74 replies to this topic

[PWAIN]

I was just wondering about people heres views on this. A company called celldyne pharma is selling a product called Folstaxan which supposedly has follistatin as the active ingridient.

In their testing with just one person (yeah I know!), follistatin was found in the blood after consuming their product and the persons myostatin levels fell around 37%. Not very scientific but there does appear to be other good science that supports the idea that follistatin is very effective in mice but I think most of this was done using genes. It does at least appear to be absorbed and have an effect on myostatin levels.

For those that are not familiar with myostatin, it appears to be a regulator of muscle mass, in simple terms, more Myostatin means less muscle and vice versa. Follistatin appears to play a part in reducing levels of Myostatin and so seems to increase the amount of muscle tissue. I think follistatin is found in minute quantities in nature particuarly in embryos and gonads - probably used to get the initial muscle mass in newborns. Folstaxan is derived from fertilised chicken eggs I would guess because of the relatively high concentration of follistatin.

Follistatin appears to have minimal side effects, may cause skeletal muscle growth of up to 400% (based on the gene knockout experiments) and acts fast. It sounds too much like a wonder drug but if it turns out to be for real, the implications are huge; muscle wasting diseases treated, super sized and extra lean cattle and other livestock, muscle regrowth for the elderly and of course making bodybuilding much safer (and probably assessible to everyone without steroids, GH or IGF1 or for that matter exercise). There is also something similar that is for bone strengthening which would be good for the elderly.

It is still very early stages but the potential for something like this is amazing. imagine if we could get 4 times as much prime beef off our cattle. imagine if the elderly had strong muscle and strong bones. Imagine people with muscle wasting diseases being able to lead active lives. Imagine the average weakling (or geek) now able to stand up for themself. I really hope that this is at least half as good as early indicators.

I would really appreciate the views of others on this board and any other research others have come across.

Take a look at these amazing pics of muscle improvement (That second mouse really does look like a mouse equivalent of a bodybuilder):

http://www.plosone.o...ne.0000789.g003


Some links:

http://folstaxan.com/index.htm

http://www.freepaten...0020157126.html

http://www.plosone.o...al.pone.0000789

http://www.jhu.edu/s...ions/index.html

[rabagley]

I think it's quite interesting, especially the anti-frailty aspect that might be useful to manage the loss of skeletal muscle with advanced years.

Interesting reading, definitely.

[ortcloud]

buy some, take it, take before and after pics and then post them and then I might be interested.

[niner]

For what it's worth, mice have something like 50 times as much myostatin as humans, such that this is probably going to be one of those things that works better in mice than people.

[caston]

Does increase in muscle mass relate to a decrease in co-ordination and fine motor skills?


http://en.wikipedia....iki/Follistatin

[PWAIN]

buy some, take it, take before and after pics and then post them and then I might be interested.

I have placed an order last week (may never hear from them again but took the risk). I will try it for a month and see if I have any negative reaction. I'll monitor myself as best I can and see if I get any improvements in the gym. If no negatives, I'll order a couple more months supply and see if any improvement after 3 months.

I certainly post results (and if v.good results it'll be posted just after a big new order:).

I am caught between what I think is good science for follistatin and doubt about fertalised eggs being used as a source for follistatin. Surely anyone eating fertilised eggs would have noticed this in the past or are fertilised eggs considered a no no?

[PWAIN]

For what it's worth, mice have something like 50 times as much myostatin as humans, such that this is probably going to be one of those things that works better in mice than people.

Yeah, I saw this too but I am hoping that it's effect is proportional on a percentage basis but won't really know until I try it.

Those mice seem to have all the best results when it comes to all supps and meds....maybe hitchhikers guide was right

I really hope something comes of this because I think this has a lot of positive potential.

[RighteousReason]

For what it's worth, mice have something like 50 times as much myostatin as humans, such that this is probably going to be one of those things that works better in mice than people.

you haven't seen the videos of kids born with a myostatin deficiency, have you?

[niner]

For what it's worth, mice have something like 50 times as much myostatin as humans, such that this is probably going to be one of those things that works better in mice than people.

you haven't seen the videos of kids born with a myostatin deficiency, have you?

I've heard tell. But that's not really the question; what we want to know is if in a normal human, you can suppress myostatin with oral follistatin to the point that you get more muscle growth. The mice had a follistatin transgene, so they were getting a lot of follistatin. It's usually a pretty good bet that something will work better in mice than people; I hope that's not the case, but the odds are not spectacular.

[zorba990]

For what it's worth, mice have something like 50 times as much myostatin as humans, such that this is probably going to be one of those things that works better in mice than people.

you haven't seen the videos of kids born with a myostatin deficiency, have you?

I've heard tell. But that's not really the question; what we want to know is if in a normal human, you can suppress myostatin with oral follistatin to the point that you get more muscle growth. The mice had a follistatin transgene, so they were getting a lot of follistatin. It's usually a pretty good bet that something will work better in mice than people; I hope that's not the case, but the odds are not spectacular.

There's a product out there claiming to do this but no real proof it works (myo-t12).
I wonder if there are any negative side effects of elevating Follistatin?

Here's a study using primates:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2852878/

[YOLF]

"In animal studies blocking myostatin has reduced stamina, and weakened muscle attachments."

So what can make muscle attachments stronger? I'd love to pack on 20-40lbs of permanent muscle... they say it burns 40 calories a pound. This could make a great therapy for people struggling with any level of obesity or over weightness.

[pleb]

i did read about another sup that strengthened the ligaments which was taken at the same time but i appear not to have saved that
also i'm taking ACE which didn't show that problem,so i didnt really take much note of that,

i personally think it also need taking with IGF1 L3 as that's the thing that increases satellite cells and builds the new muscle,

ACE is actually a decoy, the myostatin attaches itself to that, rather than the IGF in the blood stream allowing more IGF to reach the receptors,,where it then causes cell proliferation,
from my own observation ACE needs more than the amounts being mentioned,

one of the original myo blockers was a scam by a Turkish guy who claimed that a certain type of enzyme extracted from brown sea weed worked he had supplement companies paying him royalties to sell the stuff
there are a couple of others which have failed in clinical trails, the only genuine ones that i have read about that work are Follistatin 344 there are a few follistatins about with different numbers but only 344 works and ACE 031,

by stopping MYO or reducing it the amount of protein needed is reduced as 90 percent of the protein doesn't get to where it should because of the MYO,,
these are just my readings on this,

i think the MYO 112 mentioned is the seaweed extract, the other that didn't work in clinical trails was MY 029

Edited by pleb, 14 June 2013 - 08:18 AM.

[YOLF]

Is this stuff scheduled in the US? I'd love to pack on some muscle and keep some weight off long term. I'm one of those slingshotters. I've been bouncing around between 185 and 240 for about 10 years now and I should be 155. I really wouldn't mind being 185 if it was an extra 25 muscle. I've been fat for all of my life, so adding 25 muscle I could probably still reach 155, who knows.

[pleb]

at the moment its legal in the US, you need to do some research for amounts most of the US peptide companies sell it but you need a reliable one its sometimes hard sorting out the genuine stuff from those selling rubbish but try Pro Peptides in the states, they sell both ACE and Follistatin, ACE has a different name on there but has AC 031 at the side of the name
you need to do some research to find out if it will do what you want, the BB'rs use other stuff for burning fat,look on the BB forums,,

[pleb]

One of the conclusions reached in the various trails by one company who tried developing a blocker was that simply increasing Follistatin would be more effective,

the ACE Trails in Canada as a treatment for one paticular type of muscular dystrophy had kids between the age of 4 and 10 years old,and has been shown not to have any problems or side effects apart from the odd minor nose bleed or gum bleeding from a couple of the kids, this caused the trails to be stopped for a while so they could look at this more closely, they have decided it wasn't a problem as kids get nose bleeds all the time, and have given the go ahead with close attention from the US FDA's and their approval to restart the trails,

[zorba990]

One of the conclusions reached in the various trails by one company who tried developing a blocker was that simply increasing Follistatin would be more effective,

the ACE Trails in Canada as a treatment for one paticular type of muscular dystrophy had kids between the age of 4 and 10 years old,and has been shown not to have any problems or side effects apart from the odd minor nose bleed or gum bleeding from a couple of the kids, this caused the trails to be stopped for a while so they could look at this more closely, they have decided it wasn't a problem as kids get nose bleeds all the time, and have given the go ahead with close attention from the US FDA's and their approval to restart the trails,

That's good to know, because when I read noebleeds it was a real turn-off. Creatine is a myostatin blocker but I've never found any form that wasn't digestively irritating for me. Still concerned about tendon issues though...would like to see that clarified.

[pleb]

there is plenty of posts out there that mention the tendon brittleness but i have'nt found any thing on the sups that offset this but i'll keep looking and hopefully find the one i did find months ago again,,

one interesting item was that taken with clenbutarol its even more effective,,but no mention of what percentage,
i had read that creatine down regulated Myo but that the effect was very weak compared to the peptides,

i also found this which proved interesting,


An experimental cancer drug has slowed muscular dystrophy in mice with the disease, raising hopes that a simple pill could one day treat the fatal condition in humans.
"The results the researchers are reporting are very dramatic and impressive," says Jeff Chamberlain at the University of Washington School of Medicine in Seattle, US.
The researchers caution that the results are preliminary, but say that the approach might offer advantages over other medicines for muscular dystrophy currently in clinical trials.
There are many forms of the muscle-wasting disease, but no cure for any of them. The most common form of the illness among children, known as Duchenne muscular dystrophy, involves a mutation for a muscle protein known as dystrophin.
Without functioning copies of this protein, muscles weaken, leading to breathing problems and, ultimately, death in the victims' teens or early twenties.
Counteracted deterioration

Pier Puri at the Burnham Institute in La Jolla, California and colleagues tried to boost muscle function in mice carrying a mutation in the dystrophin gene, by treating the animals with a cancer drug called trichostatin A (TSA).
The compound, which is being tested as a treatment for melanoma, causes a change in certain proteins.
Puri says that these changes somehow affect the production of a molecule known as follistatin, which can indirectly cause muscle growth and counteract the deterioration caused by faulty dystrophin.
Muscle-boost abolished

The team gave the mutant mice a daily dose of TSA for three months, after which the rodents underwent a fitness test on a treadmill. Those on TSA managed to last 20 minutes on the treadmill, compared to just 12.5 minutes for the control group.
In a second part of the experiment, Puri's team gave the mice a compound that blocks the effects of follistatin. This had the effect of abolishing the muscle-boosting power of TSA, demonstrating that the cancer treatment works against the symptoms of muscular dystrophy by boosting follistatin, Puri says.
An advantage of TSA is that it can be taken in simple pill form, unlike some of the other treatments in development, such as those involving gene therapy.
But experts stress that, unlike gene therapy, it would have to be continuously administered. "You would have to give this for the lifespan of the patient," Chamberlain notes, adding that the potential side effects of long-term TSA use are unknown.
Journal reference: Nature Medicine (DOI: 10.1038/nm1479)

[YOLF]

Is follistatin an actual statin? The kind that are dangerous?

I guess not, it's already produced natively in our bodies, I guess that only applied to cholesterol lowering statins and antifungals?

Edited by cryonicsculture, 15 June 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[pleb]

as far as i know its a peptide, 288 amino acids so like others has to be injected as its destroyed in the stomach

[YOLF]

Culd it be used subligually?

[pleb]

no its much to large to go through the mucus membrane, its about 50 percent larger than HGH which also has to be injected,
this is possibly one of the reasons much of the research in Labs never finds its way in to any form of production and on to pharmacy shelves it is almost impossible to convert it into pill form,

[platypus]

Is this stuff scheduled in the US? I'd love to pack on some muscle and keep some weight off long term. I'm one of those slingshotters. I've been bouncing around between 185 and 240 for about 10 years now and I should be 155. I really wouldn't mind being 185 if it was an extra 25 muscle. I've been fat for all of my life, so adding 25 muscle I could probably still reach 155, who knows.

Do you strength-train?

[pleb]

i've just realised that the number in the name refers to the number of amino acids so it is larger than the 288 i mentioned (i thought the numbers were simply a catalogue number, doh

[zorba990]

Cissus is well thought of as a tendon strengthener so that may be what you are thinking of. I think you would need to per treat with it and do some strengthening beforehand for best effect.

[pleb]

Thanks i'll look that up and see if the connection i saw also turns up

[YOLF]

Is this stuff scheduled in the US? I'd love to pack on some muscle and keep some weight off long term. I'm one of those slingshotters. I've been bouncing around between 185 and 240 for about 10 years now and I should be 155. I really wouldn't mind being 185 if it was an extra 25 muscle. I've been fat for all of my life, so adding 25 muscle I could probably still reach 155, who knows.

Do you strength-train?

I do from time to time, and working out improves my motivation, but I always wind up reaching that warning pain that leads to injury if not heeded. Unfortunately, being fat and sedentary for 25 years has left me weak. My T levels are also at the bottom of the "acceptible" range for my age group (31), and T is scheduled, so it won't be easy to get a prescription for it. I also lack the motivation to work out these days.

[pleb]

It's highly unlikely you would be able to get a prescription for it, as its still an experimental peptide,

[niner]

It's highly unlikely you would be able to get a prescription for it, as its still an experimental peptide,

Yup. Not a snowball's chance in hell, really.

[YOLF]

It's highly unlikely you would be able to get a prescription for it, as its still an experimental peptide,

Yup. Not a snowball's chance in hell, really.

But it is available somewhere, right? Is anyone doing a group buy? There has been some human testing done with it as a training supplement.

[pleb]

the only trails done on humans is as a treatment for Duchenne muscular dystrophy and these are still ongoing, it is possible that it will become available for treating that once the trails are complete, and the results analysed and if its declared effective which could still be two or three years away,

its like many things the BB'rs also keep their eyes open for anything that will help build muscle, if you do a search there were guys asking if anyone had heard about this two years ago on the BB forums,, i assume then that the small companies who sell various peptides to them looked into it and some now have it in stock,
its also patented,the designer signed an agreement with the company running the trails in Canada, so that being sold to BB'rs is probably produced in china, it seems to vary in price between about 70 dollars and 130 dollars a mlg

everything i have read about both ACE and Folli is that it builds muscle by blocking or decoying myostatin but it doesn't get rid of fat, after i saw the article yesterday about it being more effective with clenbutarol i looked at that ,and that's very effective at burning fat but it is illegal in the states, although it can be bought on the internet and appears to be quite cheap, do a search for that,,,but there can be side effects from that if you take more than about 2 tablets a day,it is also available in powder form,

Edited by pleb, 16 June 2013 - 08:26 AM.