421 replies to this topic

[tina2]

Has anyone experienced an allergic reaction to Res?

RevGenetics P99 (495 mg T-Res per 1/4 tsp.)
Day one: 1/4 tsp. in water
Day two: 1/2 tsp. in mouth
Next morning I noticed large, warm, red, splotchy, slightly itchy areas around underarms, on breasts, stomach, groin area, buttocks. Looks very much like previous histamine-type allergic reaction from unknown food source. I stopped the Res, but after 4 days the redness, etc., is still there. Also, I read that Res destroys Candida. Could this be a die-off, detox reaction? Thanks for your input.

[krillin]

Has anyone experienced an allergic reaction to Res?

RevGenetics P99 (495 mg T-Res per 1/4 tsp.)
Day one: 1/4 tsp. in water
Day two: 1/2 tsp. in mouth
Next morning I noticed large, warm, red, splotchy, slightly itchy areas around underarms, on breasts, stomach, groin area, buttocks. Looks very much like previous histamine-type allergic reaction from unknown food source. I stopped the Res, but after 4 days the redness, etc., is still there. Also, I read that Res destroys Candida. Could this be a die-off, detox reaction? Thanks for your input.

http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=212336

[davidd]

Hello,

I've been reading a lot of the information on here and I figured it was about time to give back by simply sharing my experiences with resveratrol. I started taking resveratrol after my dad mentioned seeing the Barbara Walter's special on living to 150. I googled around and ended up on this site, where I learned a lot about the chemical. However, it wasn't really the life extension aspects that caused me to start taking it. More below...

(Note: Very verbose post to follow, but maybe it will help someone else, which is why I'm taking the time to write this.)

My stats:

37 years old
6'1", 195 pounds
blood pressure historically has been 140/90 (may be lower now, not enough data yet)
cholesterol 155 total, 35 HDL (slightly below standard range of 40-110), 108 LDL, 12 VLDL, 62 triglycerides
very little exercise and desk job
I don't drink anything with caffeine in it (only caffeine would be from things like chocolate)


I started (after a very short ramp up period) with the following:

4 Country Life Resveratrol Plus capsules per day (400mg resveratrol total)
(http://www.country-life.com/moreinfo.cfm?C...412#Ingredients)
This is 100mg resveratrol per capsule from 200mg knotweed extract (so 50% pure), but also has other things like grape seed extract, grape skin extract and pine bark extract in it.
This was taken as 200mg with breakfast and 200mg with dinner.

6 Doctor's Best Quercetin Bromelain capsules per day (1500mg Quercetin total)
http://www.drbvitamins.com/nutritionalprod...=43#Ingredients
This is 250mg Quercetin and 125mg Bromelain per capsule.
This was taken as 750mg with breakfast and 750mg with dinner.

2 multivitamins per day.
These are taken as 1 with breakfast and 1 with dinner.

I took the above for about 10 weeks.

Now, before the above, I took the following combination for several years, with the last few being pretty much what is below. Explanation to come.

2 multivitamins per day (1 with breakfast, 1 with dinner)
2 65mg iron supplements per day (1 with breakfast, 1 with dinner)

Currently, I am taking the following and have been for about 2 weeks:

6 Country Life Resveratrol Plus capsules per day (600 mg, 50% pure resveratrol 300mg with breakfast, 300mg with dinner)

2 multivitamins (1 with breakfast, 1 with dinner)


Why was I taking all the iron? I have a condition known as Gilbert's Syndrome (http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00743.html), where I have elevated bilirubin in my blood (normal range is .2 to 1.3mg/dL, and I'm anywhere from 1.5 to 3.1 in the past 6 years). For me (and some others with the condition) this causes fatigue and lack of energy. I also have abdominal pain that may be attributed to it. Also some jaundice of the eyes and bodily fluids (semen).

I could speculate on how my condition might affect conjugation of resveratrol, but it's complex and mostly beyond my lay person understanding.

Someone recommended iron several years ago, so I tried it and it worked. And this wasn't just a coincidence. I would *know* when I had forgotten to take the iron due to tiredness later in the day. It also lowered the jaundice of the eyes a bit, but there was still some yellowing of bodily fluids.

The other thing that would *completely* remove the yellowing of eyes/fluids was if I drank the night before. I rarely drink, but when I have in the past, it was remarkable how easily I could wake up in the morning and the bright whiteness of my eyes.

My simplistic guesses on why the iron/alcohol had these effects? Bilirubin is a very powerful antioxidant (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/...full/113/6/1776). I'm actually lucky, in a way, because I'm rarely sick and I think the bilirubin has something to do with that. Iron and alcohol cause oxidative stress and increase free radical activity. By taking iron (or drinking), I believe I was reverse scavenging my scavengers. In other words, I think I was cancelling out some of the excess bilirubin, which was "used up" protecting my body from the free radicals.

So if I found the secret formula for my situation, why did I stop taking the iron? I was worried about the damage the excess iron may have been doing to my body. I had aches and pains, mostly in my joints. Excess iron has been shown to exacerbate arthritis. I had a hunch for a while that the iron was to blame, but I really didn't want to go back to being tired all the time. Then, when reading all about resveratrol, I started wondering... Seemed like resveratrol was generally good for cells (very simplistic) and I read that some people noticed increased energy levels. Of course, the added benefit of potential life extension wasn't lost on me either, nor were the potential anti-viral/anti-cancer benefits.

This was enough for me to try it. I read about the lack of bioavailability too, and although I know there is much debate on this topic, I decided to take it with quercetin in the hopes to increase bioavailability. I switched, overnight, from taking an extra 130 mg of iron daily (in addition to the 30 mg from the two multivitamins, so over 10 times the recommended daily allowance total) to just taking the 30 mg of iron from the multivitamins and the resveratrol and quercetin. I also started my wife on a lower amount of quercetin and resveratrol to see if would help with her migraine/cluster headaches and some fatigue she had as well. Quercetin and bromelain are supposed to be anti-inflammatory.

Results:

- I noticed an almost immediate energy boost. I'm speaking of within 1 day of taking the resveratrol/quercetin. I had to go with little sleep for a few days and was not nearly as tired as I would have been before. I wasn't sleepy after lunch either, which was typical for me. My wife was skeptical, but she became a believer after she started taking it too (she had low energy from what the doctors thought was endometriosis, but surgery revealed a very deformed/enlarged appendix that was removed). She can't even take the quercetin at night, or she can't sleep. I don't have that problem. I can't explain this immediate energy boost, I can only report it. I gave a bottle of resveratrol to a lady at work and she reported the same thing.

- I also didn't get a type of headache that I used to get with lack of sleep/food. It seems to help my wife with her migraines, but she does still get them. Maybe just not as severe or often. She isn't as regular with her supplement taking. It varies from day to day.

- I'm not sure when this started happening, but I noticed that if I exerted myself, using muscles that I normally don't use, I wouldn't be sore the next day. For example, I played catch with a football with some teenagers, where we were throwing the ball long distances (long for me). We did this for a couple hours. I would have normally been very stiff and sore the next day. I hardly noticed anything the next day. This would have been maybe about a month (guessing) after I started taking the quercetin/resveratrol.

- My jaundice of the eyes remained low. Oddly enough, bodily fluids were tinted very bright yellow. I attributed this to the quercetin, which is yellow in color and have since proved this by taking quercetin out of my diet and all yellow is gone.

- Over a period of weeks, the aches and pains were gone. I don't feel like an old man when I get up from a sitting position or get out of bed in the morning. I attribute this to reducing the iron, but it could also be that the quercetin/bromelain/resveratrol sped the healing process too. No pains now that I've only been on resveratrol for the past 2 weeks either.

- My cholesterol has always been low when I've had it tested, and since I don't have it tested often, I can't say whether there has been an effect.

- My blood pressure has *always* been 140/90 (what used to be considered borderline high blood pressure, but now that they changed the ranges, they consider it high). Even when I was running cross country in high school, competing at a high level, and was in the best shape of my life, it was still 140/90. It hasn't increased since then and until recently hadn't decreased. A while after I started taking the quercetin/resveratrol, I noticed that I'd sometimes get a 130something/80something on the blood pressure machines at the drug stores. This was rare for me. I recently bought a home machine and will be monitoring and recording my blood pressure over time to see whether there are any trends. The good news is that my high bilirubin may be keeping my arteries limber, and my cholesterol isn't high, and my heart is in good shape (more on that further down), so it doesn't seem to be a big health risk for me.

- I injured my lower back doing some lifting in my early 20's. Every so often, it will flair up and I'll get pain in my back and down my left leg (sciatica). I've only had a tinge of this since starting the supplements. Now, it could be that I'm more active in the summer than in winter and it does happen more when I'm less active, but I do think it is abnormal for me to go this long without having this flair up.

- Now here's a rather interesting situation that will make this long post even longer. About a month ago, I was in a hardware store. I needed to get a roll of rubber membrane off the floor, under a low shelf. These rolls weigh 60 pounds and are about a foot in diameter and about 6 feet long. In other words, it was an awkward thing to get out of a tiny space and I had to lift it over a couple vertical bars that they had in place to keep the things from rolling into the isle. I was doing all the lifting with my upper body, bent over at the waste, with my butt in the air. I say this, because my upper body was basically upside down, which is probably important for what happened.

I lifted the thing up and it tried to roll out of my arms, so I had to lunge and catch it. I then walked down the isle and put it in the cart. Within several seconds, I noticed a pain the center of my chest. Pain and tightness. I wasn't too worried, but after a couple minutes, it was not going away and was getting worse. A quick google on my phone for heart attack symptoms got me even more worried. I was sweating and had a pain in the center of my chest that wasn't going away. The information I read said that time is of the essence if you are having a heart attack and that you should really get in an ambulance ASAP.

So here I was, a typical guy who never goes to the doctor, never has anything wrong with me, and yet I've got all the signs of a heart attack. After 5 to 10 minutes without the pain going away, I went out and sat in my car for a minute or two and then decided I better call 911. "Better safe than sorry" and "I've got two kids" won out over male ego.

I'd say it was about 20 minutes until I was in the ambulance from when this thing started. They gave me some nitroglycerin and did an EKG. The pain went down. I think they gave me more nitro before we got to the ER too. The EKG in the ambulance looked fine.

In the ER, they ended up doing another EKG, chest x-rays, and blood tests. Everything checked out fine. The doctor said that EKGs are only about 50% of the story, so he scheduled me for a echo stress test (ultrasound of heart before and after a treadmill stress test) the following Thursday. All this happened on a Saturday and they don't do them on the weekends.

I did talk over possible causes with him and my best guess (I think he agreed) is that it was probably an esophageal spasm brought on by the weird angle I was lifting at and the grunting which maybe caused some acid to make its way too far north.

There was pain in my chest for about a week or so afterward, but it was mild. Just enough that I knew it was there.

Now the interesting part. I go to the stress test the following Thursday. I'm thinking I'm going to get tired pretty fast, because I get very little exercise. I'm on the treadmill walking and walking and walking as they raise the speed/incline. I'm thinking, geez, how long is this test?? And they said I'd know when I can't go any further, but I certainly wasn't feeling anywhere close to that. The woman conducting the test is saying I'm doing wonderfully. At 5 mph, I'm still walking and they are saying it is odd to have someone walk at that speed instead of run. The incline was at 18% at that time (it started at 1.7mph and 10% incline). I'm watching the meter and watching my heart rate continue to slowly increase, but I'm still feeling fine. She keeps telling me the EKG is fine. When they switched it from 5 mph to 5.5, my heart rate was at 190 and I started to jog. A minute into this level, my heart rate was 197 and I'm still wondering just how long I should keep going, because I wasn't ready to drop over (although I wasn't perfectly fresh either). I had been on the treadmill for 15 minutes by this time.

I didn't really go into it thinking about my endurance, except that I wondered if I'd be able to go long enough for them to see what they wanted to see. As I watched my heart rate, I thought maybe I'd just get off when it got to 200 beats per minute. But when it reached 200, I still felt pretty good, so I kept going several more seconds. I then remembered that I had to be able to get off the treadmill quickly to lie down on the bed so that they could do the "after" ultrasound (they have to do this while the heart is still beating fast and it slows down quickly, so time is of the essence). I was concerned if I went to total exhaustion, I'd have a hard time getting off and into place quickly. I figured I better get off then and I did feel pretty tired by that point. I do think I could have gone another minute or so if I really wanted to push it though.

I stopped at 16:14 into the test, at 5.5 mph and 20% grade. My heart rate was 200 beats per minute. My blood pressure was 180/80 at the end (started at 140/80, with the diastolic dipping down at first and then going back up to 80 at the end, which I was told is a good sign of not truly having hypertension).

After the ultrasound (which would be analyzed later by a doctor and checked out fine), she went over the test results with me. She was amazed at how much effort I was able to put in and I don't think she believed that I don't exercise. I said something about how that was probably just because it is mostly elderly people they get in there and she said that they actually get a lot of younger people too, because the test is used for a multitude of things these days. And of course, the goals are age adjusted.

She showed me that my age predicted heart rate was 183, so I achieved 109% of my predicted maximum. The thing that surprised her the most was a measure called METS (stands for metabolic equivalents). I did some research on this since then. 1 METS would be the measure of oxygen used while at rest. The more activity, the more oxygen you use and the higher your METS value would be. Here is a chart of approximate METS values for various activities (http://healthfullife.umdnj.edu/archives/METsTbl.htm). Another way that athletes usually measure this is as VO2 max (maximum volume of oxygen consumed during high exertion).

For my age, the predicted METS is 11.0. I achieved 17.4 (this is either estimated, based on tests where actual oxygen consumed is measured and comparing you to the people who were measured, or it is calculated (even more of an estimate) based on different formulas, taking into account either the product of heart rate and blood pressure or time to exhaustion, like this calculator (http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/Treadmill.html)).

As you can see, I'm way above the METS predicted for my age. In fact, the chart she had in the office only went down to 20 years old and I was still above what was predicted for a 20 year old. If my memory serves correctly, a 20 year old was predicted as having a METS of 13.5 (correlates with the chart on this page http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5082201133.html). So I'm still above the typical 20 year old by a sizeable margin.

Now, if I hadn't stopped running 7 miles per day 19 years ago, I would have expected I'd be significantly above the norm, because the norm is all people, athletes or not. Without exercising, I'd still think I'd be a little above the norm, because I'm not grossly overweight. But it seems like I'm way the heck above the norm.

Converting METS to VO2 max, I'm at about 60 (measured as milliliters of oxygen consumed per kilogram of body weight per minute). I'm not sure how this can really be converted, since VO2 max includes your weight and METS doesn't. I'm guessing they just use average weights. The following page shows a chart of various VO2 max values for men and women, at various ages, both non-athletes and athletes (for a number of sports). It also has some good information about VO2 max and what may influence it. (http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html) It also talks about the theory that mitochondrial quantity and size may have some impact on VO2 max. A quick glance shows that I'm at about the average VO2 max level for most athletes for most sports (sometimes on the bottom, sometimes on the top, often in the middle).

This discrepancy (high METS and little exercise) intrigued me, so I did some googling on the resveratrol and endurance and ended up right back at the Sinclair studies. I had read about the mice running nearly twice as far as the control group, but I forgot about that tidbit until I came across it again after trying to make sense of this stress test.

So, the question is, why did I score so high on the test? Is it because of the supplements that I was taking for 10 weeks prior? Is it because of my high bilirubin? Is it because I walked as long as I could in the test and didn't run until I had to, thus conserving energy? (that still wouldn't explain my max heart rate, but could possibly explain total time until exhaustion) Is it because I was in very good shape when I was young? Or is it simply a matter of genetics. And of course, it could be a complex mixture of the above items or something completely different in my environment.

Now I've read studies where they tested to see if athletes could improve their endurance by taking resveratrol. From what I remember, it didn't show any improvement (I have however, seen one study where cyclists performed 3% better by taking quercetin for a while before a race). However, these were *athletes*. Were the Sinclair mice in good shape before the tests? Or were they slugs like me? Is it possible that resveratrol is bringing me up to the level of an athlete (in some ways) without me having to exercise (more, better mitochondria cells)? And if you are an athlete, do you reach that point through exercise and there is just a limit you can reach either through exercise or supplements, so athletes don't benefit as much from taking resveratrol (for endurance that is)?

And, of course, my max oxygen consumption isn't really the same as my endurance. I did go for a comparatively long time on the graded treadmill, but my heart rate was still on the way up when I stopped. I've read that this is what is expected when people are out of shape. If you are in good shape, they'd expect your heart rate to level off for a while before you have to stop.

Anyway, I just thought people might find this interesting. I'm guessing a lot of people on this site are in pretty good shape, because of the benefits to life extension/health. Although I'm not an obese, bed ridden person, I'm certainly much less active than most athletes on a day to day basis. It seems contradictory that I should get the results I did and I can't help but wonder what role the supplements played in this.

I would be interested in any studies done on inactive people and/or elderly people to see if resveratrol (and/or quercetin) have any effect on VO2 max or endurance.


A few weeks ago, I ran out of my resveratrol, so I ordered more. For about a week, I was only taking quercetin/bromelain. When my resveratrol came, I decided to try a test by cutting out the quercetin/bromelain and I've only been taking resveratrol. As I mentioned above, I've upped the amount from 400 mg/day to 600 mg/day. I still take my 2 multivitamins each day too. I'm still feeling good from an energy perspective, haven't noticed too many aches or pains, and my jaundice isn't pronounced. The bright yellow has gone away from my bodily fluids as well. I attribute that to the lack of quercetin.

I'm considering ordering some 98% or 99% pure resveratrol powder. I like the capsules, because they are easy to take, but are more expensive (about 3 times more expensive, per gram of resveratrol). I haven't had any problems (that I'm aware of) with the emodin in the 50% pure resveratrol I'm taking. And, although I know people shy away from the 50% pure resveratrol due to loose stools from the emodin, emodin itself seems to be a good thing for the body. In particular, it looks promising for its anticancer properties:

prostate cancer - http://www.blackwell...62.2008.00397.x
colon cancer - http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cbr.2007.0425
breast cancer - http://pen.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/32/2/190
lung cancer (might be useful for The First Immortal??) - http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17935676

I may still keep some 50% resveratrol in my diet for the emodin.


On one hand, I'm thinking that I've found a good thing and I shouldn't rock the boat. But I'm much too curious. I'm thinking of trying to alter the variables and see what I get. I do have a programmable treadmill at home (that I don't use), so I'd probably be able to set up a Bruce protocol stress test. I just need to get a heart rate monitor.

I'm open to suggestions/requests for test ideas. Right now, I plan on making changes to supplementation and then watching for changes in blood pressure, energy, jaundice and endurance (if I can set up the treadmill test). I'm thinking I should stay on a given regimen for at least two or three months to give it time to do whatever its going to do and for the previous regimen to "wear off".

I've decided I should start exercising again. However, I'm going to delay this until I've done all the "testing" I can think of with low activity levels. I'll probably then re-do the same tests with higher activity levels and see what happens.

If anyone has any questions about what I posted, I'll do my best to answer them.

Thanks,
David

[maxwatt]

Hello,

I've been reading a lot of the information on here and I figured it was about time to give back by simply sharing my experiences with resveratrol. I started taking resveratrol after my dad mentioned seeing the Barbara Walter's special on living to 150. I googled around and ended up on this site, where I learned a lot about the chemical. However, it wasn't really the life extension aspects that caused me to start taking it. More below...

(Note: Very verbose post to follow, but maybe it will help someone else, which is why I'm taking the time to write this.)

My stats:

......
David

The improved VO2 max as measured in your METS score is consistent with an increased number of mitochondria, which was one of the effects of resv. in mice. More mitochondria = more oxygen consumption capability

[davidd]

Hello,

I've been reading a lot of the information on here and I figured it was about time to give back by simply sharing my experiences with resveratrol. I started taking resveratrol after my dad mentioned seeing the Barbara Walter's special on living to 150. I googled around and ended up on this site, where I learned a lot about the chemical. However, it wasn't really the life extension aspects that caused me to start taking it. More below...

(Note: Very verbose post to follow, but maybe it will help someone else, which is why I'm taking the time to write this.)

My stats:

......
David

The improved VO2 max as measured in your METS score is consistent with an increased number of mitochondria, which was one of the effects of resv. in mice. More mitochondria = more oxygen consumption capability

maxwatt,

Thanks much for taking the time to comment. You were one of the people I was hoping would do so. From reading your posts, I consider you someone who is consistent and thoughtful in your analyses.

Thanks for the validation that my results may be related to the correlation between resveratrol and mitochondria cells.

It is interesting, however, that one of the links I gave (http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html) discusses what influences VO2 max and they seem to say that it is more about ability to push the blood/oxygen, than the consumptive ability of the cells:

...
Factors Affecting VO2 Max

There are many physiological factors that combine to determine VO2 max but which of these are most important? Two theories have been proposed:

Utilization Theory
This theory maintains that aerobic capacity is limited by lack of sufficient oxidative enzymes within the cell's mitochondria (3). It is the body's ability to utilize the available oxygen that determines aerobic capacity. Proponents of this theory point to numerous studies that show oxidative enzymes and the number and size of mitochondria increase with training. This is coupled with increased differences between arterial and venous blood oxygen concentrations (a-vO2 difference) accounting for improved oxygen utilization and hence improved VO2max.

Presentation Theory
Presentation theory suggests that aerobic capacity is limited not predominantly by utilization, but by the ability of the cardiovascular system to deliver oxygen to active tissues. Proponents of this theory maintain that an increase in blood volume, maximal cardiac output (due to increased stroke volume) and better perfusion of blood into the muscles account for the changes in VO2max with training.

So what plays the greater role in determining an athlete's VO2 max - their body's ability to utilize oxygen or supply oxygen to the active tissues?

In a review of the literature, Saltin and Rowell (7) concluded that it is oxygen supply that is the major limiter to endurance performance. Studies have shown only a weak relationship between an increase in oxidative enzymes and an increase in VO2 max (8,9,10). One of these studies measured the effects of a 6-month swim training program on aerobic function. While oxidative enzymes continued to increase until the end, there was no change in VO2 max in the final 6 weeks of the program (10).
...


Now let's say that the resveratrol (and possibly other chemicals I was taking) did create changes in my mitochondria cells (possibly in number and in make-up). And let's say the above is true too (that consumptive ability of mitochondria don't help athletes increase their VO2 max). If so, then it would make me wonder whether the supplements are creating/modifying mitochondria in a way that makes them different than those produced through exercise alone??

And of course, there is still the possibility that there is a limit to consumptive ability of the mitochondria (no matter how they are created), and maybe the athletes in the study above reached that limit early on or before the study took place?

Comments/Thoughts?

Also, any ideas on how I'd go about testing some of these hypotheses? I wonder how long it takes to lose mitochondria cells? This article seems to say that resveratrol induced mitochondria live longer than "regular" mitochondria (at least in mice).

http://money.cnn.com...99158/index.htm

...
The mouse studies also gave hints that resveratrol induces basic metabolic changes akin to those that CR does. One of the most intriguing was the production of fresh mitochondria, the key components of cells that serve as power generators; they essentially burn sugar in slow motion to release energy. But like coal-burning power plants, mitochondria also pollute. In particular, they spew highly reactive chemicals called free radicals, which damage DNA and other important molecules in cells. Over time the radicals deteriorate the mitochondria themselves, which degrades their efficiency, causing yet heavier production of free radicals. The end result is a cell-degrading snowball effect that is thought to be a major cause of aging.

Resveratrol's ability to engender new mitochondria is especially exciting because it seems the fresh ones are more efficient than the worn mitochondria they replace, hence are less prone to churn out damaging radicals. CR appears to do the same thing it's like replacing a smoky old coal burner with a cleaner-burning gas-fired plant. Resveratrol's effect on mitochondria may be enough by itself to account for much of the compound's riveting effects in animal studies. In particular, the effect would seem to account for the abrupt Olympic-caliber running abilities observed in mice.
...

If the above is true, that's great, of course (and would even reduce my carbon footprint! *grins* (re: coal vs gas)). But it does make it harder for an individual to conduct some personal experiments, since I'm guessing "super mitochondria" take a while to die off, even without SIRT1 kicking in to keep them healthy?

In other words, if I want to test the VO2 max inducing capabilities of these various supplements, how long to do I need to go without the previous supplement mix before moving on to the next combination? Or do I just make the switch and then monitor over time to see if I trend up or down? If so, how long should I stay on each regimen?

And maybe the most important aspect of all this is the fact that I am not taking *huge* doses of resveratrol. I was only at 400mg before my stress test. This brings up all sorts of questions in my mind... Was it the combination of supplements that helped me wake up SIRT1? Is SIRT1 not really responsible for resveratrol's effect on mitochondria, and it is just that both SIRT1 and mitochondria are independently helped by resveratrol, with less resveratrol being needed for the mitochondria effect? Or maybe people don't need huge doses of resveratrol? Or maybe it is just something about me?

Comments greatly appreciated for this guinea pig.

David

[maxwatt]

In trained athletes, performance is not limited by the ability to deliver blood to tissue. Joe Friel in several of his training manuals for cycling made the assertion, I've no reason to doubt him. Rather one trains the muscle tissue to better use the oxygen, to be less sensitive to the build-up of waste products, and to synchronize firing of muscles s o they perform more efficiently. Couch potatoes undergoing training are probably a different matter.

More mitochondria will mean the ability to burn more oxygen. And resveratrol probably induces healthy mitochondria to multiply, rather than the inefficient ones.

It would be interesting to do some studies and look at the muscle tissue with resveratrol supplementation. Actually, Auwerx' paper in November 2006 Science had just pictures of muscle tissue. Compared to controls, the rodents had more, and bigger, mitochondria per square cm of tissuel, and each muscle cell had more mitochondria. I fail to see how that could not contribute to greater VO2 max. Not to say other factors may be influential, but this looks like the biggie to me.

[davidd]

In trained athletes, performance is not limited by the ability to deliver blood to tissue. Joe Friel in several of his training manuals for cycling made the assertion, I've no reason to doubt him. Rather one trains the muscle tissue to better use the oxygen, to be less sensitive to the build-up of waste products, and to synchronize firing of muscles s o they perform more efficiently. Couch potatoes undergoing training are probably a different matter.

More mitochondria will mean the ability to burn more oxygen. And resveratrol probably induces healthy mitochondria to multiply, rather than the inefficient ones.

It would be interesting to do some studies and look at the muscle tissue with resveratrol supplementation. Actually, Auwerx' paper in November 2006 Science had just pictures of muscle tissue. [highlighting added by davidd] Compared to controls, the rodents had more, and bigger, mitochondria per square cm of tissuel, and each muscle cell had more mitochondria. I fail to see how that could not contribute to greater VO2 max. Not to say other factors may be influential, but this looks like the biggie to me.

Yeah, it just seems like too much coincidence to not be *the* biggie.

I'd like to see studies comparing mouse muscle tissue that has been enhanced with resveratrol to that of mouse muscle tissue that has been enhanced by training the mice on the treadmill *without* supplementation. And, of course, while we're at it, mice that were exercised *and* supplemented (both supplemented before exercise and those that exercised first and then were supplemented).

I'm really curious whether there is a physical difference in the mitochondria created through these two different mechanisms. Of course, how efficient the mitochondria are or whether they also produce chemicals to cancel out the "bad stuff" they spit out when they are creating energy would also be interesting, but maybe a bit more difficult to determine conclusively?


In a follow-up to my original post... I am sore today. I spent yesterday walking around the MN State Fair (about 9 hours worth of walking, some of it carying my 2 year old daughter). I'm not horribly sore, but enough to notice it and I haven't noticed much of this type of soreness after exertion this summer, since I started taking the supplements. It was about 2 weeks ago that I changed from quercetin and bromelain pills and resveratrol pills to just resveratrol pills alone (and upped the resveratrol from 400 mg to 600 mg).

Wonderings I have... Was it the quercetin and bromelain that kept my inflamation down? Or maybe the combined anti-inflamatory capabilities of resveratrol and quercetin and bromelain? Or maybe the quercetin and bromelain increased the bioavailability of the resveratrol more than taking the extra 200mg is? And, of course, maybe I would have been this sore before too? (not exactly a controlled study)

I think I'm going to try to include soreness inducing activity in my "experiments" to see if I can make this more of an apples to apples comparison rather than the dissimilar incidents I currently have to go by. I wonder if a week inbetween these activities would be enough or if I should make it two weeks so that the "benefits" of the activies wears off? I'm thinking things like lifting weights with legs for 60 minutes or doing push-ups or sit-ups.

[krillin]

I'm 42 and been on resveratrol about one year. The only autoimmune issues that I have are allergies, that I know about. Never had any type of joint problem before taking resveratrol except for the left shouder that has bothered me on and off since my 20's (Most likely a result of high school football). I don't know if you guys remember me posting about joint pain in the hips way back in December. Again that was something I have never had but after about 2 months that went away. This thing with the feet is different, it really hurts when I take my shores off and walk in my bare feet, mostly on the ball and heal area. Also, as I am sitting here the feet feel heavy and there is some very mild discomfort.

I guess I should just drop Resv and see what happens. But you got to admit that it is very interesting that someone else would mention such a rare thing (ie. feet start hurting for no reason).

Here's something that I don't fully understand but figured I'd throw out anyway. When my sister started on CoQ10, the only thing she noticed was that her feet stopped hurting after long runs. I figure that running causes foot swelling and CoQ10 somehow alleviates it. CoQ10 reduces edema in heart failure, but I believe that's a result of improved heart function so there's no reason why it should be expected to do that in healthy people. But then again, I was able to find several anecdotes of statins causing foot swelling and tendinitis. It's unclear if the tendinitis is from the swelling or from MMP inhibition. This page is interesting.

I was put on Atorvastatin (Lipitor) about 2 months ago (cholesterol was 6 in uk). About three weeks ago I thought I had flu - aches and pains all over but particularly in hips. It hurt to sit, it hurt to stand and even to lie down. I also seem to have had ongoing stomach problems for several weeks - even cut out wheat and milk. The third main specific symptom (apart from generally feeling ill) was heel pain in my right foot; I have put gel inserts into my shoes and arranged to see a podiatrist and even sometimes just walk on the ball of my right foot so that I don’t put my heel down. Today, I put in “Lipitor stomach hip pain heel pain” into a search engine and arrived at this forum. It’s a shame I didn’t find it earlier. I will not be taking statins any more and will be seeing my doctor on tuesday. Thanks to all those people who have posted on this forum.

J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 1995 Oct;22(4):151-4.
Effect of running on volume of the foot and ankle.
Cloughley WB, Mawdsley RH.
Health Tour, Andover, MA, USA.

Increases in volume of the lower extremities have been demonstrated in some exercises of short duration and varied intensities. The purpose of this study was to determine if running on a treadmill for 15 minutes increased volume of the foot and ankle when compared with walking. Twenty-one volunteers walked during one treatment session and ran during another session. Volumetric measurements were taken before and after each exercise. A change score was calculated for each subject for both sessions. A t test for related measures demonstrated a statistically significant difference (p < or = 0.05), with a larger volume occurring after running. Increases in volume most likely would not create problems in healthy individuals. Increases, however, may be harmful in individuals with circulatory disorders or with edema as a sequela of a foot or ankle injury.

PMID: 8535472

Arthritis Rheum. 2008 Mar 15;59(3):367-72.
Tendinous disorders attributed to statins: a study on ninety-six spontaneous reports in the period 1990-2005 and review of the literature.
Marie I, Delafenêtre H, Massy N, Thuillez C, Noblet C; Network of the French Pharmacovigilance Centers.
Rouen University Hospital, 76031 Rouen Cedex, France. isabelle.marie@churouen.fr

OBJECTIVE: To date, statins have more often been considered a safe medication. However, with the wider use of statins, severe side effects have also been reported to occur in statin-treated patients, especially myositis and rhabdomyolysis. Currently, however, statin-associated tendon impairment has only been described anecdotally. The aim of this retrospective study was to evaluate tendon manifestations occurring in statin-treated patients. METHODS: All reports in which a statin was listed spontaneously as a causative suspect medication of tendon complications in the network of the 31 French Pharmacovigilance Centers from 1990-2005 were included in this study. Data collection included patient characteristics and tendon adverse effects (time to onset of adverse effects, pattern, site of injury, and outcome). The percentage of the reports was further calculated for each statin. RESULTS: Data were collected from 96 patients with a median age of 56 years; patients exhibited tendinitis (n = 63) and tendon rupture (n = 33). Tendinopathy more often occurred within the first year after statin initiation (59%). Tendon manifestations were related to atorvastatin (n = 35), simvastatin (n = 30), pravastatin (n = 21), fluvastatin (n = 5), and rosuvastatin (n = 5). Statin was reinitiated in 7 patients, resulting in recurrence of tendinopathy in all cases. CONCLUSION: Our series suggests that statin-attributed tendinous complications are rare, considering the huge number of statin prescriptions. We suggest that prescribers should be aware of tendinous complications related to statins, particularly in risky situations, including physical exertion and association with medications known to increase the toxicity of statins.

PMID: 18311771

Am J Cardiol. 2007 Jul 1;100(1):152-3.
Tendon rupture associated with simvastatin/ezetimibe therapy.
Pullatt RC, Gadarla MR, Karas RH, Alsheikh-Ali AA, Thompson PD.
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Connecticut, Farmington, Connecticut, USA.

A case of spontaneous biceps tendon rupture in a physician during therapy with the combination of simvastatin and ezetimibe (Vytorin) is reported. Rechallenge produced tendinopathy in the contralateral biceps tendon that abated with drug discontinuation. Tendon rupture generally occurs in injured tendons. Physiological repair of an injured tendon requires degradation and remodeling of the extracellular matrix through matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs). Statins are known to inhibit MMPs. It was hypothesized that statins may increase the risk of tendon rupture by altering MMP activity. In conclusion, statins may increase the risk of tendon rupture by altering MMP activity.

PMID: 17599460

[SearchHorizon]

krillin:

The swelling mentioned in above cited paragraphs, I would guess, has to do with the body's attempt to compensate for damages by increasing blood flow. In other words, I don't think swelling is the cause of the tendonitis, but rather, a body's response to stress (which may cause tendon damage).

I used to suffer from elbow pain (due to lifting). Strangely, as it turns out, that can be ameliorated by using forearm wraps. Wrapping forearm constricts blood flow in the forearm area, but increases it in the elbow area.

My theory is that during heavy lifting or running, there is significant amount of toxic residues from exertion. Unless removed or neutralized, this causes damages to tendon-like tissues.

------------

Interesting thing about CoQ10. I have heard of benefiticial effects, if taken before exercising, on reducing muscle pain. It might help with my joint pains.

Edited by SearchHorizon, 25 August 2008 - 06:15 PM.

[Stokestack]

Sounds like plantar fasciitis. I have had this to varying degrees for 15 years. It had largely subsided until I started resveratrol. I quit the stuff after two months, but the plantar fasciitis has returned and is accompanied by occasional stabbing pains that I never felt before, even at its worst.

Plantar fasciitis is an infuriating condition that can seriously reduce the quality of your life. You don't really want to go anywhere or do anything, and that includes vacation.

Based on my experience and the similar reports that are emerging, I'd say resveratrol threatens the very vigor and quality of life that it's supposed to extend.

[Anthony_Loera]

I have had this to varying degrees for 15 years.

Biotivia has a 50% and a 98% res, which were you using?

A

[Dmitri]

2 multivitamins per day.
These are taken as 1 with breakfast and 1 with dinner.

I took the above for about 10 weeks.

Now, before the above, I took the following combination for several years, with the last few being pretty much what is below. Explanation to come.

2 multivitamins per day (1 with breakfast, 1 with dinner)
2 65mg iron supplements per day (1 with breakfast, 1 with dinner)

Why are you taking so much iron? I learned from this site that taking too much is bad for you; we already get enough from our diets so supplementation is not necessary. This is why a lot of multi's (such as LEF, AOR and GNC) are iron free.

[Stokestack]

Biotivia has a 50% and a 98% res, which were you using?

The 98%.

[Stokestack]

Biotivia has a 50% and a 98% res, which were you using?

Let me take that back: It looks like the 50%. It's the Bioforte 500. It doesn't list any ingredients other than polygonum cuspidatum.

[Anthony_Loera]

Biotivia has a 50% and a 98% res, which were you using?

Let me take that back: It looks like the 50%. It's the Bioforte 500. It doesn't list any ingredients other than polygonum cuspidatum.

Bioforte? It's the 50%.

unfortunately, the 50% in products, maybe a cause for several issues because of what maybe in the other 50% ... From Bioforte to Longevinex these all use 50%. These might be the reasons why resveratrol at 50% might be getting some people to consider not taking res all together.

It might not be the resveratrol, but to rule it out, anyway you can try 98 or 99%?

A

[luv2increase]

These might be the reasons why resveratrol at 50% might be getting some people to consider not taking res all together.

What all is in the 50% which and what all bad effects are attributed to these substances?

[maxwatt]

These might be the reasons why resveratrol at 50% might be getting some people to consider not taking res all together.

What all is in the 50% which and what all bad effects are attributed to these substances?

emodin, physcion, chrysophanol for starters. They are intestinal irritants, sometimes used as laxatives. They may have other systemic effects. Emodin does seem to kill intestinal cancer cells in vitro. These substances occur in many plants, but in low concentrations. The amount in a 50% resveratrol extract at doses over 100 mg is higher than I can find studies for. I think any problem would be self-eliminating if taking a high dose.

WRT to joint pain: I find resveratrol relieves joint pain. Tendon pain seems to me what many were complaining about-- the two can be confused subjectively, as tendons attach near the joints. I did get tennis elbow (tendinitis) from clearing brush on my huge .75 acre ranch about two months ago. After 7 weeks, it's about 85% gone, even though I take 2 grams of 98% resveratrol daily. A friend of mine who does not take supplements contracted tennis elbow two years ago, said it took almost a year to heal. YMMV.

Edited by maxwatt, 04 September 2008 - 08:51 PM.

[tintinet]

When I took up running again, about 2 years ago, I developed severe plantar fasciitis, first involving one foot, then the other. I agree it really ruins one's existence, while in full bloom. However, I've subsequently been taking gram quantities of t-resveratrol without any tendonitis of any type for over a year.

[hmm]

A couple of anecdote-toids regarding my tendinitis/RSV experience:

First got tendinitis 2 years ago around the time I started taking about 16-32 mg rsv (50% Jarrows) per day. Two years later, the tendinitis is at about the same level pain/nuisance-wise, though for about the past 6 months I have been taking about 100 times my original daily dosage. Maybe the 16 mg chelated all the copper I have, so that the 2 grams I now take can't chelate any more?

In June I was taking a gram rsv per day. After playing long basketball sessions my achilles heel ached enough so that I felt compelled to rub a DMSO/rsv solution on it for a few minutes to soothe it. In July, I stepped up my dosage per plan, to 1.3 grams, and then to 1.6 in August (and now 2 for this month). But in all basketball played after June, the heel has hardly had any pain at all afterwards, not even close to needing DMSO. The anti-inflammatory effect of the higher dosages seems to have compensated for whatever sensitivity might have originally been caused by the rsv.

[davidd]

2 multivitamins per day.
These are taken as 1 with breakfast and 1 with dinner.

I took the above for about 10 weeks.

Now, before the above, I took the following combination for several years, with the last few being pretty much what is below. Explanation to come.

2 multivitamins per day (1 with breakfast, 1 with dinner)
2 65mg iron supplements per day (1 with breakfast, 1 with dinner)

Why are you taking so much iron? I learned from this site that taking too much is bad for you; we already get enough from our diets so supplementation is not necessary. This is why a lot of multi's (such as LEF, AOR and GNC) are iron free.

Why *was* I taking so much, is the question. I dropped the extra 130mg of iron about 3 months ago. The answer to your question was further down in my original post (http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=258905). I can understand why you may not have seen it, since it was very verbose. I've included the appropriate part here:

...
Why was I taking all the iron? I have a condition known as Gilbert's Syndrome (http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00743.html), where I have elevated bilirubin in my blood (normal range is .2 to 1.3mg/dL, and I'm anywhere from 1.5 to 3.1 in the past 6 years). For me (and some others with the condition) this causes fatigue and lack of energy. I also have abdominal pain that may be attributed to it. Also some jaundice of the eyes and bodily fluids (semen).

I could speculate on how my condition might affect conjugation of resveratrol, but it's complex and mostly beyond my lay person understanding.

Someone recommended iron several years ago, so I tried it and it worked. And this wasn't just a coincidence. I would *know* when I had forgotten to take the iron due to tiredness later in the day. It also lowered the jaundice of the eyes a bit, but there was still some yellowing of bodily fluids.

The other thing that would *completely* remove the yellowing of eyes/fluids was if I drank the night before. I rarely drink, but when I have in the past, it was remarkable how easily I could wake up in the morning and the bright whiteness of my eyes.

My simplistic guesses on why the iron/alcohol had these effects? Bilirubin is a very powerful antioxidant (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/...full/113/6/1776). I'm actually lucky, in a way, because I'm rarely sick and I think the bilirubin has something to do with that. Iron and alcohol cause oxidative stress and increase free radical activity. By taking iron (or drinking), I believe I was reverse scavenging my scavengers. In other words, I think I was cancelling out some of the excess bilirubin, which was "used up" protecting my body from the free radicals.

So if I found the secret formula for my situation, why did I stop taking the iron? I was worried about the damage the excess iron may have been doing to my body. I had aches and pains, mostly in my joints. Excess iron has been shown to exacerbate arthritis. I had a hunch for a while that the iron was to blame, but I really didn't want to go back to being tired all the time. Then, when reading all about resveratrol, I started wondering... Seemed like resveratrol was generally good for cells (very simplistic) and I read that some people noticed increased energy levels. Of course, the added benefit of potential life extension wasn't lost on me either, nor were the potential anti-viral/anti-cancer benefits.

This was enough for me to try it. I read about the lack of bioavailability too, and although I know there is much debate on this topic, I decided to take it with quercetin in the hopes to increase bioavailability. I switched, overnight, from taking an extra 130 mg of iron daily (in addition to the 30 mg from the two multivitamins, so over 10 times the recommended daily allowance total) to just taking the 30 mg of iron from the multivitamins and the resveratrol and quercetin. I also started my wife on a lower amount of quercetin and resveratrol to see if would help with her migraine/cluster headaches and some fatigue she had as well. Quercetin and bromelain are supposed to be anti-inflammatory.
...

There is a correction to the above. I said (indirectly) that the multi-vitamins have 15mg of iron, but they really have 18mg. The RDA is 18mg, not 15mg. That means I was taking just over 9 times the RDA and now I'm at 2 times the RDA.

I was taking less than 2mg/kg. I am currently taking about .4mg/kg ("point 4"). Iron deficiency anemia therapeutic dose is 3-6mg/kg as mentioned in this page (http://www.emedicine...ng/page3_em.htm). So I figured I was still relatively safe from iron poisoning. And, the whole reason I was taking it was because I had excess bilirubin and as I mentioned in my original post, I was hoping the excess iron was being cancelled out by the excess bilirubin ... or rather the reverse is what I was hoping for. If my theory was correct (still a big "if", but it did serve my purpose), then I wasn't really exposed to as much iron (or the bi-products of iron = free radicals) as a "normal" person would be given the same dose.

To your point about iron being bad for you, I'd say, in general, yes, too much iron is bad for you. Of course, too much of a lot of things is bad for you, but I would put iron in a different category than most things -- there are specific nuances about iron as well. This page lists diseases that may happen as a result of or may take advantage of too much iron accumulating in various places in the body (http://www.medicardi...0infections.htm).

The other thing to keep in mind with iron is that a certain percentage of the population (4.12% according to my math, based on data from this study - http://jama.ama-assn...act/285/17/2216) have hemochromatosis, caused by certain genetic defects, causing the body to absorb too much iron in a cummulative fashion. There are other, more rare, genetic defects than the common ones that can cause this too and some of the genetic defects are higher in certain ethnic groups. Of course, I also believe I've read that iron deficiency is about 5 times higher than hemochromatosis, albeit maybe not as serious.

Then, of course, there is the risk of iron causing and/or feeding cancer. There have been some studies that show that red meat may contribute to cancer due to the iron content (and possibly due to non-iron reasons). The link between cancer and red meat is debated by some, however (http://www.foxnews.c...,144326,00.html).

Personally, I do not recommend for anyone to take beyond the RDA of iron without consulting a medical doctor. (I don't recommend any particular diet/supplement regimen period, but people are free to learn from what I relate and make their own decisions.) Mine is a unique situation, so please don't base your iron intake on mine in this regard. I lowered my intake way down for the very reason that it can be dangerous and I believe that there is a risk for accumulation over time. I have no way to know for sure, but I think it contributed to some aches and pains (could just be getting older too, but I'm 37, which isn't ancient). I am still taking twice the RDA, but I will probably lower that back down to just the RDA in the next year. I'm still tweaking my regimen.

I will also say that, personally, if I had cancer or was at high risk for cancer, I would opt to limit my iron intake to be on the safe side. Same goes for cardiovascular disease. As you can see if you look back at my original post, my heart and related systems appear to be in exceptional shape and especially so, considering I do not exercise regularly (I have a MET score of 17.4 and high oxygen consumptive ability has been shown to be an extremely good indication of low risk of mortality (all types, not just heart disease) http://www.medscape....warticle/569106 People interested in living a long time might find this intriguing *grins*). Of course, I did not know this when I started taking the iron, but it *may* be an indication that I didn't damage my cardiovascular system by taking the iron.

Getting back to the main point of my original post, however, my high oxygen consumption ability may be due to increased/bigger/better mitochondria from taking resveratrol. If so, and since I don't exercise, then I'm not really sure if I truly am at low mortality risk. Most people who have high METS scores get that way from exercising. Does an artificially high METS score still mean low mortality? I don't know. Are mitochondria produced from resveratrol consumption "special" and is it these special resveratrol mitochondria that actually lead to increased lifespan in mice? I dont know. Does SIRT1 activation cause the creation of these theoretically "special" mitochondria? I don't know. Maybe resveratrol affects mitochondria independent of SIRT1 activation. *Maybe* caloric restriction does the same thing to mitochondria? Does anyone know if calorie restricted mice become marathon runners?

I do know that the studies claim that SIRT1 activation is what leads to the mitochondria changes, but does anyone know how the researchers know it is causation and not resveratrol affecting both SIRT1 and mitochondria directly?

Two final clarifications about my original post:

1) I mentioned that drinking alcohol (and I mean just several few beers) has had the effect of reducing my jaundice and that I can wake up early without feeling as sluggish as I usually would (due to the Gilbert's Syndrome). I hypothesized in my post that the bilirubin was being "used up" fighting the free radicals from the alcohol. I've since found literature stating that alcohol can induce creation of more of the particular enzyme that metabolizes bilirubin (UGT1A1) and which I normally have less of and/or it isn't as active as it would be in someone else. (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10794513) I now think this may be a better explanation for why my jaundice (and fatigue) are completely removed (temporarily) when I drink.

And *no*, this is not an endorsement for drinking alcohol if you have liver enzyme issues. It is simply my attempt at an explanation so that people can learn more about bilirubin conjugation by enzyme UGT1A1. It is relavent for resveratrol, because this is the second most active enzyme in resveratrol metabolization as well.

I will post the other clarification in my next post, because it attempts to tie together Gilbert's Syndrome, resveratrol metabolization and *possibly* anti-cancer properties of resveratrol and I think it will be of interest to people taking or considering taking resveratrol.

David

Edited by davidd, 04 September 2008 - 11:07 PM.

[hmm]

Biotivia has a 50% and a 98% res, which were you using?

Let me take that back: It looks like the 50%. It's the Bioforte 500. It doesn't list any ingredients other than polygonum cuspidatum.

Bioforte? It's the 50%.

unfortunately, the 50% in products, maybe a cause for several issues because of what maybe in the other 50% ... From Bioforte to Longevinex these all use 50%. These might be the reasons why resveratrol at 50% might be getting some people to consider not taking res all together.

It might not be the resveratrol, but to rule it out, anyway you can try 98 or 99%?

A

Just about every anecdote reporting tendinitis issues seems to involve rsv that is mixed with other stuff. I think it is entirely reasonable to think that the non-rsv substances might be involved in causing the tendinitis. However, I want to suggest another possibility:
From what I am reading, and from my own experience, the tendinitis problems seem to occur relatively quickly (within a few weeks) and often with very low dosage levels. A typical scenario seems to be a person who has heard some good things about rsv, and is wondering what it might do for them personally.

So what do they do? Do they immediately plunk down a thousand bucks for some high quality, tested powder, just so they can perform a quick experiment with rsv? My speculation is that instead, most people head to their favorite supplement provider and spend considerably less on a bottle of 50% rsv, just to get an idea of what benefits they might get from it. Within a few weeks of "testing the water" this way, a small subset of these folks end up with tendinitis.

What I am suggesting is that these tendinitis cases might be associated with 50% rsv not because of the impurity of the rsv, but perhaps simply because impure rsv is how the vast majority of people get their start into rsv.

[kenj]

In my resveratrol/tendonitis experience, it did not matter if I used 50% or 99% extracts, - both extracts seemed to produce flare ups. However I must stress, I completely stopped the supplementation, and the tendonitis went away. Today no problems with resveratrol, IME.

[Stokestack]

I'm not going to mess with 98% until my symptoms go away, if they ever do. The sad part is that problems like this often take months or years to diminish.

[DaffyDuck]

I'm not going to mess with 98% until my symptoms go away, if they ever do. The sad part is that problems like this often take months or years to diminish.

Are you taking fish oil? It should be a given with anyone suffering from inflammatory problems.

[krillin]

I do know that the studies claim that SIRT1 activation is what leads to the mitochondria changes, but does anyone know how the researchers know it is causation and not resveratrol affecting both SIRT1 and mitochondria directly?

Cell. 2006 Dec 15;127(6):1109-22.
Resveratrol improves mitochondrial function and protects against metabolic disease by activating SIRT1 and PGC-1alpha.
Lagouge M, Argmann C, Gerhart-Hines Z, Meziane H, Lerin C, Daussin F, Messadeq N, Milne J, Lambert P, Elliott P, Geny B, Laakso M, Puigserver P, Auwerx J.
Institut de Génétique et de Biologie Moléculaire et Cellulaire, CNRS / INSERM / ULP, 67404 Illkirch, France.

Diminished mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation and aerobic capacity are associated with reduced longevity. We tested whether resveratrol (RSV), which is known to extend lifespan, impacts mitochondrial function and metabolic homeostasis. Treatment of mice with RSV significantly increased their aerobic capacity, as evidenced by their increased running time and consumption of oxygen in muscle fibers. RSV's effects were associated with an induction of genes for oxidative phosphorylation and mitochondrial biogenesis and were largely explained by an RSV-mediated decrease in PGC-1alpha acetylation and an increase in PGC-1alpha activity. This mechanism is consistent with RSV being a known activator of the protein deacetylase, SIRT1, and by the lack of effect of RSV in SIRT1(-/-) MEFs. Importantly, RSV treatment protected mice against diet-induced-obesity and insulin resistance. These pharmacological effects of RSV combined with the association of three Sirt1 SNPs and energy homeostasis in Finnish subjects implicates SIRT1 as a key regulator of energy and metabolic homeostasis.

PMID: 17112576

[SearchHorizon]

I am experiencing some bad effects from 50% resv ... When I lift heavy and, at the same time, when I take resv 50%, pains in my forearm and back increase. I have not yet used 99% pure resveratrol ...

Edited by SearchHorizon, 08 September 2008 - 07:03 AM.

[davidd]

I'm not sure where to ask this, but since one of the side effects of resveratrol is supposedly big/better/more numerous mitochondria, I'll try here.

I've searched on the net, but I can't seem to find the answer.

Does anyone know how long the typical mitochondria lives? I mean, obviously, if a cell dies, the mitochondria within that cell die too, but how long do the mitochondria typically last within the cell? Is it days, weeks, months? I'm also guessing it is different for different types of cells. I'm preferrably looking for the lifespan in muscle cells. This too probably involves variability based on the types of muscles, but I'd love any information and I figured someone on here might know.

Why I am asking...

As I've posted before, I seem to have abnormal endurance, given the fact that I don't exercise regularly. This was noticed after taking resveratrol and quercetin/bromelain supplements for 10 weeks, at which point I scored very high on oxygen consumption ability on a treadmill stress test. About a week after that, I switched to just resveratrol. I've now been on just resveratrol for about 6 weeks.

Two weeks ago, I paddled about 8 miles down the St. Croix river, in a canoe, with my wife in front, me in back and two kids on the floor in the middle. This was downstream for most of the way, BUT it was a southern wind, so I had to paddle just to keep moving forward, nearly the entire way. My wife didn't paddle much (long story), so I was mostly solo. I was passing most of the other canoes on the river (tons of them on the river that day), and most had two people paddling. There were times when I would get a little tired after *really* pushing it, but I'd recover quickly and be able to go at a very fast pace shortly afterward. This was a 3 hour ordeal and we didn't know how far it was to the end until we reached it.

The last leg of it (maybe 3/4 of a mile?) was *very* windy (choppy enough that my wife was getting wet from the waves breaking against the boat), and by that point, I had to have my wife help, because I was getting too tired to keep the wind from flipping us around by paddling super hard on one side of the canoe, only to have to flip to the other side to keep it from happening there next.

Oh, and most importantly, I haven't paddled a canoe for several *years*!

Now, as I've mentioned before, I do have an enzyme irregularity in gene UGT1A1, that is likely slowing down my resveratrol phase 2 metabolization. So that, coupled with taking quercetin for a few months this summer may have given me a better dosing of unconjugated resveratrol than is typical (I'm theorizing on this, based on the fact that quercetin has been shown to inhibit enzyme activity from gene CYP1A2, which is responsible for phase 1 metabolism of resveratrol).

The reason I am asking about the life of mitochondria, is because I changed my supplemention, yet I appear to still have very good endurance. I'm wondering how long the mitochondria live, so if the endurance goes down, I can see if that correlates with the length of time since I changed my regimen. If the endurance stays strong, longer than mitochondria are supposed to live, then it may be that I can take resveratrol alone to get these effects.

Additionally, I am almost positive that resveratrol plus quercetin/bromelain helped me feel better (with respect to aches and pains) than resveratrol alone. It took a few weeks of stopping the quercetin before I noticed aches and pains again. I can only guess that is due to the additive effect of taking a sizable amount of quercetin daily, thus it took a while for my body to use it up. Or it could just be that it took a while for whatever is causing my aches and pains (nothing debilitating, mind you) to build up to the point where I noticed it. And besides the day to day aches and pains, I also feel more aches and pains after exertion than I seemed to have earlier in the summer when I was also taking the quercetin/bromelain. I do, however, feel lessened aches/pains after exertion now than I did before taking any of these supplements. Maybe due to better mitochondria from resveratrol (that scavange their own free radicals) or maybe due to non-mitochondria related anti-inflammation properties of resveratrol.

Now, the fact that I'm noticing aches and pains more presently doesn't mean that I'm not getting mitochondria building benefit out of resveratrol without quercetin (I'll be trying some home stress tests on the treadmill to find out if my endurance is trending up or down), but I wouldn't be surprised if it does end up proving out that I'm trending down. One theory I have is that the inflammation and free radicals produced through exertion (extreme or not) could kill off the mitochondria (reduce the numbers) and that the anti-inflammation and added antioxidant boost of the quercetin/bromelain could have been protecting the resveratrol induced mitochondria. I'll report back if I show a trend up or down when I start doing the tests.

Anyway, if anyone has any data on life span of mitochondria, I'd love to hear it.

David

[jCole]

Been a month of taking 1g a day of 99% pure RSV.


Something I've noticed.

RSV seems to favor Glucose.... when in Ketosis.... RSV absolutely makes me feel like shit. For the first time in years, I actually felt like I was getting sick with cold like symptoms and actually ended up getting a cold sore on the inside of my nose. Stopped RSV and immediately felt better by the next day.

Tried again....same results.

Last two weeks, I left ketosis and started eating carbs again.

RSV now seems to enjoy being in my system. No negative side effects, definitely increased energy levels and my workouts and MMA training sessions are noticeably more intense. My recovery is slightly less, but this isn't an issue as I can still muscle through it with no problems. No increased mood, but I've never had an issue with mood/depression/stress anyways.

I suppose the biggest positive effect would be the lack of negative effects I received when burning ketones.


I've been carb shifting back and forth weekly. for over a year now and have my body and how it feels and reacts down to an exact science... so I'm fairly positive by the effects I'm experiencing from RSV on ketones vs glucose is fairly accurate in my case.


Will continue to experiment and report back.

Edited by jCole, 15 September 2008 - 01:00 PM.

[scottenter]

This is to collect and summarize anecdotal resveratrol reports. I'll try to modify this top post as people post their experience in this thread. Please make posts as brief as possible and follow the format below. Please look for your name in the list below and post to make a change. A change in dosage means a new entry. A relatively close variation in dosing should be averaged to one number. Please delete this list from your message when posting a reply.

People reporting: 29

Benefits:
improved energy/endurance: 13
improved mood: 10
decreased appetite/weight loss: 5
improved hair growth: 5 maybe's
decreased OsteoArthritis (OA): 3
decreased coffee: 2
decreased non-OA pains: 1
require less sleep: 1
increased sex drive: 1

Problems:
increased tendinitis: 6
increased non arthritis, non tendinitis pains: 2
increased obsessive: 2
increased RA arthritis: 1
increased aggression: 1
increased jittery: 2 at beginning (supposedly only on 50%)
laxative: 2 at beginning (supposedly only on 50%)

Please Post in this Format:
name, RESV in g/day, purity, summary of effects

alterego, 0.2,, no RA problems, better mood
alterego, 1.2, 99%, exacerbated rheumatoid arthritis, best mood
anthony_loera,2,99%,improved mood,attitude,well being, recovery, normal (revgenetics supplier)
bixbyte,1,,more hair and nail growth
drmz, 0.6,, knees and ankles
edward, 1,, tennis elbow (increased tennis playing)
edward, 2.3,, no tennis=no tenniselbow
enzyme, 0.6,, hamstring tendinitis
eternalone, 0.3,, improved energy, loss of desire for alcohol, appetite suppressant
fearfrost, 0.5,, quercetin definite energy boost
full_membr, 2,,"crawling out of my skin" with paxil for a day or two when upping the dose from 1 g/d. settled back to 1.5
health_nutty, 0.4,, improved mood and energy, definite appetite suppressant
kenj, 1.1, 99%, achilles tendinitis (run 30-40 mins)
makoss, 0.5,, jolt of energy, appetite suppressant
markymark, 0.225,25%, more energy
matt, ,, ankle tendinitis
maxwatt, 3,, well being and increased energy that returns to baseline after awhile, fewer colds, less arthritis
missminni, 1.75,98%,no more lower back pain from sitting, better knees, cured morton's nueroma, better mood, more agile
missminni_dad,,,improved OA
proteomist, 0.5, 50%, stimulant and laxative effects that subsided
quarter, 0.5, 50%, achilles tendinitis (high impact sprint training)
rhc124, 1.2, 50%, hip pain (worked wonders for my depression and anxiety)
scorpe, 0.8,, fewer colds, less knee pain, increased sex drive
shadowrun, 0.2,, in morning imrpoved energy and alertness, slight headache...will not take at night
stephe_b,2,,back pain, between shoulder blades
tayo,2,,nothing reported, weight lifter experimenting with 5g/d
tintinet, 5, 99%, tennis elbow, hair, "due to playing guitar obsessively" "persistent buoyant mood and general sense of robust physical and mental wellness", decreased appetite, less sleep needed
velopismo, 2.25,98%,increased endurance and power output (road cycling as measured by a powertap), general feeling of well being, aggression, reduced body weight set-point 4%, possible knee pain from applying DMSO/Resv to knee (but could have been by over stressing knee during a sprint).
velopismo_wife,1,98%,very apparent increased energy, weight loss
xanadu, 0.07, 50%, improved energy and mood
zawy, 0.9,, improved energy, hair, loss of desire for coffee, increased obsessive, less arthritis, possible male-pattern baldness improvement after 6 months at 0.2 g/d

Caveats: The laxative effect reported by a few may be due to the emodin in 50% formulations. Tendinitis and arthritis may result from an incresae in activity from an increase in mood/energy/aggression.

What brands of Resveratrol are people using who reported here? I would like to give it a try and would like to who sells quality resveratrol.

[SearchHorizon]

I have tried 2 brands, both resulting in increased joint pains.

(1) Vital Prime (99% pure)
(2) 50% from BAC

It is unmistakable. The pain was worse with the Vital Prime.
I am going to try RevGenetics.

Edited by SearchHorizon, 22 September 2008 - 12:42 PM.