209 replies to this topic

[Hedrock]

I'm inclined to say "no", but I'm just not sure yet.

I'd prefer clones if possible one day.

[geneer]

Definitely not, I prefer to build and pay attention to itself, and not on the larva of human. I would be happy to be infertile.

[Alex Libman]

No one wants to have kids anymore, or at least not enough people to prevent a demographic collapse, which is a major problem that might require some major social changes. I've previously written about this on libertarian forums in threads like the "Childless Tax" and (better yet) the "Parents Tax".

Of course the "powers that be" are doing the complete opposite, putting their grip on power ahead of the human species...

[chrwe]

Already have two children.

The issue here is that the "cons" are easily measured whereas the "pros" are more psychological and emotional in nature.

Cons: Cost a lot of money and effort, cost you years of sleeping, cost you a lot of physical effort (whether this makes for a longer life or a shorter one is unsure), cost you a lot of free time, cause immense worries at times

Pros: Give life a deeper meaning, get your head out of "yourself" which is in my experience a good thing, give you emotional support when lonely (provided you draw a good card in the gene game), are beautiful beings to watch often

[Alex Libman]

The "psychological and emotional" incentives for having children are proving themselves catastrophically ineffective in a post-modern secular society. That means the Natural Rights of parents are not being recognized in full, and we need a social concept like the aforementioned "Parents Tax" to balance things out. Just as property rights come from the necessity of incentivizing individuals to pull their own economic weight, individuals must be incentivized to pull their demographic weight as well. It would also give parents a greater interest in directing their children's education toward maximizing their career prospects, thus benefiting an increase in individual productivity as well!

[chris w]

In a world where death isn't inevitable - probably very likely.
As things stand now - rather not.

[govtrust]

I cannot have kids. I had a vasectomy. I'm in my mid 30's.

Life is pretty fun. There are lots of different things to learn and explore, people to meet, places to go.

Having a family is OK but I'd rather have a variety of life experience.

Sometimes I watch that show Parenthood and then I go out to eat, or read a book, or see a movie, or go to the park.

I don't find children's "insights" cute or interesting. I like to fool around and be childish but I also like to be serious and adultish.

I don't want to be forced to make a lot of money at a stupid job just to support my family.

It is hard enough to take risks without a set of dependents.

If I don't want to take care of my offspring it seems unfair for me to force someone else to do it.

Especially if that person is interesting enough to want to mate with in the first place.

Having a dog or cat to "dress up" is an easy replacement for offspring and much less demanding. You can even teach them things.

Edited by govtrust, 02 June 2010 - 10:22 PM.

[openeyes]

I've been interested in learning whatever I can about raising kids well ever since I myself was a kid. Soon I'll be 26 and my girlfriend of ~3 years will be 24. We expect to begin having kids in the next 3-5 years, and are doing what we can to optimize our situation for it. I want to make sure I'll be able to actually spend significant time with them and possibly homeschool. If I were going to be working 60+ hours per week or constantly away from home for long periods I'd be much less interested in having kids.

Adoption is an option, but we plan to have at least one kid that is biologically related to both of us. Beyond that, how much we adopt will depend a good deal on how smooth the process goes. As long as people are able to easily have healthy children on their own, I can see why most don't opt to adopt, even if they're open to it, with it seeming much more expensive and complicated than it needs to be, particularly if they want a healthy infant.

Edited by openeyes, 09 August 2010 - 08:29 AM.

[The Immortalist]

I want to have kids but I wouldn't be able to stand having my partner going through the pains of childbirth. I would prefer to have my child in an artificial womb if possible in the future, or use a surrogate mother while I keep my child.

[The Immortalist]

To all Life Extensionists who are reading this.

Those who don't want to have kids please reconsider. We need to increase our numbers so we can win the battle against death.

Now of course I don't want to have kids just for the reason of increasing the number of Immortalists, that would be immoral.I want to have kids just as any normal person would want to have kids.

I'm just saying if the population of the Immortalist community is on a positive incline over the years we will win the battle against death and aging because there will be an indefinite increase of the number of intelligent minds working on the problem of death and aging. The more minds working on aging = the faster it gets cured.

[Elus]

No, absolutely not. I don't want to contribute even further to the population problem we have, and I am extremely impatient with kids as it is. I don't like how ignorant they are, even though I realise I myself was once like them. There is so much more I could do with my time than raise a child. My ambition is immortality and being the self-centered person that I am, I have no intention of sharing my genes with anyone.

I think we should instead focus on improving the lives of individuals that are already living.

I feel I have enough purpose in life that I do not need to fill an empty hole by having a child, like many of my acquaintances do.

Mind, I completely agree.

Edited by Elus, 10 August 2010 - 04:06 PM.

[Logan]

No, absolutely not. I don't want to contribute even further to the population problem we have, and I am extremely impatient with kids as it is. I don't like how ignorant they are, even though I realise I myself was once like them. There is so much more I could do with my time than raise a child. My ambition is immortality and being the self-centered person that I am, I have no intention of sharing my genes with anyone.

I think we should instead focus on improving the lives of individuals that are already living.

I feel I have enough purpose in life that I do not need to fill an empty hole by having a child, like many of my acquaintances do.

Mind, I completely agree.

Why does having children have to be a "fulfilling a hole" thing? What about unselfishly giving the gift of life?

Human life wouldn't be interesting and may not continue to advance quite as much or as rapidly if we didn't bring new life into the world.

I think it's pretty ridiculous that some people here are so self centered, egocentric, and selfish that they think at one point we will simply live forever, increase our abilities and intelligence, and have no need for reproduction. I'm not talking about the people I was initially responding to in this post.

Edited by morganator, 10 August 2010 - 04:19 PM.

[Elus]

Human life wouldn't be interesting and may not continue to advance quite as much or as rapidly if we didn't bring new life into the world.

A long-lived individual, full of experience and knowledge, can contribute far more than an ignorant newborn infant.

Having offspring is an evolutionary mechanism designed to pass genes onto the next generation in order to allow for adaptation to the environment. We call this mechanism evolution. However, given that we are approaching an era of supreme mastery of genetic engineering, we humans will be able to dictate our own advancement without the use of inefficient mechanisms such as reproduction.

In essence, we will have greater control over our own future.

Edited by Elus, 10 August 2010 - 08:44 PM.

[Logan]

Human life wouldn't be interesting and may not continue to advance quite as much or as rapidly if we didn't bring new life into the world.

A long-lived individual, full of experience and knowledge, can contribute far more than an ignorant newborn infant.

Having offspring is an evolutionary mechanism designed to pass genes onto the next generation in order to allow for adaptation to the environment. We call this mechanism evolution. However, given that we are approaching an era of supreme mastery of genetic engineering, we humans will be able to dictate our own advancement without the use of inefficient mechanisms such as reproduction.

In essence, we will have greater control over our own future.

It almost sounds as if you have no appreciation for the reason why you are here today. I believe the creation of new life is an amazing thing that we should never take for granted. Having children can bring us closer and teach us lessons sometimes necessary for further personal growth. There are so many positives that come out of having children and starting families. I highly doubt we will ever stop reproducing. There will be a large part of the population of the human race that will continue to do so, regardless of what other "more advanced" humans are doing.

Are you one that thinks trans-humanism is the ultimate goal, not just life-extension or achieving indefinite lifespan(I realize the only way to achieve an indefinite life span may be to achieve trans-humanism). Trans-humanism will be fine by me if it means we live incredibly long lives, as long as we don't lose those things that make human life beautiful and interesting-joy, laughter, sadness, courage, friendship, anger, pain, and most importantly, love. If you are one that wants to transform into a being that does not feel or experience these things, it makes me wonder what your life experience has been up until this point.

I'm also guessing you don't like kids much and you don't see the kinds of lessons we can learn from our children.

I guess there will be 2 races, those that choose trans-humanism(which doesn't sound very human to me) and those that still want to reproduce, love, feel joy, and experience the wonder of close intimate relationships with family, friends, and romantic partners.

Edited by morganator, 10 August 2010 - 09:15 PM.

[Elus]

It almost sounds as if you have no appreciation for the reason why you are here today. I believe the creation of new life is an amazing thing that we should never take for granted. Having children can bring us closer and teach us lessons sometimes necessary for further personal growth. There are so many positives that come out of having children and starting families. I highly doubt we will ever stop reproducing. There will be a large part of the population of the human race that will continue to do so, regardless of what other "more advanced" humans are doing.

Are you one that thinks trans-humanism is the ultimate goal, not just life-extension or achieving indefinite lifespan(I realize the only way to achieve an indefinite life span may be to achieve trans-humanism). Trans-humanism will be fine by me if it means we live incredibly long lives, as long as we don't lose those things that make human life beautiful and interesting-joy, laughter, sadness, courage, friendship, anger, pain, and most importantly, love. If you are one that wants to transform into a being that does not feel or experience these things, it makes me wonder what your life experience has been up until this point.

I'm also guessing you don't like kids much and you don't see the kinds of lessons we can learn from our children.

I guess there will be 2 races, those that choose trans-humanism(which doesn't sound very human to me) and those that still want to reproduce, love, feel joy, and experience the wonder of close intimate relationships with family, friends, and romantic partners.

1. Can you illuminate the kinds of lessons we can only learn from our children? Making vague statements such as "...you don't see the kinds of lessons we can learn from our children" doesn't really form a coherent basis for argument.


2. I agree that there will be a rift in our society. Some will choose to remain human and others will choose to augment themselves in unimaginable ways.

3. I'm not sure how emotions will factor into the grand equation of consciousness. Whether or not we will choose to include them is a question unto itself. All I know is that I would like to maximize my freedom of choice, if such a concept even exists (Though determinism has a strong case against it).

[cyborgdreamer]

I changed my vote (from three years ago!) to most probably not. First of all, I don't think raising children would make me happy; the quickest way to make me miserable is to put me in a situation where I don't have free time. Secondly, though I wouldn't want the human race to go extinct, I just don't feel right creating a being who would be subject to the death, suffering, and limitations of the human condition. A child of mine would likely have an especially hard time dealing with it since he/she would have a family history of anxiety problems and a mother who hates the human condition. Finally, if I don't have children, I'll have more time and money to devote toward helping people who already exist. So all and all, I figure I'll leave reproduction to those who truly want to raise children. Maybe I'll just get a parrot instead.

[Logan]

1. Can you illuminate the kinds of lessons we can only learn from our children? Making vague statements such as "...you don't see the kinds of lessons we can learn from our children" doesn't really form a coherent basis for argument.

I guess when there is a Singularity, and, you are no longer "human", you may not need to learn lessons from children and the process of raising children. The Singularity may take care of reminding us and teaching us those valuable things that having children can. And, if you are a "transhuman", in some cyborg form, you may no longer care about the kinds of things that you would learn or be reminded of when raising children. You simply may not have those "primal" needs that humans now have. And if that happens, I think that will be a sad day.

I have some ideas as to how having children can help you grow as an individual, but maybe some people here that actually have children can shed some light on what I'm talking about. I do think raising children and forming a healthy relationship with them can help us heal from our troubled past. Children can teach us to have more patience and learn to not take certain things for granted. Children can remind us that we too have a child inside of us and we can still live life with the same joy and enthusiasm that children do. Bringing children in our lives can rekindle a passion inside of us that we had lost touch with.

I realize that all of this may not make any sense to you and others being that there are so many people out there that just seem miserable after they have children. My answer to that is these people were miserable inside to begin with. I think we could probably agree, most people are not truly content. Most people lost their lust for life a long time ago. Why is this? Because most people have been hurt and still are. Unfortunately, many of these hurt people end up having children, but that is another discussion for another day.

[Scottza]

I said yes as my second kid is now brewing in my wife's womb. The thing that did it for me is taking the long view. Whether or not significant life extension works out in my lifetime, I asked myself if 20 or 30 years from now I would rather be sitting around the table on holidays either alone (or w/one other person) or with a group of adult children who may have kids of their own. I choose the later even though I will be getting less sleep and have less money to make that happen.

One of the keys to a long life has been shown to have a strong social structure around you. Sure friends can make up some of the difference and sure some family stresses are a negative, but a bunch of happy kids and the secondary relationships formed through them (parents of their friends, getting out in to community) are a boon IMO...especially for someone a little introverted who without a family is at risk of growing withdrawn getting older.

Edited by Scottza, 13 December 2010 - 07:24 PM.

[Scottza]

Human life wouldn't be interesting and may not continue to advance quite as much or as rapidly if we didn't bring new life into the world.

A long-lived individual, full of experience and knowledge, can contribute far more than an ignorant newborn infant.

Having offspring is an evolutionary mechanism designed to pass genes onto the next generation in order to allow for adaptation to the environment. We call this mechanism evolution. However, given that we are approaching an era of supreme mastery of genetic engineering, we humans will be able to dictate our own advancement without the use of inefficient mechanisms such as reproduction.

In essence, we will have greater control over our own future.

In addition to enabling evolution, reproducing for humans has also always meant growing your own inner circle, be it your tribe, your clan, or more hands to work the farm. Human beings are interdependent social creatures. We physically and emotional gain from support of those around us. Will this be the case in a transhuman environment? I can not say, but it is still true today and it is hard for me to imagine that life will become a single player game and as long as it does not, there is no tighter social circle than family to build around you. Maybe the nights of staying awake with a screaming newborn will end up shortening my lifespan but I am banking on a net benefit in the long haul.

[openeyes]

I like the idea of having 10 or more descendents: kids, grand kids, great grand children, and so on, some biologically related to me, some adopted, but all having a chance to know me. While it would largely be for the joy of building a close group of people (close friendships are also key), it doesn't hurt to have multiple generations of people that care about you and want to keep you around/bring you back.

[Pour_la_Science]

Definitely not

it doesn't hurt to have multiple generations of people that care about you and want to keep you around/bring you back.

What I don't like about this is the reason why these people care about you: Not because they've chosen you, felt that you were the good persons for them, but only because you gave birth to them.
My reasoning about that is that children are linked to their parents because they are feeble, without defense in the beginning, and parents help them to overcome this time (which last for 18 years at least). The link for your parents is due to this feeling of gratitude during this moment of infancy. But who are the cause of this phase: the parents. who created at the beginning feeble human beings who can be dependent on them.

Edited by Pour_la_Science, 14 December 2010 - 08:13 AM.

[openeyes]

But who are the cause of this phase: the parents. who created at the beginning feeble human beings who can be dependent on them.

If people could be created that aren't "feeble human beings" in the beginning I'd be fine with that. Biological kinship isn't a necessity for me, but I don't know for how many generations a family could continue solely via adoption. Maybe cloning, virtual reality, and nanotech will take care of this.

Until the Singularity happens or I have/adopt kids, I'm focused on building strong relationships with people who have already been born that I enjoy knowing, some a few years younger than me, some a few decades older.

[motif]

more kids? hell know, I have enough of those little bastards already ...

I'm concerned with only one thing, some nations have way to many children then they should
and that can put soon white race in minority and danger. That's why I'll go tonight seed some babies anyway...

[Scottza]

Definitely not

it doesn't hurt to have multiple generations of people that care about you and want to keep you around/bring you back.

What I don't like about this is the reason why these people care about you: Not because they've chosen you, felt that you were the good persons for them, but only because you gave birth to them.
My reasoning about that is that children are linked to their parents because they are feeble, without defense in the beginning, and parents help them to overcome this time (which last for 18 years at least). The link for your parents is due to this feeling of gratitude during this moment of infancy. But who are the cause of this phase: the parents. who created at the beginning feeble human beings who can be dependent on them.

Parents who do a good job make huge sacrifices, the parent/child bond is more than the parent creating a feeble being to be dependent on them in order to extract a feeling of gratitude, parents who are as shallow as this will have a shallow relationship (or negative relationship) with their kids. 18 years of shared experience adds up to more than 'thanks for changing my poopy diapers'. Childhood was a blissful time of my life, my parents helped make it that way and I am grateful for this for so many more reasons than I was defenseless and they helped me overcome it.

[Brafarality]

I answered that I'd like to say no at the moment, but am not sure if it's definitely no.
My biggest thing is the way one has to behave to parent goes against my innate tendencies and morality:

I don't like ordering people, ever, no matter what, and, my better half, who is well along the way of raising a child, says that, early on, you have to give arbitrary orders and can't do what I do: guilt trip people into doing the right thing. Later on, perhaps 10-18 years old, explaining what is right and then expecting a child to do it may work, but, apparently, has no chance of working very early on.
I also expect people to know what is right from a very young age. No excuses. So, I would have a hard time accepting the selfishness and rapaciousness that is often associated with children, and which I have experienced firsthand. I would unconsciously form a negative opinion and would radiate it toward a blameless person. That would make Me the uncool one.
donjoe's reply was very persuasive as well.

[JohnD60]

I said definitely yes.

I can understand and respect the views of those that don't want to have children.

What I don't understand, is how someone over the age of 30 can not know if they want children or not. How can someone be 30+ years old and not know if they want children? (this is a pet peeve of mine based upon personal experiences, this mini rant is not directed at anyone on this board).

[SloMoSandy]

I said definitely yes.

I can understand and respect the views of those that don't want to have children.

What I don't understand, is how someone over the age of 30 can not know if they want children or not. How can someone be 30+ years old and not know if they want children? (this is a pet peeve of mine based upon personal experiences, this mini rant is not directed at anyone on this board).

I guess 30+ these days is an age where a lot of people still just "enjoy the moment", as "pressure" to "settle down" in society is becoming rarer so people just are... well unsure. Tho' I've never found a certain "number" to be some kind of a "sweet spot" for "realizations of life". .

Back on topic, I recently had a chance to witness my friend, who is 32, with two kids already and struggling quite a lot to arrange everything "in order". He seems to have less and less time for himself, for his hobbies and for me it's difficult to imagine that kind of sacrifice, very very difficult, as like someone said here already - I have created so much meaning for myself in my life that there's just no empty space for something that demanding, and this seems to increase either, like - more things to experience, more fields to enjoy, places to visit, people to know, to try, I'm just so hungry for life... and while kids may be one of these experiences, well, I just don't find that appealing, at all.

Edited by VidX, 27 December 2010 - 11:43 PM.

[openeyes]

My fiancee and I have always known we wanted kids, long before we met (though I think I could still be happy without them, as I am now), but we've also both been very careful to not have to deal with pregnancy until we're at a point where it would be a happy situation. We've been together 3 years now, are engaged for July, and plan to wait on kids until we're at a point where we could each support both of us without working excessive hours, which may be in about another 3 years.

If we weren't fairly sure we wanted kids, it'd be much easier to not have any, or adopt/foster later if we change our minds, since there's minimal pressure for us to have kids and most of our friends in their 30s have chosen not to (we're in our mid-20s). I consider it best to have kids sooner than later biologically. Elle and I both had dads that were 38 when we were born. They didn't take care of themselves and by our teen years weren't in good enough shape to do much with us.

If having kids, do so early with a good support network and stay fit. Otherwise there are lots of other great things to do with your time.

[The Immortalist]

No, absolutely not. I don't want to contribute even further to the population problem we have, and I am extremely impatient with kids as it is. I don't like how ignorant they are, even though I realise I myself was once like them. There is so much more I could do with my time than raise a child. My ambition is immortality and being the self-centered person that I am, I have no intention of sharing my genes with anyone.

I think we should instead focus on improving the lives of individuals that are already living.

I feel I have enough purpose in life that I do not need to fill an empty hole by having a child, like many of my acquaintances do.

Mind, I completely agree.

Elus I completely understand how you feel about this topic but I just have a few concerns about this type of view of not having children (which I myself once had).

My greatest concern is that if us people who support Indefinite lifeextension/ transhumanism / libertarianism etc do not have kids who will be left to carry on our dream? Who else but our own children are most influenced by our beliefs? Do you understand where I'm coming from Elus? If we don't reproduce this world might be overrun with religious conservatives.

Edited by The Immortalist, 08 January 2011 - 06:48 PM.

[The Immortalist]

Human life wouldn't be interesting and may not continue to advance quite as much or as rapidly if we didn't bring new life into the world.

A long-lived individual, full of experience and knowledge, can contribute far more than an ignorant newborn infant.

Having offspring is an evolutionary mechanism designed to pass genes onto the next generation in order to allow for adaptation to the environment. We call this mechanism evolution. However, given that we are approaching an era of supreme mastery of genetic engineering, we humans will be able to dictate our own advancement without the use of inefficient mechanisms such as reproduction.

In essence, we will have greater control over our own future.

It almost sounds as if you have no appreciation for the reason why you are here today. I believe the creation of new life is an amazing thing that we should never take for granted. Having children can bring us closer and teach us lessons sometimes necessary for further personal growth. There are so many positives that come out of having children and starting families. I highly doubt we will ever stop reproducing. There will be a large part of the population of the human race that will continue to do so, regardless of what other "more advanced" humans are doing.

Are you one that thinks trans-humanism is the ultimate goal, not just life-extension or achieving indefinite lifespan(I realize the only way to achieve an indefinite life span may be to achieve trans-humanism). Trans-humanism will be fine by me if it means we live incredibly long lives, as long as we don't lose those things that make human life beautiful and interesting-joy, laughter, sadness, courage, friendship, anger, pain, and most importantly, love. If you are one that wants to transform into a being that does not feel or experience these things, it makes me wonder what your life experience has been up until this point.

I'm also guessing you don't like kids much and you don't see the kinds of lessons we can learn from our children.

I guess there will be 2 races, those that choose trans-humanism(which doesn't sound very human to me) and those that still want to reproduce, love, feel joy, and experience the wonder of close intimate relationships with family, friends, and romantic partners.

Being human isn't that great. Not everyone wants to be human.