84 replies to this topic

[katzenjammer]

Okay, you'll have to bear with me on this one. Any and all thoughts are welcome.

Most nights I have nothing or 1 glass of wine. However, once in a while (say, twice a year) I end up drinking too much at a party. The odd thing about it is that the hangover actually feels good in terms of mood and focus. I can best describe it as a calm focus.

Normally, I'm either really "on" or, less rarely, not - if not, I have word recall problems, problems focusing, and yet I'm high strung. If I disagree with someone, my brain gets all bunched up and I can't sort out my thoughts. It's embarrassing. Even about topics that I know quite a bit about. I'm sort of unfocused and jittery at the same time. This is magnified in social situations.

Hangovers seem to get rid of all of that. They sedate me, yet it's as if a cloud is lifted. Now, I can speak fluidly. I can focus on any task. I have a calm and collected feel. My recall is extraordinary.

The question is, "why?"

Again, to repeat, I'm not advocating anyone or myself doing this.

However, the reason I'm asking is that it might provide a clue for how I can improve my clarity and focus on a daily basis?

I've read somewhere that shock treatment works by wiping out short term memory - perhaps this is why I feel so good the morning after too much drink?

The other theory I have is that alcohol is sleep disrupting - and thus mimics "wake therapy," where sudden sleep deprivation/waking up very early, resets circadian rhythms and briefly lifts depression.

I thought perhaps someone here might give me some insight on why all this might be so? Or, perhaps there are others who have experienced the same?

Love & kisses to all

Edited by katzenjammer, 29 November 2007 - 03:55 PM.

[ortcloud]

Have you tried fish oil or theanine or a good magnesium ? maybe picamilon too if those dont work.

[katzenjammer]

Have you tried fish oil or theanine or a good magnesium ? maybe picamilon too if those dont work.

Thanks ortcloud! I've been on fish oil for five years - it helps a lot, but I have to watch it or it can make me pretty manic. Theanine made me feel a little weird, but I'll give it another shot. Three tablespoons of cocoa per day should provide enough magnesium, no?

edit: Picamilon sounds interesting, maybe I'll give that a try...

Edited by katzenjammer, 29 November 2007 - 05:57 PM.

[purerealm]

there's another topic just like this one. i suspect it's dopamine, because it's been shown that ghb causes this through "dopamine rebound." The subjective effects of ghb and alcohol are quite similar

[katzenjammer]

there's another topic just like this one. i suspect it's dopamine, because it's been shown that ghb causes this through "dopamine rebound." The subjective effects of ghb and alcohol are quite similar

Alcohol causes an immediate dopamine response, no? Presumably the "rebound" effect would mean lower levels of dopamine the next morning and perhaps the remainder of that day? Or am I not understanding you correctly? Thanks so much for the response.

[niner]

Interesting observation, katzenjammer. Here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia entry for "hangover":

Another factor contributing to a hangover are the products from the breakdown of ethanol via liver enzymes. Ethanol is converted to acetaldehyde by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase, and then from acetaldehyde to acetic acid by the enzyme acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. Acetaldehyde (ethanal) is mildly toxic, contributing to hangover. These two reactions also require the conversion of NAD+ to NADH. With an excess of NADH, the lactate dehydrogenase reaction is driven to produce lactate from pyruvate (the end product of glycolysis) in order to regenerate NAD+ and sustain life. This diverts pyruvate from other pathways such as gluconeogenesis, thereby impairing the ability of the liver to supply glucose to tissues, especially the brain.

In alcohol metabolism, one molecule of ethanol (the primary active ingredient in alcoholic beverages) produces 2 molecules of NADH, utilizing Vitamin B12 as a coenzyme. Over-consumption of ethanol may cause vitamin B12 deficiency as well.

Could you be hyperglycemic most of the time, with the hangover normalizing your glucose? The cognitive effect of hyperglycemia usually only occur when it's fairly high, which you would probably already be aware of. ( http://PMID.us/17286234 )

I think acetaldehyde is a mild sedative. You mentioned sedation as one effect. Maybe there's an anxiolytic effect there. Have you ever taken any sort of anxiolytic agent, like valium? SSRIs often have anti-anxiety effects also.

Hangovers are pretty complex biochemical states...

[cmorera]

ive seen study showing NGF levels are 600% after high alcohol consumption, i noticed this before on paper and couoldn't explain it. There is a thread on M&M about this, from over a year ago.

I guess the explanation is the actual drinking of alcohol causes significant damage to dendrites, so this is an attempt at repairing. I would be confident to say the net effect is still negative from alcohol, even factoring in the 600% NGF afterwards.

[Infernity]

Ok HANGOVERS ARE BAD!, if you consider noots as mere drugs, then go for it, hangovers are fine noots.. you should drink one glass of red wine per day, not a whole bottle.

[katzenjammer]

Interesting observation, katzenjammer. Here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia entry for "hangover":

Another factor contributing to a hangover are the products from the breakdown of ethanol via liver enzymes. Ethanol is converted to acetaldehyde by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase, and then from acetaldehyde to acetic acid by the enzyme acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. Acetaldehyde (ethanal) is mildly toxic, contributing to hangover. These two reactions also require the conversion of NAD+ to NADH. With an excess of NADH, the lactate dehydrogenase reaction is driven to produce lactate from pyruvate (the end product of glycolysis) in order to regenerate NAD+ and sustain life. This diverts pyruvate from other pathways such as gluconeogenesis, thereby impairing the ability of the liver to supply glucose to tissues, especially the brain.

In alcohol metabolism, one molecule of ethanol (the primary active ingredient in alcoholic beverages) produces 2 molecules of NADH, utilizing Vitamin B12 as a coenzyme. Over-consumption of ethanol may cause vitamin B12 deficiency as well.

Could you be hyperglycemic most of the time, with the hangover normalizing your glucose? The cognitive effect of hyperglycemia usually only occur when it's fairly high, which you would probably already be aware of. ( http://PMID.us/17286234 )

I think acetaldehyde is a mild sedative. You mentioned sedation as one effect. Maybe there's an anxiolytic effect there. Have you ever taken any sort of anxiolytic agent, like valium? SSRIs often have anti-anxiety effects also.

Hangovers are pretty complex biochemical states...

Fascinating, thanks so much.

Acetaldehyde - I wonder if that's it? I have to say, I do like how I feel when I've taken low dose valium. Wouldn't want to take it on a regular basis though. I hated celexa - side effects and all. Perhaps I should look into other SSRI's? I'll look into safe anxiolytic compounds - any suggestions are welcome!

ive seen study showing NGF levels are 600% after high alcohol consumption, i noticed this before on paper and couoldn't explain it. There is a thread on M&M about this, from over a year ago.

I guess the explanation is the actual drinking of alcohol causes significant damage to dendrites, so this is an attempt at repairing. I would be confident to say the net effect is still negative from alcohol, even factoring in the 600% NGF afterwards.

Wow, that's interesting, thanks. I've never heard that about NGF levels - I suppose a spike like that might be sort of nootropic like. Yes, no doubt one ends up with a net negative effect. Okay, that's it, no more boozing! :wink:

[graatch]

Alcohol causes an immediate dopamine response, no? Presumably the "rebound" effect would mean lower levels of dopamine the next morning and perhaps the remainder of that day?

Here's the thing: IIRC one of alcohol's metabolites has a stimulating effect. Combine this with: GABA negative rebound (will generally increase arousal), loss of magnesium from the body due to diuresis + NMDA rebound (will increase glutamate activity) -- you essentially have, yeah, net stimulation, which can be perceived pleasantly. These are similar mechanisms to that occur with GHB, which is extremely and immediately dopaminergic like alcohol, but even without the diuresis and poisonous metabolites the withdrawal from sedation produces such an effect.

I've noticed what you speak of too. But it doesn't fall under what people have defined as "nootropic", for the hangover is incredibly toxic. Aye, there are better ways to get the sort of effects you're describing -- you'd be much better off getting on some wellbutrin or something, with the focus/clarity problems you describe.

Edited by graatch, 30 November 2007 - 10:49 PM.

[katzenjammer]

I've noticed what you speak of too. But it doesn't fall under what people have defined as "nootropic", for the hangover is incredibly toxic. Aye, there are better ways to get the sort of effects you're describing -- you'd be much better off getting on some wellbutrin or something, with the focus/clarity problems you describe.

Yes, I was being a little toungue in cheek about the nootropic thing ~lol!

Yeah, I'm trying to find better/safer/healthier ways to get this effect. My current list is Wellbutrin, Picamilon, or Bacopa. Any other suggestions for safe and effective anxiolytic compound are welcome! Thanks! ~katz

Edited by katzenjammer, 01 December 2007 - 03:29 PM.

[Sirach]

Hello everyone.
Katzenjammer. I am aware this is an old(ish) post but will try and and provide a little anecdotal evidence. From an early age I have had problems similar to the ones you describe. I have the dubious pleasure of being particularly sensitive to my environment, to the thoughts and feelings of others, and thought maybe you might be of a similar disposition. I can get easily frustrated if i feel another party has failed to see things from a wider, more 'considered' perspective, and am prone to shut down quite unwillingly. It could well be that, wherever feasible, a change of environment or company might do you good- after all since you experience the problems as a repsonse to those with whom you disagree it would be logcal to remove the cause + prevent the effect.

I do not know anything of your situation, but realise that this is more difficult in practice than in theory. I also suspect this has a wider neurochemical basis, as has been suggested. I would give the SSRIs a wide berth. To quote Claude Rifat, a very intersting Frenchman who recently passed on, Citalopram/Fuoxetine, Sertraline et al. are not thymoanaleptics, but thymoanaesthetics, meaning that they work by anaesthetising emotions! In fact, SSRIs are "mood-blunters", they blunt mood, an effect reminiscent of another purported "new" "anti-depressant": captopril.
We have, recently, also found a natural mood thymoanaesthetic principle in a species os sage (salvia splendens) or the scarlet sage! This active principle is not yet identified but seems, theoretically, due to one or both remarkable compounds found in this sage: salviarin and splendidin, which are neo-clerodanes diterpens hypothesized to act as anti-insects, by disturbing the function of the tiny "brains" of insects. The blunting of mood is also a symptom of negative schizophrenia.So SSRIs are, in fact, "mind xylocaines" (xylocaine is an anaesthetic used for the suppression of pain,like in hemorhoids,for example)! Psychiatrists, not knowledgeable in introspective psychopharmacology, erroneously interpret the blunting of emotions induced by the SSRIs as a thymoanaleptic effect while it is, in fact, a thymoanasthetic effect!

More pragmatically, my own 'brain fog', lethargy and unreliable/unhelpful cognition (all classic depressive symptoms) have been almost entirely eliminated (as of 2 weeks ago) with 10mg per day oral selegeline (deprenyl, jumex, eldepryl). It deanimates MAO-B, an enzyme resposible for catalyzing the oxidation of endegenous monamines dopamine and pheylethylamine (among others) leaving more around longer and are putatively safer than ritalin and the amphetmines.
I'm sure you know that dopamine is thought to be a big player in atypical or treatment-resistant mood disorders, so if citalopram didn't work for you (as it didn't for me) it might be worth a try.

Since you already take fish oils i suggest you try taking Selegiline at the start of the day with that (since selegiline is lipophilic). If we hypothesise for a moment that your issues are of a anxiogenic or dysthimic nature, recommended antidepressant doses usually start at 20+mg/day. If you live in the US try the Emsam patch- more of the drug crosses the blood brain barrier + there are less dietary restrictions. I found the tablets cause slight insomnia (when taken after midday) but nothing like Bupropion which kept my heart booming all night and was anticholinergic, anorectic and also lacked the clarity of selegiline + improved verbal recall.
I Hope this helps. I also have a 3 month supply of Tianeptine which I plan to start soon and would be more than happy to keep anyone updated on my progress.

[brain]

i'm not sure if this has already been said, but alcohol surpresses REM sleep, which i believe has been documented as having some beneficial effects in terms of cognition. i feel best if drink 1 - 3 beers a few hours before going to sleep. i think its possible that my rem sleep is either prolonged or too powerful. i often have vivid, frightening dreams. if i drink before sleeping, i wake up feeling refreshed and energetic.

[brain]

Interesting observation, katzenjammer. Here are some excerpts from the Wikipedia entry for "hangover":

Another factor contributing to a hangover are the products from the breakdown of ethanol via liver enzymes. Ethanol is converted to acetaldehyde by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase, and then from acetaldehyde to acetic acid by the enzyme acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. Acetaldehyde (ethanal) is mildly toxic, contributing to hangover. These two reactions also require the conversion of NAD+ to NADH. With an excess of NADH, the lactate dehydrogenase reaction is driven to produce lactate from pyruvate (the end product of glycolysis) in order to regenerate NAD+ and sustain life. This diverts pyruvate from other pathways such as gluconeogenesis, thereby impairing the ability of the liver to supply glucose to tissues, especially the brain.

In alcohol metabolism, one molecule of ethanol (the primary active ingredient in alcoholic beverages) produces 2 molecules of NADH, utilizing Vitamin B12 as a coenzyme. Over-consumption of ethanol may cause vitamin B12 deficiency as well.

Could you be hyperglycemic most of the time, with the hangover normalizing your glucose? The cognitive effect of hyperglycemia usually only occur when it's fairly high, which you would probably already be aware of. ( http://PMID.us/17286234 )

I think acetaldehyde is a mild sedative. You mentioned sedation as one effect. Maybe there's an anxiolytic effect there. Have you ever taken any sort of anxiolytic agent, like valium? SSRIs often have anti-anxiety effects also.

Hangovers are pretty complex biochemical states...

Fascinating, thanks so much.

Acetaldehyde - I wonder if that's it? I have to say, I do like how I feel when I've taken low dose valium. Wouldn't want to take it on a regular basis though. I hated celexa - side effects and all. Perhaps I should look into other SSRI's? I'll look into safe anxiolytic compounds - any suggestions are welcome!

ive seen study showing NGF levels are 600% after high alcohol consumption, i noticed this before on paper and couoldn't explain it. There is a thread on M&M about this, from over a year ago.

I guess the explanation is the actual drinking of alcohol causes significant damage to dendrites, so this is an attempt at repairing. I would be confident to say the net effect is still negative from alcohol, even factoring in the 600% NGF afterwards.

Wow, that's interesting, thanks. I've never heard that about NGF levels - I suppose a spike like that might be sort of nootropic like. Yes, no doubt one ends up with a net negative effect. Okay, that's it, no more boozing! :wink:

well, i wouldn't be entirely confident:


Cognition

A study concluded:

"Of people who reported drinking alcohol in the past year, those who consumed at least one drink in the past week, compared with those who did not, were significantly less likely to have poor cognitive function. … However, the relations were weakened when social position was added to the model. The authors concluded that for middle-aged subjects, increasing levels of alcohol consumption were associated with better function regarding some aspects of cognition. Nonetheless, it is not proposed that these findings be used to encourage increased alcohol consumption."[46]

Another study concluded:

"After adjustment for age, education, and smoking status, men with CVD [cardiovascular disease]/diabetes and low-to-moderate alcohol intake had a significantly lower risk for poor cognitive function (MMSE £ 25) than abstainers (odds ratios of 0.3 for less than one drink and 0.2 for one to two drinks per day). Alcohol intake was not associated with cognitive decline. … Alcohol may result in an acute beneficial effect on cognitive function among those with CVD/diabetes. However, selection bias and unmeasured confounding should be of concern when evaluating these results."[47]

A further study concluded, "We report a positive association between moderate alcohol intake among middle-aged men and subsequent cognitive performance in later life. However, it is possible that the health risks associated with drinking outweigh any potential benefits for many elderly persons.[48]

A French study concluded:

"Among men, neuropsychological test scores were not associated with alcohol consumption in either univariate or multivariate analysis; nor did the proportion of high cognitive performers vary by alcohol consumption. In contrast, among women, significant positive associations between alcohol consumption and cognitive performance were observed for most tests in multivariate analysis. … These findings suggest that, among women, moderate alcohol consumption may have a beneficial effect on cognitive function.[49] "Abstainers have poorer cognitive function than light drinkers and further investigation is needed to determine what factors contribute to this."[50] "A range of demographic and physical function measures were found to explain partially the finding of abstainers having lower cognitive test scores. The effects of independent variables were largest in the 60–64-year-old age group with a trend for physical variables such as lung function and grip strength to become more important in the older age groups. In the 20–24-year-olds, the majority of the effect remained unexplained. There is evidence that poorer cognitive test performance by abstainers reflects in part selection effects and poorer physical functioning, but does not appear to be due to mental or physical health conditions or personality."[51]


of course, there could be some coorelation/causation issues here regarding the demographic that feels the need to drink as opposed to those who don't.

[katzenjammer]

I Hope this helps. I also have a 3 month supply of Tianeptine which I plan to start soon and would be more than happy to keep anyone updated on my progress.

Sirach, very interesting post - especially stuff on SSRI's. I have never tolerated them well - my biggest complaint that they make me feel, well, as you say, "blunted." I've been wanting to try deprenyl - and now I think I will. Please do let me know about your progress.

[katzenjammer]

i'm not sure if this has already been said, but alcohol surpresses REM sleep, which i believe has been documented as having some beneficial effects in terms of cognition. i feel best if drink 1 - 3 beers a few hours before going to sleep. i think its possible that my rem sleep is either prolonged or too powerful. i often have vivid, frightening dreams. if i drink before sleeping, i wake up feeling refreshed and energetic.

That's interesting about REM sleep - I have hypothesized that alcohol, by interrupting sleep rhythms, somehow might mimic "wake therapy," where the resetting of circadian rhythms can sometimes provide temporary relief from depression.

[katzenjammer]

Booze lowers histamine. You could be a histadelic. Search high histamine types and orthomolecular (but don't get this info from wakipedia, there info is not reliable on ortho subjects or CAM).

Fascinating stuff. Do you know whether carnitine/carnosine/beta alanine would (either directly or indirectly) effect histamine levels? I found that taking these things over time worsened my symptoms - in one case to an extreme degree.

[katzenjammer]

Booze lowers histamine. You could be a histadelic. Search high histamine types and orthomolecular (but don't get this info from wakipedia, there info is not reliable on ortho subjects or CAM).

Fascinating stuff. Do you know whether carnitine/carnosine/beta alanine would (either directly or indirectly) effect histamine levels? I found that taking these things over time worsened my symptoms - in one case to an extreme degree.

One other thought: one reason why I don't think I'm histadelic is that exercise improves the symptoms too - and exercise gives you a jolt of histamine, right? Perhaps, indeed, this does point to a sort of low-level hyperglycemia?

Edited by katzenjammer, 12 May 2008 - 06:14 PM.

[Sirach]

I Hope this helps. I also have a 3 month supply of Tianeptine which I plan to start soon and would be more than happy to keep anyone updated on my progress.

Sirach, very interesting post - especially stuff on SSRI's. I have never tolerated them well - my biggest complaint that they make me feel, well, as you say, "blunted." I've been wanting to try deprenyl - and now I think I will. Please do let me know about your progress.

Bear in mind that sleeping problems do occur. I have these anyway - and 10mg - although a good dose for me, often keept me up till 3am if i took it after lunchtime. I would love to hear about your progress if you do decide to take it. i started with 2.5 for two days, then 5 for two, then 10 - it seemed to build up subtly enough that way.

Tianeptine's effects are very subtle and i'm sure many of them must be eluding me but i find that if i take one 12.5mg tablet two-three hours before sleep i prevent any negative rumination and sleep well (plus occassional unpleasant dreams). In this manner it has effectively replaced the zopiclone which i was taking for citalopram induced insomnia. It has a hard-to-define, slightly weirdy magical quality to it! Although i would be surprised if any others were to say the same thing.

Best of luck with your selegiline experiment and please do keep us updated, I would be fascinated to know how you take to it. I felt real spark and verbal firepower while taking it (at 20mg), but needed a break after about 5 days.

[Sirach]

I Hope this helps. I also have a 3 month supply of Tianeptine which I plan to start soon and would be more than happy to keep anyone updated on my progress.

Sirach, very interesting post - especially stuff on SSRI's. I have never tolerated them well - my biggest complaint that they make me feel, well, as you say, "blunted." I've been wanting to try deprenyl - and now I think I will. Please do let me know about your progress.

Bear in mind that sleeping problems do occur. I have these anyway - and 10mg - although a good dose for me, often keept me up till 3am if i took it after lunchtime. I would love to hear about your progress if you do decide to take it. i started with 2.5 for two days, then 5 for two, then 10 - it seemed to build up subtly enough that way.

Tianeptine's effects are very subtle and i'm sure many of them must be eluding me but i find that if i take one 12.5mg tablet two-three hours before sleep i prevent any negative rumination and sleep well (plus occassional unpleasant dreams). In this manner it has effectively replaced the zopiclone which i was taking for citalopram induced insomnia. It has a hard-to-define, slightly weirdy magical quality to it! Although i would be surprised if any others were to say the same thing.

Best of luck with your selegiline experiment and please do keep us updated, I would be fascinated to know how you take to it. I felt real spark and verbal firepower while taking it (at 20mg), but needed a break after about 5 days.

Sorry that's 10mg...

[Mouser]

Katzenjammer, I find your experience eerily familiar in that it's nearly exactly what I have noticed. I can reinforce your experience by saying that I've been hung over WAY more than a few times a year and I've noticed the effect often. Just last weekend I experienced it. I'll add to your description that those positive cognitive effects are there even though I feel tired, like I haven't slept enough, when I'm hung over. I would describe it as being how I want to and wish I could be able to think and act all the time...but at the same time being tired, having a headache, and all the other physical symptoms of a hang over.

You can rule out hyperglycemic as the cause for me. The REM suppression is an interesting thing. I have ongoing issues with extreme daytime sleepiness as well as being a very light sleeper. I'm wondering if alcohol in suppressing REM increases deep sleep, stage 3 and 4. I remember seeing that Ambien does something similar, and I do have moderate positive results from that - still nothing like the mental state we've experienced. Never have tried GHB (medically known as Xyrem) or Trazodone which I've seen on a narcolepsy/apnea forum is used for that effect. But I'd be very surprised if this hang-over effect was just from modified sleep.

I've been on various SSRIs (no positive effect), Wellbutrin (good anti-depressant effect, but anxiety), Ritalin/Adderall, and Provigil. None of these have done anything like you've described when hung over. At the moment St. John's wort is the best thing I've found for depression and to some extent anxiety and ease in social situations. But still, its not like the "hang-over effect." The suppressed REM sleep is something I had heard of in the past and wondered if that could be involved.

I have been considering deprenyl. If you try it let us know how it works for you.

Edited by dman081, 04 August 2008 - 12:47 AM.

[Mouser]

I should also add that Histadelia is something I can't really rule out in my case. I have a number of the signs. But, I suppose that could be the case with many conditions.

[Rags847]

The REM suppression is an interesting thing. I have ongoing issues with extreme daytime sleepiness as well as being a very light sleeper. I'm wondering if alcohol in suppressing REM increases deep sleep, stage 3 and 4.
The suppressed REM sleep is something I had heard of in the past and wondered if that could be involved.

A little Melatonin 200mcgs deepens my sleep. I wonder if it reduces REM sleep.
What, in general, reduces REM and potentiates the process of long-term memory consolidation?

[katzenjammer]

Okay, did a lot of experimentation and found that picamilion seems to mimic the alert, clear, relaxed state that I have when hung-over. This stuff is a godsend for me. The last few days I've tried it with rhodelia - even better. Don't know what this means - but it works for me! At least so far. Cheers all! Weird topic, I know!

[Mouser]

Okay, did a lot of experimentation and found that picamilion seems to mimic the alert, clear, relaxed state that I have when hung-over. This stuff is a godsend for me. The last few days I've tried it with rhodelia - even better. Don't know what this means - but it works for me! At least so far. Cheers all! Weird topic, I know!

Interesting. Seems to be worth a try. Care to say where you got it, what brand, and what dose?

[tlm884]

Alcohol is GABAergic and lots of other nootropics work on similar mechanisms (phenibut, picamlion, GABA, GHB) and all have shown some nootropic properties. However, with alcohol it may provide short term cognitive enhancement BUT over the long term its going to turn your brain into mush :D.

[Advanc3d]

when ever i drink a lot, the next day i feel.. umm very intellegent in a way?
like i can put thoughts together so much more efficently, explain my self, like its probbaly the only real nootropic effect i ever gotten (and i have taken a loooot of stuff)

[Advanc3d]

Booze lowers histamine. You could be a histadelic. Search high histamine types and orthomolecular (but don't get this info from wakipedia, there info is not reliable on ortho subjects or CAM).

brain histamine works as a cognitive enhancer..

[katzenjammer]

Katzenjammer, I find your experience eerily familiar in that it's nearly exactly what I have noticed. I can reinforce your experience by saying that I've been hung over WAY more than a few times a year and I've noticed the effect often. Just last weekend I experienced it. I'll add to your description that those positive cognitive effects are there even though I feel tired, like I haven't slept enough, when I'm hung over. I would describe it as being how I want to and wish I could be able to think and act all the time...but at the same time being tired, having a headache, and all the other physical symptoms of a hang over.

You can rule out hyperglycemic as the cause for me. The REM suppression is an interesting thing. I have ongoing issues with extreme daytime sleepiness as well as being a very light sleeper. I'm wondering if alcohol in suppressing REM increases deep sleep, stage 3 and 4. I remember seeing that Ambien does something similar, and I do have moderate positive results from that - still nothing like the mental state we've experienced. Never have tried GHB (medically known as Xyrem) or Trazodone which I've seen on a narcolepsy/apnea forum is used for that effect. But I'd be very surprised if this hang-over effect was just from modified sleep.

I've been on various SSRIs (no positive effect), Wellbutrin (good anti-depressant effect, but anxiety), Ritalin/Adderall, and Provigil. None of these have done anything like you've described when hung over. At the moment St. John's wort is the best thing I've found for depression and to some extent anxiety and ease in social situations. But still, its not like the "hang-over effect." The suppressed REM sleep is something I had heard of in the past and wondered if that could be involved.

I have been considering deprenyl. If you try it let us know how it works for you.

Mouser, very interesting and really good to know that you understand what I mean. I haven't yet tried Dep - I am afraid, however, that it might increase my anxiety. Have you tried it yet? I'm sure I'll eventually try it though - I wish I could get a "sample"!