4 replies to this topic

[Bruce Klein]

Topic: James Swayze joins ImmInst to discuss his life, current projects and the prospect of physical immortality by way of cryonics.

Time: Sunday Dec. 7, 2003 @ 8pm Eastern

Chat Room: http://www.imminst.org/chat
Or, Server: irc.lucifer.com
Port: 6667 - #immortal

The following article was written by James for ImmInst on Oct 10, 2003.

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Cryonics Does Not Work
By James Swayze

So claimed a new friend of mine but one quite friendly to anti aging medical research and I believe immortalism in general. I replied to him the following:

You are quite correct it does not work... yet. I have full confidence, faith even, though I detest the implications of such a word but there it is, that nanotechnology will be capable of reasonably restoring me to full health whether frozen or not ever needing to be. I look at it this way.

Is nanotech purported to be possible and not flouting the universal physical laws?

Yes.

Can we extrapolate the eventual ability for fine movement and placement of molecules and atoms and on a large scale using nanotech?

Yes.

Cells are made of atoms and molecules, so precise placement of replacement molecules to repair damaged areas of cells should be possible, somewhat like a billion or more tiny brick layers repairing the bricks in a city full of old houses. Is this deemed some day possible, even if that day is a long way off?

Yes.

Is there a precise definition, a distinct demarcation, for when death begins and life ends?

No.

Any precision in determining the point of transition to death, for now, is more a legal distinction in terms of a finite demarcation. The cellular tissue dissolution that follows declared legal/clinical death happens at varying rates for different tissue types in the body and we know that low temperatures quickly administered actually quite often brings legally and clinically “dead” people back to life. Widely known examples are cold water drowning or hypothermia from exposure. There is another but not so widely publicly known.

Extreme hypothermic surgery is now more than ever performed quite routinely. Patients undergoing this procedure have their blood removed, their brain waves flat lined and their hearts stopped. Any one of these three occurrences normally constitutes “death” both clinically and legally. Even further they have their hearts cut open and/or their brains exposed and surgery performed. Any of these two can lead to death. It is the extreme cold that allows the normal processes of dissolution to be suspended long enough and extra time for any tissue damage done with surgery to be repaired, a window of nearly an hour, for death to be avoided. I personally believe this near to hour window will increase in time just as all technologies usually improve with practice and further research. Such an increase will carry with it some unavoidable philosophical quandaries for belief systems that espouse a non material or non monism view of the mind/body relationship. After these surgeries are performed, the patient's blood is replaced and they are rewarmed. At a critical warming temperature the bio-electrochemical processes that power the brain and the heart resume their duties and like a rebooted computer the individual comes back online... back to life. Voila! Modern day resurrection!

It is important to point out that these people are still the same people to themselves and to their families and so truly still the same selves that entered the hypothermic surgery. No soul, if there is such a thing, apparently left to never return. One may quibble, if one is a mind/body dualist, whether the soul did actually leave and then return but I would have to ask, why should it? Why would these people be so special from other people throughout history? A number of unanswerable and thus meaningless questions arise from such irrational speculation. So it is better to simply dispense with the superstitious notion of a soul or spirit. Still though, for the bible believer I may offer that I am aware that there are texts that refer to the "breath of life" only returning to God when the body returns to dust. It stands then for bible fans that refusing dissolution to dust allows for resurrection by preventing this energy, “the breath of life” leaving the body. Since the “breath of life”, according to the bible, “knows nothing”, this is not inhumane torture but rather is merely putting death oh hold for more adequate medical treatment. This is the only theology I care to offer.

But back to my point about hypothermic surgery and Cryonics. Consider that the Cryonics patients cells molecule by molecule are repaired, using advanced nanotech or whatever other means become available -- while still at very low temperatures, to a state of health even greater than that of the hypothermic surgery patient. Why then would we not expect the same kind of reboot to happen to the Cryonics patient as routinely does for the hypothermic surgery patient? Logically there is no reasonable difference between these situations. If the cells of both are either made to be or kept viable, then upon reaching that crucial temperature gradient needed for bio-electrochemical energy to charge the heart and brain, either patient revives. Whether the cryonics patient remembers who they were depends, of course, on the quality of suspension. These protocols are constantly being updated.

There is simultaneously work being done to introduce the utilization of cryo fluids on trauma patients actually administered in the field by emergency personnel. EMT induced hypothermia, via cryo fluids to suspend trauma damage, helps extend the so called “Golden Hour” where adequate and timely treatment can save lives. I believe that the extension of the above mentioned hypothermic surgery time suspension window and the use of EMT induced hypothermia, will both help further the acceptance of Cryonics [or perhaps we should say Suspended Animation?] and also increase the money and effort spent on research. It is high time for the mainstream medical field to begin treating Cryonics/Suspended Animation not as a cult of Immortalists or misguided kooks attempting to cheat death or flout God's law but rather as a viable medical tool for saving lives. People seem quite willing to and capable of accepting the concept of Suspended Animation for long space flights with great ease. They will learn to accept the soon to come suspended trauma damage via EMT introduced cryo fluids with hypothermic temperatures and increasingly more widely known hypothermic surgery. Taking all these together it is therefore impossible to me for them to not eventually see death as able to be suspended and no longer inevitable except in the most extreme circumstance.

There is one other aspect to this formula. There has very recently been a small announcement not yet made widely known for the mainstream [I suspect] and not even yet made widely available to the Cryonics community at large. Even though the one announcing did appear publicly and endorsed human body suspension knowing that he normally in the past did not wish to be openly associated with Cryonics, I won’t yet use his name. Many people inside Cryonics will know to whom I refer when I say that, a friendly cryobiologist that usually wishes to remain anonymous was recently on my local FOX News Channel as he announced a breakthrough in the viability of organ tissues using yet even newer vitrification protocols. He mainly touted this for organ donation storage but did acknowledge it will lend credence to the science of storage of recently deceased people. My point is that here is another avenue of acceptance when people realize that, if important life-saving body parts can be stored, then why not whole bodies or at least brains?

This breakthrough also means that we are even closer to not needing nanotech for reanimation but I feel it will still be needed to restore the advanced aged and the very damaged, such as myself, back to full health. However, I could be wrong if our friends in the anti aging medical research areas have their way. It may well be that breakthroughs in these areas will see the development of medical biological technologies to foster tissue regeneration for more of the body and areas of the body not usually so capable. I welcome answers to the problem of death and aging from every angle. I am by no means a nanotech snob.

Now I wish to reveal that my unusual title for this article has two meanings. It does refer to my new friend’s comment and the general public and mainstream science more extreme viewpoints that ‘Cryonics does not now and never will work’. However, it also refers to our use of the word, “Cryonics”. It’s been a troublesome word. It almost always and inevitably gets misspoken or mistaken as “Cryogenics”. Cryogenics is indeed quite closely related and is part of the process that we use but it does not describe the storing of bodies for time travel to future medicine.

Perhaps my earlier mention of my possible replacement for this troublesome word, for public relations uses at least, is a clue although just above I tossed out another one… time travel, or more specifically simply travel. I refer to travel here in the high-tech travel sense such as space travel. People everywhere accept without a second thought that NASA is somewhere developing “Suspended Animation” for long trips space trekking to other worlds one day. It has been pointed out that this is more an interest in the fantasy of it rather than reality and that people aren’t really willing to do the actual hard work necessary to truly bring it about, but in a small way I disagree.

I believe that people honestly believe we will without a doubt one day in the future travel to other worlds. They may by and large be like my generation that was about 10 years old when we first landed on the moon in July of 1969. That event and the hard work that led to it burnished in the minds of many that we can do it, do anything, if we want to and we believe we very much will. People believe at the drop of a hat that Suspended Animation in the space travel setting is possible someday. Some might even think it is possible today. They just have never associated such suspending of animation to extend to the saving of lives. Why not?

Why haven’t there been more entertainment stories of astronauts injured seriously on a mission and placed in suspension until they can reach medical help? Yes, there has been a precious few close to this scenario but these were more in the context of utilizing medical technology that exists contemporary to the time of the patient not existing in the far flung future. However, it’s such a short logical hop from suspending life’s biological processes for a weeks or months long space travel journey to reach a medical facility on to months turning into years for medical technology not yet existing. This needs to be written about and I here and now invite any writers of science fact or fiction to do so, promptly!

As to making Cryonics work both technically and to have the philosophy accepted I believe it is time we step out of the shadows and more than ever before gather allies, powerful allies. We need to ally with mainstream medicine and medical research and demand that Suspended Animation be taken serious for its MEDICAL uses in saving lives rather than its possibility of achieving immortality. That Cryonics/Suspended Animation may be one of many steps to eventual inevitable immortality is easy enough for anyone to guess, we needn’t stress it. There is also a quibble about whether “immortality” is the right way to describe what really instead refers to radically extended life spans. After all to prove that one indeed is “immortal” one must out last time and this isn’t likely possible. The day that time ends one proves not to be immortal after all.

I know that some will have reservations about involving medicine proper in Cryonics/Suspended Animation because they will feel this invites regulation and government involvement or rather government interference. I strongly feel that government involvement is coming anyway whether we like it or not but it does not have to be interference. It is far better, in my opinion, to embrace involvement and guide it then to fight it.

The reservations over government involvement stem largely from the strongly Libertarian bent of most Extropian/Transhumanist/Cryonicist individuals. I admit to having some leanings this way but I am by no means a fully fledged disciple. I do not believe that any one pure system of governance or philosophy by itself alone can work for all people… yet. I strongly believe the future involves a mix and also that we won’t achieve pure peaceful self governance, by whatever name one gives it, until we are all intellectually augmented and all diseases of the mind cured. The problem with pure Libertarianism in Cryonics is obvious and simple. It does not emphasize community or society cooperation but instead emphasizes the individual. All too often individuals have wants and desires that are not seen initially by the community or society as beneficial for the whole. We humans evolved to be cooperators and we succeeded as the inheritors of the Earth by such cooperation. It works and all our laws stem from the evolution of cooperation, not some moldy old religious text. In Cryonics/Suspended Animation even our being seen proudly as staunch individualists, don’t tread on us – leave us alone, invites unwanted scrutiny and bad first impressions. It is my humble opinion that we need to be seen as working within the community to better the whole and not simply looking to save our own skins. We need to find offshoots of our technology that are seen to more presently affect positively the lives of everyday people. We need to foster cooperation with John and Jane Q. Public and their representatives.

I will give a few examples that deeply concern me. We dream about such as high-tech nanotechnology medicine that we can even at this very early stage predict, allowing that there must be much that we can never predict, will be capable of wonderful and very powerful things to benefit our lives. We are steeped in this knowledge as it interests us so greatly for the reaching of our goals. Not everyone is so steeped in such knowledge, obviously, or they’d just get it without argument. How can we expect government functionaries, that may not have adequate knowledge of the predicted capabilities of high-tech medical science, to possibly feel about the preserving of an individual with seriously contagious diseases? This has actually already come up but I believe we can surely expect it to happen again.

This is especially possible in our current state of threat of religious and political motivated violence. A functionary that does not believe in the possibilities of future medicine to handle with ease any disease would likely rather see such an unfortunate individual’s body thoroughly destroyed rather than the possibility exist of infecting future generations. Even if the officials that will one day inevitably oversee Cryonics/Suspended Animation operations understand future capabilities, they will no doubt require strict procedures that prevent accidental contamination. This is after all only reasonable in a rational society… one that seeks protection of all for the greater good of community without preference for a mere few. It then remains for us to be sure that the government understands and believes full well that such diseases will not be a problem for the medicine of the future to handle. We must be the ones to see to it that the government and the public be continually educated to futurist concepts. All officials now and future generations must be correctly informed, start in schools if needed. We must more than anything assure all that in doing what we propose we are competent, trustworthy and fully capable of complying with sure and safe practice of our craft. Moreover that we can do so using the methods of our craft alone not needing to borrow from outdated and harmful to our goal procedures out of official convenience..

Recent scandal surrounding a widely publicized alleged celebrity suspension and related familial dispute is a case in point. I believe adherence to patient requests for confidentiality taken to certain extremes is dangerous not only for the organizations but also for the movement. In said case I believe that if more frank discussion of the actual procedures involved could have been allowed then a better understanding might prevail. With every hostile media repeat of “cracked the severed head” and “drilled holes” and all the rest the media insists on misrepresenting the implied suggestion is mishandling, even dropping. These false implications are stressed rather than that some small amount of fissuring is expected that can occur and is allowed for by being far less worrisome than tissue damage through non vitrification methods. We must do a better job of teaching the public, and the media especially, what we are about and how we do it. Greater transparency, I believe, will foster greater trust. While explaining our procedures more clearly and logically and adding some explanation that the same science for whole bodies, the research we are doing, will allow for better organ donation and saved lives, would go a long way for fostering a feeling that community concern exists within our movement.

Moreover it is incumbent upon us to foster allies with established and powerful entities. Why can we not share data bi-directionally with NASA for instance and enjoy the protection such liaison will afford? We know that NASA some day needs a viable Suspended Animation protocol. This is one approach. Another is that if the Funeral Industry feels threatened or vies for more control there are two possibilities. One is to involve the funeral industry with us in interment ceremonies wakes, memorial services and so forth, so that the suspension of a patient using Cryonics/Suspended Animation does not mean a loss of revenue for the Funeral Industry. It is also necessary for us to educate the various where appropriate Funeral Industry and applicable government regulatory agencies as to the purpose and the benefit for long term storage of human remains. We need show what cryoprotectants and extreme cold accomplish so that traditional perceived need for and worries over embalming issues may be averted.

The second possibility in dealing with the Funeral Industry and not necessarily an antagonistic action is to ally with the Medical Research Industry. Recent a certain Arizona based Funeral Industry regulator has made unwelcome assertions. It is my opinion he apparently is vying for more power or simply trying to make a political name for himself by involving himself uninvited in a current suspension controversy. His aims could have drastically detrimental implications for us and for medical research facilities. Cryonics/Suspended Animation is currently self governing and co-regulated by the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act and/or local state Anatomical Gift Acts. This is quite adequate regulation if understood properly and without ulterior political aim. Proposing to regulate above said with Funeral Industry rules is disastrous. Patients are not considered by us to be mere rotting human remains that normally must be treated so as not to leak pathogens into the aquifer while buried in soil. Our “patients” need tissues kept as viable as possible for future reawakening. Untainted tissue health is also necessary for so called “normal” medical research both for finding and providing cures and education. Embalming fluid is poisonous and damaging to tissues. We consider ourselves researchers seeking the greatest ever goal of humankind -- the indefinite saving of lives and the indefinite halting of the processes of death that have plagued humanity and human achievement from time immemorial. We are then allies of mainstream medical research that is doing the same whether they know it or not.

Medical research has always sought to stave off death. Physicians have practiced medicine for ages always seeking to save lives but until now ever acknowledging that eventually every patient was ultimately a failure of their continued practicing. For many the goal is sensed as within our grasp. However, some will relinquish the goal being either not brave enough or not philosophically open minded enough. They will fall back upon statements saying, “We only practice to relieve suffering”. To them I remind that death is the ultimate suffering and that the suffering death causes is multiply and hideously contagious. It infects families and communities and even whole countries and much of the entire planet of people as we learned here in the US on a dastardly September morning. Therefore medical research cannot allow itself to be controlled by the death industry any more than we involved in Cryonics/Suspended Animation and seeking the most wonderful and worthy of all goals can allow ourselves to be.

We are involved in researching a medical procedure and must demand that it be considered so by all. Yes, what we do may result in vastly extended life spans. So will the ultimate eventual continued efforts of mainstream medical research. Many just seem to shove this fact under the rug. In fact I’m going to now drop the discriminating distinction “mainstream” because I fervently believe we are just as deserving of such distinction. The eventual introduction of hypothermic treatments to slow trauma injury damage and the continued use and also proliferation of hypothermic surgery, I believe, will make extreme-cold-temperature medical treatments more prominent in the public psyche. These, in my opinion, must help to establish Cryonics/Suspended Animation as legitimate medical procedure for saving and extending life. I see no other path. Remaining outcast is garnering nothing but contempt and trouble we cannot handle alone. We must do what every size challenged wise entity has ever done when confronted by a really large threat, make friends with an even larger but opposing threat.

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Learn more about James Swayze at his website:
http://www.davidpascal.com/swayze/

[bacopa]

So what do you think the chances of extension are for us?

[Bruce Klein]

CHAT ARCHIVE



18:01:08 FutureQ Hello Folks, I'm James Swayze aka FutureQ
18:01:16 John_Ventureville howdy!
18:01:20 Nanogirl Allo`
18:01:49 John_Ventureville James, I just "got it" about your nickname.
18:01:49 John_Ventureville lol

18:02:00 FutureQ Please forgive the oddd typo as I'm typing with two rubber tippes sticks, ok?
18:02:13 FutureQ You did?! Cool!!
18:02:20 MichaelA Ah, hello Gina (I presume)
18:02:52 Nanogirl Yes, it's Gina!
18:03:01 MichaelA Your site helped me get into nanotech when I was a very young lad, which eventually led to me becoming who I am


18:03:11 Nanogirl Wonderful!
18:03:33 MichaelA Yes yes, all the wonderful people who copied their neurological patterns over to me
18:03:43 FutureQ Hi, Gina! I got your email, started on a reply and got busy with family visits. for holidays.
18:03:59 Nanogirl I believe in sharing the knowledge, as well as aquiring it.
18:04:10 MichaelA When did your site originally go up, btw?
18:04:43 FutureQ Gina, how do you feel about CRN?


18:04:43 Nanogirl Hi FutureA, I understand things have been busy for me this season as well. My site came to life in 1998. I had earlier version but they did not have the domain name back then.


18:05:49 Nanogirl They are very serious, I'm not in favor of government regulation however, but they do emphasize the good stuff and have important concerns as well.

18:06:27 MichaelA I discovered nanotech when I was 12 in a Popular Mechanics article

18:06:32 FutureQ I feel they over emphasize the bad a litle too much for my taste and like you I want as little gov interference as ossible.
18:06:36 MichaelA but didn't get on to the internet until I was around 15

18:07:02 MichaelA * MichaelA agrees very strongly with CRN


18:07:27 MichaelA what do you think about their timeline studies?
18:07:32 Nanogirl How old are you michael? Your early interest and awareness is a demonstration of your intelligence!
18:07:33 MichaelA think Chris is on the right track?
18:07:40 MichaelA thank you! I am 19 years of age.


18:07:47 Nanogirl Your welcome.
18:08:07 MichaelA going through teenagehood as a transhumanist and futurist was wonderful
18:08:24 John_Ventureville Michael, how did your family take it?
18:08:45 MichaelA My family is very open-minded, my father anyway; my mother mostly ignores it, although she did come to see me speak at Transvision 2003.


18:09:03 MichaelA My father claims to be religious, but never attends church, and seems to understand a good amount about science and evolution


18:09:23 MichaelA My extended family is less aware, but eventually they will google my name and see the horror
18:09:33 FutureQ My concern with CRN is,one, giving the enemy solace, and two, the concept of super detailed committee revew of everyu possible danger whether founded or not could hols things up.
18:09:36 Nanogirl As far as the timeline CRN projects, they are fairly optimistic, they see things coming on early. This is why they are pushing for regulations. Timelines are difficult to address, because we can not predict the future, nanotech has possibilities for all time frames, instant, by accident, far off...it really depends.


18:10:23 MichaelA FutureQ: but CRN lists "unnecessary delay" as one possible danger
18:10:37 MichaelA So I'm not sure they advocate a "super detailed committee review"
18:11:13 MichaelA Right, but certain physical facts will constrain development timelines; although it is always hard to say exact numbers


18:11:23 MichaelA This is a tough balancing act
18:11:57 MichaelA You have to balance existential risks against tremendous humanitarian benefits
18:11:57 FutureQ Thta's the feel I got from one thing I read there especially the danger of involving the largely uneducated, abiut nanotech, public. the most the public knows for now is "Prey".
18:12:00 Nanogirl Right, but it can be done right now, we could wake up tomorrow and be surprised that someone in a basement with an AFM has made a breakthrough.


18:12:16 MichaelA Which is why regulation is so important
18:12:25 MichaelA You guys must have read Mark Gubrud's paper
18:12:55 MichaelA Combination of nanotech with general AI is especially threatening; nanocomputing might supply the necessary computing power to brute force human-indifferent AI


18:12:58 Nanogirl Well, Prey, yes.....sigh. When it comes to entertainment, a good sell will latch on to societies technological fear and use it as the antagonist of a plot.
18:13:13 MichaelA And thank goodness Chris wrote a paper deconstructing it!
18:13:41 FutureQ I'll have to read it.,
18:13:57 MichaelA Mark Gubrud's paper is "Nanotechnology and International Security"
18:14:00 Nanogirl Oops, there's the telephone, I'm going to have to excuse myself, it's been a pleasure, take care.
18:14:07 MichaelA Take care Gina!
18:14:13 Nanogirl Thank you.

18:14:16 FutureQ ome back if you cn.
18:14:22 Nanogirl Okay, Goodnight.
18:14:29 FutureQ Oops ther's those typoos


18:14:47 MichaelA James, do you think that nanotech advances will begin to have an impact on society before biotech stuff really picks up?
18:14:53 MichaelA i.e., life extension especially


18:15:30 MichaelA (hello to Sherry, by the way)
18:15:36 hecksheri hello


18:15:37 FutureQ It's really hard tl say. One thing, however, that one can say is that if the current admin stays biuotech will be slwed.

18:16:03 MichaelA agreed
18:16:15 MichaelA it looks like Bush will probably be in office until 2008, we'll have to live with it
18:16:21 FutureQ And for that matter even the nano that leads to life extension ison the radar screen of Kass & co.
18:16:37 FutureQ I hope not!


18:17:01 MichaelA if it is illegalized here, the research will just spread to other countries
18:17:09 John_Ventureville exactly!

18:17:10 MichaelA and our research dollars will follow
18:17:18 MichaelA this is why all forms of relinquishment are silly
18:17:24 Guest Aren't there different attitudes toward different areas of biotech by the current administration?
18:17:26 FutureQ Exactly! And for nanotech that is abig danger.
18:17:33 MichaelA A huge one

18:17:50 MichaelA Guest, with regard to life extension, the response seems to be entirely in the negative


18:18:07 MichaelA But then they'll be faced with placing some arbitrary cap on research, which would never work
18:18:23 FutureQ As far I we can see so far, unless silent voices are murmering under the radar,
18:18:25 John_Ventureville When "national security" and economic competitiveness are seen as at risk, we will most likely see the U.S. go into overdrive to play catch up.


18:18:27 MichaelA Because whatever kills people, whether it be at age 100 or 110, will gain a negative stigma, as cancer has today

18:18:29 Guest But they are putting lots of money into nanotech for weapons. Isn't there some spinoff?
18:19:17 MichaelA Luckily, many of the research dollars are going into areas that aren't actually nanotech in the "molecular manfucturing" sense; much of it is more like microtechnology.
18:19:43 MichaelA Actually, I shouldn't say "luckily", because if they were working on MM, they might understand the risks better and take preventive action...

18:19:44 FutureQ There should be but the problem is when the gov does so for "national security" things egt "classified" and locked away from the private sector for too long.
18:20:21 MichaelA It's funny, in the past, stuff like that actually had an effect, because the government was so far ahead of other research groups


18:20:46 MichaelA Now, you can't keep a technology in Pandora's Box for any longer than 5-10 years, max
18:21:03 FutureQ And that's a good thing
18:21:14 MichaelA Sometimes, heh


18:21:23 Guest Don't you think many in the opposition will jump at the chance for longer life once it seems really possible?
18:21:43 MichaelA There are so many variables at work, the chance of complete destruction at the hands of fusion-weapon-producing nanotech is a nontrivial one.

18:21:44 FutureQ That depends on their spiritual beliefs.


18:22:02 MichaelA * MichaelA waves to Laz

18:22:20 Coyote when senators and congressmens familys finaly face the big one, you wil see more clamoring for solutions
18:22:21 FutureQ My comment was to Guest

18:22:25 LazLo Hey Michael how are you?, I thought I was late is anything happening?

18:22:37 John_Ventureville I envision wealthy Americans going "on vacation" to visit a foreign nation which offers cutting edge anti-aging therapy to add to the quantity & quality of their lifespan.

18:22:42 MichaelA Yeah, we're discussing stuff, Gina came by earlier but left
18:22:56 MichaelA Heh, good point John
18:23:10 LazLo Another late guest?

18:23:32 MichaelA They can make money off the therapies, and the general tourist dollars that way
18:23:44 FutureQ InBrazil right now they are dong stem cell research on spinal injury. If I had the moey I'd be a guinea pig. They are caling for test subjects.

18:24:03 MichaelA If you had the money to fly there?
18:24:20 Guest FQ, let the really desperate be the guinea pigs.
18:24:26 FutureQ Well it takes more thanjust the flight there and back.
18:24:29 MichaelA James, do you expect to have to be frozen, btw?

18:24:54 MichaelA Ah, living costs and such? Or do they charge to use people as test subjects..?
18:24:58 John_Ventureville But are these Brazillian researchers competant?

18:25:02 gustavo FutureQ, do you have info about what group is that (in Brazil)? what university are there in? etc.
18:25:04 FutureQ I'm optimistic but my life is in constant danger of serious health pronblems.
18:25:10 gustavo do they have a website?

18:25:15 Guest James, doesn't the description of the process of being frozen give you "a chill"?
18:25:28 FutureQ I believe I can find it. I posted the article to cryonet.
18:25:49 gustavo great, I would like to have the info

18:26:00 FutureQ Chill? Not at all. I've been dead alrady you don't know anything.
18:26:24 Guest You should subscribe to cryonet www.cryonet.org

18:26:35 FutureQ Gustavo email me at swayzej@[death to spam].comcast.net
18:26:53 Guest How were you dead and for how long?


18:26:54 John_Ventureville I'm concerned about migraine headaches and freezer burn while I'm frozen and waiting.
18:27:03 John_Ventureville ; )

18:27:16 FutureQ Whe I said "you don't know anything" I meant the dead person of ciurse.
18:27:38 FutureQ It was jsut after my spinal injury.
18:27:45 Guest I got some cryonics folks mad for telling reporters I feared a "ice cream headache" for all eternity.
18:27:47 FutureQ This will take a few lines
18:27:57 FutureQ I had develoed double pneumonia

18:28:04 Coyote Im concerned about having a song stuck in my head for 300 years
18:28:33 FutureQ I woke up gaspinng for breath and a mail nrse flicking my nose , saying " do you want to die ? stay awake"
18:28:34 Guest I'm not worried about "freezer burn". I just hate the cold.
18:29:03 Guest FQ, do you think you really have the choice of staying awake or not?
18:29:04 FutureQ I next remember a rountine where they catheterzed my lungs repeatedly
18:29:08 John_Ventureville *it's the heat which will getcha!*

18:29:26 FutureQ A nurse would put a catheter up my nose and down my throat.

18:29:27 gustavo i think I found it... http://www.ananova.c...8830.html?menu=


18:29:39 John_Ventureville It just astounds me what James has endured over the course of his life.
18:29:50 Guest JV, I don't want "the heat" either, nor burtial. It's choosing the lesser evil.
18:29:53 FutureQ They would give it suction ad then O2 and then suction then O2.
18:30:01 FutureQ One day they forgot the O2.

18:30:26 FutureQ I =t sucked the air straight out of my lungs and stopped my heart and brain in an instant.
18:30:33 Guest FQ, what is o2? Oxygen?
18:30:41 FutureQ Oxy yes
18:30:58 cyborg01 Oh my


18:31:22 Guest Did you feel any emotion? My friend was dying and said he was too exhausted to feel any emotion?
18:31:27 hecksheri It is really amazing what is sometimes forgotten in the hospital isn't it
18:31:30 FutureQ I knew nothing of the event until I was later told about it and having to be coded.
18:31:57 Guest Did they use the paddles on you? I hear that is terrible.



18:32:24 FutureQ The reason my experience is different than other NDE's is the rapid loss of O2.
18:32:48 Guest Is your heart permanently damaged?
18:32:49 FutureQ No time for waning feelings and slow shut down of the brinand the brain filling in the gaps on it's own.
18:33:00 FutureQ yes paddles, so the said.
18:33:11 John_Ventureville damn
18:33:16 Guest Don't they sorch you?
18:33:27 FutureQ No,I have a strong heart.


18:33:32 John_Ventureville James, did you consider legal action after what happened?
18:34:01 FutureQ no, I was in a religious fog institgated by my xcian family. I was ful of Jesus.
18:34:04 Guest Have you arranged papers so your estate can sue next time in case you don't make it?
18:34:18 hecksheri paddles are not successful as frequently as watching tv would lead you to believe.
18:34:22 FutureQ I should do that huh?

18:35:00 FutureQ I deidn'r persue legal becaue ZI was too busy being frgiving.
18:35:02 Guest A friend in the hospital saw paddles used on this dead woman and said she bounced two feet into the air.
18:35:23 MichaelA quite gruesome, indeed
18:35:27 FutureQ galvanic resonse to the muscles.


18:35:41 John_Ventureville like the classic frog experiment
18:35:52 FutureQ sorry for the typos, my ticks can't feel the keys.
18:36:01 FutureQ ticks=sticks
18:36:02 Guest If you sued and were in cryonic suspension, the hospital might argue you weren't really dead. That would be interesting.

18:36:17 FutureQ That would.
18:36:36 FutureQ They might argue to put the trial on hols until I can get on the witness stand.
18:36:59 Guest How old are you? What do the tables show as your existing life expectancy?
18:37:05 FutureQ 45


18:37:15 hecksheri what is the extent of your spinal injury
18:37:35 FutureQ The tables don't take into account the ravages to my body from qudriplegia
18:37:47 FutureQ oops quadriplegia
18:38:01 Guest Wheeeling you in at mibnus 270 would make for good cryonics propoganda. Especially if a smile was frozen on your face.


18:38:02 FutureQ I cna't feel my nipples dow
18:38:05 FutureQ down
18:38:27 FutureQ My arms mve some, but no tricep muscles and my hands are dead.


18:38:47 hecksheri car accident?
18:38:54 Guest The mind is still 100%
18:39:37 FutureQ No, alas, something more sinister than a car accident. I wish IOcould go ito how but I was hoping to put it into a book and Mikle Pery has agreed to edit it.


18:40:12 FutureQ Do you think anyone would read it?
18:40:16 Guest Did this event cause your interest in cryonics?
18:40:23 hecksheri a friend of mine is quad, his first nurse after the hospital would say OOPSIE POOPSIE every time he dropped something as if he had somehow lost his mind with his limbs

18:40:53 FutureQ My interest came later after I lost my faith in religion and persued scince.
18:41:04 Guest FQ, people would read it. We all have a morbid fatuation with such things.
18:41:48 Guest How often does an event like that cause loss of faith rather than making people grasp it more?
18:41:54 FutureQ Abut 1990 I started losing my religion. The same song by that name by REM was popular too by chance.
18:41:56 MichaelA Practically never
18:42:23 FutureQ Actually I was considered a good xian for ten years after the event.
18:42:33 Guest I don't know how I got signed in as "Guest". I am Randolfe
18:42:43 MichaelA Randolfe, the lifelong activist!


18:42:55 Guest No, the cloning activist
18:42:59 FutureQ You didn't put your name in? It defaults to gus=est.
18:43:24 MichaelA Hm, haven't you been an activist for a while?
18:43:24 Guest Don't complain. I couldn't figure out how to post for ten minutes.
18:43:29 FutureQ Want to knw how I lost my faith?
18:43:43 hecksheri someone at the door. be back soon
18:44:26 Guest Gay activist since 1958, anti-war 1967, civil rights 1961, sex freedom 1965, Lemar 1966, cloning 1997
18:44:44 FutureQ What's Lemar?


18:45:16 Guest I want to know how you lost it. Ever come close to finding it again? I never had any faith to lose since age 7
18:45:40 Guest Legalize Marijuana with Alan Ginsburg, etc.
18:46:08 FutureQ I was learning compputers onmy own and met a family friend that was a computer enthusiast and one time preacher and we became friends.


18:46:35 FutureQ One day he questioned how fervent my fith was because my hair was to the middle of my back.
18:46:39 Guest A preacher saved you from religion? What a great calling!
18:46:43 FutureQ It was downhill from there.
18:47:04 John_Ventureville what were his keypoints which made you reconsider things?
18:47:34 MichaelA I'm very impressed, Randolfe
18:47:51 FutureQ When I tried to asure him I was jsut as good an xian as he I didn't believe myself strongly enough so I began to explore why.

18:48:18 Guest None of it was voluntary. You just get caught up in these things. Glad I got a second wind in 1997 because I knew how to promote from the earlier times arounhd.

18:48:31 FutureQ I got ack into science as I had gone tocollege after my accident for pre med an psych.
18:48:48 MichaelA Yeah, I agree, I feel that everything I've accomplished (not much, yet) has been semi-automatic
18:49:35 FutureQ Anyway, long story short more science less religion, quite easilly done.
18:49:46 Guest Michael, the most important things before 1997, I did before I was 25, in the late 50s and early 60s.
18:50:40 MichaelA Well put, James


18:50:46 Guest FQ, I don't think the averagte p[erson is strong enough. They turn to religion the worse things get. Usually
18:51:16 MichaelA My transition from religion to science was so fast and seamless, I barely noticed that it happened
18:51:46 MichaelA My ambition as a child was to eventually become a saint


18:51:57 FutureQ well, it moght have something to do with my inventive nature that has helped me survive my injury, so instead of giving in I've always treid working around a problem. I don't see that as so much as strength as sutbborness.
18:51:58 MichaelA I don't think that's what religious people were supposed to wish for, heh


18:52:08 Guest I didn't need science. At 7, I stood by a big tree and decided I didn't believe I would burn forever in Hell for missing Mass that Sunday after I had reaqched 7, the azge of reason.
18:52:11 Utnapishtim hi!


18:52:52 MichaelA Yeah, I felt odd at the age of 5 and 6, being told that the age of 7 was the age of reason
18:52:56 FutureQ Utna! Hi!
18:53:29 Utnapishtim Has our guest de jour arrived yet?
18:53:36 MichaelA Yep, FutureQ is the man
18:53:38 FutureQ Here!

18:53:45 Guest I'm still a Catholic. On TV, etc. I say I am a "lapsed Catholic". I don't say I would consider a Bull of Excommunication a document to frame.
18:53:55 Utnapishtim FutureQ: Are you James Swayze?
18:54:08 FutureQ Yes, so some say.


18:54:29 Utnapishtim I just wanted to say that I checked out your web site and I really enjoyed your artwork
18:54:32 FutureQ I woke up in his body anyway.
18:54:43 FutureQ Thanks.
18:55:14 FutureQ I need to get back to doing more of it one day. I've been too busy being an immortalist activist.
18:55:34 Utnapishtim Hey.. I understand that


18:55:35 Guest FQ, I didn't see a link to your artwork. What is it?
18:55:57 Utnapishtim If we can buy some more time you will have PLENTY of time to pursue your artistic inclinations

18:56:24 FutureQ It's in my sig in every email: Under the button "interests" http://www.davidpascl.com/swayze


18:56:28 Guest An eternity to be a starving artist.
18:56:29 FutureQ oops
18:56:35 FutureQ misspelled pascal

18:57:01 Utnapishtim Just curious. Do you expect that you will need to take advantage of yuor cryonics arrangements, or do you expect that technology will have made them unneccessary by the time it becomes an issue?
18:57:05 Guest I learn something every day.

18:57:11 FutureQ Yes, I kno that but then everyone will be talented!! hehehe
18:57:34 John_Ventureville *but not equally!*
18:57:56 FutureQ I was asked that earlier U. Well it's hard to ay. And I should elaborate.
18:57:57 Guest Only the most engineered artists will triumph. The others will still starve.
18:58:09 Utnapishtim Hey John!


18:58:13 FutureQ You see, at any time on any dya I could expire.
18:58:16 John_Ventureville hello Jerome!
18:58:31 Utnapishtim Yes but its somewhat unlikely right>
18:58:44 Utnapishtim you been well John?
18:58:52 FutureQ I get spell from the way a spinal cord injured person feels pain. I t involves sometimes dangerously high levels of blod pressure.


18:58:58 Guest JQ, why not put a detailed version on the introduction section?
18:59:08 John_Ventureville I still have not gotten any responses from my attempt to contact celebrities about immortalism and PI magazine.
18:59:16 FutureQ These can cause a CVA and I've suffered an atttack of 300/150 nbefore
18:59:37 John_Ventureville the vicious flu going around the states has yet to strike me down
18:59:56 CarboniX Ah! Utnap leads to a question of mine - FutureQ, besides stem cell therapies have you looked for anything to undermine myelin's ability to inhibit restructuring?


18:59:57 Utnapishtim Before the chat is over, remind me to tell yuo about my insane adventures with the nymphomaniac stripper I was dating recently...
19:00:08 John_Ventureville lol!
19:00:11 John_Ventureville I sure will.
19:00:16 FutureQ John, I just fgured out who you are! "LOL"
19:00:23 John_Ventureville LOL


19:00:30 John_Ventureville It took you THAT long???
19:00:31 MichaelA * MichaelA claps
19:00:36 John_Ventureville : )
19:01:04 FutureQ I used to take clonadine but couldn't tand the mental effects.
19:01:31 FutureQ I'm slow but purdy!
19:01:38 Guest Statins are supposed to greatly decrease chances of a heart attack.
19:02:19 FutureQ My heart is tough and probably strengthened by these attacks I get. It's the blod vessels in the brain that worry me.


19:02:41 John_Ventureville what measures can you take to reduce the chances of stroke?
19:02:42 FutureQ damn that's twice I spelled blood as blod.
19:02:47 Guest If the blood vessels in the brain go, will cryonics do any good?
19:03:09 FutureQ It depends on the extent of damage.
19:03:42 FutureQ I thnik even profoundly amnesiaca still ahve a sense of self so I'd still want to try to come back.


19:03:56 Guest That leads us to the old "fatalist" argument about an end coming at some time regardless.
19:04:22 Utnapishtim I must admit I have little desire to return as an amnesiac
19:04:34 FutureQ John, I take meds to keep the blood pressure down, these are narcotics for the pain and anti muscle spam meds and then for emergencies some vessel dialtors.


19:04:38 Guest Have you considered giving that DNA another lifetime as well? Another you would improve the world.
19:05:45 FutureQ Marginal other you, Randy, weve been here before haven't we?
19:06:10 Guest I say: "Never Give Up Recruiting!"
19:06:17 FutureQ Heheh


19:06:34 LazLo Why is the assumption of nature as dominant for psychological development when nurture really determines more about character? Apptitude is only as good as the combined will and opportunity to use it.
19:06:54 LazLo this is a question about cloning


19:07:11 LazLo since I have the cabal present
19:07:22 FutureQ I have to admit, and we probably all can, that it takes a bit of narcicism to want to continue and this also means that we probably consider our genes superior enough to deserve a second chance even wthout our memories intact.
19:07:58 Utnapishtim FutureQ: I would beg to differ somewhat


19:08:02 LazLo yes butit begs teh questoin of envirnment with respect to what would maximize the "real" me
19:08:37 LazLo much of the greatest achievement has been in spite of adversity
19:09:14 FutureQ i don't mean narcisim as in the bad over obsessed kind.
19:09:19 Guest Read the studies of identical twins separated at birth and you'll discover your later-born twin will be somewhat more than just a "marginal" you. It won't be you but very similar., identical.


19:09:48 Utnapishtim I consider subjective selfawarenesses inherently valuable. Our sense of 'I' is valuable in and of itself and not merely justified by any relative superiority
19:10:31 Guest Not narcissism or egotism. That's what some seminarian called me on page of 114 of some book I haven't seen. It is normal to want to survive, to live on. That is why many people have children.


19:10:40 LazLo but what constitutes the best balance of challenge and opportunity? I understood Randolfe and James the similarites are not so great when environmental conditions are extremely divergent
19:10:45 Utnapishtim Hey Kenneth!
19:10:55 LazLo hi Jerome


19:11:06 FutureQ Well, I do't know, randy, what about "other worlds" theory? Wouldn't that mena that even the same exact DNA and same exact time refercnece as in birth at least would lead to infiite variaion meaning that on some world theres someone with my DNA thats adispicable as Hitler?


19:11:29 CarboniX FutureQ, can I send you a file? Its a good read.
19:11:42 FutureQ Sure, how do we do it?
19:11:44 John_Ventureville Remember the film "The Boys from Brazil"?
19:11:53 CarboniX just need and email
19:11:57 CarboniX *an

19:12:13 Guest Until we do it, we only have theories. Most people put more emphasis on enviroment. I believe in genes.
19:12:40 LazLo Yes John, I don't believe in either I recognize a synergistic realtion of the two
19:12:51 LazLo relationship*

19:12:57 FutureQ swazej@[death to spam].comscast.net
19:12:59 FutureQ oops

19:13:10 FutureQ swayzej@[death to spam].comcast.net


19:13:14 John_Ventureville I loved the scene where the teenage Hitler clone is given a rousing fanatical speech by an old nazi who hails him as the greatest man in history and the clone basically says "get out of my room you total wierdo!"
19:13:18 Guest Yes, everyone missed the message in Boys from Brazil. The later-born twin of Hitler saves the Jewish man's life.
19:13:24 CarboniX Second one?


19:13:30 LazLo nurture and nature are not in direct competition nor mutually exclusive
19:13:58 LazLo That is the "Nurture" argument James
19:14:00 FutureQ yes #2
19:14:15 FutureQ I go with nuture
19:14:22 Utnapishtim I liked that movie but felt it was at least somewhat diluted by the existence of multiple Hitler clones, rather than just the one


19:14:39 Guest If I can't hold on to "this" me, I'd like the chance of having a second me.
19:15:10 LazLo For saving the genes cryonics isn't as necessary
19:15:17 FutureQ I hink you'll have ample opportinity to do both
19:15:18 Utnapishtim Guest: Doesn't interst me. Its me or bust as far as I'm concerned
19:15:31 Utnapishtim I don't particularly identify with my DNA
19:15:53 Guest Yes it is when they haven't perfected human cloning. Cryonics is absolutely necessary to transport your genotype to that second chance at life.

19:16:17 John_Ventureville I see nature as the foundation of it all, and nurture & ambition as the means whereby a person's full potential can be realized.
19:16:29 Guest I just can't settle for "bust". "Echo" is more my speed as a second option.
19:16:44 LazLo Jerome raises the bottom line question for many people. NOt really, the technique we developed will keep DNA in tact for centuries to millenium with little or no energy input
19:17:16 Utnapishtim by the way: Utnanpishtim=Jerome
19:17:16 FutureQ How about plastintion


19:17:49 LazLo it stabilizes the cell intact and only requires cool dry conditions preferably near but above freezing.
19:17:54 Guest This country is only 300 years old. Rome lasted a thousand years. Do you think Alcor will last that long?
19:18:43 LazLo the distinctio is preserving the ego/mind versus DNA. Phenotype is still impacted by how teh feotus is carried
19:19:17 Utnapishtim Guest Look at the institutional continuity some charities have exhibited. Heck if you want to find a lonrunning continuously active organisation look at the catholic church


19:19:25 John_Ventureville I do worry about a successful lawsuit "cleaning out" Alcor sometime down the line.
19:19:27 FutureQ Ok, and now for something totally different. How do youall feel about being freinds? Is this important? s it good to have a community of similar interests even if there are some differences or should we as Paul Wakfer suggests shun all frinedship models and be stark one person islands?
19:20:08 Utnapishtim FutureQ: I think friendships spring upo naturally among people who have similiar ghoals and outlooks on life
19:20:28 MichaelA Yeah, I thought that too
19:20:45 Utnapishtim I can't spoeak for others but I certainly feel a degree of kinship with those who share my passion to remain among the living


19:20:46 MichaelA I also thought that we weren't born with friends, either
19:20:51 Guest Funny you would say that. My Mother had an undeveloped uterus, was told she was not built for having childrten and nearly died having me in a long and painful delivery. But I came out and am now 65 without any problems at all.
19:21:01 LazLo I am in favor of networking both for goal orientation and personal reward, friendship is a reward, on a level par with goals and you guys just took the words from my mouth
19:21:10 John_Ventureville I think friendship is among those things which make immortalism so desirable.
19:21:21 Utnapishtim but then I am a fairly sociable fellow. A lot of how yuo feel about this issue may depend on your base temperament


19:21:44 Guest I think life without relationships is not much fun living.
19:21:48 LazLo Friendship is a subtle quality too becauseit is the area of most vulnerability that many shun
19:22:09 John_Ventureville yes

19:22:15 FutureQ Wll I'd hve to agree with yo all and I have always tried to foster more friendliness in the ommunity of cryonics/immortalism.
19:22:32 John_Ventureville Paul Wakfer has been badly burned by people in his life and so he has become embittered to an extent.
19:22:34 Guest People make the mistake of withdrawing into themselves as they age. In my Mother's assisted living place, they all went to their rooms after eating and closed their doors.
19:22:51 John_Ventureville dang


19:23:09 MichaelA hm, I thought Wakfer seemed like a relatively cheery fellow
19:23:10 FutureQ Thats very sad.
19:23:24 FutureQ Bth Paul's situation and R's mother's.
19:23:31 LazLo I foud most people of the depression era generation were sociable in public and retreated into the shells in private but social culture is shifting and there are always exceptions


19:23:52 Utnapishtim I think that one of the problems is that cryonics/immortalist groups tend to attract individuals from the extreme end of the the individualist/conformist bellcurve and such people don't always play well with others
19:23:58 Guest Thoise who are/act embittered are the most vulnerable and needy. They are just being defensive.
19:24:05 FutureQ How will it be for the party//rave generations?


19:24:06 MichaelA we can always facilitate more interactions with new architecture designed, with attractive common living spaces
19:24:10 MichaelA designs*
19:24:50 CarboniX *cough* contract *cough*


19:24:57 Guest I like the idea of virtical cities, using only 1% of the land with subways, etc. and great cultural availability.
19:25:06 LazLo Jerome raises an interesting point, and it overlaps the polictical polarity we see among members
19:25:16 MichaelA he does


19:25:29 MichaelA we have different ideas, and hold our ideas very strongly
19:25:46 John_Ventureville It has been said trying to lead transhumanists is like "herding cats!"
19:25:52 MichaelA we're often correct relative to other people, because we're more intelligent than usual, but among one another, it can create sparks
19:25:52 Guest If an idea is a good one, you should hold it strongly.
19:26:10 Utnapishtim Laz: It might be easier to use my screen name to save on confusion since not everybody around here knows my real name


19:26:21 Guest I love that term "herding cats".
19:26:25 LazLo OK Utna
19:26:49 LazLo and strong convistions should be bbalanced by an objective demand of reflection
19:27:10 LazLo intolerance for being challenged is simply being dogmatic
19:27:11 Utnapishtim Michael: Very good point. I know that for me joining this little community was a fairly humbling experience. I was used to being far brighter (relatively speaking) than I was here


19:27:14 FutureQ However, strongly we hold our ideas we are all clammporing for the same life raft and we can either fight eachother getting in or reahc for a hand and then lend one as well. The latter will get more into the rft and that raft will need them to keep from sinking because it has many punture wounds from without.
19:27:19 MichaelA yes, which is how we learn to play nice and listen to one another, in spite of the obstacles
19:27:34 MichaelA right, we're all on the same boat


19:27:35 Guest Who said holding fast to the truth meant one was intolerant?
19:27:43 LazLo win/win only works till the raft sinks
19:27:56 MichaelA we have to play positive sum games
19:27:57 LazLo but I agree with the idea in principle
19:28:02 Guest Too many people will sink any life raft.
19:28:28 John_Ventureville but there is somewhat of a difference here in terms of age and perspective
19:28:46 Guest Soi, do we dig our air shelters, get a gun to shoot the neighbors when they come running?
19:28:56 Utnapishtim John: Care to elaborate?


19:29:14 John_Ventureville I suspect younger immortalists see cryonics as somewhat of a marginal thing while older ones look at it as their last chance "life raft."


19:29:52 John_Ventureville Of course you can be very young and still be hit by a car or develop terminal cancer.
19:29:57 LazLo returning to "holding fast to the truth" what I am saying is that being intolerant of being challenged is mere dogmatism not rational conviction


19:30:09 FutureQ Instead of a single life raft picture it as many thousands tide together and the more the better.
19:30:15 John_Ventureville yes
19:30:35 MichaelA the life raft analogy breaks down at some point around here, heh
19:30:36 FutureQ tied/tide the pun just dawned on me.


19:30:40 LazLo age does color perception especially as we are on the cusp of change
19:31:00 Utnapishtim John: I fit into that younger camp but the overoptimistic predictions of the 1960s (see Kubricks 2001 for example) have made me very skeptical about laying too much store in the rate of future progress
19:31:24 John_Ventureville I personally know immortalists with at the most probably just 20 years max left and they are not as cheerful about things as immortalist who ARE 20!


19:31:44 LazLo great works are accomplish by teams but also so are great pyramid schemes like Enron
19:32:17 MichaelA I think that many problems that threaten older immortalists also threaten younger immortalists, because as we gain more advanced technology, existential risks become a huge threat
19:32:32 MichaelA And merely human oversight may not suffice to prevent the risk
19:32:33 FutureQ I woudln't call enron a team effort, most of the team then were not given the play book.
19:32:39 John_Ventureville brb


19:33:20 Utnapishtim FutureQ They were given a basketball playbook when the migher ups were playing football
19:33:25 LazLo I will accept you challenge on this one but the example still holds
19:33:30 LazLo your*


19:33:49 LazLo nevertheless the were still playing for a team
19:33:54 FutureQ michale, be careful though to not palce too much empahasis on existential risks. I gfrew up in the era where the bomb, the cold war or Nam were going toget you. None of them did.
19:34:13 MichaelA if they did, none of us would be here to talk in the first place
19:34:13 LazLo and teh team concept wasa part of the corporate psychology and carefully crafted and exploited
19:34:47 MichaelA nanotech and AI facilitated existential risks are a different type of animal than mere nuclear technology and the reds with guns and tanks


19:35:04 LazLo they didn't happen becaue people have worked dilligently to prevent them from ovvurring not because of chance James
19:35:12 LazLo ocurring
19:35:35 LazLo take nothing for granted
19:35:36 MichaelA even if the chance of existential risk is small, it is still cost-effective to devote large attention to them
19:35:49 FutureQ At some point it becomes pointless to =wrrot about world destrux=cive tings that are out of one's sphere of control. One then must have faith in human decency and individual's survival instinct.
19:36:15 LazLo we are leaving the age of faith behind


19:36:32 MichaelA neurotic worrying is always bad, but awareness and the willingness to take action if it is possible are always pluses
19:36:41 LazLo we must know one another and our abilities and match that with a common conviction


19:36:58 LazLo individually we lack an ability that collectively we do possess
19:37:06 LazLo hence we are able
19:37:21 LazLo no faith
19:37:41 MichaelA existential risks are more abstract than personal risks, though, and do serve as poor beginner topics
19:38:00 MichaelA if presented wrongly


19:38:04 FutureQ Awareness also entails truth about the real danger. if we are talking "prey" scenarios that just won't happen. we have green goo now, If gvien the resources green goo would cover the planet two miles deep in ays. this doesnt happen and the same reasons it doesn'y happen will keep the gerey gooo in check also.
19:38:49 MichaelA grey goo doesn't worry me, I'm more disturbed about the black (military grade, fusion-weapon producing) goo


19:39:10 LazLo the manipulation by the media of mob psychology is about using sensatinalism to sell, it is not about analyzing and extrapolating risk in a realistic manner
19:39:29 FutureQ I'm not familiar with that. where is it told about?
19:39:37 MichaelA wow Laz, that's good enough of a sentence for me to paste into a notes file
19:39:47 CarboniX green goo is bio organisms?
19:40:08 FutureQ Yes,Carbonx


19:40:11 CarboniX ok
19:40:15 LazLo then correct my typos please;)
19:40:22 MichaelA will do, heh


19:41:22 LazLo the age of paternalistic politics is also closing, Machiavelli is still dead
19:41:31 Jonesey u can't sell something unless there are lotsa willing buyers
19:41:42 FutureQ Wat would be the best scenario for you to happen with regard to annotech?
19:42:20 MichaelA nanotech being put towards the creation of benevolent transhuman intelligence would be nice
19:42:20 LazLo The issue of global networking is changing the very concept of "Business as usual" for social organization, fear is being challenged as a tool of manipulation


19:42:37 MichaelA then we might have the smartness resources to anticipate and prevent all risks in an effective and long-lasting manner
19:42:57 FutureQ Let's write chapter in the Immnist book on the best scenario to wake up to, not necessarly awake from cryo but jsuut awake one moring to, regarding nano?
19:43:01 LazLo I just wrote on this in the forum but under our full member discussion for the book


19:43:28 MichaelA ImmInst book will focus on the bright side of things, certainly
19:43:29 LazLo yes about medical and genetic application for nano
19:43:54 LazLo I feel we should be making medical and genetic application the priority
19:44:01 LazLo for us
19:44:41 LazLo society at large has a myriad of goals but in terms of life extension the opportunities are great
19:44:46 FutureQ I want benevolent transhuman intelligence too solaong asw e are talking people, cyborgs or humanistic machies but I don't want no demigod aI running everything and keeping me from all dnager and with it all chance to surpass it's level.
19:44:52 Utnapishtim to me getting aging turned off has to be THE absolute no. 1 priority
19:45:47 Jonesey you would think it'd be #1 for most people but they're very resigned to aging.
19:45:59 MichaelA at some point, there is no fundamental difference between a highly evolved AI and a highly evolved transhuman being

19:45:59 LazLo for those that can read it and for the rest we can probably copy/paste and share http://imminst.org/f...iew=getlastpost


19:46:07 Jonesey overcoming the defeatism would lead to a lot faster progress
19:46:16 Utnapishtim It is utterly unacceptable to me. I am far to vain to tolerate it;)
19:46:45 MichaelA it's more likely that a demigod AI would just wipe us out rather than rule over us like a human dictator
19:46:45 FutureQ No diffrerence so paong as the two reach that pint simultaneously.
19:47:09 LazLo I call that the Terminator Syndrome Micheal


19:47:10 MichaelA well, even if AI reaches it first, as long as there is no us-them psychology, there is no problem
19:47:12 Jonesey well if you replace enough parts in the human they're mostly mechanical
19:47:55 MichaelA a true AI would be no more mechanical than a human is an amoeba, of course
19:48:10 MichaelA in the clankity-clank, fisss fissss of steam sense
19:48:13 LazLo I don't think the threat is inherent, we are also adapting, individually growing, and accelerating the species rate of evolution


19:48:39 MichaelA hm, I think it's worthwhile to specify that you're talking about memetic evolution, not genetic, Laz
19:48:41 Jonesey you think lazlo? i'm not clear that the human gene pool has changed very much in 100k ish yrs
19:48:56 FutureQ The us/them is exatly what I wish to avoid and why in my writings I advocate putting the ai inside we humans/transhumans, each one of us and raising said ai to think it is our ultra-ego. It would identify with us and therefore never have an us vs them.


19:49:00 Jonesey yep our memes have jumped a lot lately
19:49:05 MichaelA it has changed by continuing to variate randomly in the absence of selection pressures
19:49:06 LazLo I see a symbiotic relationship possible and prefer promoting that one to the parasitic strategies many lif forms employ


19:49:59 MichaelA interesting proposition, James, hopefully you could perform that information transfer at a distance as well, so that embedding the AIs is not completely required - more safety that way
19:50:06 LazLo Actually a century is not a relevant time frame but many studies show that change is inthe offing, we are breaking out of our tribal roots and merging gene pools now
19:50:43 MichaelA humans are unusually similar to one another, as a species
19:51:05 MichaelA they say that this is due to a bottleneck several 100k years ago where only a few thousand humans were around


19:51:14 LazLo oops missed the "k" the 1st time
19:52:06 LazLo and in the last 100k years cro magnon came into existence actually and didn't exist before we are that "neosapien".
19:52:12 Jonesey merging gene pools? isn't there really just one, africans? that's most of human genetic diversity, something like 80%...? the rest is relatively minor as far as diversity goes?


19:52:31 FutureQ Is it just me or is the mxing of races making more beautiful people and women especially? I think the blending is wonderful and that even us that tranlate to the next whatever intact should do s=ome tinkering. It removes the so called "gotesques" that evloved from inbreeding that was forced thorugh lack of travel and mating opportuiny.
19:53:17 LazLo too broad a view, you are talking about the "race and this is about subtle environemtnatl adaptations that are now being globally merged and redistributed


19:53:24 MichaelA Jonesey, you're correct, I would guess Laz is referring to the merging of whatever diversity has been isolated thanks to tribalism, which actually isn't a lot
19:53:27 LazLo there is only one human race
19:53:36 LazLo but many variations on the theme
19:53:47 LazLo exactly Michael


19:54:07 MichaelA Hmm, I think women might be more beautiful thanks to hygeine and nutrition?
19:54:21 LazLo health = beauty
19:54:31 MichaelA I think the lack of semi-inbreeding may play a small part, not sure
19:54:39 FutureQ Oh mzan, take a look at phnotos form 100 myears ago and compare to today!
19:54:49 John_Ventureville lol!


19:54:51 MichaelA our natural tribe size is only 200, and most villages are around that size
19:54:59 John_Ventureville They just didn't know how to dress and apply makeup!
19:55:01 John_Ventureville : )
19:55:25 MichaelA to do a scientific study, you'd need to compare a LOT of pictures
19:55:46 FutureQ Acually inbreeding was a huge problem and has made quite a difference. People usedto brfeed within only a 20 mile radius.


19:55:50 John_Ventureville I agree that some of the most stunning women on the planet are bi-racial.
19:55:50 LazLo actually as in the case of BSE diet also has a lot to do with phenotypic expression
19:55:56 FutureQ This was before the train of course.
19:56:02 Utnapishtim well I'm out of here!
19:56:14 MichaelA perhaps the US of A has more attractive people because immigrants tended to...err, forget that train of thought.


19:56:21 LazLo c=ya jerome
19:56:27 MichaelA bye Uth
19:56:30 MichaelA Utn*
19:56:32 MichaelA Jerome*
19:56:40 FutureQ y U
19:56:45 FutureQ Bye U!


19:57:01 LazLo many people aren't jsut biracial, they are multiracial
19:57:10 MichaelA but in our natural circumstances, people used to only breed within the tribe anyway
19:57:11 FutureQ Exactly!
19:57:27 MichaelA so how would extending breeding outside of the tribe automatically produce more attractive people?
19:57:44 MichaelA it could be possible, but it would need more convergent evidence
19:57:55 MichaelA it is definitely an interesting hypothesis
19:58:03 FutureQ And such breeding wihin only the one triv=be led to acentuation of things like too long noses otr ears or wonki=y jaws or no chins etc.


19:58:04 LazLo many many americans have amerinde, african, and Euro. By reducing the inbreeding coefficient
19:58:45 LazLo recessive characteristic like hemophilia express themselves more comonly in close nkit tribal procreative strategies
19:59:09 MichaelA so what is the ideal breeding pool size? as large as possible?
19:59:26 FutureQ Less inbreeding gets back to a more balanced set of featues in my opinion more from what one might call the blue print rather than from h=what has been over expressed.
19:59:48 FutureQ yes as l,arge as possible


19:59:49 MichaelA more of a "weighted average of humanity" dealie
20:00:19 LazLo some extremes risk other issues but generally the more diverse the better genetically
20:01:06 LazLo but these strategies are antithetically to consolidationof wealth strategies
20:01:27 MichaelA and also general xenophobia and racism


20:01:28 LazLo that have been based on the transmissionof wealth as a legacy
20:01:52 FutureQ before I ot into wanting to live forever I was studying how socirty might evolve as we became less isolated both by traveland communication. One thing I studied was the effect of melting pot racial blending. It's a good thing I think both physically, as in hybrid vigor and socialy as in less racial dibi=vision.
20:02:29 MichaelA definitely, I was always told by my father that eventually we would all become the same race
20:02:36 LazLo economics and genetics have been working at cross purposes since the creation of currency
20:02:39 MichaelA thank goodness we can go entirely beyond H. sapiens, though
20:03:12 FutureQ yeppers


20:03:28 MichaelA I must retire for the evening, it's been a pleasure
20:03:49 FutureQ I thinkk we already have. Aren't we actually homo sapiens sapiens?
20:04:02 MichaelA heh, yes, true true
20:04:10 MichaelA H. sapiens sapiens
20:04:14 FutureQ yes yes true true


20:04:29 FutureQ Where is all the peole listed on the right panel?
20:04:33 LazLo actually I should also say adieu, it's need swell folks. Trans neosapiens unite!!
20:04:47 MichaelA the wonder of chatrooms; people idle on here forever
20:04:55 MichaelA as I am about to do at this very moment
20:05:03 MichaelA ta ta for now, thanks for joining us


20:05:14 FutureQ I see, so I won't worry then about laving them behind and I'll say adiu also.
20:05:29 LazLo me too, hasta la vista ladies
20:05:43 FutureQ John, you there|?
20:05:58 FutureQ Hasta la pasta guys n gals
20:06:10 cyborg01 Cya around james =)
20:06:22 John_Ventureville I'm here!


20:06:24 FutureQ ya, did you send the file?
20:06:55 FutureQ Well if you guys are still here zi might stau a while longer
20:07:07 John_Ventureville sounds good to me
20:07:36 FutureQ How's "the" life John? Ya know what I mean?
20:08:20 John_Ventureville lol
20:08:26 John_Ventureville I'm surviving nicely.
20:08:42 John_Ventureville my downer lately has been business
20:08:47 John_Ventureville things have SLOWED down
20:08:50 John_Ventureville not good


20:08:52 FutureQ Good, where might your beloved be right now?
20:08:59 John_Ventureville talking to grandma
20:09:07 John_Ventureville next door
20:09:27 FutureQ You don't stay at the ranch anymore?
20:10:06 John_Ventureville I meant she was on the phone


20:10:34 FutureQ Cyborg, may I aks why you chsoe that name? have you an interst in being a cyborg or are you to a degree alreadyh? I am.
20:10:54 FutureQ I gottcha. Hows' Dave?
20:11:12 John_Ventureville he has actually been relaxing lately!
20:11:16 FutureQ Hey did Natasha get back to you about my artile and Hef yet?
20:11:18 John_Ventureville brb


20:11:45 cyborg01 FutureQ: well actually we've chatted before on MURG.. if you remember..
20:12:00 FutureQ Thomas?
20:12:25 cyborg01 No..see my /whois =)
20:12:39 FutureQ how doI do that?
20:13:06 cyborg01 Oh nevermind.. I'm YKY =)
20:13:20 FutureQ Oh, hi! Great!
20:13:27 cyborg01 Heh


20:13:35 FutureQ mna you are brilliant. wish I had your educastion.


20:14:19 cyborg01 Heh I just spend most of my life with books
20:14:46 FutureQ Heh, I spend too much time avoiding them and dreaming.
20:15:59 FutureQ I wish those guys on MURG weren't so entrenched when it came to new ideas. But most of all i wish they could be more civil when expressing scepticcism.
20:16:22 CarboniX MURG?
20:16:29 cyborg01 They're fine I like chatting with them
20:16:45 cyborg01 Murg =mind uploading research group
20:16:56 CarboniX oh


20:17:13 FutureQ I know that highly intelligent people can be quite intolerant of those that are not and this gets expressed even with their peers that arewhen they feel an idea is not up to thei =ridea of merit.
20:17:38 Jonesey well 90% of the time they are right, futureq
20:18:22 FutureQ I did not like the atiude from Joe S. when he criticized your funding plan. He didn't have to be an asshole jsut because he didn't lke it.


20:18:26 Utnapishtim James You have a point
20:19:03 Utnapishtim I think it has a lot to do with the fact the that the exceptionally intelligent are accustomed to outthinking those arround them
20:19:19 Utnapishtim this can result in a certain dismissive attitude
20:19:20 FutureQ Well I know from experience that I have to be careful nd keep my own ego in check when dealing with people.
20:19:41 FutureQ It sure does
20:20:24 hkhenson I had no idea there was a mind uploading research group
20:20:24 Utnapishtim Sometimes I think it also has to do with people overcompensating for what they perceive as a lack of respect from 'the world at large'


20:21:09 John_Ventureville take care Michael
20:21:44 John_Ventureville I'm behind the times here
20:21:46 FutureQ Wel, I grew up eing ridiculed for my intellect. Names like Mr. Knowitall and such. Those around me felt threatened d expressed it. This may lead some with higher intellect to get a hardene shell.
20:21:46 John_Ventureville sorry!
20:22:08 Coyote Conversely, As a sub genius polymath I have the luxury of not having to live up to these higher expectations, its very liberating


20:22:22 Utnapishtim James: I think that is not just down to intellect
20:22:24 FutureQ LOL
20:22:29 Utnapishtim it has to do with how you express it
20:22:41 Jonesey i thought u were a dom and not a sub coyote
20:22:53 Utnapishtim social skills are a pretty seperate sphere from raw cognitive firepower
20:22:55 Coyote projection Jonesey
20:22:59 Jonesey haha


20:23:06 John_Ventureville And when a bright person discusses "sci fi" nanotech and A.I. with people who don't know (and don't care) things really get bad.
20:23:32 FutureQ Can attest to this.
20:23:46 John_Ventureville Max More is a great example of someone with both raw cognitive firepower and very smooth social skills.
20:23:46 FutureQ My brother got mad enough to strike me.
20:23:50 Utnapishtim Again I think a lot of it comes down to how you talk to people about this stuff
20:23:55 John_Ventureville what??
20:26:33 John_Ventureville that almost sounds biblical in nature
20:26:39 John_Ventureville lol
20:26:41 John_Ventureville : (


20:26:42 FutureQ Well I've always, well not always obviously, but for much of y ltter lifetime been able to have a smoother dilivery and talk at any level more in a teaching manner and making things understandible not just by those of lesser intellect but those simply notyet informed and I msut say that when it comes to things thst fundamentally threaten one's belief systems, ideas of their place in the universe, =and the fate of humanity, it sometimes do
20:27:40 John_Ventureville James, I just don't want you teaching immortalist sex ed to the unenlightened....
20:27:48 John_Ventureville : )


20:27:55 John_Ventureville *your article in PI*
20:27:59 FutureQ Hehe, too late!
20:28:46 John_Ventureville yep!
20:28:47 CarboniX CarboniX (~CarboniX@[death to spam].vdsl-151-118-10-239.dnvr.uswest.net) has quit IRC [Quit: JWIRC applet]

20:28:59 John_Ventureville seriously....
20:29:19 John_Ventureville I would love to see "Transhumanism for Dummies" coming out someday soon
20:29:23 Coyote hmmm
20:29:36 Coyote now that I could contribute to
20:29:45 John_Ventureville lol
20:30:05 Utnapishtim IT'LL BE A WHILE


20:30:08 FutureQ Ho=w aout, "Transhumanism for the complete bloody idiot, this means you Leon Kass!"
20:30:17 John_Ventureville LOL!!!
20:30:31 Utnapishtim Transhumansim is not something people are insecure about being uninforemd about
20:30:37 John_Ventureville I want to see bumper stickers which say "Leon Kass Wants You Dead!"
20:31:05 FutureQ How so Ut?
20:31:11 Utnapishtim They should have a Leon Kass poster with him pulling an uncle sam pose
20:31:26 Coyote "They" should


20:31:28 Utnapishtim I Want YOU in a box under the ground
20:31:48 FutureQ Get me a phot oof the bastard and ai make a painting of th3 grim reaper with Kass's face.
20:32:12 Utnapishtim FutureQ: People are rarely embarassed socially by not knowing about transhumanism
20:32:27 Utnapishtim sso there is not THAT much incentive for the layperson to learn about it
20:32:34 Coyote well
20:32:49 Coyote there is the allure of body modification
20:32:51 Jonesey most ppl are embarrassed by seeming too informed about stuff like this, it's too nerdy
20:32:57 FutureQ hmm, in the town I'm in they aren't embarassed hey simply don't know enough to know they shoud be.
20:33:46 John_Ventureville I don't know if I'm the only one here, but I remember vividly when Sci Am slammed the whole notion of nano and now the world is embracing it!
20:34:16 John_Ventureville I see our "kookiness" going mainstream rather fast.
20:34:21 Coyote yep


20:34:26 Utnapishtim SciAm lays a lot of stock in its respectability
20:34:44 John_Ventureville they called nano "cargo cult science!"
20:35:00 Utnapishtim Maintaining respectability often means rejecting all new or radical

[FutureQ]

Hmmm, my website has changed from that listed just after my article. It is now: http://home.comcast....spage_main.html

FQ

[coldangel]

Large insects from New Zealand, called 'Weta', have evolved certain proteins in their haemolymph which prevent ice crystals forming in their cells. This prevents the cell destruction and means that the Weta can survive being frozen.

I'd say this warrants further investigation. If the gene responsible for producing this protein can be identified and transplanted into other animals in a lab environment, we might be able to replicate the effect in a mammal. After that point, if successful, a human trial might be carried out (legal issues notwithstanding).

It has applications not only for life-extension, but also for long-duration spaceflight.