25 replies to this topic

[mentatpsi]

First off let me introduce myself since i'm relatively new here, my name is Shay, my current area of interest when it comes to nootropics is mainly to find a solution to my ADHD (inattentive) away from the convential psychostimulants since i fear that though they provide great ambition and intelligence in the present and might grant me great career oppurtunities, in the future i'll have to worry about a multitude of problems that it will create (from possible adrenal fatigue to the result of malnutrtion, etc etc), so i set my sights on convential nootropics alongside herbs not too long ago to get the desired effects. I could go on for awhile on to the history of how i got to this point but i will not delude myself to believe that many will read further lol and may miss out on the interesting part of this post.

As of this moment i am experimenting with a form of technology produced by the company Centerpointe (Holosync should sound more familiar), i know one to have spoken about it before in this forum, but i'm not sure how many of you are aware of it. The first thing i tried from them was their awakening track, a CD that illicits lower frequency EEGs using two different frequencies in each ear, i'm not too knowledgable in the advanced mechanics of how it produces these EEGs (provided a link in the bottom) but i can assure you it does so [by my falling asleep during the later segment of the track when i first started (lower theta and delta waves)]. The Cd itself is pretty expensive, but based on what it can give you and considering 1.) it's permanent 2.) Neurofeedback is much more expensive, i would recommend it to those willing to try new things (http://www.centerpointe.com/). It sounds and looks like a hoax, especially all those videos with people proclaiming the great effects of the CD, kind of like the infomercials you see late at night, but it's pretty legit and based on old technology, though i would recommend more research since skepticism is always healthy. It is not this Cd that i'm going to talk about but an optional and relatively cheap cd, no different than a month supply of some of the nootropics out there, a program called Mind Stim, which is supposed to illicit higher frequency EEGs rather than lower, i have only just began the program (i should state it's only one CD), and for those interested will post more on my subjective experience alongside some objective, I could also make list of my experiences with the awakening prologue CD. Some of the effects that the program is said to bring out (as stated inside the cd cover) are:

- Heightened creativity and mental capacity, improved memory, concentration and learning ability. Enhanced mental stamina.
- Easier, more efficent sleep. Sleeping time shortened by up to 3 hours a night
- New vitality and sense of well being.
- Obliteration of tiredness and fatigue.
- Deep relaxation and relief of anxiety, with consequent healing of stress-related disorders such as high blood pressure, hypertension, digestive problems.
- Helps with dyslexia, hyperactivity, ADD, and behavior problems in children.
- Weight loss.

Now the only problem with attaining this CD is i'm uncertain of whether you need to purchase the Awakening prologue before being able to get this, I tried looking for a link to this software from within the site outside of the participant area (which requires a login and password) but couldn't find any way, i certainly hope that there's a way to purchase it without having to get the previous. Either or give it a look. For those wanting to do more research here's a couple links:

The theoritical side Mind Stim is based off of
http://en.wikipedia..../Alfred_Tomatis

The Technology behind Centerpointe
http://en.wikipedia..../Binaural_beats

Main Web site
http://www.centerpointe.com

Anyways i hope the information i provided is useful. Best of luck.

[boily]

Hello, I'm not sure about the holosync mindstim track, although from its description I certainly would try it. I purchased the Awakening Prologue about 4 months ago, and have listened/meditated with it almost everyday since. It is certainly living up to all its claims so far in my experience. Highly reccomended, also for the antiaging potential.....

Quote from centerpointe website:

Here's more exciting news:
Recent research performed by Dr. Vincent Giampapa, M.D., a prominent anti-aging researcher and past-president of the American Board of Anti-Aging Medicine, revealed that Holosync technology dramatically affects production of three important hormones related to increased longevity, stress, and enhanced well-being: cortisol, DHEA, and melatonin.

Cortisol is a hormone naturally produced by the adrenal glands. According to Dr. Giampapa, cortisol is the major age-accelerating hormone. It also interferes with learning and memory and is, in general, bad news for your health and your well-being.

Cortisol is the "stress hormone," and the more of it you have, the more stressed you feel...the more susceptible to disease you are and the faster you age!

Another hormone, DHEA, is also produced by your adrenal glands. DHEA is a precursor, or source ingredient, to virtually every hormone your body needs. DHEA level is a key determinant of physiological age and resistance to disease. When levels are low, you're more susceptible to aging and disease; when they're high, the body is at its peak—vibrant, healthy, and able to combat disease effectively.

DHEA acts as a buffer against stress-related hormones (such as cortisol), which is why as you get older and make less DHEA you are more susceptible to stress and disease.



How important is DHEA?
A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine (December 11, 1986) found that a 100 microgram per deciliter increase in DHEA blood levels corresponded with a 48% reduction in mortality due to cardiovascular disease—and a 36% reduction in mortality for any reason!

DHEA is very important!

The third hormone we tested was melatonin. Melatonin, everyone knows, is a hormone that helps to create restful sleep. We make less of it as we age, and since during sleep many important rejuvenating substances are created in the brain, the inability to sleep soundly can dramatically decrease the quality of your life and greatly accelerate the aging process. New research also reveals that it is a powerful antioxidant. In fact, it is even more powerful than Vitamin E.

So how does Holosync audio technology affect levels of these three substances having so much affect on the quality (and length) of your life? In a before and after study of 19 people using Holosync audio technology the following changes were noted in levels of DHEA, cortisol, and melatonin:

» In just three days, over 68% had increases in DHEA levels, with an average increase of 43.77%. Several people had increases of 50, 60, even 90%.
» Cortisol, on the other hand, was down an average of 46.47%, with positive changes in 68% of the people, and with several people having decreases of 70 or 80%.
» Melatonin levels increased an average of 97.77%, with positive changes happening in over 73% of the people. Many had improvements of 100, 200, even 300%.


What does this mean? It means that listening to CDs containing Holosync technology not only dramatically lowers stress by regulating the biochemical source of stress, it also means that Holosync slows the aging process and...

...increases both well-being and longevity!
By the way, these research subjects were listening to the exact same soundtracks you'll be listening to in the Centerpointe program

istening produces:

[mentatpsi]

What would you say was your subjective experience of holosync after 4 months? i myself right afterwards felt an increase in perception and a much more relaxed feeling, which seemed to last about 30 minutes to an hour. Also interesting experiences during the listening and sometimes a bit too intense during the later parts of the first track. I didn't know about all the medical research behind the technology, thanks for posting it.

[boily]

What would you say was your subjective experience of holosync after 4 months?

Definately less stress, ability to resist overwhelm. A greater feeling of well being. Getting more done. Awareness of what not to say before it pops out of your mouth. And other stuff...... Also a bit of upheavel, not too intense.

All subjective things, though I'm very inclined to continue with the programme. I plan to order the next level before the end of the year

[tarbtl]

Holosync is a complete and utter scam. It has VERY little credible research to back any of it's claims.

I have two reasons for saying the above with complete and utter confidence;
1) I have been an audio engineer for over 5 years now and have studied their 'technology" extesnively.
2) A friend of mine entered a legal feud with Bill Harris, the CEO of centerpointe a few years ago. He is an utter disgrace to the human race.

Don't bother with holosync. Trust me. I can expand on this further if needed.

[mentatpsi]

It would be great with such a statement to supplement it with research negating his claims. My subjective experience with it has been quite relaxing, and i do feel alterations within certain aspects of cognitions right afterwards, which might just be related to getting a nap (holosync) mid day. Thanks ahead of time lol.

[rebuild101]

Holosync is a complete and utter scam. It has VERY little credible research to back any of it's claims.

I have two reasons for saying the above with complete and utter confidence;
1) I have been an audio engineer for over 5 years now and have studied  their 'technology" extesnively.
2) A friend of mine entered a legal feud with Bill Harris, the CEO of centerpointe a few years ago. He is an utter disgrace to the human race.

Don't bother with holosync. Trust me. I can expand on this further if needed.

If you could go on, that would be great (especially if you can provide outside links/references -- no problem, if not tho).

Also, if I'm not mistaken, this "technology" sounds like that Brain Wave Generator program. Would any of you agree? Supposedly, the BWG program uses binaural beats (which do exist) to coax the brain into different wave patterns such as alpha or beta. I'd be interested to hear from anyone else that's played with this. For me personally, I found some tracks seemed to relax me, but then again, so does all white noise.

My final experience with the BWG was rather frightening. Although it could have been psychosomatic or due to something else, I highly doubt it. Anyway, I fell asleep one night listening to a BWG track and woke the next morning with dizziness that persisted for at least two hours. Haven't dared touch it since then.

[mentatpsi]

Rebuild101, what EEG pattern were you trying to illicit? In accordance with what the Holosync program says, it does bring out unresolved issues in an attempt to alter perspective, but the pattern it tries to illicit is a movement from Alpha to Delta, the interval at which it takes to go from alpha to delta is maybe 20 to 25 minutes, in total the first track is 30 minutes. The second part of it i believe is mainly Delta, probably deep and also lasts for 30 minutes. Though psychosomatic would make some sense in explaining the dizziness, it would make more sense that the eegs that the music was illiciting was out of touch with the natural sleep rhythm, thereby your sleep wouldn't be restorative, i'm working out of assumption though.

I personally, after reading certain posts, go towards Neuro-Programmer 2, once funds come in i'll probably purchase it. It uses the same technology and i'm sure BWG uses the same technology.

[Jacovis]

Rebuild101, what EEG pattern were you trying to illicit? In accordance with what the Holosync program says, it does bring out unresolved issues in an attempt to alter perspective, but the pattern it tries to illicit is a movement from Alpha to Delta, the interval at which it takes to go from alpha to delta is maybe 20 to 25 minutes, in total the first track is 30 minutes. The second part of it i believe is mainly Delta, probably deep and also lasts for 30 minutes. Though psychosomatic would make some sense in explaining the dizziness, it would make more sense that the eegs that the music was illiciting was out of touch with the natural sleep rhythm, thereby your sleep wouldn't be restorative, i'm working out of assumption though.

I personally, after reading certain posts, go towards Neuro-Programmer 2, once funds come in i'll probably purchase it. It uses the same technology and i'm sure BWG uses the same technology.

mysticpsi I know nothing beats the power of Adderall for you but can you please let us know what Holosync and the Neuro-Programmer did for your ADHD (inattentive type):
- did you get improved focus/concentration/attention span at all while you were using them?
- did you feel your stress levels reduce?
- did you get more things done when using them and any other improvements?
- how long for and how often did you use each product (did you use them often enough)?

Thanks in advance,
Visionary.

[mentatpsi]

Rebuild101, what EEG pattern were you trying to illicit? In accordance with what the Holosync program says, it does bring out unresolved issues in an attempt to alter perspective, but the pattern it tries to illicit is a movement from Alpha to Delta, the interval at which it takes to go from alpha to delta is maybe 20 to 25 minutes, in total the first track is 30 minutes. The second part of it i believe is mainly Delta, probably deep and also lasts for 30 minutes. Though psychosomatic would make some sense in explaining the dizziness, it would make more sense that the eegs that the music was illiciting was out of touch with the natural sleep rhythm, thereby your sleep wouldn't be restorative, i'm working out of assumption though.

I personally, after reading certain posts, go towards Neuro-Programmer 2, once funds come in i'll probably purchase it. It uses the same technology and i'm sure BWG uses the same technology.

mysticpsi I know nothing beats the power of Adderall for you but can you please let us know what Holosync and the Neuro-Programmer did for your ADHD (inattentive type):
- did you get improved focus/concentration/attention span at all while you were using them?
- did you feel your stress levels reduce?
- did you get more things done when using them and any other improvements?
- how long for and how often did you use each product (did you use them often enough)?

Thanks in advance,
Visionary.

Sorry it took me awhile to post... i hadn't noticed the update...

Holosync
i had a lot of great changes that were due primarily to constant meditation, healthy diet, and an optimistic view on life. Holosync provided me with a gateway to meditation and gave me the patience to do it. Calm concentration also seemed to go up, but there was always a limit to the progress... and i believe a lot of it is attributed to how much you believe it will work for you. My overall stress levels were decreasing every day with this method of cultivating awareness... daily holosync isn't necessary but if you need a boost start it does help. (1 month + used)

The Mind Stim i didn't do enough to see if it had any real effects, so i can't rate it.

Neuro-Programmer
not that great of a program unless you know how to use it, it is possible that the negative effect resulted from my abrupt stop of the nootropic blend (but it would have stopped since now) i had seen the most negative changes come after Neuro-Programmer. Let me go over its pros and cons... (3 weeks +)

Pros
====
In the area of information retaining i can say that it had increased it a great deal... i had began being able to play songs on the piano that before i did not have the memory capacity to play. The amount of information i could hold in my head at once was also increased a great deal...

Cons
====
it reduced dramatically (and to this day) the effects of coffee on my mind. Where before it was sufficient to give me a great boost in motivation and lucidity, i find its effects now nothing but a ripple who's intensity seems to change too much to rely on as a study aid.
I have a general brain fog throughout the day that i can't really stop since what will stop it is some daily meditation which i don't feel i have time for...

This in the end is why i ended up turning to Adderall... i wasn't sure how to repair the damage and didn't have the time.

So be wary of Neuro Programmer, if you intend to use it the most intelligent thing to do would be to use it for relaxation, the higher frequency EEGs are not always beneficial. Holosync is pretty nice, but be forwarned they will not stop bothering you... they constantly send me mail and email for their friend's products and try to get you to buy everything. Some of the products are interesting such as speed reading... but there's enough self help books in this world as is. Their methods are close to spam, and the price of Holosync is outrageous. The best route is to try to get into meditation, you can't mess up with mental discipline and reading since you're exercising what you normally use.

[mentatpsi]

This is in relation to the Mind Stim cd which is based on the Tomatis method. This is in no relation to holosync though the product is sold by the same company.
I just felt like reporting this. I found it on Wikipedia:

Tomatis reported in his autobiography [6] that he regretted not providing scientific colleagues with more statistical evidence for his work along with his many publications. But he claimed that the benefits of his methods are difficult to measure.

The theory of the method was investigated in 1979 by Gomez for a masters thesis with thesis advisor Tomkiewicz at INSERM [7] and published a few years later[8]. The summary (translated) states: "We show how the scientific and ideological presuppositions which underlie his conception of psychopathology, based on intuition and magic thought, cannot constitute a coherent theoretical model."

Studies by John Kershner [9][10] conclude that there is a lack of support for the educational efficacy of the Tomatis Listening Training Program (LTP) for learning disabled children. This 2 year study was limited to group of 26 students and used an auditory placebo similar to the LTP program. Tim Gilmor's meta-analysis, covering four smaller studies of the Tomatis method, including Kershner's work, found that "Positive effects sizes were found for each of the five behavioral domains analyzed" [11].

The status of research was evaluated in an article by Jill Lawton[12]. She stated "There were also not many objective test results available. Most studies were either not scientific, as in the case of Mrs. Flores' testimonial or the story of the monastery, or taken by centers that were probably trying to 'sell' the program."

A study was undertaken by the University of California on autistic children using the Tomatis sound therapy, its findings were published in 2007. The method used was randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover design. The study showed that there was improvement in the children, however none of it related to the treatment. The children that were given the placebo showed a higher percentage of improvement over those given the Tomatis treatment. The study concluded there was no improvement in language using the Tomatis Method.

Edited by mentatpsi, 21 August 2009 - 09:02 PM.

[The Likud Is Behind It]

I used Holosync until Purification Level 1. Now I use Neuro-Programmer 2 (http://www.transpare...ts/np/index.php) and create my own custom levels with lower carrier frequencies.

I don't care what people say about it. If nothing else, it helps me keep a clear mind as I meditate for an hour a day. Meditation alone improves my quality of life, no matter what any study says. I also get a pronounced euphoria every time I drop down to a lower carrier frequency. It feels REALLY REALLY GOOD for a little while, then the effect wears off. I take that as a signal that my mind is somehow adapting each time I drop the carrier frequency. I trust the literature that says my mind continues to make adaptations even though the subjective euphoria has worn off. I also have an unsupported belief that these adaptations are somehow positive. I shy away from making any broad claims about a transformed life, but I do think I'm generally more optimistic, less depressed, more productive, less shy, fewer anxieties, etc. The problem is that I have to compare my daily life now to that of a few years ago, and it's just so hard to remember exactly how I subjectively experienced the world. I used to be a much more negative person in general, that's for sure.

Edit: Another thing that makes me trust that the technology is effective and positive is that I definitely experienced a lot of emotional upheaval. I read Bill Harris's book and all of the support letters. I know I'm supposed to trust that an hour a day over time is effective and that I shouldn't rush it. Despite this, I listened for a minimum of two hours a day, often four or more through headphones as I went about a normal life. I went through the levels much faster than normal. In this time, I experienced A LOT of emotional upheaval. Every time I end up feeling consumed by these old emotions, I ultimately resolve them in a positive way. It's like forced self-therapy. And the fact that it forces these lingering issues to the forefront of awareness is also undeniable. I also think that the mindsets that Bill Harris teaches, such as the nine principles, are effective ways of dealing with these newly relevant old issues. I stopped buying Holosync products because I've gotten as much out of the company as I can. If I were new to it, I would still recommend buying the Awakening Prologue set of discs, reading the book, reading the support letters as you confront new experiences, and listening to the free lectures he sends you with the purchase. You ultimately get much more than the Awakening Prologue. In my experience, the supplemental materials are critical to understanding and getting as much out of the experience as possible. I would have been somewhat lost trying to understand the confusing new experiences without the support materials. It's worthwhile. In fact, I was introduced to Holosync through a file sharing forum, and was a daily user long before I decided to shell out money for the levels out of a guilty conscience. On my own I had definitely misinterpreted some of the experiences. The only thing that isn't worthwhile is purchasing tracks with lower and lower carrier frequencies and affirmations when you can buy software to do the exact same thing.

Edited by bmud, 21 November 2009 - 11:44 PM.

[jenny]

First off let me introduce myself since i'm relatively new here, my name is Shay, my current area of interest when it comes to nootropics is mainly to find a solution to my ADHD (inattentive) away from the convential psychostimulants since i fear that though they provide great ambition and intelligence in the present and might grant me great career oppurtunities, in the future i'll have to worry about a multitude of problems that it will create (from possible adrenal fatigue to the result of malnutrtion, etc etc), so i set my sights on convential nootropics alongside herbs not too long ago to get the desired effects. I could go on for awhile on to the history of how i got to this point but i will not delude myself to believe that many will read further lol and may miss out on the interesting part of this post.

As of this moment i am experimenting with a form of technology produced by the company Centerpointe (Holosync should sound more familiar), i know one to have spoken about it before in this forum, but i'm not sure how many of you are aware of it. The first thing i tried from them was their awakening track, a CD that illicits lower frequency EEGs using two different frequencies in each ear, i'm not too knowledgable in the advanced mechanics of how it produces these EEGs (provided a link in the bottom) but i can assure you it does so [by my falling asleep during the later segment of the track when i first started (lower theta and delta waves)]. The Cd itself is pretty expensive, but based on what it can give you and considering 1.) it's permanent 2.) Neurofeedback is much more expensive, i would recommend it to those willing to try new things (http://www.centerpointe.com/). It sounds and looks like a hoax, especially all those videos with people proclaiming the great effects of the CD, kind of like the infomercials you see late at night, but it's pretty legit and based on old technology, though i would recommend more research since skepticism is always healthy. It is not this Cd that i'm going to talk about but an optional and relatively cheap cd, no different than a month supply of some of the nootropics out there, a program called Mind Stim, which is supposed to illicit higher frequency EEGs rather than lower, i have only just began the program (i should state it's only one CD), and for those interested will post more on my subjective experience alongside some objective, I could also make list of my experiences with the awakening prologue CD. Some of the effects that the program is said to bring out (as stated inside the cd cover) are:

- Heightened creativity and mental capacity, improved memory, concentration and learning ability. Enhanced mental stamina.
- Easier, more efficent sleep. Sleeping time shortened by up to 3 hours a night
- New vitality and sense of well being.
- Obliteration of tiredness and fatigue.
- Deep relaxation and relief of anxiety, with consequent healing of stress-related disorders such as high blood pressure, hypertension, digestive problems.
- Helps with dyslexia, hyperactivity, ADD, and behavior problems in children.
- Weight loss.

Now the only problem with attaining this CD is i'm uncertain of whether you need to purchase the Awakening prologue before being able to get this, I tried looking for a link to this software from within the site outside of the participant area (which requires a login and password) but couldn't find any way, i certainly hope that there's a way to purchase it without having to get the previous. Either or give it a look. For those wanting to do more research here's a couple links:

The theoritical side Mind Stim is based off of
http://en.wikipedia..../Alfred_Tomatis

The Technology behind Centerpointe
http://en.wikipedia..../Binaural_beats

Main Web site
http://www.centerpointe.com

Anyways i hope the information i provided is useful. Best of luck.

[jenny]

Holosync has ruined my life. After listening to the CDs I have experience Hell. I don't know what else to say but I have to worn people that it will mess up your brain wave patterns.

I have been living each day in despair and depression. But I am over it now that I stopped listen to it. Do not get it. It is a money making scam and they want to brain wash you and take your money. Why else would they charge one thousand and two thousand, plus dollars for one little CD. Come on folks. They are stealing your money and screwing you over. Don't. give in to the BS responses trying to make people look bad that have purchased the CD. Its a load of crap. Please, Believe me.

DO not buy the center point institute CDs. They are stealing your money and laughing at you. Believe me. OR be a dop and spend over one thousand dollars on a little CD. Had. Your lose.

Good luck.

[magnelectro]

I have tried a couple levels of the holosync program and experienced generally positive results--nothing profound.
The Hemi-Sync Gateway Experience, on the other hand, is quite profound.

[jonsax]

I've tried holosync with mild success, it is relaxing for sure. But so is the sound of falling rain, so I'm not sure what all the hype is about. There's a new program I saw on ebay a while back that I recently tried, it's called SoundMind Meditation. They use binaural beats similar to holosync but they are actually teaching meditation. The voice is VERY soothing and actually inspires you to want to learn more. I HIGHLY recommend it! It's definitely the real McCoy, no gimmicks, and it works exactly as claimed on their website. Check it out for yourself they have free listing blurbs on their site. www.soundmindmeditation.com

Namaste

[M4Y0U]

For a starter I would really go with Hemi-Sync Gateway Experience. They introduce you to the technology and train you so you use it at best and you kind of level up thru the whole process. Personally I haven't finished it but i tried many other binaural beats and this one is the one to start with.

Here's who are behind this project they are quite experienced on the subject.

http://www.monroeinstitute.org/

Best regards,
M4

[Logan]

Holosync has ruined my life. After listening to the CDs I have experience Hell. I don't know what else to say but I have to worn people that it will mess up your brain wave patterns.

I have been living each day in despair and depression. But I am over it now that I stopped listen to it. Do not get it. It is a money making scam and they want to brain wash you and take your money. Why else would they charge one thousand and two thousand, plus dollars for one little CD. Come on folks. They are stealing your money and screwing you over. Don't. give in to the BS responses trying to make people look bad that have purchased the CD. Its a load of crap. Please, Believe me.

DO not buy the center point institute CDs. They are stealing your money and laughing at you. Believe me. OR be a dop and spend over one thousand dollars on a little CD. Had. Your lose.

Good luck.

Maybe listening to the CD opened up your mind that brought you more in touch with the sadness and depression that has always been inside you, similar to how therapy may eventually do this. Just a thought.

[M4Y0U]

Holosync has ruined my life. After listening to the CDs I have experience Hell. I don't know what else to say but I have to worn people that it will mess up your brain wave patterns.

I have been living each day in despair and depression. But I am over it now that I stopped listen to it. Do not get it. It is a money making scam and they want to brain wash you and take your money. Why else would they charge one thousand and two thousand, plus dollars for one little CD. Come on folks. They are stealing your money and screwing you over. Don't. give in to the BS responses trying to make people look bad that have purchased the CD. Its a load of crap. Please, Believe me.

DO not buy the center point institute CDs. They are stealing your money and laughing at you. Believe me. OR be a dop and spend over one thousand dollars on a little CD. Had. Your lose.

Good luck.

Maybe listening to the CD opened up your mind that brought you more in touch with the sadness and depression that has always been inside you, similar to how therapy may eventually do this. Just a thought.

Fail to make a point. We talking about something else sorry... I went thru psy and neuro behavioral science and its not covered like most topics related to the ''singularity''
Jus a thought.

[mentatpsi]

In regards to the claim of the Holosync Dive & Immersion, I will admit I don't think they're that great. Personally last time I used them it seemed to reduce my energy levels though the effects are sporadic. I personally would prefer a stimulant like session rather than a relaxing session.

Holosync Mind stim is different. First it's a one time fee of 30 or 39 dollars for the cd. There are no additional fees. I'm not sure if one has to purchase at least one holosync to gain access to it but if not it's not that poor an idea to try out. Secondly, it focuses on illiciting stimulatory eegs rather the inhibitory eegs that holosync does.

In regard to morganator's comment about depression and sadness, though this is possible, it's preferable a technology without a clinical practitioner by your side not do this. I would agree, they take a lot of money from you and a software like Neuro Programmer can do the same for cheaper at a one time fee. Further, it is possible that illiciting those slower brainwave pattern can yield depression. In NeuroProgrammer, there's one session called Depression Reduction which focuses on increasing the activities on the left hemisphere and decreasing that of the right. The concept is that in depression people suffer from slower EEGs (also that the left hemisphere is the logical hemisphere - also called the serial computer by some). Further, for holosync to tell you this is natural without accepting that their entrainment might not be for everyone should state something.

[yowza]

Wow.

3 years and still posting on this thread. That's commitment.

All I'll say is that a clear distinguishment should be made in regards to "entrainment" vs. "nuerofeedback". Entrainment based protocols, no matter how good, are typically looked down upon by most nuerofeedback practitioners as it's not customized to fit an individual.

My advice:
You have ADD then go get a QEEG done. This is the true starting point not some crappy program

[mentatpsi]

Wow.

3 years and still posting on this thread. That's commitment.

All I'll say is that a clear distinguishment should be made in regards to "entrainment" vs. "nuerofeedback". Entrainment based protocols, no matter how good, are typically looked down upon by most nuerofeedback practitioners as it's not customized to fit an individual.

My advice:
You have ADD then go get a QEEG done. This is the true starting point not some crappy program

Indeed, the word neurofeedback is often times inappropriately used in demonstrating effectiveness of entrainment (by using neurofeedback research articles). Neurofeedback is creating a feedback mechanism for neurological processes and manipulating them via will and direct knowledge. Entrainment won't come close to that effectiveness. Currently taking Psychology of Consciousness, however, has led me to wonder how accurate the technology is. There is a limit to EEG readings as to the source of the signal from what I heard. I'm sure overtime it has and will get better, but a lot of inferences are made as to the source.

Here's a link from my blog:
Ripples from the Botanical Garden - Neurofeedback

[yowza]

Neurofeedback is creating a feedback mechanism for neurological processes and manipulating them via will and direct knowledge

I've seen the basic brainmaster 2-channel system demonstrated and tried it out myself a few times. There were a number of different games. These games (at least the ones I saw) weren't controlled directly by you. They weren't like a video game. Most of these processes you don't really consciously control; for example in one game that I saw demonstrated:

There were 3 bars. The one to the left goes up and down based on the lower waves (delta) while the one to the right goes up and down based on excessively high waves (high beta) while the one in the middle is what you look at and sort of passively cheer for the bar to remain at a certain level (thus resulting in the 2 bars to the right and the left to suppress)... These bars move and automatically adjust to make things at just the right difficulty based on the EEG readings from the 2 electrode placements to sort of act like an automatic weight train for the brain over the certain area where you place the electrodes. That's my experience with nuerofeedback

Have you had a QEEG yet?

Edited by yowza, 03 April 2010 - 01:27 AM.

[mentatpsi]

Neurofeedback is creating a feedback mechanism for neurological processes and manipulating them via will and direct knowledge

I've seen the basic brainmaster 2-channel system demonstrated and tried it out myself a few times. There were a number of different games. These games (at least the ones I saw) weren't controlled directly by you. They weren't like a video game. Most of these processes you don't really consciously control; for example in one game that I saw demonstrated:

There were 3 bars. The one to the left goes up and down based on the lower waves (delta) while the one to the right goes up and down based on excessively high waves (high beta) while the one in the middle is what you look at and sort of passively cheer for the bar to remain at a certain level (thus resulting in the 2 bars to the right and the left to suppress)... These bars move and automatically adjust to make things at just the right difficulty based on the EEG readings from the 2 electrode placements to sort of act like an automatic weight train for the brain over the certain area where you place the electrodes. That's my experience with nuerofeedback

Have you had a QEEG yet?

I've had the 3 bars and altitude changes based on dominance of SMR, with High being SMR, Medium being Alpha, and Low being Theta if I recall correctly. I'm not sure if this was QEEG. However, any feedback mechanism which one finds ways of manipulating is directed by will power. The game choice might not be controlled by you, but the actual progress of the game should be. If it isn't, then it isn't Neurofeedback. There needs to be a mechanism by which one learns conditioning otherwise it's just fancy interface imo. So I'm kind of confused by when you said it's not controlled by you.

Is QEEG more to deal with interferences (possibly more accurate) and usually greater amount of sensors?

Edited by mentatpsi, 03 April 2010 - 09:47 PM.

[yowza]

Is QEEG more to deal with interferences (possibly more accurate) and usually greater amount of sensors?

The amount of sensors have nothing to do with how accurate a nuerofeedback protocol is. Besides, a QEEG isn't neurofeedback.

The electrode placements are placed all over the scalp to get an EEG reading. The reading from each electrode is placed onto an encephalograph (the raw EEG data), which is then fed through a computer software program that makes a brainmap. These brainmaps are then read by a specialist (usually a nuerofeedback practitioner) who forms a written report along with supplying you with colored images of your brain while in different states (eyes closed, eyes open staring at a fixed point, math, reading, drawing, listening). These aren't three dimensional images but are overhead pictures showing electrical activity along the cortical surface of the brain. It doesn't show deeper brain activity so much but correlations can be made; for instance (if specially requested) a "loretta" image may be ordered besides just the brainmaps churned out in a typical QEEG report. This sort of testing can be used to look at your individualized brain activity patterns and tell you of any abnormalities (neurofeedback or other therapeutic protocols can be designed based off this data if necessary).

I'd suggest using the internet to find all the neurofeedback practitioners in your area. To narrow down which one to go to, simply call up each one and ask if they do QEEG's or not. If they do, to further narrow it down, one can ask about loretta images too; however, if they offer QEEG but not loretta, it's still usually possible to transfer the electronic data to someone who does (although I'd ask the specific provider beforehand just to make sure).

Edited by yowza, 05 April 2010 - 03:52 PM.

[yowza]

Well?...

What do you guys think?