84 replies to this topic

[BlueCloud]

I had a similar experience to the OP recently..
My usual alcohol consumption is 2 or 3 glasses of wine per Week, and almost always with a meal. And maybe one beer or a small cognac, once a week too. On some weeks , no alcohol at all.
These last weeks I've been dealing with some depressing personal/life issues that just seemed unsurmountable. Then one evening I went through half a bottle of red wine ( wich is a LOT for me), did feel a bit drunk/wasted ( wich is not feeling I usually like ), then went to bed. I had lots of deep and vivid dreams, very detailed and often quite entertaining/nice.

The morning after , I woke up with that hangover feeling, as if emerged from a long coma/hibernation, and then my thinking was indeed clearer, but most of all, a good part of my personal issued I've been dealing with got solved at light speed and I could see clearer through them. The most striking aspect, subjectively speaking, was the feeling that a lot of mental/neuronal connections got broken during that night, and thus I was able to re-organize and recreate new connections more easily and more fluidly, and get a new perspective on issues that seemed set in stone. My memory of some patterns ( the different small things that connects together to create a in those issues also weakened, but it seemed less of a loss of memory than simply seeing the same things being connected in new patterns, therefore losing the old patterns/connections.

[BlueCloud]

I had a similar experience to the OP recently..
My usual alcohol consumption is 2 or 3 glasses of wine per Week, and almost always with a meal. And maybe one beer or a small cognac, once a week too. On some weeks , no alcohol at all.
These last weeks I've been dealing with some depressing personal/life issues that just seemed unsurmountable. Then one evening I went through half a bottle of red wine ( wich is a LOT for me), did feel a bit drunk/wasted ( wich is not feeling I usually like ), then went to bed. I had lots of deep and vivid dreams, very detailed and often quite entertaining/nice.

The morning after , I woke up with that hangover feeling, as if emerged from a long coma/hibernation, and then my thinking was indeed clearer, but most of all, a good part of my personal issues I've been dealing with got solved at light speed and I could see clearer and calmer through them. The most striking aspect, subjectively speaking, was the feeling that a lot of mental/neuronal connections got broken during that night, and thus I was able to re-organize and recreate new connections more easily and more fluidly, and get a new perspective on issues that seemed set in stone. My memory of some patterns ( the small different bad things that connects together to create a bigger image/problem) in those issues also weakened, but it seemed less of a loss of memory than simply seeing the same things being connected in new patterns, therefore losing the old patterns/connections.

It was quite fascinating, and makes me wonder as well about what goes behind it, and how to replicate this in a different way, since getting hangovers all the time is clearly not a desirable or sustainable way. I think It's more than just dopamine rebound, Gaba , etc.. There's really this feeling of old connections breaking up, and allowing you to re-structure your thoughts more freely. The only thing that gets me closer to this is Piracetam , but not always.

Edited by BlueCloud, 26 November 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[BlueCloud]

ooops.. sorry, I have no idea why this got posted twice and the first one has missing text... Maybe a mod can delete the first one..

Edited by BlueCloud, 26 November 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[halfmd]

I found this website by searching for this topic, as I've experienced the exact same phenomenon.  I'm very interested in getting to the bottom of this... seems from reading through the history of this thread, glutamate deficiency vs histamine deficiency is the question.

[ceridwen]

There's some Resveratrol in wine

[JellyRev]

There is quite a few people with this experience. 

 

I get this as well. It only happens a couple times a year but boy is it enjoyable. I can prolong the effect as long as I do not eat food. Meaning way past any chance of having alcohol in my system I still have this feeling. I have been chasing how this works for years now. 

Once I take a bite of food I have a couple minutes before I can literally feel the muscle tension return to my body crawling up my body, anxiety returning, and anxiety based stomach pain returning. 

 

I've looked into histamine and glutamate along with other neuromodulators but I cannot get a supp or group of supps to effect it in a positive manner. 

 

Also of note, my anxiety is reduced when I am sick. 

[halfmd]

This is so bizarre! It happens to me every time. The other paradoxical pattern I've noticed is that I almost always sleep extremely soundly (not surprising, but wait...) and wake up very early, feeling rested and mentally energized. There is a bit of a physical slow-down in a sense, maybe due to leftover toxins from alcohol metabolism, but my body is (as you described) quite relaxed, and my mind is very eager to take on the day. I haven't noticed the eating triggering the halt of it, but I don't know I've paid attention to that, so I will have to observe next time how it goes. 

 

The other thing is that alcohol consumption itself, or intoxication during consumption, isn't really all that enjoyable to me anymore. I've noticed decreasing effects over time, I just don't experience the euphoria at all. Quite strange...  I wish I knew how to solve the mystery! I think there is something to all of this.

 

I should add that I only drink on average once a month, maybe more or less on a given month. I don't have any alcoholism, don't take any other medications or supplements other than synthroid due to thyroidectomy, but this has been happening since before I started that rx.

Edited by halfmd, 20 March 2015 - 04:22 AM.

[.Moose.]

Yes Guys!! Really relieved to find posts like these, I just signed up due to similar experiences with alcohol. In fact, on a hangover is the only time I feel 'normal' and able to think clearly.

 

Encouraging to see that this post is active at the moment. If people haven't read this post about dopamine deficiencies and undermethlyation, it might be extremely useful as it seems to have been overlooked here: http://www.longecity...ohol-hangovers/

 

I have recently experienced this hangover effect without going to sleep so I now believe, for me personally, it is nothing to do with sleep patterns at all. I also have experienced the effect to a lesser extent after weed, or on low dose modafinil, but then I would never take them in the same volume as alcohol. It also seems to make a lot of difference what type of alcohol I drink but am tee-total at the moment so can not experiment. 

 

I believe that this can be sorted through trial and error (expensive), possibly the 23andme genetics test mentioned in the linked post (expensive), and finding the 'common dominator' of all causes of the effect (complicated). If people could continue to post their experiences, that would be fantastic! Please please let's find a solution to this, it's killing me!!

 

 

 

[JellyRev]

Some mix of dopamine systems and glutamergic systems. Possibly reward system dysfunction and a resensitization occurring. Dopamine function varies in its area located. Or perhaps DAT or MAO gets depleted from drinking alallowing levels to build up. In my case eat protein and fats gives the body what it needs to rebuild Mao and DAT in minutes lowering my dopamine quickly drasticly

[katzenjammer]

Hey  

 

I get PMs once in a while still regarding this; I don't have any answers.  Another thing that seems to mimic the cognitive "enhancement" I seem to feel when hungover is fasting.  Ever since I've been doing intermittent fasting I find that when I'm in a fasted state my mind is FAR clearer, better recall, etc.  So not sure what that means but it seems very similar to the aforementioned morning after effects.  

[jack black]

could you please clarify if the LDN or Picamilon works for you or was it a short term effect?

 

also, how does this relate to the Chadwick's thread (go to the last page with solutions)?

http://www.longecity...ngovers/page-14

 

Edited by jack black, 16 January 2018 - 03:02 AM.

[Helllllo]

Would also like an answer xoxo

[jack black]

he clicked on my link, but didn't bother to respond. oh well.

[katzenjammer]

Sorry guys!  Fasting, Picamilon, and LDN - each give me something like the clarity I get from hangovers.  I still employ all three and with very good overall success.  Well being and focus and clarity are hugely improved.  

 

When I was taking c60, that also helped a great deal in so many ways, and especially well being, focus and clarity; however, I have ceased taking it due to safety concerns.  If I could take one supplement that gave me the clarity described in this thread it would be this.  Nevertheless, I cannot recommend it for myself or anyone else until some questions are answered.  

 

But as I say, those three things give me "something like" the clarity.  Not quite.  Initially, it's very exciting because the fog lifts and the difference is tremendous.  But still, I'd like to push further.  Thanks for the link to that thread; sometime next week I'm going to give Methylfolate at 10mg a try.   

 

Sorry for the silence  that link was so fascinating it drive me into all kinds of interesting directions.  

 

 

[jack black]

katzenjammer,

thanks for responding!

have you tried combining all of those (Fasting, Picamilon, and LDN) at the same time? I tried LDN, and didn't feel much, maybe more tired/vivid dreams, but always took it before sleep. did you take it in AM? I don't do well with fasting. I'm angry and irritable when hungry, eating complex carbs calm me down.

i need to order that Picamilon and high dose methylfolate. low dose methyfolate was disappointing.

please keep us posted.

Edited by jack black, 19 January 2018 - 06:36 PM.

[katzenjammer]

Hey  

 

Yes, they overlap - I don't take LDN every night, for example, just a couple of days a week.  Less is more for me here.  Picamilon every morning.  Fasting 3 to 4 days/week.  

 

I'll definitely update here.  

 

I'm looking forward to trying high dose Methylfolate - I've heard some really great stories and some horrible ones (bad reactions, etc), so I'm going to take it on a morning when I don't have a lot going on.  

 

As far as fasting:  my wife initially got REALLY cranky and even angry when she fasted just a wee bit; and it seemed to me precisely a sign that she really ought to continue to fast.  She had a few rough weeks of it and she now absolutely loves it - indeed, she fasts more than I do now.  She has diabetes in her family; all her siblings are prediabetic, so I think it was a bit difficult for her for that reason.  

 

 

[jack black]

weird, diabetes/prediabetes runs in my family, too. i need to figure that intermittent fasting. i've heard good things about it. the best i can do now is overnight fasting (12 hrs on a good day).

Edited by jack black, 19 January 2018 - 07:17 PM.

[katzenjammer]

That's a start  Just keep delaying eating - 10am -> 11am -> 12pm...  The key is to be really busy and don't focus on the fact that you're FASTING.  

 

The diabetes connection isn't that surprising:  poor insulin modulation & tissue sensitivity, etc.  

[katzenjammer]

Here's the strange thing:  hangovers for most people mean anxiety -> poor libido.  

 

It's almost as if the hangovers are potentiating the parasympathetic nervous system/vagus nerve; it's almost as if I experience an increase in nitric oxide.  Because besides the decreasing anxiety my libido is usually way up when hungover - and I mean markedly so, like constant erections haha.  

 

Pasting a post of mine from another thread:  

So I've been taking Methylfolate 15mg daily; now that I've settled in to the regimen (by stopping and starting again, isolating the effects of methylfolate as best as I can) I'd say with certainty that methylfolate makes me very relaxed, even sleepy.  One of the factors may be nitric oxide production; it is very clearly the case that my (sorry to get so graphic lol) flaccid hang and erections generally are off the charts.  Beyond that it doesn't seem to do much for me.  

 

So, I'm not sure what that says or whether I should continue taking it.

 

I think I'm going to get DNA tested for MTHFR variants.  Is labcorp pretty good for for that test?  Any recommendations?   

 

 

 

Interesting, no?  

 

 

[solias]

Here's the strange thing:  hangovers for most people mean anxiety -> poor libido.  

 

It's almost as if the hangovers are potentiating the parasympathetic nervous system/vagus nerve; it's almost as if I experience an increase in nitric oxide.  Because besides the decreasing anxiety my libido is usually way up when hungover - and I mean markedly so, like constant erections haha.  

 

Pasting a post of mine from another thread:  

 

Interesting, no?  

 

It's because, assuming you are a young man, libido is a natural occurring state for young healthy humans. If your libido isn't high, either you are masturbating too much or you are suffering from anxiety/depression. During the hangover, the alcohol is still affecting your central nervous system, which is temporarily slightly depressed due to the action of ethanol, allowing your mind and body to shift to their natural state again, in which one of the three primary instincts is to spread the seed to preserve the survival of the species. Hence the boners. 

 

The depression and stimulation are to be read upside down in this context. An anxiety stimulated system is drained of energy. Hence the anhedonia. An alcohol depressed system feels high energy, because it has not been removed by the overstimulating action of anxiety. Hence the euphoria.

Edited by solias, 22 May 2018 - 05:29 AM.

[YOLF]

Here's the strange thing:  hangovers for most people mean anxiety -> poor libido.  

 

It's almost as if the hangovers are potentiating the parasympathetic nervous system/vagus nerve; it's almost as if I experience an increase in nitric oxide.  Because besides the decreasing anxiety my libido is usually way up when hungover - and I mean markedly so, like constant erections haha.  

 

Pasting a post of mine from another thread:  

 

Interesting, no?  

DNA is a good idea, but methylfolate is overrated imo for most people, even most Rs1801133 A:A people. Too much methylation also means accelerated aging and reduced protein metabolism. Though there can still be short term benefits from this. I took it on and off for a year and I only noticed that my skin started to age faster. I've been demethylating since then. You might also consider regular folate or just leafy greens. 

 

Also, 3g of cocoa a day will create semi-lasting changes in neurotransmitter balance. I've given up chocolate as it seems to blunt cognition with continued use at high levels. So on day 1, chocolate/cocoa, or maybe it's theobromine in chocolate and cocoa, displaces all of your stored adrenaline and replaces it with octopamine (a weak noradrenaline) which persists for about 8 days, during which time your adrenaline response will be blunted which can affect control of vascular systems, and neurological metabolism. It essentially causes a deficiency in exchange for a food high. Try giving it up for 10 days and getting some exercise, it'll be awesome when you try it again.

[katzenjammer]

It's because, assuming you are a young man, libido is a natural occurring state for young healthy humans. If your libido isn't high, either you are masturbating too much or you are suffering from anxiety/depression. During the hangover, the alcohol is still affecting your central nervous system, which is temporarily slightly depressed due to the action of ethanol, allowing your mind and body to shift to their natural state again, in which one of the three primary instincts is to spread the seed to preserve the survival of the species. Hence the boners. 

 

The depression and stimulation are to be read upside down in this context. An anxiety stimulated system is drained of energy. Hence the anhedonia. An alcohol depressed system feels high energy, because it has not been removed by the overstimulating action of anxiety. Hence the euphoria.

 

Thank you very much; I think you are probably correct .  

[katzenjammer]

 

Also, 3g of cocoa a day will create semi-lasting changes in neurotransmitter balance. I've given up chocolate as it seems to blunt cognition with continued use at high levels. So on day 1, chocolate/cocoa, or maybe it's theobromine in chocolate and cocoa, displaces all of your stored adrenaline and replaces it with octopamine (a weak noradrenaline) which persists for about 8 days, during which time your adrenaline response will be blunted which can affect control of vascular systems, and neurological metabolism. It essentially causes a deficiency in exchange for a food high. Try giving it up for 10 days and getting some exercise, it'll be awesome when you try it again.

 

So, you're suggesting trying 3g of cocoa once a week?  Thanks!   

[YOLF]

So, you're suggesting trying 3g of cocoa once a week?  Thanks!  

Well, if the cocoa is derailing you, I'd stay off it altogether or use it recreationally as an occasional alternative to alcohol. I've heard that this is the prefered manner of recreation among the youth of South America where the stuff originated from. Further, you can speed up the replenishment of stored adrenaline with p-synephrine from bitter orange (citrus aurantium) extracts and other flavonoids. I tried chasing my favorite daily chocolate with lots of orange juice (the floridian variety feels like it has lots of p-synephrine in it), it was only a partial success... I was always better off abstaining from chocolate/cocoa. I'm almost certain that someone either has published a study showing that chocolate response is dependent on genetics, or that it already has and all the marketing studies saying it's beneficial will drown it out :(

 

Some related SNPs if you get your genome sequenced would be:

Rs1801133 A:A or A:G (A allele produces loads more dopamine, which is two steps from adrenaline)

Rs4680 A:A or A:G (A allele reduces conversion of dopamine to adrenaline further stressing the dopamine and adrenaline differential)

 

It's important to note that while more dopamine can give you more concentration and cognition, adding an artificial deficiency of adrenaline which is beyond the tighter relative level demands of some genetic combinations can swing the outcome the other way, probably by not allowing your metabolism to keep up with the high demands of a robust dopamine output. This leaves you more prone to the chocolate induced deficiency that Rs 4680 G:G people won't experience as readily, but they don't get our 25% cognition bonus :p

 

There's alot more to it than that also. But that's something for another conversation.

[Helllllo]

Hey guys. Made a subreddit to help find a cure for us. https://www.reddit.c...hangovereffect/