51 replies to this topic

[buck1s]

Can I get some advice as to what form of magnesium with which to supplement? I'm currently (just started) using potassium/magnesium aspartate combination but I'm not sure about aspartic acid. iHerb sells mag orotate through a brand called "Nutrient Carriers". I don't know anything about them, however, so I'm hesitant to spend so much. Any other forms which are good enough? Citrate? Malate? Thanks.

Chris

[ajnast4r]

glycinate made by albion labs.
solgar & carlson both sell it very cheap.

http://www.vitacost....lated-Magnesium

[pycnogenol]

I take Source Naturals "Ultra-Mag" (magnesium citrate, taurinate, glycinate, and succinate)

[buck1s]

Thanks, all. I'll probably pick up the Carlson's in my next vitacost order. So is glycinate the desired form or is it the best of what's available?

[krillin]

Citrate's good enough. Heck, I used to take the oxide and my magnesium blood test came back fine.

[neogenic]

Magnesium Orotate, without a doubt in my mind is the clear-cut winner. Oratates beat out even chelate with bioavailability, orotic acid has a slew of benefits, and lastly (most importantly) Magnerot has 20 years of great data with cardiac rehab and post surgical data. Check out pubmed.

[Shepard]

I think it's ultimately going to depend on how much magnesium you supplement and your budget. I think magnesium orotate is pretty cool, but the bulk of my magnesium supplementation comes from magnesium citrate. It's dirt cheap and effective.

[shamus]

Magnesium orotate is pretty good, except that it has a low elemental magnesium equivalency.

[ortcloud]

Magnesium Orotate, without a doubt in my mind is the clear-cut winner.  Oratates beat out even chelate with bioavailability, orotic acid has a slew of benefits, and lastly (most importantly) Magnerot has 20 years of great data with cardiac rehab and post surgical data.  Check out pubmed.

So how much do you take ? It would seen since since mag oro has a low elemental percentage, it would take large amounts just to get the rda.

On the other hand since it is more effective then maybe you dont need as much to be effective.

Maybe the rda is based heavily upon a less effective form so maybe you dont need to try to get 400mg. ?

so then how much should you take ?

You typically cant rely on what they recommend because they have restrictions to deal with like the limit into how
much they can put in one pill, how many pills people are willing to take, cost etc.

[neogenic]

The RDA does not apply at all for minerals, its illogical given the various salts...beyond elemental dosing. The variance in Biovailability of the various salts is radical. For example, Lithium orotate when given at the same dose as the lithium carbonate is toxic. It has up to 20 times more bio- than other salts. The orotate vs. carbonate study with lithium showed over 300% the levels...with elementally equivalent amounts. Over 97% of the Lithium orotate is efficacious with studies. Meaning 97% of the elemental gets there.
http://mysite.verizo...ithium-orotate/

Orotic Acid boosts muscle phosphocreatine more effectively than just using creatine alone because it increases muscle Uridine levels.
Phosphocreatine fuels ATP and muscular contractions. Elevation of intramuscular Uridine levels increase muscle phosphocreatine and creatine levels in the cardiac tissue.

Orotic Acid can increase ATP production 3 different ways; through the production of ribose moieties, Uridine monophosphate and glycogen storage (elevated glycogen lead to an enhanced capacity for ATP resynthesis from anaerobic glycolysis).

Dr. Hans Nepier, famed German Oncologist. His decades of groundbreaking research included Orotic Acid (uracil-6-carboxylic acid) bound to salts in the sixties. He concluded that orotate salts, being neutrally charged, pass easily through cell membranes.

In effect, orotate shuttles the mineral atoms into cells and tissues, producing higher concentrations. Considering the poor bioavailability of minerals and the mounting research in there relation to optimal athletic performance, Eastern Bloc athletes quickly adopted them with the magnesium orotate gathering much attention.

It wasn't until the 1980's that American researchers started to do clinical studies using magnesium orotate, labeled by researchers as magnerot.

Recently, at the Hamburg symposium on magnesium orotate, a number of studies of metabolic supplementation were presented. Literally hundreds of studies are now published on orotic acid/orotate.

OA has antioxidant properties, which in part explains the protective effects seen neuronally and in the myocardium. OA has ascertained to stimulate erythropoiesis and leucopoiesis... So, do you think increased ATP production, greater oxygenation of the tissues, improved neuronal impulses for reflexes... do you see where this is going in terms of benefit to the individual?

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...elemental. Blah. Read the studies on magnesium orotate and go by those. Again OA is great on its own and synergistic with Magnesium...further it greatly improves the absoprtion and bioavailability to the target tissue. To the point of being a radical difference. Some of these salts, for example, oxide (MagOx was mentioned) have been shown to be vastly inferior.

Carbonate falls very low on the list, nearly as bad as oxide. Hence, you shouldn't just focus on milligrams (although with all the prop. blends in the industry its not an option) and consider bioavailability and how much your body will USE. In many cases compensating by taking more of a poor BV mineral salt is not the best way either. Consider copper and iron in excess can be prooxidant. Many studies on Lithium Orotate or Magnesium Orotate vs. other salts show much more positive effects at drastically lower doses, like 1/8-1/12 the amounts. Hence, lithium when delivered the orotic acid salt would be the preferred form.

Basically Chelates and Orotates are my favorites. Read below. This shows the greatness of the cheapest form of magnesium.

Magnes Res. 2003 Sep;16(3):183-91.
Mg citrate found more bioavailable than other Mg preparations in a randomised, double-blind study.
Walker AF, Marakis G, Christie S, Byng M.
Hugh Sinclair Unit of Human Nutrition, School of Food Biosciences, The University of Reading, Whiteknights, Reading, UK. a.f.walker@reading.ac.uk

Published data on the bioavailability of various Mg preparations is too fragmented and scanty to inform proper choice of Mg preparation for clinical studies. In this study, the relative bioavailability of three preparations of Mg (amino-acid chelate, citrate and oxide) were compared at a daily dose of 300 mg of elemental Mg in 46 healthy individuals. The study was a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel intervention, of 60 days duration. Urine, blood and saliva samples were taken at baseline, 24 h after the first Mg supplement was taken ('acute' supplementation) and after 60 days of daily Mg consumption ('chronic' supplementation). Results showed that supplementation of the organic forms of Mg (citrate and amino-acid chelate) showed greater absorption (P = 0.033) at 60 days than MgO, as assessed by the 24-h urinary Mg excretion. Mg citrate led to the greatest mean serum Mg concentration compared with other treatments following both acute (P = 0.026) and chronic (P = 0.006) supplementation. Furthermore, although mean erythrocyte Mg concentration showed no differences among groups, chronic Mg citrate supplementation resulted in the greatest (P = 0.027) mean salivary Mg concentration compared with all other treatments. Mg oxide supplementation resulted in no differences compared to placebo. We conclude that a daily supplementation with Mg citrate shows superior bioavailability after 60 days of treatment when compared with other treatments studied.

Lastly, this study shows MgO above all other forms of the mineral salt for magnesium is the most pro-oxidant (creating free radical damage) vs. other forms (some others lessen). Not good.
http://www.sci.u-sze...ctaHP/47107.pdf

Hence, my dislike for Magnesium Oxide.

Hope this helps, as for my rationale.

[ortcloud]

I dont think you read past my second sentence. I agree with you it is more potent, so you need less.

So I am asking how much do you take ?

[resveratrol]

Lastly, this study shows MgO above all other forms of the mineral salt for magnesium is the most pro-oxidant (creating free radical damage) vs. other forms (some others lessen). Not good.
http://www.sci.u-sze...ctaHP/47107.pdf

Hence, my dislike for Magnesium Oxide.

Holy cow! I had no idea. Thanks for the info, neogenic!

[graatch]

Yeah, "oxide". LOL.

I'm not really fond of glycinate since glycine can actually stimulate NMDA activity, which is the opposite of one thing you/I am kind of are trying to do with magnesium (combat Ca+ / glutamate overactivity).

[nameless]

I'm currently taking both orotate and glycinate forms of magnesium.

I am confused about one thing regarding orotate, though. I have read about its heart benefits, and some anti-cancer info. Yet ran across this:

http://carcin.oxford...bstract/6/5/765

Does orotic acid promote liver cancer?

[neogenic]

Orotic acid was used intentionally for this reason after a carcinogen was introduced...to accelerate the growth. Orotic acid is a precursor for pyrimidine nucleotide synthesis. A building block. Massive doses certainly in the presence of a tumor from a potent carcinogen would catalyze the reaction. They are testing this to use for that reason, not as an alarm that orotic acid causes cancer. If orotic acid is used without a tumor present it will be hepatoprotective and has numerous benefits, being a bulding block. IGF-1, GH, insulin, hormones and even good nutrition can accelerate the growth of existing tumors. Antioxidants as well. Read the studies that beta-carotene supplements did the same thing. In the presence of a tumor it's not good to protect the cell damage/apoptosis.

It does not promote liver cancer. Neither does antioxidants, nutrition, anabolic hormones, etc.

You also need to look at the full study, it reads a bit differently.

[krillin]

Here they used the RDA of the orotate.

Cardiovasc Drugs Ther. 1998 Sep;12 Suppl 2:197-202.
On the significance of magnesium in extreme physical stress.
Golf SW, Bender S, Grüttner J.
Institute of Clinical Chemistry and Pathobiochemistry, University Medical School, Justus-Liebig-University, Giessen, Germany.

In a double-blind randomized study, 23 competitive triathletes competing in an event consisting of a 500-meter swim, a 20-km bicycle race, and a 5-km run were studied after 4-week supplementation with placebo or 17 mmol/d Mg orotate. The tests were carried out without a break. Blood was collected before and after the test, and between the different events for assaying energy stress and membrane metabolism. Swimming, cycling, and running times decreased in the Mg-orotate group compared with the controls. Serum glucose concentration increased 87% during the test in the control group and 118% in the Mg-orotate group, while serum insulin increased 39% in the controls and decreased 65% in the Mg-orotate group. Venous O2 partial pressure increased 126% during the test in the controls and increased 208% in the Mg-orotate group. Venous CO2 partial pressure after the bicycle race decreased 66% (significantly) in the Mg-orotate group compared with 74% in the controls. Blood proton concentration decreased to 90% in the Mg-orotate group (significantly) compared with 98% in the controls. Blood leukocyte count increased from 5.92/nL to 11.0/nL in the controls and from 5.81/nL to 9.10/nL in the Mg-orotate group, a significant difference. Serum cortisol was lower in the Mg-orotate group before and after the test compared with the controls. CK catalytic concentration after the test was elevated 140% in the controls compared with 122% Mg-orotate group. The stress-induced modifications of energy and hormone metabolism described in this study indicate altered glucose utilization after Mg-Orotate supplementation and a reduced stress response without affecting competitive potential.

PMID: 9794094

[niner]

In a double-blind randomized study, 23 competitive triathletes competing in an event consisting of a 500-meter swim, a 20-km bicycle race, and a 5-km run were studied after 4-week supplementation with placebo or 17 mmol/d Mg orotate. The tests were carried out without a break. Blood was collected before and after the test, and between the different events for assaying energy stress and membrane metabolism. Swimming, cycling, and running times decreased in the Mg-orotate group compared with the controls. Serum glucose concentration increased 87% during the test in the control group and 118% in the Mg-orotate group, while serum insulin increased 39% in the controls and decreased 65% in the Mg-orotate group. Venous O2 partial pressure increased 126% during the test in the controls and increased 208% in the Mg-orotate group. Venous CO2 partial pressure after the bicycle race decreased 66% (significantly) in the Mg-orotate group compared with 74% in the controls. Blood proton concentration decreased to 90% in the Mg-orotate group (significantly) compared with 98% in the controls. Blood leukocyte count increased from 5.92/nL to 11.0/nL in the controls and from 5.81/nL to 9.10/nL in the Mg-orotate group, a significant difference. Serum cortisol was lower in the Mg-orotate group before and after the test compared with the controls. CK catalytic concentration after the test was elevated 140% in the controls compared with 122% Mg-orotate group. The stress-induced modifications of energy and hormone metabolism described in this study indicate altered glucose utilization after Mg-Orotate supplementation and a reduced stress response without affecting competitive potential.

Damn! That's really impressive, assuming the controls were not Mg deficient. Any idea if this is due solely to the improved Mg delivery, or is the orotate ion itself responsible for some of these effects? Would you see similar performance enhancement with Mg Citrate? Sodium Orotate?

[s123]

I use Mg-carbonate in powder. Good bioavailability and very cheap.

[stephen_b]

"Magnesium orotate in severe congestive heart failure (MACH)", PMID 18281113 (2008 Feb 15):

BACKGROUND: Aim of this study was to evaluate adjuvant magnesium orotate on mortality and clinical symptoms in patients with severe heart failure under optimal cardiovascular medication. METHODS: In a monocentric, controlled, double-blind study, 79 patients with severe congestive heart failure (NYHA IV) under optimal medical cardiovascular treatment were randomised to receive either magnesium orotate (6000 mg for 1 month, 3000 mg for about 11 months, n=40) or placebo (n=39). Both groups were comparable in demographic data, duration of heart failure and pre- and concomitant treatment. RESULTS: After mean treatment duration of 1 year (magnesium orotate: 364.1+/-14.7 days, placebo: 361.2+/-12.7 days) the survival rate was 75.7% compared to 51.6% under placebo (p<0.05). Clinical symptoms improved in 38.5% of patients under magnesium orotate, whereas they deteriorated in 56.3% of patients under placebo (p<0.001). CONCLUSION: Magnesium orotate may be used as adjuvant therapy in patients on optimal treatment for severe congestive heart failure, increasing survival rate and improving clinical symptoms and patient's quality of life.

Seems like an impressive result.

Stephen

Edited by stephen_b, 26 November 2008 - 09:12 PM.

[stephen_b]

Orotic acid is often referred to in the literature as a promoter of tumors (PMID 10426821):

Similar patterns of results were obtained when the resistance of the foci to the mitoinhibitory effects of orotic acid, a liver tumor promoter and an inhibitor of DNA synthesis in normal hepatocytes, was monitored.

On the other hand, from this article:

The Main Mechanisms Of Orotic Acid:

1. Enhancement and maintenance of ATP pools
2. Increased glucose uptake.
3. Increased ribose moieties (R-1-P & R-5-P) leading to enhance ribose formation.
4. Increased muscle carnosine stores.
5. Support and enhancement of muscle hypertrophy (via RNA synthesis support during growth).
6. Elevates uridine a DNA base shown to increase muscle contractile capacity.

Please correct me if I'm wrong: is the orotic acid from magnesium orotate a cancer risk?

Stephen

[caruga]

For £15 I can get 75g of elemental magnesium in 500g of magnesium citrate.
For £14 I can get 3.5g elemental magnesium in 50g of magnesium orotate.

Guess which I'm planning to buy.

Incidentally is Magnesium malate better than magnesium citrate and malic acid taken separately, or the same?

[shp5]

Hello,

does someone know more about the bioavailability of the magnesium in magnesium ascorbate?

It is still rather cheap and I suppose it hasn't the laxative effect of either Vit C or Magnesium Citrate. If you want to take both those supplements.

[Justchill]

Hi, currently I'm taking this:

http://www.iherb.com...psules/662?at=0

How much magnesium should you take?

I take 1 cap in the morning and 1 cap before bedtime. Is it possible it affects sleep?

[pycnogenol]

Thought I'd give this magnesium product a try:

http://www.iherb.com...ules/18944?at=0

I take one capsule in the morning and one capsule in the evening totaling 400 mg.

Edited by pycnogenol, 15 March 2011 - 03:20 PM.

[stephen_b]

Nice article: A Review of Mineral Absorption with Special Consideration of Chelation as a Method to Improve Bioavailability of Mineral Supplements. It covers some of the digestive mechanisms for mineral absorption. Still a lot of uncertainty still involved, unfortunately.

[Sillewater]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16868704

Int Urol Nephrol. 2006;38(2):317-22.Inverse correlation between serum magnesium and parathyroid hormone in peritoneal dialysis patients: a contributing factor to adynamic bone disease?Wei M, Esbaei K, Bargman JM, Oreopoulos DG.

I'd be careful of megadosing magnesium. I know we all have healthy kidneys but its a risk nonetheless.

[stephen_b]

These are dialysis patients. I'd be careful applying conclusions from that population to the general population. The abstract doesn't mention vitamin D status. Apparently most dialysis patients suffer from D deficiency (PMID 20947538).

In my case I'd be happy just reaching the RDA ...

[August59]

There is another thread on here that has mag. gluconate as having the highest availability, but I had a hard time finding it.

[Delafuente]

In a double-blind randomized study, 23 competitive triathletes competing in an event consisting of a 500-meter swim, a 20-km bicycle race, and a 5-km run were studied after 4-week supplementation with placebo or 17 mmol/d Mg orotate. The tests were carried out without a break. Blood was collected before and after the test, and between the different events for assaying energy stress and membrane metabolism. Swimming, cycling, and running times decreased in the Mg-orotate group compared with the controls. Serum glucose concentration increased 87% during the test in the control group and 118% in the Mg-orotate group, while serum insulin increased 39% in the controls and decreased 65% in the Mg-orotate group. Venous O2 partial pressure increased 126% during the test in the controls and increased 208% in the Mg-orotate group. Venous CO2 partial pressure after the bicycle race decreased 66% (significantly) in the Mg-orotate group compared with 74% in the controls. Blood proton concentration decreased to 90% in the Mg-orotate group (significantly) compared with 98% in the controls. Blood leukocyte count increased from 5.92/nL to 11.0/nL in the controls and from 5.81/nL to 9.10/nL in the Mg-orotate group, a significant difference. Serum cortisol was lower in the Mg-orotate group before and after the test compared with the controls. CK catalytic concentration after the test was elevated 140% in the controls compared with 122% Mg-orotate group. The stress-induced modifications of energy and hormone metabolism described in this study indicate altered glucose utilization after Mg-Orotate supplementation and a reduced stress response without affecting competitive potential.

Damn! That's really impressive, assuming the controls were not Mg deficient. Any idea if this is due solely to the improved Mg delivery, or is the orotate ion itself responsible for some of these effects? Would you see similar performance enhancement with Mg Citrate? Sodium Orotate?

Found the study link: http://www.springerl...1778675x20745l/

They used 17 mmol/day, taken with 2 tablets 3x a day. I did the conversions and it comes down to ~1 g (0.95g) of Magnesium Orotate per tablet.

One main supplier of magnesium orotate seems to be NCI dr hans nieper. Not sure of the reputation, but will try it out. Amazon has these in stock.

[Ark]

http://en.wikipedia....ium_L-threonate