197 replies to this topic

[Fredrik]

Thanks fredrik for that clarification on retin-a, that makes sense! I've read a bunch of articles on Retin-A and always heard positive long-term effects on skin aging (even though there is enhanced photosensitivity).

One note, however -- I've been looking into lasers for skin "rejuvenation" and the fraxel is much better than the IPL for photoaging (not to mention scars and neoplastic skin disorders such as sebacious hyperplasia).

No prob.

Depends on what you mean with better. If your collagen isn´t severly damaged and depleted in the first place I wouldn´t risk damage it further with a fractional thermolysis treatment (thinking of pigmentation problems that can occur with invasive lasers). In that case I think IPL and peels are better. All invasive lasers (like Fraxel and Co2 etc) works by first damaging skin and the healing that ensues replaces the damaged collagen with fresh undamaged.

I would only use Fraxel if I was displeased with the texture of my skin (I´m 31 so acids and retinoids can take care of that for now). So for maintenance I think non-invasive treatments like IPL is just fine, but for treating more damaged skin certainly Fraxel and other treatments that damage the photoaged collagen is more effective (and more risky).

[efosse]

Yup, I'd definitely like to improve my skin texture, thus the fraxel

In case anyone else is reading this, though, and not to oversell the fraxel b/c it IS d*mn expensive (about 1k a session) -- but the fraxel is not even nearly as invasive as the CO2. When you receive the CO2 laser it burns off the epidermis down the dermis, with a long downtime as your skin heals. The problem is that this results in the "shiny" look -- think of Joan Rivers. In contrast the fraxel damages only a fraction (15-25%) of the skin, but enough to maintain the cellular structure of the epidermis intact -- so after a series of fraxels 4-5 weeks apart you still have your true epidermis, but this time plumped with fresh collagen. And pigmentation problems are relatively low with the fraxel, even for people with darker skin (i.e., IV+). In short -- I'd recommend the fraxel to many, many more people than the CO2, which is really an outdated procedure.

Another laser people should consider is the Smoothbeam. It's a nonablative pulsed dye laser that penetrates deeper than the IPL and accordingly requires fewer sessions. It basically works by heating up the sebacious glands, so a nice plus in addition to collagen production is reduced long-term sebum production and hence less acne.

So if I were to summarize available lasers/lilght/peel/sanding treatments in terms of decreasing efficacy for photo-rejuvenation, I'd rank as follows:

1. CO2 or Erbium-Yag (I'd never recommend these, too invasive)
2. Fraxel
3. Dermabrasion (I'd never recommend this, too invasive)
4. Smoothbeam
5. Cooltouch
6. high concentration TCA peels
7. Intense Pulsed Ligh (IPL)
8. Microdermabrasion (really rather a waste of money imho)

[luminous]

Fredrik, thank you so much for that info! I think I'll definitely look into the Tazorac. BTW when I read that thing about Retin-A being the "diamond", it was well before tazarotene was around. The comparison in that article was between tretinoin and OTC retinols. Oh, and thanks for the research about C + E ferulic. You're absolutely right that it seems to come out ahead of idebenone. So once I'm finished with my current Prevage, I'll take your advice about Skinceuticals C + E ferulic serum in small sample bottles.

I don't think you mentioned exfoliating. I've read that Retin-A is not a true exfoliator. But I'm wondering if exfoliation is all that important--and also whether it causes inflammation. Inflammation is not a good thing in terms of aging, as we all know.

As for sunscreens, I'm currently using Neutrogena with helioplex--with a 70 (yes, seventy) SPF. I kind of wonder if that's overkill, but my thought was that I wouldn't have to slather copious amounts on my face, which is already oily enough to begin with.

Anyway, thanks again.

[Fredrik]

Fredrik, thank you so much for that info!  I think I'll definitely look into the Tazorac.  BTW when I read that thing about Retin-A being the "diamond", it was well before tazarotene was around.  The comparison in that article was between tretinoin and OTC retinols.  Oh, and thanks for the research about C + E ferulic.  You're absolutely right that it seems to come out ahead of idebenone.  So once I'm finished with my current Prevage, I'll take your advice about Skinceuticals C + E ferulic serum in small sample bottles.

I don't think you mentioned exfoliating.  I've read that Retin-A is not a true exfoliator.  But I'm wondering if exfoliation is all that important--and also whether it causes inflammation.  Inflammation is not a good thing in terms of aging, as we all know.
 
As for sunscreens, I'm currently using Neutrogena with helioplex--with a 70 (yes, seventy) SPF.  I kind of wonder if that's overkill, but my thought was that I wouldn't have to slather copious amounts on my face, which is already oily enough to begin with.   

Anyway, thanks again.

Good to hear you´re using a photostable high-UVA US sunscreen! There are only three good stable brands in the states: Loreals Anthelios, Neutrogena and Aveeno. You will find better sunscreens with higher UVA-protection in europe though (PPD 35 instead of 15-19) if you order them online. Most of them are made in france.

I´ve mentioned peeling in several posts. Peels are exfoliating...really exfoliating. I think you will find the 15% acid (ascorbic acid) in Skinceuticals C + E ferulic together with tazarotene quite enough in the beginning.

When you want more exfoliation use a salicylic acid cleanser. Neutrogena makes really good ones (Johnson & Johnson has done the best research on salicylic acid and retinols). Or schedule to have a salicylic acid peel 20-30% at a dermatologist. Salicylic acid isn´t as inflammatory as glycolic.

And in order to increase collagen some amount of inflammation is a crucial part of the wound-heal response.

Edited by fredrik, 15 August 2007 - 02:14 PM.

[neogenic]

What would be the dream formulation?  If you guys could put it all together.  No mention of Spin traps.  Why not combine in a sunless tanner, like the forskolin?

My dream cream would have SPF 200 and PPD 200 (UVA). It wouldn´t be sticky, pore clogging or whitening.

It would contain ascorbic acid 15%, 1% tocopherol, selenium, ferulic acid, curcumin, genistein, l-ergothionine and silymarine.

The DNA repair enzyme T4 endonuclease V (the investigative drug Dimericine).

It would contain an iron chelator to minimize UV-induced ROS and erythema.

It would contain hyaluronic acid of the right molecular weight, xylose and glucosamine to stimulate GAG-synthesis (the sugars that binds water and brings volume to the skin).

Further it would contain a low amount of anti-inflammatory salicylic acid bound to a fatty acid to decrease irritation, capryoyl salicylic acid. This would with time refine the skin surface and decrease pore size without flaking.

Oh, I wish! But instead I have to use separate products to get all of the above (and the dream sunscreen I described doesn´t exist, they´re all more or less greasy or if not they´re whitening or ineffective).

That was a stunningly well thought out and researched answer. So what products are you presently using to achieve this? Any homebrewing? What about spin traps?

[Fredrik]

That was a stunningly well thought out and researched answer.  So what products are you presently using to achieve this?  Any homebrewing?  What about spin traps?

All of the above except the investigative drug Dimericine can be found in a drugstore or online. You only have to know where to look, and that is beyond the marketing and straight at the ingredient list. All you need to know is there.

I know you guys don´t want to believe this but topical antioxidants aren´t that impressive. A good sunscreen is much more protective against photodamage. The C + E ferulic (which is the best researched out there) gives a protection that equals spf 8. A sunscreen with spf 15 saves your skin from 55% of the free radicals, that is something that no current topical antioxidant product can do.

The reason I don´t use any of the herbal extracts above is that there is no finished product that has been tested on humans and proven effective. But there´s lots of studies showing that 5-20% of substance X in ethanol/propylene glycol can do this or that on the shaved back of a RAT. But that is not good enough. Show me human results with the finished product.



MY DAILY SKINCARE REGIME


AM

I take one pill of Heliocare before breakfast. It gives total body protection that equals about spf 3 for 4 hours.

1. A cheap gentle cleanser alternated with a salicylic acid cleanser in the summer. Don´t ever waste money on cleansers or moisturizers. You don´t get what you pay for.

2. Topical antioxidant on face, eye area, neck and lips:
Skinceuticals C + E ferulic serum (15% ascorbic acid, 1% tocopherol and 0.5% ferulic acid)

wait 30 minutes to let the ascorbic acid absorb without interference from a higher pH sunscreen. It needs to stay at pH below 3.5 to penetrate the stratum corneum.

3. Sunscreen on face, eye area, lips, neck and hands. Reapply 1-2 times under the day:
Loreals La Roche Posay Anthelios fluid extreme spf 50+ with seven UV-filters or Bioderma Photoderm fluide or lait spf 50+, Anthelios body 50+ and a
swedish brand lip sunscreen spf 30. Always dark sunglasses and a stylish (or silly if you like) panama hat or a baseball cap.


PM

1. same as AM

2. Retinoid:
Tazarotene 0.05% gel. Two times a week I boost it with tretinoin 0.025% gel underneath. Soon I will add Remergent DNA repair serum under the taz.

3. If needed:
cheap moisturizing gel (glycerine, pantothene and hyaluronic acidl).


MOISTURISERS

Cannot prevent or treat aging skin. They can only prevent or treat dry skin. Lack of moisture will NOT lead to wrinkles, but dryness can make your skin look worse. Use any damn moisturizer you like as long as it doesn´t cost more than $25.

The big drugstore brands have poured more millions into research than any other companies and they have their own labs. They buy and often use the same ingredients as the high end brands. Try them out first. The big players are Beiersdorf (Nivea, Eucerin), Procter & Gamble (Oil of Olay), Johnson & Johnson (Neutrogena, ROC), Loreal (the bodyshop, Lancome, Loreal Paris, Biotherm). Another good high end company who do some research is Estee Lauder (Clinique).

Good moisturizing agents to look for are: glycerine, urea, dimethicone, petrolatum, shea butter, hyaluronic acid and helianthus annus oil (sunflower seed oil).

Edited by fredrik, 16 August 2007 - 04:04 AM.

[efosse]

Thanks for your skincare regimen, Fredrik!

[EmbraceUnity]

Fredrik,

So you are recommending sunscreen year round? Even for someone who spends almost no time in the sun? This would require extra Vitamin D for sure.

I take it that I should probably learn to be content with my pale skin. I am not about to buy a spray-on tan, considering it would be a big waste of money, and not exactly the most manly thing to do.

Or are there other reasonable options?

[Fredrik]

Fredrik,

So you are recommending sunscreen year round? Even for someone who spends almost no time in the sun? This would require extra Vitamin D for sure.

I take it that I should probably learn to be content with my pale skin. I am not about to buy a spray-on tan, considering it would be a big waste of money, and not exactly the most manly thing to do.

Or are there other reasonable options?

Yes I do, but foremost the American Association of Dermatology, the skin cancer foundation and lots of other organisations are recommending year round use of sunscreen.

When researcher put UV-dosimeters on a group of people they averaged 18 hours of sun in one week! And they had no clue. You sit by a window, go to your car, get out for lunch and take a walk after work. It adds up. The sun is out from dusk to dawn even when you´re not at the beach.

Ahem, what exactly is so positive about "manly" things? War, domestic violence and rape are also predominantly MANLY things so being manly can´t be all good in itself, can it?

Live up to your name progressive and be a little girly and use spray-on tan if you like, your sexual preferences will stay exactly the same after the tan wears off. Promise! [thumb]

says this manly girlyman

Edited by fredrik, 16 August 2007 - 04:00 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

Thanks for the advice, you do seem to know your stuff on this topic. I will research more about this. If it turns out that any of these sunscreens and retinoids have other effects, such as increasing the risk of cancer, then I can do without supple skin.

By the way, my friend has psoriasis and I am wondering if you would recommend your regimen for her, or something slightly different.

As for manliness, there is nothing superior or inferior about it. I was somewhat joking when I made the comment, though there are social consequences for being perceived as effeminate. Not that I have ever much cared about social consequences in general, despite their possible utilitarian functions, which is probably one of my flaws.

I just think the idea of a spray-on tan is kind of ridiculous. A lot of trouble for a temporary fake tan. Metrosexuality is progressive in a meaningless way, since it has no significant economic or political consequences. Spray-on tans are about as techno-progressive as temporary tattoos.

[Fredrik]

No prob!

Retinoids will decrease your risk for cancer by preventing actinic keratoses so you need not worry about that. Some of the filters (lika uncoated titanium dioxide) can generate free radicals when irridated in a lab. But the thing is, the amount of free radicals generated by 5 minutes of unprotected exposure to the midday sun is far greater.

I agree with you, the idea of a spray-on tan is pretty ridiculous when you think of it. That´s the right word, ridiculous, not manly or un-manly =)
But if it prevents college kids from baking in the sun, they serve some purpose.

The active ingredient in sunless tanners, DHA = dihydroxyacetone, have shown some unfavourable effects on DNA in a lab study. But it mainly reacts with browning the dead protein layer so I don´t know about that. I would never use one and I also think pale can be very beautiful. The look of Scarlett Johansen, Dita Von Teese, Nicole Kidman, Madonna and Mandy Moore. They´re all pale and have beautiful firm radiant skin.

[EmbraceUnity]

Do you have any advice for my friend with psoriasis?

As for tans, I never wanted to be darkly tanned. I just would like to be less pale since it would seem to slightly improve my odds in dating. The only pale guys that are considered sexy are musicians, and I haven't much talent in music, haha. However, if there is no safe way to do this, then I could live without it.

I also have another question. I have a some sort of spot on my abdomen that I don't remember having my whole life, just for the past few years. It could be a birthmark though. It could also be a burn.

I researched birthmarks on Wikipedia and the term "Café au lait spot" pretty closely describes what it looks like, so it might just be random. It isn't a big deal, but is there any way to get rid of such a thing?

http://en.wikipedia....fé_au_lait_spot

[Fredrik]

Do you have any advice for my friend with psoriasis?

As for tans, I never wanted to be darkly tanned. I just would like to be less pale since it would seem to slightly improve my odds in dating. The only pale guys that are considered sexy are musicians, and I haven't much talent in music, haha. However, if there is no safe way to do this, then I could live without it.

I also have another question. I have a some sort of spot on my abdomen that I don't remember having my whole life, just for the past few years. It could be a birthmark though. It could also be a burn.

I researched birthmarks on Wikipedia and the term "Café au lait spot" pretty closely describes what it looks like, so it might just be random. It isn't a big deal, but is there any way to get rid of such a thing?

http://en.wikipedia....fé_au_lait_spot

The advice I have for your friend with psoriasis is to go see a dermatologist specialising in this disease. There are excellent prescription vitamin D analog creams and oral medication for the more serious cases. Tazarotene was originally a psoriasis treatment and it can be used in conjuction with the vitamin D medication (taz is very anti-inflammatory). Vitamin D in the morning, a 10% urea cream in the day to relieve itching and tazarotene in the evening.

He can also try and see if supplementation of EPA + DHA from fish oil can decrease flare ups. Polypodium Leucotomos (Heliocare) has also been used for psoriasis and it can protect from the psoralen UVA-light treatment that are used to decrease psoriasis symtoms.

Sorry, I´m no dermatologist or laser specialist so I think you should show your pigmentation mark to a dermatologist who specialises in laser treatments. Tri-luma is a prescription cream that can lighten some pigmentation. I´m positive you can ligthen it significantly with lasers but there´s always a risk for scarring so do your research carefully and don´t listen to random guys on the net like me =)

I wish you luck!

[efosse]

Hey progressive,

Haha, I guess I'm the resident "expert" on lasers (but note that I'm not one!). For the cafe au lait mark talk to a derm or surgeon -- it can be entirely removed very easily with a 510 pulsed dye laser. There is mixed evidence, however, on how long the removal lasts. It's believed to be permanent if you go several times.

I had a number of "sun spots" removed with this laser -- now they're almost entirely gone. Now that I'm on my retin-a regimen I anticipate they will gradually fade even more.

As far as psoriasis, yeah they can remove that to some extent but not as well as pigmentation and (very) fine lines.

cheers,
efosse

[Fredrik]

Interestingly, domestic violence among gay couples occurs at about the same rate as heterosexual couples:

http://www.psychpage...les_intro2.html


P.S. Thanks Fredrick for all the great skincare info you've shared.

I know, we gays can be pretty violent. The other day I had to slap my friend Lars, the gay skinhead, around when he couldn´t tell Yves Klein blue from ORDINARY cobalt blue. You don´t wanna mess with my color coordinated wardrobe. It became fierce!


P.S. Thanks D.S.

Edited by fredrik, 16 August 2007 - 08:30 PM.

[sentinel]

“drumroll” OK Fredrik, lets get down to it. you talk good research and a fair degree of "pinch of salt" pragmatism, the kind of investigation I like to apply myself. I'm impressed.

But... Are you prepared to do the acid test (pun intended) and show us a photo or 2 of what your skin looks like close up (or at least larger then your avatar) so we can see the benefits of your research, discipline and belief in your deductions. I have every respect for your opinions and practice backed by "real" ie relevant human research.

…But the channel hopping, instant gratification, vain mofo in me would love to see where you have actually got yourself. BAM (By All Means) photo shop out your eyes (but these are the worst area we all know to maintain a degree of anonymity… and who knows, maybe an admirer will PM you (they say flattery will get you everywhere, in this case I think your consistent level of research and patient answers to sometimes repeated answers deserve a pat on the back!) Good man!

Sentinel

[Fredrik]

“drumroll” OK Fredrik, lets get down to it. you talk good research and a fair degree of "pinch of salt" pragmatism, the kind of investigation I like to apply myself. I'm impressed.

But... Are you prepared to do the acid test (pun intended) and show us a photo or 2 of what your skin looks like close up (or at least larger then your avatar) so we can see the benefits of your research, discipline and belief in your deductions. I have every respect for your opinions and practice backed by "real" ie relevant human research.

…But the channel hopping, instant gratification, vain mofo in me would love to see where you have actually got yourself. BAM (By All Means) photo shop out your eyes  (but these are the worst area we all know  to maintain a degree of anonymity… and who knows, maybe an admirer will PM you    (they say flattery will get you everywhere, in this case I think your consistent level of research and patient answers to sometimes repeated answers deserve a pat on the back!) Good man!

Sentinel

No, sorry, I don´t want my appearance scrutinized and critizised by a bunch of faceless avatars on the internets I have nothing to hide but nothing I have to prove either.

I´m paler than most guys in the summer, little red undertones from childhood sundamage (caused by being alive), some enlarged pores in the t-zone from the excess oil output of puberty, no wrinkles at rest but visible wrinkles in the corners of my eye and naso-labial lines when I smile. As most people in their 30s. Also some in the forehead when I look surprised. So I have not used botox as you hear. But my skin texture is better than most other 30 somethings and I attribute that to sun avoidance, retinoids and acids (ascorbic, salicylic).


You can see some unretouched before and afters of users on the Renova and Avage websites. The more photodamage you have in the beginning the more drastic the effect will be. Otherwise it will be subtle and more of a preventative.


Renova (tretinoin):

http://www.aboutreno...hoto_case01.jpg

http://www.aboutreno...hoto_case02.jpg

http://www.aboutreno...oreandafter.asp


Avage (tazarotene)

http://avage.com/ProvenPower.asp#002

[my8086]

Fredrik, out of curiosity (I'm not so lazy as not to search the forums, but it seems to be on topic in this case), what do you think of Melanotan? Particularly MTII? Not for cosmetic reasons, but to prevent sunburn. By increasing 'tolerance' to sun, does it prevent or slow skin aging or wrinkles? Again, I know I could probably find this in a search, but I'm honestly interested in your opinion.

[Fredrik]

Fredrik, out of curiosity (I'm not so lazy as not to search the forums, but it seems to be on topic in this case), what do you think of Melanotan? Particularly MTII? Not for cosmetic reasons, but to prevent sunburn. By increasing 'tolerance' to sun, does it prevent or slow skin aging or wrinkles? Again, I know I could probably find this in a search, but I'm honestly interested in your opinion.

I would stay away from hormone treatments like Melanotan at this time. To little testing and it hasn´t been tested at all to prevent or treat photoaging (the only hormone I feel confident messing with is vitamin D, which is a vitamin but gets activated and turns into a hormone in the kidneys).

Melanotan and UV-damage both induces skin darkening. What if some of these pathway actually have unknown negative effects? Use sunscreen and wait until more is known about the side effects.

I would go for polypodium leucotomos extract 240 mg, 1 hour before eating and divided in two separate doses a day. It will prevent photoaging, although not as effectively as a sunscreen. Heliocare gives a total body protection of spf 3 (that would equal one using spf 20, because everyone uses to little sunscreen) for 3-4 hours, lessens erythema and decreases collagenase and also protects elastin.

www.heliocare.com

[efosse]

Hey Fredrik,

What's your take on forskolin? It appears to darken the skin but without sun exposure....

cheers,
efosse

[neogenic]

Well, Fredrik this is your thread now...

I didn't catch your opinion on spin traps, beyond that of antioxidants. Companies such as Geranova are getting huge sales of the bulk supply of these compounds for the cosmeceutical market for anti-aging creme/serums. There's many hitting the market from high-end boutique stuff down to the big mass-market players.

I'd like to hear your thoughts as this is being promoted as a huge leap and we'll see many products hitting the market with this...expensive products.

[Fredrik]

Well, Fredrik this is your thread now...

I didn't catch your opinion on spin traps, beyond that of antioxidants.  Companies such as Geranova are getting  huge sales of the bulk supply of these compounds for the cosmeceutical market for anti-aging creme/serums.  There's many hitting the market from high-end boutique stuff down to the big mass-market players.

I'd like to hear your thoughts as this is being promoted as a huge leap and we'll see many products hitting the market with this...expensive products.

Well, I won´t hold my breath until I see some good human studies. As I wrote earlier, topical antioxidants are not doing anything impressive. At best they protect from ROS as good as a spf 8 sunscreen. So any sunscreen with spf over 8 will beat a moisturizer with antioxidants, no matter how expensive and exclusive they are.

So a short answer to your question is, no, I´m not excited by spin traps yet. Show me the human studies that prove they can minimize sun burned cell formation and erythema after UV-irridation better than C + E and we´ll take the discussion from there.

The most obvious topical antioxidants to use would be the one that skin uses itself for photoprotection. The main nonenzymic antioxidants IN the skin are ascorbic acid and gluthatione for the aqueous phase of the cells and tocopherol and ubiquinone-10 in the lipid phase, particularly the membranes. Gluthatione is a tripeptide so it won´t penetrate deeply enough and that makes it unsuitable for topical photoprotection.

They are not new, sexy or especially cool. But evolution had a couple of million years to try things out and it chose them. Eventually maybe we can improve on nature but I won´t rush out and by the latest new thing because those products are unproven and just driven by marketing.

Carnosine for example would be a good dipeptide if it could penetrate down to the dermis, which it cant because it´s to big. But it works on paper and in a lab but it won´t prevent aging in a skin cream. The same with most other cosmetic ingredients, you need a transporter like liposomes.

Lipoic acid is another example, looks extremely good on paper but failed to protect skin against UV-induced oxidative stress and erythema.

Idebenone also failed when compared to a topical l-ascorbic and tocopherol combination.

The gold standard in topical antioxidant protection ist still...ta-dah: L-ASCORBIC ACID + TOCOPHEROL

Those two work together, they penetrate the skin, recycle and becomes a part of the skin that cannot be washed off and the vitamin C may even stimulate collagen III synthesis. No other antioxidant can directly stimulate collagen.

One thing that is clear by watching the never ending output of firming, lightening, anti-wrinkling and moisturizing creams is that they are generally NOT coming out of any evidence based medicine and when they talk of efficiency they are talking about in vitro studies with fibroblasts in a petri dish.

Edited by fredrik, 20 August 2007 - 01:01 AM.

[my8086]

Fredrik, out of curiosity (I'm not so lazy as not to search the forums, but it seems to be on topic in this case), what do you think of Melanotan? Particularly MTII? Not for cosmetic reasons, but to prevent sunburn. By increasing 'tolerance' to sun, does it prevent or slow skin aging or wrinkles? Again, I know I could probably find this in a search, but I'm honestly interested in your opinion.

I would stay away from hormone treatments like Melanotan at this time. To little testing and it hasn´t been tested at all to prevent or treat photoaging (the only hormone I feel confident messing with is vitamin D, which is a vitamin but gets activated and turns into a hormone in the kidneys).

Melanotan and UV-damage both induces skin darkening. What if some of these pathway actually have unknown negative effects? Use sunscreen and wait until more is known about the side effects.

I would go for polypodium leucotomos extract 240 mg, 1 hour before eating and divided in two separate doses a day. It will prevent photoaging, although not as effectively as a sunscreen. Heliocare gives a total body protection of spf 3 (that would equal one using spf 20, because everyone uses to little sunscreen) for 3-4 hours, lessens erythema and decreases collagenase and also protects elastin.

www.heliocare.com

Great thanks, didn't know about polypodium leucotomos. I was more interested in the protective effects of Melanotan than tanning, but you make a very good point that it may not actually prevent photo-aging. I've got very light skin, even with high spf I will burn after 90 minutes of exposure. Wife and kids have no problems (guess they got her skin), but I have trouble keeping up with them at the beach or pool because I always burn! Thanks for the reply, I'll check out polypodium leucotomos and Heliocare.

[Fredrik]

Hey Fredrik,

What's your take on forskolin? It appears to darken the skin but without sun exposure....

cheers,
efosse

Why would anyone want to darken their skin? I think caucasians that tan look unhealthy. You won´t tan unless you first damage your DNA (but new technologies may indeed change that). A tan is a visual proof of the pathology beneath the surface: DNA-breaks, collagen and elastin degeneration, melanocyte damage and inflammation (the red face many get before they tan). Hispanics for example have a beautiful color of their skin, love it, but I want to keep my skin the color I came packaged with. Love the skin you´re in, so to say.

People that practice sun avoidance and use sunscreen can minimize damage to their melanocytes and will have a soft translucent quality to their skin instead of the mottled dyspigmentation that accumulates with every year of unprotected exposure. It is called "radiance" and it comes with youth because young people haven´t had the time to damage their skin enough yet.

On the other hand. If these technologies can give a total body protection of say SPF 7 or higher with no side effects that would be amazing and could benefit people with liver & kidney transplants for example that are at a much higher risk of skin cancer than the rest of the population.

But as I said in my previous post about Melanotan. I would be very careful. If it can induce a tanning response what else is it doing to your body? I don´t know. A conservative wait and see for me.

Edited by fredrik, 20 August 2007 - 02:20 AM.

[curious_sle]

Frederik, is there any (inexpensive :-) ) cream containing c+e on iherb you'd recomend? :-)

i forgot to mention i have the lef creams in the morning and evening variant... probably expensive hogwash of sorts...

[Fredrik]

Frederik, is there any (inexpensive :-) ) cream containing c+e on iherb you'd recomend? :-)

i forgot to mention i have the lef creams in the morning and evening variant... probably expensive hogwash of sorts...

Yes, the LEF creams are not only expensive hogwash but they are NOT proven to prevent skin aging at all. They will only moisturize and a good urea cream from Eucerin will do that job even better and is dirt cheap.

I suggest you drop the lef creams and get a a topical antioxidant treatment that is proven to decrease SCB (sun burned cells), erythema and DNA-damage. Not only in rats but in human in vivo.

No unfortubately you can´t buy them from iherb but from stores on ebay, that is most economical. See my other posts. Most C and E products are either unstable or contains stable but ineffective derivatives like askorbyl palmitate, tocopheryl acetate etc.

There are some good derivates, ascorbyl glucoside, magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (MAP) and sodium ascorbyl phosphate (SAP) but you ned 20% of these because they contain too little l-ascorbic acid.

These products contain stabilized l-ascorbic acid + E at the right pH:


1. Skinceuticals C + E ferulic (liquid; 15% C))

2. Skinmedica C complex (in a silicon base, 10% C and 5% derivate)

3. La Roche posay Redermic (5% C) and Redermic XL with spf 15 (5% C)


There may be a few others but I haven´t been looking to cheat on my Skinceuticals cause it rox!

If your skin is sensitive start using it every other day in the morning, under your sunscreen, and use it every day when you get no redness.

[iforgotmyname]

Hi, im the teen kid wanting to bake in the sun but caught this thread...

Shame the natural sun is our skins enemy, shouldn't be that way, what the hell did evolution provide there...

Anyway, so if this is all to prevent aging in skin, keep you free from cancer and the bad, how do you go about getting your skin looking vibrant and glowing, without artifical tanners. (I'm talking ingested supplements). I understand not going out on a scorching hot day, but I live near the equator, do I really need to put on sunscreen and all that sh#t on a cool cloudy day, or just a cool clear day?

[Fredrik]

I understand not going out on a scorching hot day, but I live near the equator, do I really need to put on sunscreen and all that sh#t on a cool cloudy day, or just a cool clear day?

If you want to keep your skin healthy as it is now and minimize your risk for cancer -YES (but you really only need sunscreen if you don´t want that other sh#t )!

If it is a cool or hot day doesn´t matter. You can´t feel or see UV-rays on your skin. It is infrared rays that feels warm.

80% of all signs of skin aging is caused by UV in daylight. Yes, daylight...not the sunny beach for a couple of months a year.

The skin gets damaged and ages everyday. But that permanent damage will show up a decade after you got it. You can prevent most of this by using a spf 30 - 50+.

UVA-radiation is present everyday, all year long. In winter, on cloudy days, when it´s raining and when the sun is scorching hot. So use a sunscreen instead of or on top of anything else you use.

95% of all UV-radiation that hits us is UVA.

Good you caught this thread! =)