280 replies to this topic

[wayside]

Finally, you have quite a bit of trust in big food companies.

I'm not defending the big food companies, except to say that I think their track record of not poisoning people is pretty good. I have confidence that a box of Kraft Mac and Cheese is less likely to kill me today than a baggie of powder bought from a faceless person on ebay.

Long term is a different story.

People here spend tremendous energy worrying about GMP certification and Chinese contamination and what-not, yet don't hesitate to eat unknown substances out of a non-sterile baggie, packed under non-sterile conditions. It's an interesting contradiction.

[tintinet]

Finally, you have quite a bit of trust in big food companies.

I'm not defending the big food companies, except to say that I think their track record of not poisoning people is pretty good. I have confidence that a box of Kraft Mac and Cheese is less likely to kill me today than a baggie of powder bought from a faceless person on ebay.

Long term is a different story.

People here spend tremendous energy worrying about GMP certification and Chinese contamination and what-not, yet don't hesitate to eat unknown substances out of a non-sterile baggie, packed under non-sterile conditions. It's an interesting contradiction.

Mweeeheeeeheeeehaha! Ever eaten at a restaurant?

[krillin]

Mweeeheeeeheeeehaha! Ever eaten at a restaurant?

I avoid them. Not cost-effective and I don't want to make the news as part of another hep A outbreak.

[DukeNukem]

I'm on this bandwagon now. I read about it in David William's newsletter a few months back, and given all the interest here, I figured what the hey. Adding about 3gm to my morning oatmeal dish. Doesn't seem to taste bad at all, at least when mixed up with everything else I toss into my oatmeal concoction.

[boily]

I'm also attempting to jump on the bandwagon too. However my 2lbs purchased off ebay has been seized by Australian customs.

[tintinet]

I'm also attempting to jump on the bandwagon too. However my 2lbs purchased off ebay has been seized by Australian customs.

Ah..the big external immune system! Doh!

[Brainbox]

For human species, if you really want ....... would this be more appropriate?

[ortcloud]

I'm also attempting to jump on the bandwagon too. However my 2lbs purchased off ebay has been seized by Australian customs.

So the government is trying to protect you from you trying to protecting you ?

Did the shipper declare it for human or animal use ?

[edward]

I've been skeptically watching this thread and have read the Epicor information and I am still wondering why old fashion brewer's yeast supplements would not be just as effective. Same ingredient the only difference is their "MetaGen4" process (see below). Which sounds great and all but strikes me a dripping with the kind of marketing hype and less than clear pseudoscience... Bakers/Brewer's yeast deprived of oxygen just at the point when they are the healthiest, at which point they are deprived of oxygen then the "proprietary" (I hate this word) blend of nutrients is added... Alright so after this happens.... supposedly "vital nutrients" are created which Epicor captures...

I need some double blind placebo controlled studies with perhaps traditional brewer's yeast supplements as either a control or a comparison group... Am I the only one?


The whole thing sounds good and all (playing on our fears of microbes, germs etc. and a miracle supplement boosting our resistance) EpiCor

"EpiCor begins as an all-natural simple yeast called Saccharomyces cerevisiae,
or “bakers yeast” that we provide with ample oxygen to help it grow
and thrive. Then our trade-secret MetaGen4™ process begins. At the
precise moment when the yeast cells are healthiest, we deprive them of
oxygen and a proprietary mix of nutrients is added. This anaerobic environment
stresses the cells and causes them to produce beneficial metabolites.Our next step is to dry this complex compound to capture the array of vital
nutrients that have been created."

edit:added link

Edited by edward, 04 January 2008 - 03:06 AM.

[niner]

I've been skeptically watching this thread and have read the Epicor information and I am still wondering why old fashion brewer's yeast supplements would not be just as effective. Same ingredient the only difference is their "MetaGen4" process (see below). Which sounds great and all but strikes me a dripping with the kind of marketing hype and less than clear pseudoscience... Bakers/Brewer's yeast deprived of oxygen just at the point when they are the healthiest, at which point they are deprived of oxygen then the "proprietary" (I hate this word) blend of nutrients is added... Alright so after this happens.... supposedly "vital nutrients" are created which Epicor captures...

I need some double blind placebo controlled studies with perhaps traditional brewer's yeast supplements as either a control or a comparison group... Am I the only one?

The whole thing sounds good and all (playing on our fears of microbes, germs etc. and a miracle supplement boosting our resistance) EpiCor

"EpiCor begins as an all-natural simple yeast called Saccharomyces cerevisiae, or “bakers yeast” that we provide with ample oxygen to help it grow and thrive. Then our trade-secret MetaGen4™ process begins. At the precise moment when the yeast cells are healthiest, we deprive them of oxygen and a proprietary mix of nutrients is added. This anaerobic environment stresses the cells and causes them to produce beneficial metabolites.Our next step is to dry this complex compound to capture the array of vital nutrients that have been created."

Edward, the process they describe results in a pretty big difference compared to the plain old yeast. The language in the quoted blurb is pretty flowery, and sounds to me like a marketing person read the technical description of what they do, then translated it into marketingese. Obviously, for people like us, it would have been better for them to leave the technical language, or at least give us an anti-emetic. I don't know of any double blind comparisons between EpiCor and brewers yeast, and don't expect to see one since I can't think of an economic driver for it. I've read that Embria (or whoever it was that did the development) has done a substantial amount of testing with the human product. I don't know how much if any it differs from the animal product, but at ten bucks a month for the human stuff (Swanson) I'm not going to run the experiment.

[edward]

Did a little searching on Ebay. Apparently one of these guys lives pretty close to me. I sent him a message and if he lets me pay him cash ill buy a few pounds from him and just pick it up and not pay the shipping (also I can take a look at his ahem packaging set up... whether he keeps it out in the tool shed with the tractor)...

Ok, ill give it a shot on the "it can't hurt" philosophy. As long as it is a fresh batch kept in a good environment I really don't see how this stuff could hurt, and it might help so what the heck, its cheap, from the reports it might even taste ok mixed with oatmeal or what not. The iron content is the only reservation I have along the lines of it can't hurt.

edit: maybe it will help with my insomnia as that seems to be a recurrent theme from the anecdotal reports

Edited by edward, 04 January 2008 - 04:53 AM.

[stephen_b]

Several have written about more vivid dreams with Diamond V. I've been taking epicore and have noticed the same thing, but also more nightmares than I would otherwise have (more vivid too -- yuck). Maybe taking it in the morning only would reduce this.

Stephen

[niner]

Several have written about more vivid dreams with Diamond V. I've been taking epicore and have noticed the same thing, but also more nightmares than I would otherwise have (more vivid too -- yuck). Maybe taking it in the morning only would reduce this.

Stephen

I take it in the morning only, and I haven't noticed any dream effects.

[senseix]

Just so everyone knows i take mine twice per day, once in the morning before breakfast or at breakfast and then after or at dinner. I do get vivid dreams alot, and lucky me they have all been positive, i do lead a pretty calm life so that might have something to do with my dreams, tho i couldn't tell you for sure why that is, i'm no expert.

[Brainbox]

I don't know how much if any it differs from the animal product, but at ten bucks a month for the human stuff (Swanson) I'm not going to run the experiment

Take this for breakfast, cheap and full of fibres.....

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[gordonkeith]

I stumbled upon this thread after a web search. I wanted to see if anyone is experiencing the same side effects that I am. I have been taking epicor for about 2 months now. My wife & three children, along with a few friends are also taking it.

The reason I began taking epicor is for severe seasonal allergies. The allergies which I believe are caused from grass pollens usually hit me in the Spring so I thought I would get a head start. From what I read, epicor could possibly help with the allergies along with cold & flu prevention. I can understand the "placebo effect", but since I did not read about any other effects from taking epicor, I can only imagine the side effects I am experiencing are real.

About a week after taking it, my sense of smell became very strong. My son who also suffers from allergies & asthma also noticed a strong sense of smell after taking it. Besides the Spring time allergies I also suffer from allergies that usually hit me around X-mas time. Up until yesterday I have experienced no allergies this Winter. Yesterday I began with the itchy eyes and sneezing. Today, I'm better but we will have to see. The Springtime will be the big test.

The biggest change I have noticed is my energy level. This is something I did not expect because I personally heard of no such thing in regards to epicor. I typically have a lot of energy but since taking it, I have an abundance of energy all day long. More than ever before. This energy is similar to that of caffeine but without the jitters. It is more like an excitable adrenaline energy than a caffeine energy. My wife and one of my friends taking it are experiencing the same energy. This energy does not effect my sleep. As a matter of fact, I have been sleeping slightly better and a little longer than I did prior to taking epicor. Pin the past, I have always had a problem sleeping as long as I wished to (only about 5 1/2 to 6 hours a night). Now I am sleeping 7 hours.

My wife has experience the only possible negative side effect. After taking epicor for about 2 weeks, her heart occasionally began skipping irregularly. Once she stopped taking it her heart has been beating normal. We are hoping this is coincidence. She will begin taking epicor again in about a week to see if it effects her heart again.
Has anyone else experienced this abundance of energy I am speaking of?
Anyone experience the occasional irregular heart beat?

I am taking it once a day in the pill form from a health/vitamine company.
Gordon

[tintinet]

I've been taking about 3 grams/day organic Diamond V XPC for a couple of months. I've noticed deep sound sleep with vivid dreams, and increased, sustained energy and wakefulness during the day, despite a schedule that often only allows me 4 to 5 hours sleep/night. I'd certainly sleep far longer if my schedule allowed.

I've also noticed increased olfactory acuity and sensitivity. I've never had allergies, so I can't address that issue. Throughout my adult life, I've only very intermittently been sick with anything- cold, flu, GI illness, headache, etc., so the absence of any illness since I started taking the V XPC a few months ago is not out of the ordinary for me.

No change in cardiac rhythm or rate, AFAIK.

I stumbled upon this thread after a web search. I wanted to see if anyone is experiencing the same side effects that I am. I have been taking epicor for about 2 months now. My wife & three children, along with a few friends are also taking it.

The reason I began taking epicor is for severe seasonal allergies. The allergies which I believe are caused from grass pollens usually hit me in the Spring so I thought I would get a head start. From what I read, epicor could possibly help with the allergies along with cold & flu prevention. I can understand the "placebo effect", but since I did not read about any other effects from taking epicor, I can only imagine the side effects I am experiencing are real.

About a week after taking it, my sense of smell became very strong. My son who also suffers from allergies & asthma also noticed a strong sense of smell after taking it. Besides the Spring time allergies I also suffer from allergies that usually hit me around X-mas time. Up until yesterday I have experienced no allergies this Winter. Yesterday I began with the itchy eyes and sneezing. Today, I'm better but we will have to see. The Springtime will be the big test.

The biggest change I have noticed is my energy level. This is something I did not expect because I personally heard of no such thing in regards to epicor. I typically have a lot of energy but since taking it, I have an abundance of energy all day long. More than ever before. This energy is similar to that of caffeine but without the jitters. It is more like an excitable adrenaline energy than a caffeine energy. My wife and one of my friends taking it are experiencing the same energy. This energy does not effect my sleep. As a matter of fact, I have been sleeping slightly better and a little longer than I did prior to taking epicor. Pin the past, I have always had a problem sleeping as long as I wished to (only about 5 1/2 to 6 hours a night). Now I am sleeping 7 hours.

My wife has experience the only possible negative side effect. After taking epicor for about 2 weeks, her heart occasionally began skipping irregularly. Once she stopped taking it her heart has been beating normal. We are hoping this is coincidence. She will begin taking epicor again in about a week to see if it effects her heart again.
Has anyone else experienced this abundance of energy I am speaking of?
Anyone experience the occasional irregular heart beat?

I am taking it once a day in the pill form from a health/vitamine company.
Gordon

Edited by tintinet, 13 January 2008 - 03:18 AM.

[edward]

I talked with the Ebay guy who lives near me and he would not let me go pick up the Diamond V from his house and insisted I pay the exorbitant shipping costs just to send the stuff across town. Left a real bad taste in my mouth so I haven't pursued this product further. But I might give it a go as I will be working in hospitals this semester around a bunch of sick people!!! OMG and any immune system enhancements can only be a good thing

[niner]

I stumbled upon this thread after a web search. I wanted to see if anyone is experiencing the same side effects that I am. I have been taking epicor for about 2 months now. My wife & three children, along with a few friends are also taking it.

The reason I began taking epicor is for severe seasonal allergies. The allergies which I believe are caused from grass pollens usually hit me in the Spring so I thought I would get a head start. From what I read, epicor could possibly help with the allergies along with cold & flu prevention. I can understand the "placebo effect", but since I did not read about any other effects from taking epicor, I can only imagine the side effects I am experiencing are real.

About a week after taking it, my sense of smell became very strong. My son who also suffers from allergies & asthma also noticed a strong sense of smell after taking it. Besides the Spring time allergies I also suffer from allergies that usually hit me around X-mas time. Up until yesterday I have experienced no allergies this Winter. Yesterday I began with the itchy eyes and sneezing. Today, I'm better but we will have to see. The Springtime will be the big test.

The biggest change I have noticed is my energy level. This is something I did not expect because I personally heard of no such thing in regards to epicor. I typically have a lot of energy but since taking it, I have an abundance of energy all day long. More than ever before. This energy is similar to that of caffeine but without the jitters. It is more like an excitable adrenaline energy than a caffeine energy. My wife and one of my friends taking it are experiencing the same energy. This energy does not effect my sleep. As a matter of fact, I have been sleeping slightly better and a little longer than I did prior to taking epicor. Pin the past, I have always had a problem sleeping as long as I wished to (only about 5 1/2 to 6 hours a night). Now I am sleeping 7 hours.

My wife has experience the only possible negative side effect. After taking epicor for about 2 weeks, her heart occasionally began skipping irregularly. Once she stopped taking it her heart has been beating normal. We are hoping this is coincidence. She will begin taking epicor again in about a week to see if it effects her heart again.
Has anyone else experienced this abundance of energy I am speaking of?
Anyone experience the occasional irregular heart beat?

I am taking it once a day in the pill form from a health/vitamine company.
Gordon

Most of these side effects (except the irregular heartbeat) sound pretty good. However, I've noticed none of them. The one thing that I think is real is that I haven't been getting sick as often as usual for this time of year. I've been exposed to other sick people in my family, and even had a couple viruses, but they seem to be acting like stealth colds. I have some of the symptoms, but don't really get sick. After a three month trial, I recently bought a half year's supply. Maybe I'm not taking enough to see the side effects? I just take one cap in the morning. It looks like about half a gram. That's the recommended dose.

[edward]

Ok, I finally ordered some of this stuff a few days ago. Went for the easy route and ordered the "human version" from Swanson vitamins. Hopefully I am getting a more concentrated version and don't have to take grams and grams of this stuff to get an effect (if I will be able to tell/feel anything at all). My plan is to take one 500 mg capsule in the morning and one 500 mg capsule at night and see how it goes. (yeah I know double the recommended dose... in general I have found the recommended dose of things to be about half what is actually needed, just a personal observation after taking supplements for about 15 years... yeah I started early at about age 14)

edit: spelling

Edited by edward, 18 January 2008 - 01:25 AM.

[edward]

Have been taking this stuff for 4 days now and I must say I can actually tell a difference (which is really saying something considering how much stuff I already take). Noticeable drop in sinus/allergy issues that I always have and just have gotten used to as part of life.

Increase in energy late in the day and a clearer head for longer periods of time. Usually I end up getting run down by the end of the day or if I study or work for long periods of time intensely my brain will get this foggy fried feeling that no supplement has been able to remedy, I have likened it to maxing out or working to fatigue in the gym, there is a point beyond which you can no longer continue and only rest will cure the problem. Apparently Epicor helps. Perhaps there is some sort of immune system issue when I work or study to the point of exhaustion.

Also sleeping a lot better.

Over all I like this stuff.

Currently I am taking 500 mg 3 times a day but plan to go down to my original plan of 500 mg twice a day.

[rintintin]

I read all of the posts and was still a bit nervous about eating animal feed, so I called Diamond V. Nice folks! Indeed, they did not recommend the XPC product for human consumption, so I asked about alternatives. I got a list of suppliers they recommended and checked each one out. You have to be careful....there are a few companies who sell it very inexpensively, but seem to add something else to it. Maybe why the price is so low?

I settled on a company located in Iowa where Diamond V is located, primarly because they were very helpful when I called to ask "my list of questions" and were reasonably priced. As it turns out, I've placed 3 orders with them now and haven't been sick in the past 8 months. I just had some routine blood work done and the doctor remarked that my panel was the best he's ever seen it and to "keep doing what I'm doing". My allergies have also improved greatly.

I called the company in Iowa who sold me the EpiCor (ProActive Health Products) and ordered it for my whole family. they have a great price on their website at www.4greathealth.com for a family pack. This way I can send it off to my mother who is in assisted living and everyone else living in my house can manage their own supply.

Interestingly enough, I'm talking with my HR department about using this in our corporate wellness program. I'll keep you posted!

[niner]

I read all of the posts and was still a bit nervous about eating animal feed, so I called Diamond V. Nice folks! Indeed, they did not recommend the XPC product for human consumption, so I asked about alternatives. I got a list of suppliers they recommended and checked each one out. You have to be careful....there are a few companies who sell it very inexpensively, but seem to add something else to it. Maybe why the price is so low?

Do those companies that sell it for less actually say they add something to it? I've been buying it for 9.99 a bottle (30 caps), and they say it's just "EpiCor". It's an established company with a large product line. (Swanson) Did the Diamond V people warn you about some suppliers? Or perhaps did one of the more expensive suppliers say something? (That would obviously be suspect, if it were the case) I'm just curious to know If I'm getting ripped off. It's fundamentally a cheap product to manufacture. All they have to do is make the animal food with more attention to cleanliness. It's not like there are super expensive chemicals involved.

[delo3]

Of course they are not going to recommend the animal version for human consumption. They manufacture Epicor under their Embria Health trademark. And I am certain they make much higher margins on the Epicor. It would be in their worst interest to promote or otherwise suggest that the animal version could be taken in the same fashion. The USDA strictly enforces animal feed quality and ingredients. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that the USDA regulations for animal feed are more stringent than FDA regulations for the human version (Epicor). There's not much regulation when it comes to "natural" supplements.

I have taken Diamond V XPC (animal version) for over six months now without any negatives...I'll continue to pay pennies for it over Epicor any day.

I read all of the posts and was still a bit nervous about eating animal feed, so I called Diamond V. Nice folks! Indeed, they did not recommend the XPC product for human consumption, so I asked about alternatives. I got a list of suppliers they recommended and checked each one out. You have to be careful....there are a few companies who sell it very inexpensively, but seem to add something else to it. Maybe why the price is so low?

I settled on a company located in Iowa where Diamond V is located, primarly because they were very helpful when I called to ask "my list of questions" and were reasonably priced. As it turns out, I've placed 3 orders with them now and haven't been sick in the past 8 months. I just had some routine blood work done and the doctor remarked that my panel was the best he's ever seen it and to "keep doing what I'm doing". My allergies have also improved greatly.

I called the company in Iowa who sold me the EpiCor (ProActive Health Products) and ordered it for my whole family. they have a great price on their website at www.4greathealth.com for a family pack. This way I can send it off to my mother who is in assisted living and everyone else living in my house can manage their own supply.

Interestingly enough, I'm talking with my HR department about using this in our corporate wellness program. I'll keep you posted!

[edward]

After I went through my human version I ordered 5 lbs of the animal stuff from Ebay. I have no qualms with consuming a product made for animals I agree that the restrictions on labeled packaged animal food are just as strict if not stricter than those regulating supplements. I am consuming the amount recommended for our hoofed friends cows, horses etc. 14 grams total per day. 7 grams am and 7 grams pm. I agree with the arguments made previously such as ranchers want to maximize profits and therefore will feed the minimum of such supplements so I figure that I am well within a safe dose. Furthermore the animal version has a lot of "roughage" in it that dilutes the actives. I would love to know how concentrated the human version is though.

edit: Furthermore I view this stuff more as food than a supplement with concentrated chemical actives. As an aside, I like the "smell" of the stuff, throw it in with oatmeal and it actually tastes pretty good .... I'll let you guys know if I start growing hooves, a tail and a shaggy mane...

Edited by edward, 15 February 2008 - 10:42 PM.

[senseix]

After I went through my human version I ordered 5 lbs of the animal stuff from Ebay. I have no qualms with consuming a product made for animals I agree that the restrictions on labeled packaged animal food are just as strict if not stricter than those regulating supplements. I am consuming the amount recommended for our hoofed friends cows, horses etc. 14 grams total per day. 7 grams am and 7 grams pm. I agree with the arguments made previously such as ranchers want to maximize profits and therefore will feed the minimum of such supplements so I figure that I am well within a safe dose. Furthermore the animal version has a lot of "roughage" in it that dilutes the actives. I would love to know how concentrated the human version is though.

edit: Furthermore I view this stuff more as food than a supplement with concentrated chemical actives. As an aside, I like the "smell" of the stuff, throw it in with oatmeal and it actually tastes pretty good .... I'll let you guys know if I start growing hooves, a tail and a shaggy mane...

LOL love that post man, i have to agree tho i've been taking it for several months now and i love the way i sleep and feel btw i did purchase epicor the 500mg type that says take 1 per day. I didn't feel the same results. I take 7grams per day of Diamond V XPC, and enjoy the taste with my oatmeal or chicken or just about anything really.

Edited by senseix, 16 February 2008 - 12:43 AM.

[satori]

Diamond V XPC

Anybody find a good source for this. Don't really want to buy a 50 lb bag, but am leary of buying from someone unknown on Ebay. Any references would be appreciated. Thanks.

(edited by Matthias: threads 21003 & 17713 merged)

Edited by Matthias, 08 November 2008 - 11:41 AM.

[krillin]

Anybody find a good source for this. Don't really want to buy a 50 lb bag, but am leary of buying from someone unknown on Ebay. Any references would be appreciated. Thanks.

You could try these guys. I might when my Epicor runs out.

[malbecman]

Along these lines, here is the first double blind study I have seen of Epicor on Pubmed. Just came out and it looks promising:

Urol Nurs. 2008 Feb;28(1):50-5. Effects of a modified yeast supplement on cold/flu symptoms.
Moyad MA, Robinson LE, Zawada ET Jr, Kittelsrud JM, Chen DG, Reeves SG, Weaver SE.
Preventive and Alternative Medicine, University of Michigan Medical Center, Department of Urology Ann Arbor, MI, USA.

A yeast-based product (EpiCor, a dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentate) was compared to placebo to determine effects on the incidence and duration of cold and flu-like symptoms in healthy subjects recently vaccinated for seasonal influenza. In a 12-week, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, 116 participants received daily supplementation with 500 mg of EpiCor or placebo for 12 weeks. Data collected included periodic in-clinic examinations and serologic evaluations at baseline, 6- and 12-weeks. Subjects also utilized a standardized self-report symptom diary during the study. Participants receiving the yeast-based product had significantly fewer symptoms and significantly shorter duration of symptoms when compared with subjects taking a placebo.

PMID: 18335698

Anybody find a good source for this. Don't really want to buy a 50 lb bag, but am leary of buying from someone unknown on Ebay. Any references would be appreciated. Thanks.

You could try these guys. I might when my Epicor runs out.

[inawe]

Along these lines, here is the first double blind study I have seen of Epicor on Pubmed. Just came out and it looks promising:

Urol Nurs. 2008 Feb;28(1):50-5. Effects of a modified yeast supplement on cold/flu symptoms.
Moyad MA, Robinson LE, Zawada ET Jr, Kittelsrud JM, Chen DG, Reeves SG, Weaver SE.
Preventive and Alternative Medicine, University of Michigan Medical Center, Department of Urology Ann Arbor, MI, USA.

Very interesting. I wonder what's the relation with urology.
Also, the first author states in another paper (18335702):
"Yeast-based technology is also being used as a molecular mechanistic model of caloric restriction (CR) with the goal of improving the human life span. The current and potential impact of yeast-based technology in medicine is encouraging and should receive more attention, but the recent preliminary positive results of CR in humans may be in part due to what has been already learned from brewer's yeast."

Is he refering to Sinclair experiments with yeast or something else?
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