to the point of permanent disfiguration and social phobia.

Thank you doctors, but no thanks.


Great thread!

[tintinet]

Xylose? or Xylitol?

Effects of a long-term dietary xylitol supplementation on collagen content and fluorescence of the skin in aged rats.
Gerontology. 2005 May-Jun;51(3):166-9.
Dietary xylitol has been shown to increase the amounts of newly synthesized collagen, and to decrease fluorescence of the collagenase-soluble fraction in the skin of both healthy and diabetic rats. As in diabetic rats, a decreased rate of collagen synthesis and increased collagen fluorescence has also been detected in the skin of aged rats. We hypothesize that dietary xylitol supplementation may protect against these changes during aging. OBJECTIVE: The purpose of the present study was to investigate whether a long-term dietary supplementation can protect against the decrease in the amounts of newly synthesized collagen, and against the increase in fluorescence in the collagenase-soluble fraction in the skin of aged rats. Twenty-four male Sprague-Dawley rats were used in the study. After weaning, the rats were divided into 2 groups of 12 animals. The rats in the control group were fed a basal RM1 diet, while the rats in the experimental group were fed the same diet supplemented with 10% xylitol. After 20 months, the rats were killed and pieces of skin from their dorsal areas were excised. The thickness of the samples was measured with a micrometer screw gauge. The collagen contents of rat skin were measured as hydroxyproline, and glycosylation as fluorescent intensity of collagen. Statistical significances of the differences between the groups were determined using the unpaired t test. RESULTS: No general side effects were detected in the rats during the experimental period. The skin of the xylitol-fed rats was a little thicker than that of the control rats. The hydroxyproline content of the acid-soluble fraction was significantly greater in the xylitol group as compared to the controls. However, there were no significant differences in the hydroxyproline content of the collagenase-soluble fraction between the groups. The fluorescence of the collagenase-soluble fraction was significantly smaller in the xylitol-fed aged rats than in the aged rats fed the basal diet. The results of this study indicate that xylitol caused an increase in the amount of newly synthesized collagen and a decrease in collagen fluorescence in the skin of aged rats.

[efosse]

Ain't this (i.e., xylitol) stuff used in sugarless gum? hmmm...

[sdxl]

Who is going to add an additional 10% xylitol to his diet? A few grams or even 10 or 20 grams is practical, but 10% no way. And yes it is the same stuff used in gum.

L'Oréal's Pro-Xylane maybe rivaled by Seppic's Aquaxyl (xylitylglucoside, anhydroxylitol, xylitol), which is used in many cosmetics. But there is no way of telling without comparative studies. At least the patent application looks promising.

[Fredrik]

yeah, I remember that xylitol rat study. That would be a great side effect of using xylitol based dentifrices and mouth pastilles/chewing gums!

Also, I will start supplementing with glucosamine 1500 mg a day now that a 6 month human trial showed no increase in insulin or glucose in the subjects (a former concern I had after a rat study showed increased glucose levels).

Glucosamine could potentially increase the amount of proteoglycans not only in the joints but also in the skin. That would lead to increased hydration and plumping of the skin from within after 2-3 months of supplementation. I will give it a try, pure glucosamine sulfate pills without the marketing add ons are cheap.

Edited by fredrik, 22 October 2007 - 05:10 PM.

[resveratrol]

Ain't this (i.e., xylitol) stuff used in sugarless gum? hmmm...

It's used in some kinds of sugarless gum, but not all of them; from what I've seen only around 10-20% of the sugar-free gum brands seem to have xylitol. If you're looking to increase xylitol intake, there's a form of bubblegum specifically oriented toward xylitol, plus a tasty xylitol toothpaste I've been using for a little over a year now, at this link.

[Athanasios]

Any opinions on topical CoQ10?

I am pro COQ10. There is some decent research on it and idebenone. It can boost the levels of COQ10 in the skin which is important for proper cellular function as your levels decline with age. It can make a dramatic difference if in the right concentration. You need .5% to get most the benefits.

Example:

J Cosmet Dermatol. 2005 Sep;4(3):167-73.Links
    Clinical efficacy assessment in photodamaged skin of 0.5% and 1.0% idebenone.
    McDaniel D, Neudecker B, Dinardo J, Lewis J 2nd, Maibach H.

    Institute of Anti-Aging Research, Eastern Virginia Medical School, Norfolk, VA, USA.

    Idebenone is an antioxidant lower molecular weight analogue of coenzyme Q10. Previously, idebenone was shown to be a very effective antioxidant in its ability to protect against cell damage from oxidative stress in a variety of biochemical, cell biological, and in vivo methods, including its ability to suppress sunburn cell (SBC) formation in living skin. However, no clinical studies have been previously conducted to establish the efficacy of idebenone in a topical skincare formulation for the treatment of photodamaged skin. In this nonvehicle control study, 0.5% and 1.0% idebenone commercial formulations were evaluated in a clinical trial for topical safety and efficacy in photodamaged skin. Forty-one female subjects, aged 30-65, with moderate photodamaged skin were randomized to use a blind labelled (either 0.5% or 1.0% idebenone in otherwise identical lotion bases) skincare preparation twice daily for six weeks. Blinded expert grader assessments for skin roughness/dryness, fine lines/wrinkles, and global improvement in photodamage were performed at baseline, three weeks and six weeks. Electrical conductance readings for skin surface hydration and 35 mm digital photography were made at baseline after six weeks. Punch biopsies were taken from randomly selected subjects, baseline and after six weeks, and stained for certain antibodies (interleukin IL-6, interleukin IL-1b, matrixmetalloproteinase MMP-1, collagen I) using immunofluorescence microscopy. After six weeks' use of the 1.0% idebenone formula, a 26% reduction in skin roughness/dryness was observed, a 37% increase in skin hydration, a 29% reduction in fine lines/wrinkles, and a 33% improvement in overall global assessment of photodamaged skin. For the 0.5% idebenone formulation, a 23% reduction in skin roughness/dryness was observed, a 37% increase in skin hydration, a 27% reduction in fine lines/wrinkles, and a 30% improvement in overall global assessment of photodamaged skin. The immunofluorescence staining revealed a decrease in IL-1b, IL-6, and MMP-1 and an increase in collagen I for both concentrations.

    PMID: 17129261 [PubMed - in process]

[Fredrik]

Any opinions on topical CoQ10?

I am pro COQ10. There is some decent research on it and idebenone. It can boost the levels of COQ10 in the skin which is important for proper cellular function as your levels decline with age. It can make a dramatic difference if in the right concentration. You need .5% to get most the benefits.

I mailed the main author McDaniel when that paper was published and got his secretary to send the whole article (that Allergan ordered from them) to me. It was a small really poor study, made just so that Allergan could wave with a "scientific" inhouse paper.

They measured interleukin 6 and speculated that by lowering that they would spare collagen. To much speculation and to little hard histological findings for my taste. Any cream can increase skin hydration with 37%. Hell if you take a shower and use a moisturizer you will increase skin hydration several hundred percent for a couple of hours.

I tried the original 1% formulation and got hives, as many others have. Then I ordered the new formula that Elizabeth Arden helped Allergan with Prevage MD. Got hives again. But I´m not sorry.

Neither Q10 or idebenone can protect against photoaging like ascorbic acid + tocopherol can:

"Ubiquinone, idebenone, and kinetin provide ineffective photoprotection to skin when compared to a topical antioxidant combination of vitamins C and E with ferulic acid."

J Invest Dermatol. 2006 May;126(5):1185-7.
PMID: 16528359

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum


The article "Antioxidants investigated" on the commercial site "Dermadoctor" actually explains the above stude in laymans terms:

http://www.dermadoct.....3FA77ED34D72}

[stephen_b]

Thanks cnorwood for the study. It doesn't look like they had a group with pure base (0% idebenone), unless I'm reading it wrong. Wouldn't that be a glaring flaw, since maybe the base caused the improvement?

Stephen

[Fredrik]

Thanks cnorwood for the study. It doesn't look like they had a group with pure base (0% idebenone), unless I'm reading it wrong. Wouldn't that be a glaring flaw, since maybe the base caused the improvement?

Stephen

You´re right. There is no way they could say that any improvement was from idebenone because they never compared it to the base cream itself. I´m holding the paper in my hand right now:

"In this NONVEHICLE control study 0.5% and 1.0% idebenone commercial formulations were evaluated..." (my emphasis in capital letters)

41 subjects used the creams for six weeks.