84 replies to this topic

[katzenjammer]

Okay, did a lot of experimentation and found that picamilion seems to mimic the alert, clear, relaxed state that I have when hung-over. This stuff is a godsend for me. The last few days I've tried it with rhodelia - even better. Don't know what this means - but it works for me! At least so far. Cheers all! Weird topic, I know!

Interesting. Seems to be worth a try. Care to say where you got it, what brand, and what dose?

I'm using Relentless Improvement's Picamilon - 100 mg/each capsule; I take one capsule, 3 times/day on an empty stomach. Stuff works great & not very expensive. Try it and let me know what you think!

[katzenjammer]

Alcohol is GABAergic and lots of other nootropics work on similar mechanisms (phenibut, picamlion, GABA, GHB) and all have shown some nootropic properties. However, with alcohol it may provide short term cognitive enhancement BUT over the long term its going to turn your brain into mush :D.

Yeah, I'm hoping that picamilon is safe for long term use. I'm looking into that.

[katzenjammer]

when ever i drink a lot, the next day i feel.. umm very intellegent in a way?
like i can put thoughts together so much more efficently, explain my self, like its probbaly the only real nootropic effect i ever gotten (and i have taken a loooot of stuff)

My sarcasm meter may be broken, but are you serious? If so, care to expand?

[Mouser]

Mouser, very interesting and really good to know that you understand what I mean. I haven't yet tried Dep - I am afraid, however, that it might increase my anxiety. Have you tried it yet? I'm sure I'll eventually try it though - I wish I could get a "sample"!

No, haven't tried it. At this point I don't have any plans to. After trying a number of supplements (piracetam, bacopa, dhea, etc, etc...) and getting no positive effects I'm taking a break and just focusing on the basics for a while. I do plan to try picamilon, though. Thanks for posting the details.

I've come to find the my biggest limiting factor is poor sleep, possibly caused by high levels of anxiety (a general, low level but chronic, personality type kind of anxiety. If sleep could be improved I'm betting it would be the single most effective cognitive enhancer I could find. Will be attempting to improve sleep by trying two things: Gabapentin (neurontin) and Diamox - separately and in very conservative doses and lengths of time. Diamox will be first up to bat for its potential to alleviate hypopnea and minor non obstructive apnea. Then Gabapentin for its possible ability to alter sleep architecture with an increase in slow wave sleep. Your reports on picamilon are interesting since gabapentin is a GABBA analouge. I wonder how the mode of action might be similar.

[Mouser]

Alcohol is GABAergic and lots of other nootropics work on similar mechanisms (phenibut, picamlion, GABA, GHB) and all have shown some nootropic properties. However, with alcohol it may provide short term cognitive enhancement BUT over the long term its going to turn your brain into mush :D.

The GABA connection to me is very interesting to me. It's taken a long time and trying a lot of things to get to where I am with understanding what's going on with my sleep. First thought it might be plain old depression, then, adhd, then cyclothymia, then B12 and DHEA issues. There were clues that could have indicated each, but none really ever fit and the treatments never worked. Finally got a sleep test that showed very bad sleep consolidation. Finally something that makes sense and fits.

I mention all this backstory because it might help with understanding what's going on with the hangover effect. As posted by tlm884 alcohol has a mechanism of action that may be shared with something like GHB. As many know GHB (sold as Xyrem) is used for narcolepsy and other disorders where modification of sleep architecture and induction of slow wave sleep seems to be beneficial. But its a stretch. Although its clear alcohol affects sleep, I've never seen that is can increase slow wave sleep.

[StrangeAeons]

Look up the connection between REM and depression; very insightful

[Mouser]

Look up the connection between REM and depression; very insightful

From what I remember the connection is depression seems to be correlated with a higher percentage of REM vs slow wave sleep (SWS) and going into REM sooner (in the sleep cycle). Alcohol supposedly suppresses REM for part of the night with a rebound later. For what it's worth, my study showed less than normal REM and increased time to onset. What this says about the hangover effect, I don't know. There's definitely been an effect on sleep the morning after having too much to drink. But it something more. I don't know of anything else that suppresses REM to see if a similar effect is achieved.

Edited by Mouser, 27 February 2009 - 10:27 PM.

[StrangeAeons]

Several antidepressants and psychotropic drugs suppress REM

[katzenjammer]

Look up the connection between REM and depression; very insightful

From what I remember the connection is depression seems to be correlated with a higher percentage of REM vs slow wave sleep (SWS) and going into REM sooner (in the sleep cycle). Alcohol supposedly suppresses REM for part of the night with a rebound later. For what it's worth, my study showed less than normal REM and increased time to onset. What this says about the hangover effect, I don't know. There's definitely been an effect on sleep the morning after having too much to drink. But it something more. I don't know of anything else that suppresses REM to see if a similar effect is achieved.

Neat stuff - I suppose that may be the reason why "wake therapy" seems to lift anxiety/depression as well? I must say that when I go with only a few hours sleep per night I feel energized and relaxed in a similar manner. Of course, like alcohol, this is not really a solution.

[Advanc3d]

when ever i drink a lot, the next day i feel.. umm very intellegent in a way?
like i can put thoughts together so much more efficently, explain my self, like its probbaly the only real nootropic effect i ever gotten (and i have taken a loooot of stuff)

My sarcasm meter may be broken, but are you serious? If so, care to expand?

its only after i stop drinking alchol where im more aware of evrything, i get kinda OCD and i get tasks done 100x times quicker and efficently.
now who can explain why i feel like that on a hangover.

in all honestly it feels like im on some sort of mental steroid or something

[Mouser]

Part of it might be attributed to the same things at action when a professional athlete has a record performance whilst having a cold, flu, or other condition that would seem to be limiting them. I know when I have a cold and feel like crap there are times during the day when things seem very clear, in spite of feeling 100% awful. A common cold does affect dopamine, right?

[Guacamolium]

when ever i drink a lot, the next day i feel.. umm very intellegent in a way?
like i can put thoughts together so much more efficently, explain my self, like its probbaly the only real nootropic effect i ever gotten (and i have taken a loooot of stuff)

its only after i stop drinking alchol where im more aware of evrything, i get kinda OCD and i get tasks done 100x times quicker and efficently.
now who can explain why i feel like that on a hangover.

Glutamatergic rebound from a gabaergic agonist. Glutamate receptors become overly sensitized and GABA receptors get more desensitized - thus more neuronal firing is happening.

[noobtropic]

Over the course of my drinking career I've gradually observed a sort-of-phenomenon: a long night of partying (alcohol or alcohol+marijuana) almost always leads to a productive and creative following day.

I've made some hypotheses as to why: 1) the ego thing: feeling slightly anxious about the excesses and eager to balance it out with industriousness or something; 2) sleep: lack of sleep is usually involved and that always makes people creative/productive whether that seems counterintuitive or not; 3) physiological: some brain thing because you're obviously following different neural patterns when you're intoxicated and this is the net result; 4) my head: it's just in my head (haha).

I'd be curious whether to know anyone else experiences this kind of thing. Any tangential comments would also be appreciated. Thanks!

[NootropicEU]

Over the course of my drinking career I've gradually observed a sort-of-phenomenon: a long night of partying (alcohol or alcohol+marijuana) almost always leads to a productive and creative following day.

I've made some hypotheses as to why: 1) the ego thing: feeling slightly anxious about the excesses and eager to balance it out with industriousness or something; 2) sleep: lack of sleep is usually involved and that always makes people creative/productive whether that seems counterintuitive or not; 3) physiological: some brain thing because you're obviously following different neural patterns when you're intoxicated and this is the net result; 4) my head: it's just in my head (haha).

I'd be curious whether to know anyone else experiences this kind of thing. Any tangential comments would also be appreciated. Thanks!

We had this question before - HANGOVERS AS NOOTROPIC

[Imagination]

no way, not in my case anyway, i've been a wreck today, don't even try to do any work.

[bgwithadd]

Mood and creativity are subjective, that's a lot like asking if taking a hot bath is a nootropic.

[Guacamolium]

Alcohol can cause a glutamatergic rebound effect which may cause a heightened cognitive ability the following morning, afternoon, or whenever.

[blazewind]

Maybe you are more creative because your brain is in a different state that normal, therefore you see things differently. I remember coming up with epiphanies in a sleep deprived state once at the library, and it felt like it was because I saw the world in a different light. Kind of how people claim psychedelics tend to change their world view.

[kenj]

Yeay, I can recall the next day high/glow you'd get from a nights out with little sleep, - no wonder binge alcohol is a widespread 'nootropic' and oxiracetam is not ;-).
Don't know OTOH, but I'm sure there are exceptional changes in neurotransmitting/hormonal activity following the intoxication, like increasing phenylethylamine, adrenaline, cortisol -- all the basics that gets ya going, as if it were the Last Day on Earth. .

[katzenjammer]

when ever i drink a lot, the next day i feel.. umm very intellegent in a way?
like i can put thoughts together so much more efficently, explain my self, like its probbaly the only real nootropic effect i ever gotten (and i have taken a loooot of stuff)

its only after i stop drinking alchol where im more aware of evrything, i get kinda OCD and i get tasks done 100x times quicker and efficently.
now who can explain why i feel like that on a hangover.

Glutamatergic rebound from a gabaergic agonist. Glutamate receptors become overly sensitized and GABA receptors get more desensitized - thus more neuronal firing is happening.

Interesting, okay - now for a really stupid question: sans alcohol, how can I replicate this increased neuronal firing?

I have noticed that I get a similar effect from celexa - a calm focus, excellent recall - but I don't want to take that stuff regularly.

[Animal]

when ever i drink a lot, the next day i feel.. umm very intellegent in a way?
like i can put thoughts together so much more efficently, explain my self, like its probbaly the only real nootropic effect i ever gotten (and i have taken a loooot of stuff)

its only after i stop drinking alchol where im more aware of evrything, i get kinda OCD and i get tasks done 100x times quicker and efficently.
now who can explain why i feel like that on a hangover.

Glutamatergic rebound from a gabaergic agonist. Glutamate receptors become overly sensitized and GABA receptors get more desensitized - thus more neuronal firing is happening.

Interesting, okay - now for a really stupid question: sans alcohol, how can I replicate this increased neuronal firing?

I have noticed that I get a similar effect from celexa - a calm focus, excellent recall - but I don't want to take that stuff regularly.

Phenibut is even better for this 'hangover nootropic' effect, not only does it enhance glutamatergic transmission, it's also acts as a catecholaminergic activity enhancer facilitated by increased PEA activity and the resulting neuromodulation. It's very habit forming though.

[medievil]

Phenibut and PEA must be the biggest failures ever when it comes to recreational drugs.

[katzenjammer]

when ever i drink a lot, the next day i feel.. umm very intellegent in a way?
like i can put thoughts together so much more efficently, explain my self, like its probbaly the only real nootropic effect i ever gotten (and i have taken a loooot of stuff)

its only after i stop drinking alchol where im more aware of evrything, i get kinda OCD and i get tasks done 100x times quicker and efficently.
now who can explain why i feel like that on a hangover.

Glutamatergic rebound from a gabaergic agonist. Glutamate receptors become overly sensitized and GABA receptors get more desensitized - thus more neuronal firing is happening.

Interesting, okay - now for a really stupid question: sans alcohol, how can I replicate this increased neuronal firing?

I have noticed that I get a similar effect from celexa - a calm focus, excellent recall - but I don't want to take that stuff regularly.

Phenibut is even better for this 'hangover nootropic' effect, not only does it enhance glutamatergic transmission, it's also acts as a catecholaminergic activity enhancer facilitated by increased PEA activity and the resulting neuromodulation. It's very habit forming though.

Yeah, that stuff is nice - but I try not to take it too often. Picamilon seems to create a nice effect too - and prolly a lot safer. Any other compounds that might approach what these do?

[NR2(x)]

ive seen study showing NGF levels are 600% after high alcohol consumption, i noticed this before on paper and couoldn't explain it. There is a thread on M&M about this, from over a year ago.

I guess the explanation is the actual drinking of alcohol causes significant damage to dendrites, so this is an attempt at repairing. I would be confident to say the net effect is still negative from alcohol, even factoring in the 600% NGF afterwards.

While dentric damage will account for a some for the NGF effect, the majority is probably due to glutamate rebound caused by antagonist NMDAR action. This action is similar to Ifenprodil, which increase NGF by a similar amount. THe NMDAR effect is subtype selective, so similar effects would not be observed by most nmdar antagonist. Sorry the science is to fragemented to show this without excessive work.

I notice that im alot better a getting decent girls when I drink twice a week, most of this would be explained by social effects but maybe not all.

[longevitynow]

I have noticed this "feeling clearer" the next morning effect in the past, when much heavier alcohol consumption happened more frequently. There may well be biochemical reasons for it, but it may be more a question of consciousness. When you are drunk you are less conscious, your consciousness is sedated. As alcohol is metabolized relatively quickly, you could go from "very clouded" (i.e. quite drunk) to "completely sober" (close to zero alcohol in the blood) in 5-9 hours of sleep. Since your brain was very sedated, the salience of the sobriety could be very noticeable, whereas normally it is just your everyday state. If you take a drug frequently, you tend to notice the effect less. In this case we might be comparing one state of consciousness the next day comparing it to "one or two drinks"-not a large salience in sobriety, vs. to 6 drinks-a large salience in sobriety.

[katzenjammer]

okay, 6 years later I think I know the answer...lol.

I believe I am chronically low on histamine. Alcohol increases histamine. Histamine is a major neurotransmitter; when chronically low on histamine, copper levels increase in the brain. A jolt of histamine from alcohol temporarily relieves this. I know take b-12, niacin, methylfolate and other things to help with this.

[Galaxyshock]

Or maybe it's the most obvious - glutamate rebound. Alcohol is both GABA-agonist and NMDA-antagonist, so after the effects wear off your glutamate floods freely and thoughts start to flow without much inhibition. Most people get anxious and restless but if you are baseline low on glutamate function you may actually get positive increase in clarity from it.

[katzenjammer]

Or maybe it's the most obvious - glutamate rebound. Alcohol is both GABA-agonist and NMDA-antagonist, so after the effects wear off your glutamate floods freely and thoughts start to flow without much inhibition. Most people get anxious and restless but if you are baseline low on glutamate function you may actually get positive increase in clarity from it.

Thanks!

Is there a supp I could take to simulate this - both to test and treat this?

[MangekyōPeter]

haha I was just discussing this effect with my friend like 2 days ago as I've also observed this phenomenon on a number of occasions.

[katzenjammer]

Update, wow this is an old thread...lol. Low Dose Naltrexone gives the the EXACT same feeling. So personally, I think it's LDN that points in the direction of why this is so.