248 replies to this topic

[Shepard]

Took my first dose tonight at ~2.5mg. I'll update in a few days.

[FunkOdyssey]

I've never seen any mention of an effect on sex hormones reported -- then again, its probably rare for anyone to run before / after hormonal panels. I invite one brave soul to step up and do it for science. My money is on no effect or an insignificantly small effect.

Really? Opioid receptors are one of the two main feedback systems regulating androgens...

Yes really, there may be some effect, especially something transient in the beginning, but I doubt it is anything significant / long-term because ALOT of people have used this therapy and no effect on sex hormones is reported. There are a few published studies on LDN now, with no effect on sex hormones reported in those either (not that they were specifically looking for this but if something was really out of wack I think the authors would have noted it).

I'll test this when I go back on it if many people are interested, maybe not a full endocrine panel but I should be able to pull off a before/after total + free testosterone.

[StrangeAeons]

If this increases opioid receptor sensitivity I would have to imagine that it would show an appreciable affect for anhedonia and other psych conditions, yes? I'm seriously considering getting in on this.

EDIT: As a side, wouldn't this thread more accurately belong to the deserted Pharmacology subforum of the Supplement section?

Edited by PetaKiaRose, 21 December 2008 - 05:54 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

If this increases opioid receptor sensitivity I would have to imagine that it would show an appreciable affect for anhedonia and other psych conditions, yes? I'm seriously considering getting in on this.

EDIT: As a side, wouldn't this thread more accurately belong to the deserted Pharmacology subforum of the Supplement section?

Yes, and yes.

[StrangeAeons]

Going to an Orthomolecular psychiatrist in a couple of weeks, and I'll ask him about getting a prescription; anhednonia has been a pretty big piece of the puzzle for me for a long time, and it makes life pretty sucky. I'm in Miami Beach right now, hoping to have a nice vacation; but historically no matter where I go the sensations of life seem blunted. I kind of wonder if this becomes the new selegiline (selegiline didn't do much for me besides tension headaches). If I start taking it I'll keep you guys posted.

[edward]

Shepard, how is the LDN going, anything to report?

[Shepard]

I have actually had a semi-unfavorable reaction to it. For 60-90 minutes after taking it, breathing and swallowing seem to become a little labored. I do have some pretty bad allergies if they ever flare up, but I haven't had any issues for a while. It wouldn't have surprised me if it didn't happen so soon after dosing.

That said, I do like the stuff. Libido is still going strong, but in a nice calm way that doesn't overly distract me. Mood is always pretty good, but my patience with certain people seems to be improved. We'll see. I'm going to dose it four days on, three/four days off at the moment.

[FunkOdyssey]

That's interesting shep, good feedback. I wonder if a little quercetin might suppress whatever allergic sensitivity you are having.

No sleep problems or vivid dreams?

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 22 December 2008 - 08:15 PM.

[Shepard]

I wonder if a little quercetin might suppress whatever allergic sensitivity you are having.

Thanks for the suggestion. I probably will look into it if the problem persists.

No sleep problems or vivid dreams?

Actually, no. It may just be the stress-free time between semesters, but I've had very deep sleep with little dreaming (at least none that I recall). I have had one unusually elaborate one, but nothing exceptionally out of the ordinary.

[StrangeAeons]

One concern I have come up with while researching low dose naltrexone. Hormone levels including prolactin.

If one increases circulating endorphins (or gives someone an opiate for that matter) prolactin levels increase or the ability of dopamine to keep prolactin levels under control is blunted (depending on which study you read).

So except for the few hours the low dose naltrexone is actually antagonizing endogenous opiods, ones endorphin levels will be elevated beyond the normal range and thus prolactin will probably increase.

LH will probably increase as well leading to an increase in other hormones, test, estrogen etc.

The whole picture could be bad for a Male in the long run. Short run probably a net increase in libido as people taking it have seen but long term could be yucky.

This is especially interesting because I have anhedonia and my prolactin is (idiosyncratically/psychogenically) elevated. LDN seems to increase tolerance to stress (anecdotally we have Shepard's increased patience with people, but there are also studies in rats). There is an established positive correlation between stress and prolactin activity; so even if the pathway is unknown, there's reason to believe that LDN may decrease prolactin. At the very least, even if prolactin is directly increased via one pathway, the stress-tolerance effect may offset it. Likewise the association between opioid and dopamine pathways may also result in a dopamine-mediated prolactin antagonism. In this regard I would have to imagine that LDN and dopaminergics, most especially selegiline, would yield a synergistic effect in terms of psychological benefits.
Shepard, are you currently on selegiline, or are you considering stacking selegiline and LDN?
EDIT: another issue with LDN and prolactin; melatonin seems to directly increase prolactin, so the fact that people are waking up when first adjusting to the dose (i.e. when opioid activity has yet to be upregulated?) is interesting, if perhaps inconclusive.

Edited by PetaKiaRose, 23 December 2008 - 08:03 PM.

[Shepard]

Shepard, are you currently on selegiline, or are you considering stacking selegiline and LDN?

I am not. I do have some at my disposal, though.

[StrangeAeons]

It might be worth exploring once you've spent a long enough time exploring the effects of LDN; obviously it would be a bad idea to go about confounding your experiences prematurely; on the other hand, it would probably establish very little about its effects on me as I am a notoriously refractory "non-responder", and from what I can derive from my symptoms the systems these drugs affect are probably very different for me. I do appreciate your investigating the regimen in the name of science.

[edward]

Received my Naltrexone today (shipping was pretty quick). Mixed up a batch: one 50 mg tablet, 50 ml of water... dissolved fairly well a bit cloudy looks more like a suspension. Transferred to a 60 ml dropper bottle with a convenient 1 ml marked dropper.

Will take my first dose tonight of roughly 3 mg and report. Everything else in my supplement/pharmaceutical regimen is constant so I should get a pretty good idea of how it affects me.


BTW Shepard, anything to report?

[Shepard]

I've been off it for a little while longer than I expected after my first four-day cycle due to a wedding I was in and the festivities surrounding it and Christmas. I've only got a couple nights of rest before New Year's and a trip to Vegas, so it will probably be a little bit into January before I start on it again.

[youandme]

Guys,

I took LDN 4.5mg for 8 months..the idea was to reduce/halt Autoimmune Disease Progression..(I have a few).

However after 8 months ..I had progressed in disease symptoms.
Also I found I was increasingly not with it mentally.

What do I mean ..its difficult to describe...however I remember being overly patient with everyone and everything...this also transcribed into accepting things that I normally would not...funny thing was I remember quite clearly how clear everything seemed in the world..everything had its place/order..

its kinda like being on anti-depressants..without the zonked out feeling.

I guess what I'm trying to say is..for me they had major psychological/personality changes...

I'm usually impulsive, quick to react, ready to fire.

Yet on LDN 4.5mg I was a patient laid back agreeable person.

I reckon that's quite a big change...I realised how much when I stopped taking it...now I feel back to my oldself...Im in charge again.

This is not meant to be a neg response/post rather just sharing my experiences.

Libido...was an initial boost..then settled.

I'm undecided if it had major positives or not..in fact I debate weekly if not to give it another go..

I read some study (wish I could find it now) that it could be used to help modulate moods and make the people more agreeable....perhaps its effect is not unlike 'Ritalin'

Im probably way off.

Anyways happy New Year

[StrangeAeons]

youandme:
I'm curious to know, what type of autoimmune diseases do you have? I'm wondering if this might have modulated your psychological response to the drug at all, especially if your disease pertains to the CNS.
This is also intriguing because I have trouble with impulse control often; as long as I can remember I found myself unable to keep from interrupting conversations inappropriately, or talking out of line, trying to show off when it wasn't my place, etc. I would imagine if this is a consistent effect of the drug I could see its use in impulse control, and similarly ADHD; the latter would be an interesting discovery regarding the role of endorphins in attention.

Just to drag this up, I checked out the low dose naltrexone web site and found this theory stipulated:

There exists a common notion that the immune system in a person with an autoimmune disorder is too strong and, in its exuberance, targets a body tissue for attack. Rather, the evidence is more consistent with autoimmunity resulting from immunodeficiency.

Though they explain that this is due to a loss of "memory" of the immune system (for the MHC/HLC) it sounds like this has the potential to be taken out of context as fuel for the Trevor Marshall anti-D movement. Does anybody know about their camp's feeling on the stuff?

[youandme]

PetaKiaRose

Well Ive got at a few things going on so to speak...Sjogrens type symptoms, Parietal Cell Antobodies, Hashimoto's, Arthritis (AS & HLA-B27+)
and also unexplained Hepatitis of unknown etiology.(personally I think it is Seronegative -Primary Biliary Cirrhosis)

I also have Neuropathies, twitching, spams, numbness, pain allover..starting to lose fine motor in right hand (cramps on release of objects)...

So perhaps CNS but also perhaps Peripheral issues.

Not sure what Marshall thinks about LDN..but I would put money on him saying its rubbish

Im going to do a post/thread on Auto-immunity...its such a huge topic on its own.

youandme:
I'm curious to know, what type of autoimmune diseases do you have? I'm wondering if this might have modulated your psychological response to the drug at all, especially if your disease pertains to the CNS.
This is also intriguing because I have trouble with impulse control often; as long as I can remember I found myself unable to keep from interrupting conversations inappropriately, or talking out of line, trying to show off when it wasn't my place, etc. I would imagine if this is a consistent effect of the drug I could see its use in impulse control, and similarly ADHD; the latter would be an interesting discovery regarding the role of endorphins in attention.

Just to drag this up, I checked out the low dose naltrexone web site and found this theory stipulated:

There exists a common notion that the immune system in a person with an autoimmune disorder is too strong and, in its exuberance, targets a body tissue for attack. Rather, the evidence is more consistent with autoimmunity resulting from immunodeficiency.

Though they explain that this is due to a loss of "memory" of the immune system (for the MHC/HLC) it sounds like this has the potential to be taken out of context as fuel for the Trevor Marshall anti-D movement. Does anybody know about their camp's feeling on the stuff?

[unbreakable]

I took 100mg Naltrexone per day for about 6 months to reduce alcohol cravings. I did not have any side effects and it helped, but now I take high dose baclofen as it can eliminate craving and not just reduce it. I never took low dose naltrexone, but I really doubt it will give somone any side effects at all.

[youandme]

I took 100mg Naltrexone per day for about 6 months to reduce alcohol cravings. I did not have any side effects and it helped, but now I take high dose baclofen as it can eliminate craving and not just reduce it. I never took low dose naltrexone, but I really doubt it will give somone any side effects at all.

I wouldnt call them side effects..more effects..definitely has effect.
The dosage to help reduce Alcohol Cravings is 20x higher and has an opposite effect to a low dose. High dose if you like takes the fun away...low dose gives you endorphins..or the feel good....

Initial Libido increase was a bit of a shock but does go...also had some crazy realistic dreams in colour....I rememeber I was washing a crocodile in the sink ! I didnt want that one to end...lol

Some dont like the dreams, some get scared...they did not bother me as I always found them interesting.
Another thing is the dreams could go on and on (longevity) perhaps this means a better deeper sleep...not sure

Edited by youandme, 02 January 2009 - 12:13 AM.

[edward]

Have been taking this stuff for a week. Very interesting. Definite mood boost like a mild antidepressant. I have had a lot more patience with situations and have gotten through projects that I was previously putting off. Over all a good feeling. There has been a mild increase in allergies which in me manifest themselves as puffy eyes and stuffy nose. I think this is subsiding though. Sex drive is definitely boosted. Increase in facial acne (havent had acne for years other than during my brief TRT experience). Other than that no weird hormonal side effects.

Sleep is still a little weird. I am waking up a lot earlier and WOW just like youandme said the dreams are intense, even laying down to take a nap puts me in a technicolor dreamland. It is not unpleasant but it makes me wonder if I am getting enough non rem sleep.

I gave blood the other day and had a mild vasovagal response (almost passed out) and felt very unwell the rest of the day. This never happens to me when I give blood so perhaps it was the LDN or maybe I was simply a little dehydrated.

[jjjooonnn]

Were you taking melatonin/tryptophan/5-HTP/etc. along with the naltrexone when you had sleeping issues?

Were there any other effects other than the libido increase?

I have tried Melatonin and 5-htp in the past, and neither helped me sleep, though Melatonin did for a few weeks. What does helpe me sleep is a good dose of Diamond V so thats what i use mainly and so far works well. I was taking that along with the LDN. Now if i take the LDN in the evening, and didn't sleep well, i did have good energy if i was able to get a decent nights sleep, so i could feel an energy surge and i could feel that my mood was more positive which i enjoyed. If i took it in the am, i just didn't feel none of that.

The alcohol could definitely contribute to the mid-night awakenings. When you go to bed after consuming a significant amount of alcohol (3+ drinks), your sleep quality deteriorates, particularly in the later half of the night after the alcohol has worn off. There is some rebound stimulation that makes sleep more shallow and makes you more likely to awaken. You should try cutting out the alcohol for a few days and see how your sleep improves.

The first month or so, i didn't drink at all, but i have found for me, that a few glasses of wine for instance can help me sleep in terms of falling to sleep and having a deeper sleep, so i went back to having a few drinks in the evening, and that didn't help with the LDN so i ended up going to the morning routine like you suggested and then eventually stopped.

What i liked about LDN when taken at night is, i could feel a surge of energy during the day that was nice, and my sex drive was insane so i wonder if someone has a low drive if this could help with that? My drive i would say is average without LDN.

I'm a 25yr old male diag with RRMS.
I've currently been taking LDN for MS approximately 4months; energy level's gone up no doubt. I've found no rise in sex drive (aside from the occasional morning surprise) and I am very active in that respect.
The question I've been pondering for quite sometime now is... Would sex have the same effects as external opiate's (Alcohol, Morphine, etc) on my treatment for MS with LDN!?
Any response would be appreciated

[senseix]

Have been taking this stuff for a week. Very interesting. Definite mood boost like a mild antidepressant. I have had a lot more patience with situations and have gotten through projects that I was previously putting off. Over all a good feeling. There has been a mild increase in allergies which in me manifest themselves as puffy eyes and stuffy nose. I think this is subsiding though. Sex drive is definitely boosted. Increase in facial acne (havent had acne for years other than during my brief TRT experience). Other than that no weird hormonal side effects.

Sleep is still a little weird. I am waking up a lot earlier and WOW just like youandme said the dreams are intense, even laying down to take a nap puts me in a technicolor dreamland. It is not unpleasant but it makes me wonder if I am getting enough non rem sleep.

I gave blood the other day and had a mild vasovagal response (almost passed out) and felt very unwell the rest of the day. This never happens to me when I give blood so perhaps it was the LDN or maybe I was simply a little dehydrated.

That pretty much sums up my experience. The dreams were very strong, i didn't mind though, i like goofy dreams haha.

[StrangeAeons]

The question I've been pondering for quite sometime now is... Would sex have the same effects as external opiate's (Alcohol, Morphine, etc) on my treatment for MS with LDN!?
Any response would be appreciated

Sex is far more biologically complicated than opiates, and it's effects on the brain are indeed more powerful if somewhat more brief. It should also be noted that alcohol is by no means an opiate, its effects on the brain are primarily mediated through GABA. This is much more similar to barbiturates (i.e. phenobarbitol) or beznodiazepenes (i.e. valium/diazepam). Sex involves an activation of the parasympathetic nervous system for arousal, and then a sudden sympathetic response on orgasm. Likewise arousal is largely a process of the dopamine pathways of the brain (through which opioid receptors are mediated), but upon orgasm there is a surge of prolactin-- a neurotransmitter/hormone that is antagonistic to dopamine. Orgasm also causes powerful muscle contractions and the release of oxytocin, a hormone with powerful effects on emotion. Sex is not really analogous to any drug, it is a highly potent biological and neurological process which is generally speaking beneficial to the brain (and to the prostate, if you're a man).
Since prolactin is immunogenic, I would imagine that the net effect of sex would be positive for your MS, though you would probably be better off asking a neuroendorcrinologist or rheumatologist about this.

[VespeneGas]

Starting 1.5 mg/night today, so it'll be a little while before I can make much of a report. Can any of the regular users comment on concentration/brain fog? Usually after exercise or getting hurt, my mind feels unusually clear which I imagine is an endorphin mediated process.

[kismet]

I'm a 25yr old male diag with RRMS.
I've currently been taking LDN for MS approximately 4months; energy level's gone up no doubt. I've found no rise in sex drive (aside from the occasional morning surprise) and I am very active in that respect.

Please do report back if you can! I need to help a family member with RR-MS and in fact I'm considering LDN (and some other treatments).

[FunkOdyssey]

I hope the other treatments you are considering are antibiotics kismet. Please find me on the ustream chat, I have ALOT of information on this.

[kismet]

I hope the other treatments you are considering are antibiotics kismet. Please find me on the ustream chat, I have ALOT of information on this.

Yes, doxy- or minocycline struck me as a great idea additionally to LDN. I'll contact you on the ustream in the coming days.

[youandme]

Ive restarted LDN...found that 4.5mg for me was too much..got a little agitated.
somewhere between 3.5-4mg seems my best dose so far.

I have more energy...I can do more...not sure it is helping stop the actual AI diseases
I started taking LDN again after spasms, twitches and weakness in my right arm/hand.

Spasms have gone for now..twitches still continue.
Other AI symptoms have gotten a little worse...

Currently though Id rather take it than not...well what else can we take ?!

A lot of people have at least some success with LDN for Neuro symptoms..

Its not a fix all though...

Its easy to try..and cheap ! and non addictive !

[youandme]

Ive just had my total testosterone checked

Its come back high after 1 month on 3-3.5mg LDN

Testosterone 30 nmol/L (range is 9.9-27.8 nmol/L)

not a huge amount over range..however Im not taking anything other than LDN that could make this elevate..this is rather high for a 43 yr old.

On the positive side my Thyroid Antibodies have dropped from
900 to 290...a huge drop..

Also my Liver Function Test 'GGT' dropped from
130 -> 76 ...getting closer to normal.

25 OH D is 100 nmol/L (range 60-110 nmol/L) so pretty OK no need to supp...

so to wrap up LDN appears to be doing good..however some bad as well...previous to this I had mid-range normal levels.

Im still experimenting with dose..and will get it all checked again in month.

[kismet]

Ive just had my total testosterone checked

Its come back high after 1 month on 3-3.5mg LDN

Testosterone 30 nmol/L (range is 9.9-27.8 nmol/L)

Please do me a favour and give us the range in ng/ml and/or a conversion factor if available. I guess your T is at 8.6ng/ml, which indeed seems pretty good at that age.

not a huge amount over range..however Im not taking anything other than LDN that could make this elevate..this is rather high for a 43 yr old.

Do you know what your levels looked like before?

25 OH D is 100 nmol/L (range 60-110 nmol/L) so pretty OK no need to supp...

25OHD at 40ng/ml is pretty good (45ng may be even slightly better), how much sun exposure do you get? Do you supplement vitamin D?

Edited by kismet, 19 February 2009 - 01:08 PM.