248 replies to this topic

[stephen_b]

What does it matter if it affects sociability as long as you get 'that feeling' and are thus fulfilled?

I suppose it comes down to what you value for yourself. Longevity and a stable social network are associated, and my life is enhanced by social interaction.

Edited by stephen_b, 10 August 2009 - 10:39 PM.

[stephen_b]

More fuel for the fire:

Med Hypotheses. 2008 Nov 26. [Epub ahead of print]

Low-dose naltrexone for disease prevention and quality of life.
Brown N, Panksepp J.

Department of Humanities and Social Sciences, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach, FL 32114, United States.

The use of low-dose naltrexone (LDN) for the treatment and prophylaxis of various bodily disorders is discussed. Accumulating evidence suggests that LDN can promote health supporting immune-modulation which may reduce various oncogenic and inflammatory autoimmune processes. Since LDN can upregulate endogenous opioid activity, it may also have a role in promoting stress resilience, exercise, social bonding, and emotional well-being, as well as amelioration of psychiatric problems such a autism and depression. It is proposed that LDN can be used effectively as a buffer for a large variety of bodily and mental ailments through its ability to beneficially modulate both the immune system and the brain neurochemistries that regulate positive affect.

PMID: 19041189

The full text of the paper is available now.

StephenB

[TheFountain]

What does it matter if it affects sociability as long as you get 'that feeling' and are thus fulfilled?

I suppose it comes down to what you value for yourself. Longevity and a stable social network are associated, and my life is enhanced by social interaction.

The question is are you choosing social interaction or are you relying on it as a catalyst to feel better? I think far too few people choose it and are programmed to choose it at a young age thus they know no other way. It is very important to choose things and to base ones activities on conscious directed choices not because they feel some notion implanted into their heads that they have to interact with other people. And what about those people who are sickened by social interaction because they think the majority of people are weak minded assholes? Are these people sick?

[stephen_b]

It is very important to choose things and to base ones activities on conscious directed choices not because they feel some notion implanted into their heads that they have to interact with other people. And what about those people who are sickened by social interaction because they think the majority of people are weak minded assholes? Are these people sick?

Quite possibly; it's certainly very atypical, and most people find fulfillment when engaged with others. Living alone with an endorphin IV for company is not my idea of a great life. Though the libertarian in me wouldn't try to stop them.

And this is getting way off topic.

[StrangeAeons]

This isn't worth going on a very long discourse, but I'll explain it simply:
Man is a social animal. We don't survive otherwise. We may get to a point where technology can supplant that necessity, and what we're dealing with here are some of the biological roots of this behavior. Talking about a positive-reinforcement loop and free will at the same time is silly. As an individual, you make choices. As a species, we are compelled to certain behaviors via feedback loops, positive and negative.
Disassembling that and condemning humanity as a whole, if you're willing to really live what other people only think from time to time, is in fact regarded as distinctly diagnostic of a personality disorder. If you can remain non-disruptive to society, though, you can avoid that particular label. What that "makes" you is in the eye of the beholder.

That aside we are very far off topic. I'm getting more wary of the idea of naltrexone in the absence of selective ligands because of the activity at the k receptor. Given the paucity of treatment options for people with autoimmune disorders (given the current drugs are either terrible immune-suppressing or inevitably lead to a host of very adverse effects) it's an intriguing last ditch effort. My fascination with LDN as a treatment for anhedonia, though, is much dampened.

[TheFountain]

This isn't worth going on a very long discourse, but I'll explain it simply:
Man is a social animal. We don't survive otherwise. We may get to a point where technology can supplant that necessity, and what we're dealing with here are some of the biological roots of this behavior. Talking about a positive-reinforcement loop and free will at the same time is silly. As an individual, you make choices. As a species, we are compelled to certain behaviors via feedback loops, positive and negative.
Disassembling that and condemning humanity as a whole, if you're willing to really live what other people only think from time to time, is in fact regarded as distinctly diagnostic of a personality disorder. If you can remain non-disruptive to society, though, you can avoid that particular label. What that "makes" you is in the eye of the beholder.

That aside we are very far off topic. I'm getting more wary of the idea of naltrexone in the absence of selective ligands because of the activity at the k receptor. Given the paucity of treatment options for people with autoimmune disorders (given the current drugs are either terrible immune-suppressing or inevitably lead to a host of very adverse effects) it's an intriguing last ditch effort. My fascination with LDN as a treatment for anhedonia, though, is much dampened.

meh I don't think it's as simple as 'man is a social animal'. I think there is a lot more complexity going on than just this one shade of truth. I think SOME men are social animals, some are anti-social beings. But we have a tendency to focus on the aspect of humanity which is concerned with what is 'out there'. I call it programming by outside forces. And besides I have heard the 'man is a social animal' argument a thousand and one times. It is nothing new, nor unique or interesting.

I am more interested in views which challenge that one because I know that one over-simplifies matters. I think Carl Jung proved that long before I was born. Thank goodness he wrote his quite anti-social thoughts, as well as the hundreds of other anti-social philosophers in the world who wrote theirs. Have you ever considered the possibility that 'man is a social animal' is something you heard somewhere, thus are repeating?

Edited by TheFountain, 13 August 2009 - 08:13 AM.

[TheFountain]

Furthermore...

[StrangeAeons]

I'm very aware it's an old argument. I was specifically applying it to the biological realities that propogated our species. You're not really offering me any philosophical revelations in telling me that people can be solitary too. I'm just saying that it's not a bad thing that people are social, and seeing it as "brainwashing" applies a certain cabalistic/conspiracy theory/paranoid angle to something which is nothing more than normal human behavior. There may be other modes of existence, but this one is the default.

That in mind, please pay heed to the fact that this thread is about an opioid antagonist. You took a rather distant tangent and spun it out into this philosophical discussion. I'd be glad to talk about this in more detail in a seperate thread.

[youandme]

Just a thanks for sharing your knowledge and thoughts about the actions of LDN.

My interest is of course Autoimmunity and that mu opioid receptor...however at the same time finding out what else this drug acts on helps with the bigger picture.

Ive found LDN to be more than interesting...many say that it causes few effects..however my own experience makes me feel it is acting on several levels.

many many people are taking LDN for Autoimmunity, however the forums are full of non responders as well as responders only in the short term...many around the 6 week mark like myself.

From what I understand full doses of naltrexone are beneficial in depersonalization disorder, which is definitely a disorder that has the potential for being confounded with autism. Perhaps the upregulation/desensitization of these receptors is is actually deleterious, and the dose should be escalated to maintain a more complete opioid blockade? It would fly in the face of the current theory, but admittedly that theory isn't all that well established. The difficulty here lies in the variety of receptor subtypes; mu opioid receptors seem to mediate hedonic tone and are supposedly immunomodulatory; whereas k opioid receptors seem implicated in some sort of vague, adverse pyschiatric phenomenon. Selective ligands would be nice.

Edited by youandme, 15 August 2009 - 12:05 AM.

[stephen_b]

many many people are taking LDN for Autoimmunity, however the forums are full of non responders as well as responders only in the short term...many around the 6 week mark like myself.

Do you think that the hypothesis that candida is involved in non-responders holds water?

There are a number of interesting podcasts here. I've listened to the Jul 21,2009 episode with Dr. Phil Boyle from The Galway Clinic in Ireland (the host's brother). He's been using it in his practice and shares some case histories. Wow, I wish I could find a doctor like that.

StephenB

[youandme]

Thanks for sharing StephenB

There is a lot of information about LDN coming from ..how should I say...the edge of mainstream medicine.

Not a bad thing in itself...however Ive read a lot of the information being pushed out re LDN, Candida, and Im a bit worried that it does not hold water...the arguments that LDN is pushing the Immune system from T2 to T1 ...from Hyperimmunity to more balanced...sounds like fiction.

The immune system leaning more to T1 is thought of as Hyperimmune as far as Autoimmunity is concerned...so these arguments re what LDN does to the Immune System seem confusing.

Im not sure Ive got any Candida...I did the spit test, had several tests, all negative.
Yet we are told that 80% of people have Candida.

The Candida symptom list that is pushed out on the LDN forums looks like it covers many many potential disease symptoms.

My thoughts are unless Candida infection is quite bad in which case it would be more obvious then Candida is probably less a factor..my 2 cents

I think the problem is we dont know all there is to know about how LDN acts and of course, we dont know all that needs to be known on how the Immune System works to make a fully informed judgement....more likely the answers to non responders is in the mix.

Im yet to hear the podcasts but will...cheers

many many people are taking LDN for Autoimmunity, however the forums are full of non responders as well as responders only in the short term...many around the 6 week mark like myself.

Do you think that the hypothesis that candida is involved in non-responders holds water?

There are a number of interesting podcasts here. I've listened to the Jul 21,2009 episode with Dr. Phil Boyle from The Galway Clinic in Ireland (the host's brother). He's been using it in his practice and shares some case histories. Wow, I wish I could find a doctor like that.

StephenB

[kismet]

many many people are taking LDN for Autoimmunity, however the forums are full of non responders as well as responders only in the short term...many around the 6 week mark like myself.

The sceptic in me says: sounds exactly like you'd expect a placebo to act. On a similar note, the responses on MS boards are definitely much less enthusiastic when compared to really efficacious stuff (e.g. the standard of care or tetracyclines). Am I right in assuming there is no clinical evidence available? I hope people are not jumping the gun for no obvious reason.

Edited by kismet, 16 August 2009 - 06:02 PM.

[stephen_b]

Am I right in assuming there is no clinical evidence available?

No. Put "(low dose naltrexone)" as a search term in pub med.

[youandme]

Ive listened to a lot of the podcasts.

A couple of things I got of listening to them.

One of the Research Doctors says that blocking Opiod receptors causes cell growth...a bit vague but nonetheless important if not just for people with cancers taking LDN....the rational is that taking LDN often or take to much and you are continually blocking the opiod receptors and encouraging cell growth...bad for cancer..but it was also eluded bad for other diseases.

The key to the treatment is the cycle block, create more endorphins and then release them.

The only new information I heard regarding LDN stopping to work..was suggested that LDN is not being metabolised in time..in other words a Liver Disease could cause the slowing of the processing of LDN..allowing a build up of LDN and a time of overblocking to occur..this issue can cause an exacerbation of disease symptoms.

If this is correct then it maybe that my Liver is struggling to clear/process LDN in time for the next tablet..it could explain why after 6 weeks symptoms get worse...and makes me think if I try it again..I will cycle perhaps a day on LDN/ then a day off... and see how we go.

Several of the podcaster guests mentioned the 'Runners High' experienced by takers of LDN..I certainly felt this..you feel good but you dont know why..and your still sick but you dont notice it so much.

Perhaps this is the key to LDN...its a feel good...or a feel better.

It was said that diseases cause a depletion of Endorphins...yet no one is measuring them in people to see if that is true...there is a lot of speculation..
Also there is some disagreement as to when the LDN should be taken..some say night only.

So in summary whats still missing ...despite listening to the people....I still do not know how LDN fights disease other than it taking your mind of the issue with the endorphin better feelings it produces.

When Ive tried it..I intially found my skin became oily...(I have usually very dry skin due to Autoimmune Disease) I felt I could run not walk..I felt confident ..a feeling of wellbeing without being well.

It was more than placebo.

So still again how it helps Autoimmune diseases or if it does.. I still do not understand enough about it.

Edited by youandme, 17 August 2009 - 05:51 AM.

[JLL]

So where do you get naltrexone from?

[youandme]

So where do you get naltrexone from?

Well usually Naltrexone is prescribed..either for some kind of addiction or also now compounded ie into a Low Dose Nalrexone as a try n see if it helps for lots of diseases.

Other ways of obtaining it..Ive got no idea !

[stephen_b]

You can buy it here.

I do hope people have seen this list of clinical trials for LDN.

[JLL]

You can buy it here.

I do hope people have seen this list of clinical trials for LDN.

That's quite a price... plus, no shipping to EU. ADC seems to have it too, though you'd have to cut the pills somehow.

[Logan]

You can buy it here.

I do hope people have seen this list of clinical trials for LDN.

That's quite a price... plus, no shipping to EU. ADC seems to have it too, though you'd have to cut the pills somehow.

They are capsules. 4.5 mg is a low dose. If you wanted to go lower you would have to pour out half and mix it in water or juice. Too bad they don't sell a scored tablet. I'm sure there is a reason for this.

[youandme]

not sure if its been thought of and discussed already..apologies if so...but I wonder if the body can have too many endorphins from LDN.

Has the body a limit..how much endorphin rush it can handle....if so what could happen if you go over that ?

No one is measuring Endorphin levels...
Is anyone aware of any research that could answer these questions.

[TheFountain]

Has anyone had any success cutting up the pills from allldaychemist and effectively using them as LDN? Any other cheap sources?

[TheFountain]

You can buy it here.

I do hope people have seen this list of clinical trials for LDN.

That's quite a price... plus, no shipping to EU. ADC seems to have it too, though you'd have to cut the pills somehow.

Do you think it would be difficult to make them 1/10th their original size? What would you use to cut the pills?

[youandme]

Naltrexone --> LDN Dosing: This liquid method and calculator link is how the correct dosage can be had.

http://nathankennard...calculator.html

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Has anyone had any success cutting up the pills from allldaychemist and effectively using them as LDN? Any other cheap sources?

We don't cut them up... we dissolve them. If you read page one of this thread, Funk talks about it. And I'm sure it has been mentioned in other posts here as well.

And now I see 'youandme' just posted a calc link to help you out as well.


I am back on now that my pulse came back down. The feeling of the endorphins getting kicked up by LDN and then keep up by Flexeril was pretty intense, but not worth the high pulse (and whatever it could cause long term I have no idea). Now that the Flexeril is out of my system, I'm back on LDN and no high pulse. A side effect of Flexeril for many is high pulse, and a few people on the LDN board had reported it with just LDN... so I guess I was really asking for it Separately though I appear to tolerate them fine.

I used half a 5mg Valium a night initially for the first few weeks to get around sleep issues. Well any more than usual as even without LDN I seldom sleep more than 6 hrs.

[youandme]

http://www.researchc...a...078&fID=813

Check this video Presentation from Stanford University... ref: Pain/Fibromyalgia...just over half way through the presentation they mention the use of LDN ..and how it works in reducing pain !

Also talks about Chronic Pain/Lyme/ and other conditions...very nice presentation.

Edited by youandme, 24 August 2009 - 05:51 AM.

[kismet]

Am I right in assuming there is no clinical evidence available?

No. Put "(low dose naltrexone)" as a search term in pub med.

12 trials. 1-2 concerend with autoimminuty (MS). Zero well-powered trials able to show efficacy. Yeah, that's very nice indeed. 
People should just admit there's no way of knowing if it does any good for their disease, because there's no clinical data.

[stephen_b]

Am I right in assuming there is no clinical evidence available?

No. Put "(low dose naltrexone)" as a search term in pub med.

12 trials. 1-2 concerend with autoimminuty (MS). Zero well-powered trials able to show efficacy. Yeah, that's very nice indeed.
People should just admit there's no way of knowing if it does any good for their disease, because there's no clinical data.

Kismet, no need to be quite so negative. The controlled trials are coming. There are 167 results for naltrexone, and 16 results contain the phrase "low dose" in their titles.

Anecdotal data, clinical observation, and uncontrolled trials are not worthless. Especially in cases (like MS) where there are no effective alternative treatments or the mainstream treatment is dangerous and when a proposed treatment like LDN is safe, I fully support an individual giving it a try.

StephenB

[simon007]

Has anyone had any success cutting up the pills from allldaychemist and effectively using them as LDN? Any other cheap sources?

You can try here, aprox. 55 euro for 28 tablets of 50 mg.
http://www.assetchem...oduct_id=963293

Cheers,

Simon

[TheFountain]

Has anyone had any success cutting up the pills from allldaychemist and effectively using them as LDN? Any other cheap sources?

You can try here, aprox. 55 euro for 28 tablets of 50 mg.
http://www.assetchem...oduct_id=963293

Cheers,

Simon

That site is weird. I performed a search for Nalorex, Naltrexone and Revia so I could use the USD calculator and got 0 results. How did you find it on that site? General product list?

Edited by TheFountain, 25 August 2009 - 04:18 AM.

[youandme]

12 trials. 1-2 concerend with autoimminuty (MS). Zero well-powered trials able to show efficacy. Yeah, that's very nice indeed.
People should just admit there's no way of knowing if it does any good for their disease, because there's no clinical data.

Kismet

Did you get a chance to check out the Stanford video presentation I posted..a mini-trial for LDN amongst Fibro sufferers was amazingly successful...Dr Sean Mackey (presenter, Stanford) is obviously amazed at LDN's abilities wouldnt you agree.