37 replies to this topic

[mentatpsi]

I've taken it every now and then, and though observing and reading about a myriad of benefits, there are still those health risks that sits there in the back of my mind that prevents me from taking it long term: Fibrosis

"Pleural and peritoneal fibrosis have been reported with prolonged daily use. Cardiac valvular fibrosis has also been associated with ergot alkaloids."
http://www.umm.edu/a...ates-048700.htm

"Fibrosis is the formation or development of excess fibrous connective tissue in an organ or tissue as a reparative or reactive process, as opposed to a formation of fibrous tissue as a normal constituent of an organ or tissue."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrosis

Diffuse Pleural Fibrosis: "This is a thickening of the outer layer of either one or both lungs. It may occur after benign pleural effusion or develop without the accumulation of fluid.
Symptoms are usually gradually increasing breathlessness and the sensation of tightness in the chest. This is due to the lungs and chest wall not expanding fully and may become disabling.
There is no effective treatment although the prognosis is usually quite good. The patient may remain moderately breathless on exertion for many years." http://www.aduk.org....al_fibrosis.php

I couldn't find a direct definition of peritoneal fibrosis so...

Peritoneum - "In higher vertebrates, the peritoneum is the serous membrane that forms the lining of the abdominal cavity - it covers most of the intra-abdominal organs. It is composed of a layer of mesothelium supported by a thin layer of connective tissue." http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Peritoneal

Also there's the building of plaque within one of the arteries in the heart if i'm not mistaken.


I have noticed a lot of people taking it, not just on this forum, but upon inspection of Biogenesis-antiaging.com it is the 2nd top seller on there (Piracetam being the first). I wonder if the cognitive enhancements subjectively outweigh the risks for the people taking it, or if there's a lack of awareness of given consequence. Any comments?

The only problem i see is there are no other Dopamine Receptor site Agonist as effective as this, so i'm left with Yerba mate to act as a mild MAO inhibitor alongside Ginseng and Caffeine.

Edited by mysticpsi, 28 November 2007 - 10:48 AM.

[flatline]

Interesting. What's your current opinion of Hydergine?

[luv2increase]

I personally don't think that hydergine is worth it. I've read a lot of anecdotal reports on forums throughout the internet, and most were either neutral if not negative in effects. Due to this and the possible negative aspects it exerts on one's health, I don't take it. It doesn't pass the risk vs reward ratio for me.



edit: You would be better off taking ginkgo. If you really want to increase cerebral blood flow, you would partake in an exercise program. Nothing does it better than exercise! If fact, I think physical activity is better than any nootropic (as of right now) known to man.

Edited by luv2increase, 22 August 2008 - 05:24 PM.

[Advanc3d]

I personally don't think that hydergine is worth it. I've read a lot of anecdotal reports on forums throughout the internet, and most were either neutral if not negative in effects. Due to this and the possible negative aspects it exerts on one's health, I don't take it. It doesn't pass the risk vs reward ratio for me.



edit: You would be better off taking ginkgo. If you really want to increase cerebral blood flow, you would partake in an exercise program. Nothing does it better than exercise! If fact, I think physical activity is better than any nootropic (as of right now) known to man.

that is very true
i feel happy, motivated and focused when i excerise daily
if i dont exercise for a week i get depressed and experince lethargy

[Ben]

If you really want to increase cerebral blood flow, you would partake in an exercise program. Nothing does it better than exercise! If fact, I think physical activity is better than any nootropic (as of right now) known to man.

Hear hear!

Never can I think more clearly than when I've just stepped out of the pool after a brisk 3k.

[WuShu]

I've taken it every now and then, and though observing and reading about a myriad of benefits, there are still those health risks that sits there in the back of my mind that prevents me from taking it long term: Fibrosis

"Pleural and peritoneal fibrosis have been reported with prolonged daily use. Cardiac valvular fibrosis has also been associated with ergot alkaloids."
http://www.umm.edu/a...ates-048700.htm

"Fibrosis is the formation or development of excess fibrous connective tissue in an organ or tissue as a reparative or reactive process, as opposed to a formation of fibrous tissue as a normal constituent of an organ or tissue."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrosis

Diffuse Pleural Fibrosis: "This is a thickening of the outer layer of either one or both lungs. It may occur after benign pleural effusion or develop without the accumulation of fluid.
Symptoms are usually gradually increasing breathlessness and the sensation of tightness in the chest. This is due to the lungs and chest wall not expanding fully and may become disabling.
There is no effective treatment although the prognosis is usually quite good. The patient may remain moderately breathless on exertion for many years." http://www.aduk.org....al_fibrosis.php

I couldn't find a direct definition of peritoneal fibrosis so...

Peritoneum - "In higher vertebrates, the peritoneum is the serous membrane that forms the lining of the abdominal cavity - it covers most of the intra-abdominal organs. It is composed of a layer of mesothelium supported by a thin layer of connective tissue." http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Peritoneal

Also there's the building of plaque within one of the arteries in the heart if i'm not mistaken.


I have noticed a lot of people taking it, not just on this forum, but upon inspection of Biogenesis-antiaging.com it is the 2nd top seller on there (Piracetam being the first). I wonder if the cognitive enhancements subjectively outweigh the risks for the people taking it, or if there's a lack of awareness of given consequence. Any comments?

The only problem i see is there are no other Dopamine Receptor site Agonist as effective as this, so i'm left with Yerba mate to act as a mild MAO inhibitor alongside Ginseng and Caffeine.

Of the references you cite, there is one that is medical, and it is from the U of Md. Since medical uses of hydergine have been limited to people who are in pretty bad shape to begin with, these are largely anecdotal. Still, if there have been multiple reports in the literature about general fibrosis as a long term side effect, i'd like to hear from anybody who can cite them. I took Hydergine 9mg. q.d. for years and found of all the nootropics, it agreed the best with me.

[WuShu]

I personally don't think that hydergine is worth it. I've read a lot of anecdotal reports on forums throughout the internet, and most were either neutral if not negative in effects. Due to this and the possible negative aspects it exerts on one's health, I don't take it. It doesn't pass the risk vs reward ratio for me.



edit: You would be better off taking ginkgo. If you really want to increase cerebral blood flow, you would partake in an exercise program. Nothing does it better than exercise! If fact, I think physical activity is better than any nootropic (as of right now) known to man.

that is very true
i feel happy, motivated and focused when i excerise daily
if i dont exercise for a week i get depressed and experince lethargy

I have a rigorous excercise regimen and it does make me feel better but there's nothing quite like Hydergine. It was found some time back that it didn't increase carotid blood flow but appeared to do something to improve mitochondrial efficiency in brain neurons in processes like OXPHOS and the Krebs Cycle (maybe this was speculative. I noticed on my days off Hydergine did the same as excercise if i had to study large amounts of technical material for hours. This issue of generalized fibrosis sounds fairly recent, and mainly anecdotal

[mentatpsi]

WuShu, I know what you mean. The first citation though was the real piece of information, the rest of the links are just general information on what fibrosis was for those who weren't aware of it, me having been of those.

I found that one problem of hydergine was taking oneself to seriously. It seems to increase at times illusions of grandeur.

I don't think one can discredit the research simply based on the age groups within the sample data, though the argument makes sense. Regardless, I understand your point and perhaps given such an opinion it would be wise to further search out credible evidence. If you want when i have the time i can further search medical research that showed a correlation. In that manner we can see the pre existing conditions. Thanks for reading.

[kikai93]

I personally don't think that hydergine is worth it. I've read a lot of anecdotal reports on forums throughout the internet, and most were either neutral if not negative in effects. Due to this and the possible negative aspects it exerts on one's health, I don't take it. It doesn't pass the risk vs reward ratio for me.



edit: You would be better off taking ginkgo. If you really want to increase cerebral blood flow, you would partake in an exercise program. Nothing does it better than exercise! If fact, I think physical activity is better than any nootropic (as of right now) known to man.

Ah, but what about physical activity AND nootropics?

[rehabman28]

I personally don't think that hydergine is worth it. I've read a lot of anecdotal reports on forums throughout the internet, and most were either neutral if not negative in effects. Due to this and the possible negative aspects it exerts on one's health, I don't take it. It doesn't pass the risk vs reward ratio for me.



edit: You would be better off taking ginkgo. If you really want to increase cerebral blood flow, you would partake in an exercise program. Nothing does it better than exercise! If fact, I think physical activity is better than any nootropic (as of right now) known to man.

Ah, but what about physical activity AND nootropics?

For everyone here who HAS taken Hydergine, did you get a script from a doc? My doc wrote me a script for it at 6mg, but the cost at Costco was going to be over $400 for a one month supply!! I'm assuming you guys ordered it overseas?

[Phreak]

For everyone here who HAS taken Hydergine, did you get a script from a doc? My doc wrote me a script for it at 6mg, but the cost at Costco was going to be over $400 for a one month supply!! I'm assuming you guys ordered it overseas?

I didn't know Hydergine was prescribed at all...?

What would it be prescribed for?? Has anyone here actually been prescribed it, and if so - under what circumstance (and in what country)

It's apparently OTC in Belgium but I cannot remember where I read that. Erowid I think...

[sdxl]

It's apparently OTC in Belgium but I cannot remember where I read that. Erowid I think...

It is. See here for prices and notice it doesn't list it as an Rx, where it does for piracetam and others. According to that page it is used for vascular disorders.

[bgwithadd]

Why does everyone assume dopamine agonist = good? Hydergine really shows little or no benefit, plus is dangerous. Even piracetam has more to back it up.

[mentatpsi]

Why does everyone assume dopamine agonist = good? Hydergine really shows little or no benefit, plus is dangerous. Even piracetam has more to back it up.

I believe mainly because the substance allows for increased thought flows, plus it seems to have an opiate type effect as well as what can be defined as a boosting in confidence.

[rehabman28]

Why does everyone assume dopamine agonist = good? Hydergine really shows little or no benefit, plus is dangerous. Even piracetam has more to back it up.

I believe mainly because the substance allows for increased thought flows, plus it seems to have an opiate type effect as well as what can be defined as a boosting in confidence.

Everyone here from the States who has used it, did you get a script? Yes, it is prescribed for cognitive difficulties and in those with fibromyalgia/CFIDS. If you imported it without a script, was it difficult to get through customs?

[mentatpsi]

Why does everyone assume dopamine agonist = good? Hydergine really shows little or no benefit, plus is dangerous. Even piracetam has more to back it up.

I believe mainly because the substance allows for increased thought flows, plus it seems to have an opiate type effect as well as what can be defined as a boosting in confidence.

Everyone here from the States who has used it, did you get a script? Yes, it is prescribed for cognitive difficulties and in those with fibromyalgia/CFIDS. If you imported it without a script, was it difficult to get through customs?

Wasn't problematic importing. I can't imagine too many psychiatrist prescribing the medication though. Plus if the cost is around 400 dollars, i'd say it's more cost effective to merely have the medication imported.

[rehabman28]

Why does everyone assume dopamine agonist = good? Hydergine really shows little or no benefit, plus is dangerous. Even piracetam has more to back it up.

I believe mainly because the substance allows for increased thought flows, plus it seems to have an opiate type effect as well as what can be defined as a boosting in confidence.

Everyone here from the States who has used it, did you get a script? Yes, it is prescribed for cognitive difficulties and in those with fibromyalgia/CFIDS. If you imported it without a script, was it difficult to get through customs?

Wasn't problematic importing. I can't imagine too many psychiatrist prescribing the medication though. Plus if the cost is around 400 dollars, i'd say it's more cost effective to merely have the medication imported.

Do you mind sharing which site you ordered from? It wasn't a psychiatrist who prescribed it, he was/is an integrative medicine doctor who is open-minded.

[comradebillyboy]

Do you mind sharing which site you ordered from? It wasn't a psychiatrist who prescribed it, he was/is an integrative medicine doctor who is open-minded.

http://www.antiaging-systems.com/iasstore/.../hydergine.html 30 x 4.5mg tablets for $25 plus shipping.

Edited by chrono, 28 September 2010 - 09:13 AM.
trimmed quote

[StrangeAeons]

You can consider D3 agonists such as ropinirole and pramipexole. There was a forum going here and on Mind and Muscle with some hype over the stuff. I'm currently taking pramipexole, but it's a bit too early to report results; I was taking it a high dose until my prescription ran out and I'm still waiting for the stuff I got online. I'm not sure how its nootropic profile compares with hydergine, though; you have to give it a few weeks (with some unfortunate sides) before you get there.

[OpaqueMind]

I tried to buy hydergine from anti-aging systems but unfortunately they no longer deliver that specific chemical to the UK

Does anybody know of a cheap, reputable source that does?

[iago]

I tried to buy hydergine from anti-aging systems but unfortunately they no longer deliver that specific chemical to the UK

Does anybody know of a cheap, reputable source that does?

Quality Health has come up a lot on the forums: http://www.qhi.co.uk/ I haven't ordered from them personally.

Edit: I notice that they are "temporarily out of stock."

Edited by iago, 10 January 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[nito]

Just came across a company called cognititve health. Are they meant to be good? Would like to start buying from there as i have heard some negative stuff about cognitive nutrition.

[bushido]

Just came across a company called cognititve health. Are they meant to be good? Would like to start buying from there as i have heard some negative stuff about cognitive nutrition.

I bought 30 4.5 FAS from All Real Meds in mid Dec. 2010 www.allrealmeds.com $66. No Dramas. What was cool, though, was 2 weeks later in Bangkok I bought the same box for 1465 Baht($50USD) and it had the exact same handwritten price tag on it.

[unregistered_user]

Cognitive Health shipped my Piracetam quickly. I'm just not used to spending ~20.00 for only 100g when it used to get me 500g.

[Muhammad Saeed Paracha]

I didn't know Hydergine was prescribed at all...?

What would it be prescribed for?? Has anyone here actually been prescribed it, and if so - under what circumstance (and in what country)

It's apparently OTC in Belgium but I cannot remember where I read that. Erowid I think...

Yup i just got hydergine perscribed for some cognitive problem, i dont know the tchnical details but I am an A levels student, was having memory problems like i would repeat stories and questions in one day. forget events, conversations, faces etc. Came from an6 hour event, it was mindblowing event, told my brother that it was the best experience i have ever had. the only problem about it was that when my brother asked me did the speakers talk about? the only thing I remembered was they all encouraged entrepreneurship and didnt remember anything els stuff like that.

got prescribed in Pakistan. Doc said it wasnt a physical problem, but to be on the safe side inshould do x,y,z tests and referred me to a psychiatrist whom i have yet to pay visit to.

[neuropill]

A nice long term study on Hydergine.

Curr Med Res Opin. 1986;10(4):256-79.
Effects of long-term ergoloid mesylates ('Hydergine') administration in healthy pensioners: 5-year results.
Huber F, Koberle S, Prestele H, Spiegel R.

Five-year results are reported of a controlled long-term comparative study to assess the effects of ergoloid mesylates (1.5 mg 3-times daily) and
placebo on medical, psychological and electrophysiological variables. Initially, 148 healthy elderly volunteers of both sexes were included. Eightynine
subjects (48 on ergoloid mesylates and 41 on placebo) are still in the double-blind study; 39 subjects have left the trial for various reasons (6
deaths, 25 drop-outs due to disease, and 8 withdrawals) and 20 subjects are participating under 'open' conditions. Formal statistical comparison
of the two groups in terms of 10 medical and psychometric outcome variables did not produce significant differences. However, a number of
relevant findings and trends with regard to the effects of ergoloid mesylates were established: the drug was well tolerated objectively and subjectively;
subjective complaints such as frequent dizziness, cardiac symptoms and leg cramps were improved; there was less increase than on
placebo in the number of subjects with pathological ECG findings; there was less increase than on placebo in the number of subjects taking
digitalis; fewer subjects than in the placebo group had an increase in the number of major diagnoses; the decrease in some lipid fractions was
more pronounced than on placebo; and performance in some psychometric tests (WAIS Vocabulary, WAIS Performance) was better in the
ergoloid mesylates group. None of these findings, by itself, would be evidence of a dramatic effect of ergoloid mesylates on the participants in the
double-blind trial. Taken together, however, they fall into a pattern, suggesting that ergoloid mesylates was partly effective in maintaining
physical and mental health in these healthy elderly individuals. The finding of more disease-related and symptom-related drop-outs in the
placebo group (25 vs. 20 in the ergoloid mesylates group) supports this assumption. Furthermore, the fact that a number of subjects who had left
the double-blind trial for medical reasons improved on subsequent ergoloid mesylates administration may be seen as a further argument in
favour of a prophylactic effect of ergoloid mesylates on pathological concomitants of ageing.

[NeverSayDie]

I wonder how hydergine compares to ultra low-dose LSD in terms of nootropic effects? I have never personally experimented with LSD at any dose, but I have read in numerous places that an ultra low-dose (not sure what constitutes that) of LSD is probably the best nootropic one could find. Since hydergine and LSD are both essentially ergot derivatives, I wonder how they compare.

[NeverSayDie]

I think physical activity is better than any nootropic (as of right now) known to man.

I must respectfully disagree. If this were the case, then professional athletes would be the most advantaged in terms of enhanced cognition. Thus, they would be highly cerebral people but I just don't find this to be the case.

In terms of activities superior to nootropics, I would have to cite the routine engagment of the mind in increasingly challenging mental activites. This would include memory games (dual n-back), learning new languages, learning new instruments, logic puzzles, teaching oneself calculus, reading challenging material (abstract philosophy), etc.

This kind of activity is far more powerful than any pill, supplement, food, or exercise regimen. All of these things may certainly help (especially excercise for cerebral circulation)...but all are mere side dishes. Actively challenging your mind with skills is the main course.

[Heraclitean]

I wonder how hydergine compares to ultra low-dose LSD in terms of nootropic effects? I have never personally experimented with LSD at any dose, but I have read in numerous places that an ultra low-dose (not sure what constitutes that) of LSD is probably the best nootropic one could find. Since hydergine and LSD are both essentially ergot derivatives, I wonder how they compare.

Sorry to say that hydergine can't hold a candle to even almost homeopathic doses of LSD. If it did I think hydergine would probably be the best nootropic around, which is far from being the case.

[bugasman]

I believe mainly because the substance allows for increased thought flows, plus it seems to have an opiate type effect as well as what can be defined as a boosting in confidence.

Mentatpsi I know you are not active in the forum, but some day you can answer this:

Could elaborate more that "opiate type effect"? I found this paper on Pubmed and it seens that hydergine interacts with opiate receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3018811

Edited by bugasman, 20 March 2013 - 06:23 PM.