51 replies to this topic

[zenman]

They used 17 mmol/day, taken with 2 tablets 3x a day. I did the conversions and it comes down to ~1 g (0.95g) of Magnesium Orotate per tablet.

One main supplier of magnesium orotate seems to be NCI dr hans nieper. Not sure of the reputation, but will try it out. Amazon has these in stock.

I've been using NCI MG Oro 500mg tabs daily for 2 years quite satisfactorily as it raised my mum's insufficient Mg in her bloodtest from 0.6 to a steady 0.9, within the reference range of 0.7-1.0.

Recently, I found issues with the packaging of my new bottles of NCI MG Oro:
1) It has no expiry date (Batch #202332);
2) the bottle is not sealed inside. The seal (the one that says "Sealed for your Protection") is stuck to the cap & does not have any adhesive around the lip of the bottle; and
3) the tablet is slightly smaller. My previous stock (Batch #10104) is powdery compared to the new one which is glazed.

I wrote to NCI, the manufacturer twice in the last 3 weeks and have yet to receive any response! That is very poor customer care!

Mg Orotate is not a cheap supplement. Suddenly I do not feel comfortable with NCI's products!

Does anyone have the same experience with regard to NCI's products?

[MercuryAX]

On Wikipedia, it said Orotic acid can be mutagenic. Any thoughts/supporting research for that?

[hallucinogen]

Yes, I would stay away from Orotic Acid combinations, and choose either Magnesium Malate(most effective and noticeable effects, without irritating the digestive tract) or Magnesium Citrate-Malate by Thorne Research (which might be Even better, and they don't use additives like Stearic Acid or anything else in their supplements !)

Citrate-Malate supposed to be bound together, different from Citrate bond and Malate bond separately,
if someone knows exact chemistry behind this, please draw a picture of the molecule

And zenman, I would not take tablets from that NCl bottle, ouch

Edited by hallucinogen, 05 September 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[tunt01]

On Wikipedia, it said Orotic acid can be mutagenic. Any thoughts/supporting research for that?

When I looked into forms of magnesium, I found orotate to be pro-cancerous. I think there was a paper specifically citing liver cancer, but can't recall off top of my head.

[nameless]

On Wikipedia, it said Orotic acid can be mutagenic. Any thoughts/supporting research for that?

There are ratty studies showing it can increase the incidence of tumors. There was a European agency (which I forget the name of), which didn't approve of mag orotate due to those concerns.

Mag malate/citrate-malate should be fine, but just don't consume them when taking aluminum based antacids (probably shouldn't take those to begin with). I've found mag lactate to be the gentlest, but tried the above forms too... they should be fine for most people.

[Colour]

Magnesium L-Threonate is the best form.

Magnesium Glycinate is the best form on a budget

WARNING: Albion makes tabs that do Not cause your skin to smell bad, etc. Other brands can do weird things, Albion is the best (Buying sources below).

Info Sources: Here

Buying Sources: Here and Here for Amazon

If anyone knows a bulk supplier of the powder L-Threonate I will carry it in my nootropic store. The powder form is not being sold anywhere.

Albion is the best: Quote: "I have tried other brands of chelated magnesium and this is the only one I have been able to tolerate."

 

Edit: referral link removed. -mod

Edited by niner, 17 August 2014 - 10:23 PM.

[Justchill]

If your skin smells, I suggest you take a shower...

My skin has never smelt bad from Magnesium, taking the Now Foods citrate (probably) form - caps 400mg

[timar]

There are so much absurd claims made about different forms of magnesium. This is what I wrote elsewhere:

There is really not much difference in bioavailability between different supplemental forms of magnesium. Don't let the sellers of fancy super-expensive magnesium formulas fool you. Most studies suggesting that some form of magnesium has superior bioavailability compared to another have methodological issues. The reason that cheap magnesium oxide appears to have less bioavailbility compared to citrate or amino acid chelates if you look at short-term absorption only is because the oxide is some kind of "sustained release" form. If you instead look at long-term absorption over a 24h period, there are hardly any differences in bioavailability.

The German article I linked to summarizes the findings of a comprehensive series of bioavailability studies commissioned by German health authorities. They concluded that there are hardly any differences in the bioavailability of different forms of magnesium, be they organic or anorganic. Why would any sane person spend money on expensive forms of magnesium if dirt-cheap magnesium oxide is absorbed to ~45% (the same rate as magnesium aspartate)? Even if the absorption of some fancy and pricy form of magnesium would turn out to be as high 90%, it would only be twice as good as the oxide judged by the magnesium content but probably worse on a per-weight basis, because the oxide provides a whopping 66% of elemental magnesium. However, expensive and highly advertised forms of magnesium may provide a better placebo response

Edited by timar, 06 December 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Colour]

@justchill i'm sure your skin doesn't smell bad haha, just one of the side effects of other brands
@timar, thanks.
I just purchased 6 bottles of Magnesium glycinate 90 vcaps each from Albion labs (the least side fx one) for $25 w/shipping from Swanson distributor. I just had 4g at 7pm, (now 7:23, no noticeable fx yet, reporting l8er).

[blood]

They concluded that there are hardly any differences in the bioavailability of different forms of magnesium, be they organic or anorganic. Why would any sane person spend money on expensive forms of magnesium if dirt-cheap magnesium oxide is absorbed to ~45% (the same rate as magnesium aspartate)?

Has anyone done a comparative study to determine which forms of magnesium are best tolerated with respect to gastrointestinal side effects?

I'd guess one of the reasons magnesium glycinate (and perhaps other expensive forms of magnesium) is popular is that it doesn't seem to promote loose bowels/ diarrhoea as effectively as magnesium oxide.

Edited by blood, 07 December 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Colour]

I am curious why my post is not liked (#37)?
Please guess away if you have any theories

Edited by Colour, 07 December 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[blood]

I am curious why my post is not liked (#37)?
Please guess away if you have any theories

I'd guess someone, somewhere was objecting to you making claims (e.g., a particular type of mg is the best) without justifying your assertions.

Also. You link to Mercola, who is disliked by many folks on Longecity.

I find it despicable when people down vote without explaining why.

Edited by blood, 07 December 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[Colour]

yes truly despicable ahha!

I posted about my effects from magnesium: Here

[hallucinogen]

Right now, I have narrowed it down to 2 of the best forms of Magnesium: -> Magnesium Malate and Magnesium Glycinate

Malate chelates aluminum out pretty well, and their bio-availability should very closely similar

Does anyone still think that Glycinate might be a better choice over Malate, and if so, what are your main reasons for it ?

Edited by hallucinogen, 01 January 2014 - 09:24 PM.

[hallucinogen]

And also Malic Acid helps to dissolve Liver stones,
but there have been a few concerns about Magnesium Malate being easily dissolvable in water, meaning it requires an acid or a base to dissociate, which could impede its bio-availability in the digestive tract and cause digestive discomfort

Does Magnesium Glycinate dissolve readily in pure water ?

It seems to me that the optimal solution might be to ingest Magensium Glycinate with Malic Acid on the side..

[Axmann8]

Citrate's good enough. Heck, I used to take the oxide and my magnesium blood test came back fine.

 

That's because magnesium blood tests are virtually worthless as they don't even come close to accurately measuring intracellular magnesium levels. It's likely that most people with magnesium deficiencies would register normal on a serum magnesium test, which is probably part of the reason they're not included in electrolyte panels. An RBC magnesium test seems to be one of the better ways to assess magnesium status.

Magnesium oxide is garbage that should never be used in a serious attempt to raise magnesium levels in the body, and, if anything, could further exacerbate electrolyte issues due to the fact that it's a laxative.

[bor]

 

On Wikipedia, it said Orotic acid can be mutagenic. Any thoughts/supporting research for that?

There are ratty studies showing it can increase the incidence of tumors. There was a European agency (which I forget the name of), which didn't approve of mag orotate due to those concerns.

Mag malate/citrate-malate should be fine, but just don't consume them when taking aluminum based antacids (probably shouldn't take those to begin with). I've found mag lactate to be the gentlest, but tried the above forms too... they should be fine for most people.

 

 

It is European Food Safety Authority (EFSA), which says: "...in the light of the tumor-promoting effect of orotic acid in animal experimentation... the use of orotate as a source of minerals...is of safety concern."

 

EFSA also says magnesium aspartate is "of safety concern." Not sure about glutamate. Aspartate and glutamate are excitatory neurotransmitters in the brain, but I'm not sure if they would like act that in doses present in Mg supplements.

 

Magnesium oxide, hydroxide (milk of magnesia), sulfate (Epsom salt) and carbonate are (supposedly, according to some studies) poorly bioavailable. But I've found one study in which 50% of magnesium from mineral water (magnesium mainly in the form of carbonate and sulfate) was absorbed.

http://ajcn.nutritio...nt/75/1/65.long

 

From what I've managed to find out: magnesium lactate, malate, citrate and gluconate may be most bioavailable. Also probably other chelates, but I haven't found specific data.

http://www.nutrients...magnesium.html 

Edited by bor, 18 August 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[niner]

Magnesium oxide, hydroxide (milk of magnesia), sulfate (Epsom salt) and carbonate are (supposedly, according to some studies) poorly bioavailable.

 

The non-bioavailability of Mag oxide is a widely held belief, but is apparently not the case.  MgO is absorbed slowly, so short term assays provide a misleading picture.  See this post and links within.

[Gerrans]

 

Magnesium oxide, hydroxide (milk of magnesia), sulfate (Epsom salt) and carbonate are (supposedly, according to some studies) poorly bioavailable.

 

The non-bioavailability of Mag oxide is a widely held belief, but is apparently not the case.  MgO is absorbed slowly, so short term assays provide a misleading picture.  See this post and links within.

 

 In any case, one does not have to read reports to know what works. I have experimented with various amounts of various types of magnesium, and I can sense what is affecting me. LEF's magnesium 500 definitely works, which is mainly magnesium oxide. I find that all the magnesium pills from reputable companies work. For me it is overcomplicating matters to worry too much about bioavailability rates and elemental magnesium amounts: just take the pills, and if they work they work. Magnesium gives me an underlying sense of calm. Too much, and this becomes cloying; but one pill at breakfast and one a few hours before bedtime feels just about right to me.

 

[bor]

I've read these magnesium threads here and checked all the links. I've also found a study in which magnesium oxide, after 60 days of supplementation, and then after 24-hour urine collection, had no more effect than placebo, while magnesium chloride and "amino-acid chelate" were effective.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/14596323 

 

In the post you (niner) showed, there is a study done in rats. While you can say, it can be applicable to humans, it's still not a study in humans.

 

I've also read the article from this German journal, in which the author claims all Mg compounds have about the same bioavailability.

 

All what I can say at this point, the studies made so far are highly conflicting.

Edited by bor, 18 August 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[niner]

I've read these magnesium threads here and checked all the links. I've also found a study in which magnesium oxide, after 60 days of supplementation, and then after 24-hour urine collection, had no more effect than placebo, while magnesium chloride and "amino-acid chelate" were effective.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/14596323

 

Lets look at that study:
 

Magnes Res. 2003 Sep;16(3):183-91.
Mg citrate found more bioavailable than other Mg preparations in a randomised, double-blind study.
Walker AF1, Marakis G, Christie S, Byng M.

Published data on the bioavailability of various Mg preparations is too fragmented and scanty to inform proper choice of Mg preparation for clinical studies. In this study, the relative bioavailability of three preparations of Mg (amino-acid chelate, citrate and oxide) were compared at a daily dose of 300 mg of elemental Mg in 46 healthy individuals. The study was a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel intervention, of 60 days duration. Urine, blood and saliva samples were taken at baseline, 24 h after the first Mg supplement was taken ('acute' supplementation) and after 60 days of daily Mg consumption ('chronic' supplementation). Results showed that supplementation of the organic forms of Mg (citrate and amino-acid chelate) showed greater absorption (P = 0.033) at 60 days than MgO, as assessed by the 24-h urinary Mg excretion. Mg citrate led to the greatest mean serum Mg concentration compared with other treatments following both acute (P = 0.026) and chronic (P = 0.006) supplementation. Furthermore, although mean erythrocyte Mg concentration showed no differences among groups, chronic Mg citrate supplementation resulted in the greatest (P = 0.027) mean salivary Mg concentration compared with all other treatments. Mg oxide supplementation resulted in no differences compared to placebo. We conclude that a daily supplementation with Mg citrate shows superior bioavailability after 60 days of treatment when compared with other treatments studied.

PMID: 14596323

Isn't the erythrocyte (RBC) Mg concentration the only one that matters? I thought the various bodily fluid Mg concentrations could be misleading... In that case, then this paper says that all of the forms they looked at are equivalent. It sounds like the case where MgO showed no difference with placebo was a salivary measurement. I'm really not sure what the meaning of salivary Mg is. Does anyone have any insight into that?

[bor]

I've found what appears to be the entire article:

http://www.magnezij....._2003_engl.pdf

 

It shows a bit different picture. Plasma Mg levels after 60 days after MgO were even higher than after Mg amino acid chelate but lower than after Mg citrate. Urinary Mg was lowest after MgO. I don't think measuring salivary levels is a reliable method of determining Mg status.

 

Currently, there is no single reliable method of assessment of Mg status. According to this systematic review of studies: "Available data analysis suggests that serum/plasma magnesium concentration, red blood cell (RBC) concentration and urinary magnesium excretion responded to dietary manipulation."

 

According to Clinical Kidney Journal, Mg in the red blood cells reflects extracellular, not intracellular Mg status: "Extracellular magnesium accounts for ∼1% of total body magnesium, which is primarily found in serum and red blood cells (RBCs)." 

 

Edited by bor, 19 August 2014 - 06:04 AM.