421 replies to this topic

[missminni]

I have tried 2 brands, both resulting in increased joint pains.

(1) Vital Prime (99% pure)
(2) 50% from BAC

It is unmistakable. The pain was worse with the Vital Prime.
I am going to try RevGenetics.

Sorry if you've answered this question before, but how old are you?
and what kind of exercise do you do?

[tintinet]

tintinet, dose 4-6 grams/day RSV, 99% purity synthetic or extract. No effects noted.

[SearchHorizon]

I have tried 2 brands, both resulting in increased joint pains.

(1) Vital Prime (99% pure)
(2) 50% from BAC

It is unmistakable. The pain was worse with the Vital Prime.
I am going to try RevGenetics.

Sorry if you've answered this question before, but how old are you?
and what kind of exercise do you do?

I am just about to turn 45. I have been weight training for the past 20 years.

Currently, I weight train 4 days out of a week and perform cardio-vascular exercises 2 days out of the week.

Because of the weight training (constant stress on my joints), I am sensitive to pains and inflammation on my elbows, knees, etc.

I am careful about keeping track of food I eat, exercise I perform, etc., and I have it down to science in pinning down what food/supplement causes what response in my body.

BTW, I have tried RevGenetics, and I have not noticed increased joint pains yet ...

--------------------

P.S. So far, I have noticed lots of diarrhea with both Vital Prime's (99%) and BAC's (50%) resveratrol. I have not had the same problem with RevGenetic's.

Edited by SearchHorizon, 23 September 2008 - 01:09 AM.

[mustardseed41]

I have tried 2 brands, both resulting in increased joint pains.

(1) Vital Prime (99% pure)
(2) 50% from BAC

It is unmistakable. The pain was worse with the Vital Prime.
I am going to try RevGenetics.

Sorry if you've answered this question before, but how old are you?
and what kind of exercise do you do?

I am just about to turn 45. I have been weight training for the past 20 years.

Currently, I weight train 4 days out of a week and perform cardio-vascular exercises 2 days out of the week.

Because of the weight training (constant stress on my joints), I am sensitive to pains and inflammation on my elbows, knees, etc.

I am careful about keeping track of food I eat, exercise I perform, etc., and I have it down to science in pinning down what food/supplement causes what response in my body.

BTW, I have tried RevGenetics, and I have not noticed increased joint pains yet ...

--------------------

P.S. So far, I have noticed lots of diarrhea with both Vital Prime's (99%) and BAC's (50%) resveratrol. I have not had the same problem with RevGenetic's.

Might try cutting back on your weight training days.

[sherrieblossom]

The one negative arthritis effect is for rheumatoid arthritis, not osteoarthritis. Resveratrol can negatively impact some autoimmune diseases, as activating Sirt1 exacerbates them. Distinguish between the two forms of arthritis.

Diarrhea is inevitable with large dose from 50% extract, due to the inevitable emodin content. However, even pure resveratrol can cause diahrrea b causing the intestinal caco cells to excrete chloride. This can be controlled by certain herbs, or by the use of butyrate which is available as calcium butyrate, or as a prescription medication. HMB may also contain enough butyrate o prevent said diahrrhea.

This is to collect and summarize anecdotal resveratrol reports. I'll try to modify this top post as people post their experience in this thread. Please make posts as brief as possible and follow the format below. Please look for your name in the list below and post to make a change. A change in dosage means a new entry. A relatively close variation in dosing should be averaged to one number.

Benefits:
improved energy: 11
improved mood: 7
decreased appetite: 3
decreased arthritis: 2
decreased coffee: 2
increased sex drive: 1

Problems:
increased tendinitis: 6
increased other joint pains: 2
increased arthritis: 1
increased obsessive: 2
increased aggression:

Please Post in this Format:
name, RESV in g/day, purity, summary of effects

rhc124, 1.2, 50%, hip pain (worked wonders for my depression and anxiety)
quarter, 0.5, 50%, achilles tendinitis (high impact sprint training)
kenj, 1.1, 99%, achilles tendinitis (run 30-40 mins)
alterego, 1.2, 99%, exacerbated rheumatoid arthritis, best mood
alterego, 0.2,, no RA problems, better mood
matt, ,, ankle tendinitis
drmz, 0.6,, knees and ankles
enzyme, 0.6,, hamstring tendinitis
tintinet, 5, 99%, tennis elbow, "Seems to be due to playing guitar obsessively" " persistent buoyant mood and general sense of robust physical and mental wellness"
edward, 1,, tennis elbow (increased tennis playing)
edward, 2.3,, no tennis=no tenniselbow
maxwatt, 3,, well being and increased energy that returns to baseline after awhile, fewer colds, less arthritis
health_nutty, 0.4,, improved mood and energy, definite appetite suppressant
makoss, 0.5,, jolt of energy, appetite suppressant
eternalone, 0.3,, improved energy, loss of desire for alcohol, appetite suppressant
zawy, 0.9,, improved energy, loss of desire for coffee, increased obsessive, less arthritis, possible male-pattern baldness improvement after 6 months at 0.2 g/d
fearfrost, 0.5,, quercetin definite energy boost
shadowrun, 0.2,, in morning imrpoved energy and alertness, slight headache...will not take at night
scorpe, 0.8,, fewer colds, less knee pain, increased sex drive
markymark, 0.225,25%, more energy
proteomist, 0.5, 50%, stimulant and laxative effects that subsided
xanadu, 0.07, 50%, improved energy and mood

Caveats: The laxative effect reported by a few may be due to the emodin in 50% formulations. Tendinitis and arthritis may result from an incresae in activity from an increase in mood/energy/aggression.

Hi Max. Referring to your thread regarding resveratrol having negative effects on arthritis, I'd like to ask you more in detail where you found this bit of information and how you can substantiate your claim. I have a bf that has been taking resveratrol for many years now and just recently he's had what could be the arthritis you referred to, but until a biopsy is performed, it's only specualtion for the moment. If there's any information you can lead me to pertaining to the negative effects of resveratrol on auto immune diseases, please let me know. Thanks!
SherrieSeng

[maxwatt]

Hi Max. Referring to your thread regarding resveratrol having negative effects on arthritis, I'd like to ask you more in detail where you found this bit of information and how you can substantiate your claim. I have a bf that has been taking resveratrol for many years now and just recently he's had what could be the arthritis you referred to, but until a biopsy is performed, it's only specualtion for the moment. If there's any information you can lead me to pertaining to the negative effects of resveratrol on auto immune diseases, please let me know. Thanks!
Sherrie

There was a paper claiming that Sirt1 activation aggravated autoimmune diseases. Resveratrol activates Sirt1. Many of us speculated that resveratrol would therefor aggravate auto-immune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, and that Sirt1 suppressors such as Niacinamide (nicotinamide) would potentially be helpful for such conditions. Perhaps some of the negative effects people have reported for resveratrol are due to auto-immune responses after Sirt1 activation?

The situation is not that simple, as the abstract below should demonstrate. One could experiment with Sirt1 blockers such as quercetin or niacinamide to see if they alleviated the condition. This paper even claims that niacinamide can prevent type I diabetes:

Curr Drug Metab. 2007 Apr;8(3):245-66.
Pharmacological targeting of IDO-mediated tolerance for treating autoimmune disease.Penberthy WT.
University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, OH 45237, USA. WTPENBER @ YAHOO.COM

Cells at the maternal-fetal interface express indoleamine 2,3 dioxygenase (IDO) to consume all local tryptophan for the express purpose of starving adjacent maternal T cells of this most limiting and essential amino acid. This stops local T cell proliferation to ultimately result in the most dramatic example of immune tolerance, acceptance of the fetus. By contrast, inhibition of IDO using 1-methyl-tryptophan causes a sudden catastrophic rejection of the mammalian fetus. Immunomodulatory factors including IFNgamma, TNFalpha, IL-1, and LPS use IDO induction in responsive antigen presenting cells (APCs) also to transmit tolerogenic signals to T cells. Thus it makes sense to consider IDO induction towards tolerance for autoimmune diseases in general. Approaches to cell specific therapeutic IDO induction with NAD precursor supplementation to prevent the collateral non-T cell pathogenesis due to chronic TNFalpha-IDO activated tryptophan depletion in autoimmune diseases are reviewed. Tryptophan is an essential amino acid most immediately because it is the only precursor for the endogenous biosynthesis of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD). Both autoimmune disease and the NAD deficiency disease pellagra occur in women at greater than twice the frequency of occurrence in men. The importance of IDO dysregulation manifest as autoimmune pellagric dementia is genetically illustrated for Nasu-Hakola Disease (or PLOSL), which is caused by a mutation in the IDO antagonizing genes TYROBP/DAP12 or TREM2. Loss of function leads to psychotic symptoms rapidly progressing to presenile dementia likely due to unchecked increases in microglial IDO expression, which depletes neurons of tryptophan causing neurodegeneration. Administration of NAD precursors rescued entire mental hospitals of dementia patients literally overnight in the 1930's and NAD precursors should help Nasu-Hakola patients as well. NAD depletion mediated by peroxynitrate PARP1 activation is one of the few established mechanisms of necrosis. Chronic elevation of TNFalpha leading to necrotic events by NAD depletion in autoimmune disease likely occurs via combination of persistent IDO activation and iNOS-peroxynitrate activation of PARP1 both of which deplete NAD. Pharmacological doses of NAD precursors repeatedly provide dramatic therapeutic benefit for rheumatoid arthritis, type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis, colitis, other autoimmune diseases, and schizophrenia in either the clinic or animal models. Collectively these observations support the idea that autoimmune disease may in part be considered as localized pellagra manifesting symptoms particular to the inflamed target tissues. Thus pharmacological doses of NAD precursors (nicotinic acid/niacin, nicotinamide/niacinamide, or nicotinamide riboside) should be considered as potentially essential to the therapeutic success of any IDO-inducing regimen for treating autoimmune diseases. Distinct among the NAD precursors, nicotinic acid specifically activates the g-protein coupled receptor (GPCR) GPR109a to produce the IDO-inducing tolerogenic prostaglandins PGE(2) and PGD(2). Next, PGD(2) is converted to the anti-inflammatory prostaglandin, 15d-PGJ(2). These prostaglandins exert potent anti-inflammatory activities through endogenous signaling mechanisms involving the GPCRs EP2, EP4, and DP1 along with PPARgamma respectively. Nicotinamide prevents type 1 diabetes and ameliorates multiple sclerosis in animal models, while nothing is known about the therapeutic potential of nicotinamide riboside. Alternatively the direct targeting of the non-redox NAD-dependent proteins using resveratrol to activate SIRT1 or PJ34 in order to inhibit PARP1 and prevent autoimmune pathogenesis are also given consideration.

PMID: 17430113

Full paper available HERE

Edited by maxwatt, 25 September 2008 - 12:13 PM.

[davidd]

Hi Max. Referring to your thread regarding resveratrol having negative effects on arthritis, I'd like to ask you more in detail where you found this bit of information and how you can substantiate your claim. I have a bf that has been taking resveratrol for many years now and just recently he's had what could be the arthritis you referred to, but until a biopsy is performed, it's only specualtion for the moment. If there's any information you can lead me to pertaining to the negative effects of resveratrol on auto immune diseases, please let me know. Thanks!
Sherrie

There was a paper claiming that Sirt1 activation aggravated autoimmune diseases. Resveratrol activates Sirt1. Many of us speculated that resveratrol would therefor aggravate auto-immune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, and that Sirt1 suppressors such as Niacinamide (nicotinamide) would potentially be helpful for such conditions. Perhaps some of the negative effects people have reported for resveratrol are due to auto-immune responses after Sirt1 activation?

The situation is not that simple, as the abstract below should demonstrate. One could experiment with Sirt1 blockers such as quercetin or niacinamide to see if they alleviated the condition. This paper even claims that niacinamide can prevent type I diabetes:

<snip...below from study quote>
Alternatively the direct targeting of the non-redox NAD-dependent proteins using resveratrol to activate SIRT1 or PJ34 in order to inhibit PARP1 and prevent autoimmune pathogenesis are also given consideration.

I'm confused. If SIRT1 activation inhibits PARP1 and if quercetin/etc. inhibit SIRT1, then quercetin/etc. should result in more PARP1, hence promote autoimmune pathogensis.

Yet, as this study indicates, quercetin/etc. inhibit PARP1. Do they somehow do this, despite also inhibiting SIRT1?

http://jn.nutrition....act/137/10/2190

...
Biochemical, Molecular, and Genetic Mechanisms
Dietary Flavones and Flavonoles Are Inhibitors of Poly(ADP-ribose)polymerase-1 in Pulmonary Epithelial Cells¹<A name=RFN2>^,2
Liesbeth Geraets^3,*, Harald J. J. Moonen⁴, Karen Brauers⁴, Emiel F. M. Wouters⁵, Aalt Bast³ and Geja J. Hageman<sup>4



3</sup> Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology and ⁴ Department of Health Risk Analysis and Toxicology, Faculty of Health, Medicine and Life Sciences, Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands; and ⁵ Department of Respiratory Medicine, Academic Hospital Maastricht, 6202 AZ Maastricht, The Netherlands





^* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: l.geraets@farmaco.unimaas.nl <script type=text/javascript> . The nuclear enzyme poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase-1 (PARP-1), which was initially known to be highly activated by oxidative stress-induced DNA strand breaks, has been shown to be involved in the pathophysiology of acute and chronic inflammatory diseases. PARP-1 deficiency in mice led to the discovery of its coactivating function in the nuclear factor-kappa B-mediated gene expression and in addition, pharmaceutical inhibition of PARP-1 was shown to reduce the production of inflammatory mediators. In this study, the in vitro PARP-1-inhibiting effect of various flavonoids was investigated. The flavonoids myricetin, tricetin, gossypetin, delphinidin, quercetin, and fisetin were identified as significant inhibitors of the purified enzyme. Further evaluation of these compounds in N-methyl-N'-nitro-N-nitrosoguanidine-treated human pulmonary epithelial cells showed that the formation of the poly(ADP-ribose) polymers, as well as the decreased NAD⁺ levels, was reduced by quercetin, fisetin, and tricetin. Finally, IL-8 production of LPS-stimulated human pulmonary epithelial cells could be significantly reduced by these flavonoids. The results of this study indicate that specific flavonoids have PARP-1-inhibiting activity in addition to the earlier described antioxidant effects. PARP-1 inhibition and preservation of cellular NAD⁺ and energy production could play a role in the antiinflammatory activity of these specific flavonoids. In addition, these results indicate additional mechanisms by which flavonoids can exert antiinflammatory activity. Furthermore, these results indicate possibilities to use food-derived flavonoids in the treatment of chronic inflammatory diseases.
^...



David

[maxwatt]

Hi Max. Referring to your thread regarding resveratrol having negative effects on arthritis, I'd like to ask you more in detail where you found this bit of information and how you can substantiate your claim. I have a bf that has been taking resveratrol for many years now and just recently he's had what could be the arthritis you referred to, but until a biopsy is performed, it's only specualtion for the moment. If there's any information you can lead me to pertaining to the negative effects of resveratrol on auto immune diseases, please let me know. Thanks!
Sherrie

There was a paper claiming that Sirt1 activation aggravated autoimmune diseases. Resveratrol activates Sirt1. Many of us speculated that resveratrol would therefor aggravate auto-immune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, and that Sirt1 suppressors such as Niacinamide (nicotinamide) would potentially be helpful for such conditions. Perhaps some of the negative effects people have reported for resveratrol are due to auto-immune responses after Sirt1 activation?

The situation is not that simple, as the abstract below should demonstrate. One could experiment with Sirt1 blockers such as quercetin or niacinamide to see if they alleviated the condition. This paper even claims that niacinamide can prevent type I diabetes:

<snip...below from study quote>
Alternatively the direct targeting of the non-redox NAD-dependent proteins using resveratrol to activate SIRT1 or PJ34 in order to inhibit PARP1 and prevent autoimmune pathogenesis are also given consideration.

I'm confused. If SIRT1 activation inhibits PARP1 and if quercetin/etc. inhibit SIRT1, then quercetin/etc. should result in more PARP1, hence promote autoimmune pathogensis.

Yet, as this study indicates, quercetin/etc. inhibit PARP1. Do they somehow do this, despite also inhibiting SIRT1?

http://jn.nutrition....act/137/10/2190

...
Biochemical, Molecular, and Genetic Mechanisms
Dietary Flavones and Flavonoles Are Inhibitors of Poly(ADP-ribose)polymerase-1 in Pulmonary Epithelial Cells¹<A name=RFN2>^,2
Liesbeth Geraets^3,*, Harald J. J. Moonen⁴, Karen Brauers⁴, Emiel F. M. Wouters⁵, Aalt Bast³ and Geja J. Hageman<sup>4



3</sup> Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology and ⁴ Department of Health Risk Analysis and Toxicology, Faculty of Health, Medicine and Life Sciences, Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands; and ⁵ Department of Respiratory Medicine, Academic Hospital Maastricht, 6202 AZ Maastricht, The Netherlands





^* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: l.geraets@farmaco.unimaas.nl <script type=text/javascript> . The nuclear enzyme poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase-1 (PARP-1), which was initially known to be highly activated by oxidative stress-induced DNA strand breaks, has been shown to be involved in the pathophysiology of acute and chronic inflammatory diseases. PARP-1 deficiency in mice led to the discovery of its coactivating function in the nuclear factor-kappa B-mediated gene expression and in addition, pharmaceutical inhibition of PARP-1 was shown to reduce the production of inflammatory mediators. In this study, the in vitro PARP-1-inhibiting effect of various flavonoids was investigated. The flavonoids myricetin, tricetin, gossypetin, delphinidin, quercetin, and fisetin were identified as significant inhibitors of the purified enzyme. Further evaluation of these compounds in N-methyl-N'-nitro-N-nitrosoguanidine-treated human pulmonary epithelial cells showed that the formation of the poly(ADP-ribose) polymers, as well as the decreased NAD⁺ levels, was reduced by quercetin, fisetin, and tricetin. Finally, IL-8 production of LPS-stimulated human pulmonary epithelial cells could be significantly reduced by these flavonoids. The results of this study indicate that specific flavonoids have PARP-1-inhibiting activity in addition to the earlier described antioxidant effects. PARP-1 inhibition and preservation of cellular NAD⁺ and energy production could play a role in the antiinflammatory activity of these specific flavonoids. In addition, these results indicate additional mechanisms by which flavonoids can exert antiinflammatory activity. Furthermore, these results indicate possibilities to use food-derived flavonoids in the treatment of chronic inflammatory diseases.
^...



David

As I said, the situation is not that simple. There are multiple sirtuins -- at least 7 in humans. Resveratrol activates all of them. Quercetin "mildly" inhibits Sirt1, according to one of Sinclair's early papers. It is possible Qercetin is mixed, inhibiting Sirt1 but activating at least some of the other six. Quercetin is also if memory serves me, a COX2 inhibitor, so would cause some immediate pain relief. Or there could be another confounding factor: EGCG in vitro inhibits Sirt1, under oxidizing conditions. But otherwise it stimulates Sirt1. So take anti-oxidants with your green tea extract..... It is possible that some unknown co-factor can influence the effect of quercetin, changing it from an inhibitor to an activator. I am speculating; the fact is we do not really have answers. If your experience with quercetin is different than mine was, let me know.

[davidd]

As I said, the situation is not that simple. There are multiple sirtuins -- at least 7 in humans. Resveratrol activates all of them. Quercetin "mildly" inhibits Sirt1, according to one of Sinclair's early papers. It is possible Qercetin is mixed, inhibiting Sirt1 but activating at least some of the other six. Quercetin is also if memory serves me, a COX2 inhibitor, so would cause some immediate pain relief. Or there could be another confounding factor: EGCG in vitro inhibits Sirt1, under oxidizing conditions. But otherwise it stimulates Sirt1. So take anti-oxidants with your green tea extract..... It is possible that some unknown co-factor can influence the effect of quercetin, changing it from an inhibitor to an activator. I am speculating; the fact is we do not really have answers. If your experience with quercetin is different than mine was, let me know.

It seems like the more I learn about all this, the less I feel I know.

I sent you some info in a PM, but for the group....

My experience is different with quercetin, but I also have my own unique biochemistry, so it is tough to compare. It *seems* I have gotten the mitochondrial biogenesis benefit, yet I was taking a *lot* of quercetin (1500 mg daily, half with breakfast, half with dinner) and relatively little resveratrol (400mg, again, half with breakfast, half with dinner). Having Gilbert's Syndrome, my UGT1A1 enzyme activity is lower than a typical person, hence I have more unconjugated bilirubin in my blood than most people, which leads to mild jaundice. This also leads to fatigue, although I haven't yet found a study explaining what *exactly* the bilirubin is doing to cause the fatigue. The quercetin/bromelain supplements I took lowered my bilirubin and hence lowered my fatigue. After I stopped taking the quercetin/bromelain (but continued to take the resveratrol and upped the dose to 600mg daily in two equal doses), some aches and pains I had came back in about 2-3 weeks (not sure what these are caused by in the first place, but they went away when I started the supplementation this summer) and the bilirubin and fatigue slowly returned to "normal" (meaning typical for me before I began supplementation) over the next 5-6 weeks. I think it plateaued last week, which was about the 8th week since I stopped taking quercetin/bromelain.

I believe quercetin induced UGT1A1, hence I have more enzymes to process bilirubin. If quercetin's SIRT1 inhibitory effect is what cancelled resveratrol's benefit for your arthritis, and if I truly did get mitochondrial biogenesis, then we are experiencing different things. Maybe the stuff we are taking or the mixture of stuff is responsible. You are taking 98% pure resveratrol, I'm taking 50%. My resveratrol comes with some other grape skin and seed extract in it. Both our quercetin had bromelain in it. I take a couple multi-vitamins a day and you probably take other stuff daily. Even the things we have in common might be different in some way -- different sources, etc.

Then, of course, there is the fact that even with the quercetin, my bilirubin was still higher than the typical person's. That means I may still have more unconjugated resveratrol floating around inside me, despite my lower dose, than someone who has a more active UGT1A1 and higher dose of resveratrol. I'd love to see the Boocock (?) study done on people with Gilbert's Syndrome.

I read some study (that I can't find now) where they found that some sort of RNA value could be used in place of muscle biopsy to know if someone had increased mitochondria. Any chance this is a blood test that can be sent away for? That would make trial and error a lot easier.

David

[SearchHorizon]

Another side effect of 99% resveratrol from Vital Prime.

I am sore from working out. Usually, because I am always working out, I am never sore from a workout.

Also, the joint pain has spread to my knees.

I am stopping resveratrol administration.

----------------------------------------

Basically, resveratrol is having INFLAMMATORY effect on my body. It is causing increased joint pains, increased muscle aches, etc. This is actually consistent with its effect on testosterone levels, etc.

I am beginning to wonder if resveratrol exerts its magic by its pro-inflmmatory effect. Generally, our body has a tendency to over-compensate for the effect of any agents that takes the body away from its homeostasis. Perhaps, when we take resveratrol, its pro-inflammtory effects are causing our body to over-compensate.

This means, as Bill Sardis said, it may be important to take low dose.

Edited by SearchHorizon, 27 September 2008 - 12:01 PM.

[maxwatt]

Another side effect of 99% resveratrol from Vital Prime.

I am sore from working out. Usually, because I am always working out, I am never sore from a workout.

Also, the joint pain has spread to my knees.

I am stopping resveratrol administration.

----------------------------------------

Basically, resveratrol is having INFLAMMATORY effect on my body. It is causing increased joint pains, increased muscle aches, etc. This is actually consistent with its effect on testosterone levels, etc.

I am beginning to wonder if resveratrol exerts its magic by its pro-inflmmatory effect. Generally, our body has a tendency to over-compensate for the effect of any agents that takes the body away from its homeostasis. Perhaps, when we take resveratrol, its pro-inflammtory effects are causing our body to over-compensate.

This means, as Bill Sardis said, it may be important to take low dose.

I showed the SEM images of vital prime powder that Hedgehog made, and also test results on their powder made at Alkemists Pharmaceuticals, to a manufacturer of resveratrol. He said it looked like old product that had been improperly stored, and which had deteriorated. Other suppliers of 98 and 99% res. have shown better test results, and they perform rigorous quality control.

Perhaps the lab test was an anomaly, but I think ill effects after using that brand cannot be generalized. Nor would joint pain from a chemical toxicity necesarily diminish immediately on cessation of administration.

I am sorry about your problems, and hope they resolve soon.

Edited by maxwatt, 27 September 2008 - 06:36 PM.

[steelheader]

Another side effect of 99% resveratrol from Vital Prime.

I am sore from working out. Usually, because I am always working out, I am never sore from a workout.

Also, the joint pain has spread to my knees.

I am stopping resveratrol administration.

----------------------------------------

Basically, resveratrol is having INFLAMMATORY effect on my body. It is causing increased joint pains, increased muscle aches, etc. This is actually consistent with its effect on testosterone levels, etc.

I am beginning to wonder if resveratrol exerts its magic by its pro-inflmmatory effect. Generally, our body has a tendency to over-compensate for the effect of any agents that takes the body away from its homeostasis. Perhaps, when we take resveratrol, its pro-inflammtory effects are causing our body to over-compensate.

This means, as Bill Sardis said, it may be important to take low dose.

I have a contrary effect from 2 grams per day of 99% RevGenetics powder. No matter how much I work out I can't get any soreness, even from as many as 8 sets of a weight machine exercise, maxing out on the last several sets.

[maxwatt]

Another side effect of 99% resveratrol from Vital Prime.

I am sore from working out. Usually, because I am always working out, I am never sore from a workout.

Also, the joint pain has spread to my knees.

I am stopping resveratrol administration.

----------------------------------------

Basically, resveratrol is having INFLAMMATORY effect on my body. It is causing increased joint pains, increased muscle aches, etc. This is actually consistent with its effect on testosterone levels, etc.

I am beginning to wonder if resveratrol exerts its magic by its pro-inflmmatory effect. Generally, our body has a tendency to over-compensate for the effect of any agents that takes the body away from its homeostasis. Perhaps, when we take resveratrol, its pro-inflammtory effects are causing our body to over-compensate.

This means, as Bill Sardis said, it may be important to take low dose.

I have a contrary effect from 2 grams per day of 99% RevGenetics powder. No matter how much I work out I can't get any soreness, even from as many as 8 sets of a weight machine exercise, maxing out on the last several sets.

I know what you mean-- with a good 98% resveratrol, I don't get sore from working out, still make gains in strength. When I take quercetin at over 200 mg, or luteolin at >= 50 mg, then I get tendon soreness of the sort Searchorizon describes.

[SearchHorizon]

I have a contrary effect from 2 grams per day of 99% RevGenetics powder. No matter how much I work out I can't get any soreness, even from as many as 8 sets of a weight machine exercise, maxing out on the last several sets.

With regard to joint pains and/or muscle soreness, I don't understand why different people are getting different effects.

Is it "individual thing"?

Or is it that some vendor's resveratrol includes undesirable impurities? I doubt that Vital Prime's product is any less pure than RevGenetics. (Although I have not yet tried RevGenetic's product for extended period of time (may be 2 days in a row at the most).

This is all difficult to fathom ...

Edited by SearchHorizon, 28 September 2008 - 01:08 AM.

[niner]

I have a contrary effect from 2 grams per day of 99% RevGenetics powder. No matter how much I work out I can't get any soreness, even from as many as 8 sets of a weight machine exercise, maxing out on the last several sets.

With regard to joint pains and/or muscle soreness, I don't understand why different people are getting different effects.

Is it "individual thing"?

Or is it that some vendor's resveratrol includes undesirable impurities? I doubt that Vital Prime's product is any less pure than RevGenetics. (Although I have not yet tried RevGenetic's product for extended period of time (may be 2 days in a row at the most).

This is all difficult to fathom ...

It can certainly be an individual thing. We have innumerable individual differences in drug absorption, metabolism, you name it. I don't know which batch you may have drawn from, but one of Vital Prime's batches that Hedgehog looked at was distinctly discolored. Pure resveratrol is a white powder, or clear with a slight yellow color in ethanolic solution.

[hmm]

Another side effect of 99% resveratrol from Vital Prime.

I am sore from working out. Usually, because I am always working out, I am never sore from a workout.

Also, the joint pain has spread to my knees.

I am stopping resveratrol administration.

----------------------------------------

Basically, resveratrol is having INFLAMMATORY effect on my body. It is causing increased joint pains, increased muscle aches, etc. This is actually consistent with its effect on testosterone levels, etc.

I am beginning to wonder if resveratrol exerts its magic by its pro-inflmmatory effect. Generally, our body has a tendency to over-compensate for the effect of any agents that takes the body away from its homeostasis. Perhaps, when we take resveratrol, its pro-inflammtory effects are causing our body to over-compensate.

This means, as Bill Sardis said, it may be important to take low dose.

I showed the SEM images of vital prime powder that Hedgehog made, and also test results on their powder made at Alkemists Pharmaceuticals, to a manufacturer of resveratrol. He said it looked like old product that had been improperly stored, and which had deteriorated. Other suppliers of 98 and 99% res. have shown better test results, and they perform rigorous quality control.

Perhaps the lab test was an anomaly, but I think ill effects after using that brand cannot be generalized. Nor would joint pain from a chemical toxicity necesarily diminish immediately on cessation of administration.

I am sorry about your problems, and hope they resolve soon.

I also have bad feelings about Vital Prime, which I have been using for the last 6 months. I am really torn between finishing out the batch I have or just dumping it and moving on to Revgenetics or something else that seems more reliably tested.

But to argue that the VP is causing the same bad symptoms as a 50% pure product seems a slippery slope to me, especially in light of the rsv manufacturer's opinion that this was an old and deteriorated product. It doesn't seem logical to me that oldness and deterioration in the VP product would cause the same exact kinds of bad side effects as straight-out (presumably fresh) impurities in the 50% products...

[maxwatt]

Another side effect of 99% resveratrol from Vital Prime.

I am sore from working out. Usually, because I am always working out, I am never sore from a workout.

Also, the joint pain has spread to my knees.

I am stopping resveratrol administration.

----------------------------------------

Basically, resveratrol is having INFLAMMATORY effect on my body. It is causing increased joint pains, increased muscle aches, etc. This is actually consistent with its effect on testosterone levels, etc.

I am beginning to wonder if resveratrol exerts its magic by its pro-inflmmatory effect. Generally, our body has a tendency to over-compensate for the effect of any agents that takes the body away from its homeostasis. Perhaps, when we take resveratrol, its pro-inflammtory effects are causing our body to over-compensate.

This means, as Bill Sardis said, it may be important to take low dose.

I showed the SEM images of vital prime powder that Hedgehog made, and also test results on their powder made at Alkemists Pharmaceuticals, to a manufacturer of resveratrol. He said it looked like old product that had been improperly stored, and which had deteriorated. Other suppliers of 98 and 99% res. have shown better test results, and they perform rigorous quality control.

Perhaps the lab test was an anomaly, but I think ill effects after using that brand cannot be generalized. Nor would joint pain from a chemical toxicity necesarily diminish immediately on cessation of administration.

I am sorry about your problems, and hope they resolve soon.

I also have bad feelings about Vital Prime, which I have been using for the last 6 months. I am really torn between finishing out the batch I have or just dumping it and moving on to Revgenetics or something else that seems more reliably tested.

But to argue that the VP is causing the same bad symptoms as a 50% pure product seems a slippery slope to me, especially in light of the rsv manufacturer's opinion that this was an old and deteriorated product. It doesn't seem logical to me that oldness and deterioration in the VP product would cause the same exact kinds of bad side effects as straight-out (presumably fresh) impurities in the 50% products...

It is possible that break-down products of resveratrol would be some of the same impurities found in 50% extracts.

[drtom]

Looks like I have joined the list of those experiencing painful/swollen joints or an arthritic-like condition.
I had been taking a 50% RES capsule for about 15 months with no ill effects, but in the last week or so my right elbow has become very sore and slightly swollen. There has been no trauma to cause it. No other joints affected.
I have been able to continue my gym sessions (3 times per week) but I think I will discontinue RES use for now.

Cheers,

Drtom

[ultraviolet]

I have mild Peyronie's disease that I've been trying to treat via supplements. I concluded that resveratrol (99%) seems to antagonize the condition after upping my normal 1/2 to 3/4 gram dose to a 5 gram dosage two days in a row as a test. I'm not claiming that resveratrol caused my peyronie's, but that it seems to make it worse -- more pain/inflammation.

One potentially interesting item is that some supplement choices intended to help tendonitis seem to come up for Peyronie's treatment too, like Vitamin E, copper, l-arginine. I wonder if there is any connection there.

UV

[davidd]

I have mild Peyronie's disease that I've been trying to treat via supplements. I concluded that resveratrol (99%) seems to antagonize the condition after upping my normal 1/2 to 3/4 gram dose to a 5 gram dosage two days in a row as a test. I'm not claiming that resveratrol caused my peyronie's, but that it seems to make it worse -- more pain/inflammation.

One potentially interesting item is that some supplement choices intended to help tendonitis seem to come up for Peyronie's treatment too, like Vitamin E, copper, l-arginine. I wonder if there is any connection there.

UV

When I saw "inflammation", I wondered if Quercetin might help. I did a google search and found the following.

http://peyronies-dis...tquercetin.html

Maybe some quercetin/bromelain would help? If you do try this, and if it works, I'd then be curious whether increasing your resveratrol dose negates the effects.

I took 1500mg of Quercetin (had bromelain in it too) daily, in two equal doses, for 10 weeks and noticed significant ache/pain reduction in feet, knees and other joints. Not that the aches were debilitating, but I could feel them just the same and would have to walk slow when first getting up until the foot pain decreased (possible Plantar Fasciitis). As I've mentioned before on here, after stopping the quercetin/bromelain (but still taking the resveratrol), the aches/pains came back over a period of 8 weeks. I believe the aches/pains disappeared about 2 weeks after I originally started taking the supplements (resveratrol, quercetin/bromelain).

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that maxwatt has experienced reduction in arthritic toe pain with resveratrol, but that effect is cancelled when quercetin is taken.

I also wonder if it might be possible that resveratrol is giving you more pain, because it is increasing rigidity, as some have reported. In other words, maybe the pain is an indirect effect rather than by making the PD itself worse?

David

[ultraviolet]

When I saw "inflammation", I wondered if Quercetin might help. I did a google search and found the following.

http://peyronies-dis...tquercetin.html

Thanks for the suggestion. I can certainly give it a try. If it works I might try dosing resveratrol and quercetin at different times, provided the resveratrol doesn't overcome the quercetin. The boswellia thread looks interesting too.

UV

[geo12the]

After being on resveratrol for a while, I do believe that muscle and tendon issues are problems with long term high dose resveratrol use. My partner and I have been taking 1 gram of revgenetics 99% pills a day for over a year now. The muscle effects didn't crop up until after about a year. These include muscle tightness and a feeling that muscles are being overly stretched when lifting weights. While it might be a coincidence, my partner has recently developed medial epicondylitis, a swelling of muscles in the elbow. Earlier this summer he had shoulder bursitis. I have experienced very loud and unusual joint popping sounds I have read someone describe here. While these effects could be a coincidence, I have dropped our dose to 500 mg and I think I have noticed a difference (less popping sounds and muscle tightness) but this could be placebo effect. I wonder if Sirtris compiled data in their study in India about the long term side effects of continuous resveratrol supplementation.

[missminni]

After being on resveratrol for a while, I do believe that muscle and tendon issues are problems with long term high dose resveratrol use. My partner and I have been taking 1 gram of revgenetics 99% pills a day for over a year now. The muscle effects didn't crop up until after about a year. These include muscle tightness and a feeling that muscles are being overly stretched when lifting weights. While it might be a coincidence, my partner has recently developed medial epicondylitis, a swelling of muscles in the elbow. Earlier this summer he had shoulder bursitis. I have experienced very loud and unusual joint popping sounds I have read someone describe here. While these effects could be a coincidence, I have dropped our dose to 500 mg and I think I have noticed a difference (less popping sounds and muscle tightness) but this could be placebo effect. I wonder if Sirtris compiled data in their study in India about the long term side effects of continuous resveratrol supplementation.

Not to be contrary, but I've been taking about a gram and half a day for almost a year too (actually in the beginning I took a lot more) and I haven't noticed any muscle or tendon problems at all. In fact I used to have issues with me knees and elbows getting swollen and clicking before I took it. I no longer have that issue. Having said that, I have developed eczema...which at first I blamed on resveratrol..but realize now it had nothing to do with it. There were so many contributing factors, it's difficult to isolate one thing as the cause.
I stopped Res for awhile and my condition actually worsened. I'm back on it now. You mentioned you are weight training. Maybe you need to use lighter weights. They are now finding that heavy weights are damaging to joints and suggest using light weights instead. I know guys who have been lifting heavy weights for years, and suddenly they need hip replacements and knee replacements in their 40's.

[tintinet]

I've taken doses of resveratrol ranging from 3 to 7 grams/day for about 2 years. No issues. I lift weights, practice martial arts, yoga, aerobics, skiing- nordic and alpine, snowboard, tennis, etc. No tendonitis, no soreness, no popping, nada.

[neuromancer]

I have tried 2 brands, both resulting in increased joint pains.

(1) Vital Prime (99% pure)
(2) 50% from BAC

It is unmistakable. The pain was worse with the Vital Prime.
I am going to try RevGenetics.

Sorry if you've answered this question before, but how old are you?
and what kind of exercise do you do?

I am just about to turn 45. I have been weight training for the past 20 years.

Currently, I weight train 4 days out of a week and perform cardio-vascular exercises 2 days out of the week.

Because of the weight training (constant stress on my joints), I am sensitive to pains and inflammation on my elbows, knees, etc.

I am careful about keeping track of food I eat, exercise I perform, etc., and I have it down to science in pinning down what food/supplement causes what response in my body.

BTW, I have tried RevGenetics, and I have not noticed increased joint pains yet ...

--------------------

P.S. So far, I have noticed lots of diarrhea with both Vital Prime's (99%) and BAC's (50%) resveratrol. I have not had the same problem with RevGenetic's.

Might try cutting back on your weight training days.

There is a fine line between training and overtraining, but of course you know this. You must put enough stress on the body to stimulate growth without actually causing harm. Not knowing your routine or how much you know it is hard to offer any advice but, maybe something here will help. You already have a lot of experience tho.

Not sure if you run, but a few people have mentioned joint and cartilage concerns in this regard. The thing is that runners are known to have more joint issues, particularly knee issues. There is also no way to be certain whether Resveratrol is causing some issue, or preventing an existing issue from getting worse. It could also just be the fact that pain is part of the healing process, which could be accelerated by the Resveratrol.

The problem with modern exercise is that it's very easy to put too much strain and override your body's natural limiting factors. It's also easy to breed weaknesses in your physiology and actually cause more harm than good. For example, riding an exercise bike will help your cardio and to some extent your muscles. But it will not help your stabilizer muscles or do your bones and joints much good. So it's possible to have muscles that are too strong in one dimension. By doing this you could increase your risk of injury by, say, running, where you really need those stabilizer muscles. Your cardio, and strength in a single range of motion, will keep you going for too long to the point where those stabilizers are actually injured. Then your joints will be strained and twisted a little too much in the wrong ways. Over the long term this can be very harmful.

Coming back to limiting factors - for any cardio I would recommend practicing nose breathing. Mouth breathing forces an artificial flight-or-fight response. The adrenaline essentially forces you to max out your body's resources - long past any point of safety. Doing this every time you exercise can do a lot of harm, you are basically overtraining all the time. There is a difference between exercising vs. putting extreme stress on your system. Nose breathing will limit your workout in a natural way and help keep you from overtraining. If you've been mouth breathing, you'll also see vast improvements in your cardio by nose breathing. Suppose you can run a mile mouth breathing - straining your resources to the limit. Well, if you nose breathe, you'll have to bring yourself back up to that limit without overtraining. Once you get there, you'll find you can then mouth breathe too, if you really need to, and use that extra energy the way it's meant to be used - once in a great while for an extra boost.

I am sure you already know, but for anyone else reading, I would recommend using free weights and being very careful with posture, weight and ranges of motion - especially if the body is trained to nautilus, resistance or other machines. Those stabilizers and joints need to be carefully trained up. If you run I would recommend reading about nose breathing, the theory behind the Nike Free Runner shoe, and looking up Chi Running (all about posture) . Those things have helped me a lot in the past.

I guess this post wasn't so much about Resveratrol, so please excuse that, especially if it is redundant. A lot of people train in different ways, just hope something here would help.

~ neuromancer


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[kenj]

O/T:

Coming back to limiting factors - for any cardio I would recommend practicing nose breathing. Mouth breathing forces an artificial flight-or-fight response. The adrenaline essentially forces you to max out your body's resources - long past any point of safety. Doing this every time you exercise can do a lot of harm, you are basically overtraining all the time. There is a difference between exercising vs. putting extreme stress on your system. Nose breathing will limit your workout in a natural way and help keep you from overtraining. If you've been mouth breathing, you'll also see vast improvements in your cardio by nose breathing. Suppose you can run a mile mouth breathing - straining your resources to the limit. Well, if you nose breathe, you'll have to bring yourself back up to that limit without overtraining. Once you get there, you'll find you can then mouth breathe too, if you really need to, and use that extra energy the way it's meant to be used - once in a great while for an extra boost.

That's solid advice, right there. When I ran in my teens I'd get the side stitch, and this was relieved with breathing through my nose. Plus, it does feel like you're saving energy. Now I always start my runs with at least 15 mins nose breathing, before accelerating with mouth breathing.

[Dmitri]

I have tried 2 brands, both resulting in increased joint pains.

(1) Vital Prime (99% pure)
(2) 50% from BAC

It is unmistakable. The pain was worse with the Vital Prime.
I am going to try RevGenetics.

Sorry if you've answered this question before, but how old are you?
and what kind of exercise do you do?

I am just about to turn 45. I have been weight training for the past 20 years.

Currently, I weight train 4 days out of a week and perform cardio-vascular exercises 2 days out of the week.

Because of the weight training (constant stress on my joints), I am sensitive to pains and inflammation on my elbows, knees, etc.

I am careful about keeping track of food I eat, exercise I perform, etc., and I have it down to science in pinning down what food/supplement causes what response in my body.

BTW, I have tried RevGenetics, and I have not noticed increased joint pains yet ...

--------------------

P.S. So far, I have noticed lots of diarrhea with both Vital Prime's (99%) and BAC's (50%) resveratrol. I have not had the same problem with RevGenetic's.

According to my health text, cardio should be done at least 3 days a week in order to have an effect; two days is not going to do it.

[Dmitri]

Another side effect of 99% resveratrol from Vital Prime.

I am sore from working out. Usually, because I am always working out, I am never sore from a workout.

Also, the joint pain has spread to my knees.

I am stopping resveratrol administration.

----------------------------------------

Basically, resveratrol is having INFLAMMATORY effect on my body. It is causing increased joint pains, increased muscle aches, etc. This is actually consistent with its effect on testosterone levels, etc.

I am beginning to wonder if resveratrol exerts its magic by its pro-inflmmatory effect. Generally, our body has a tendency to over-compensate for the effect of any agents that takes the body away from its homeostasis. Perhaps, when we take resveratrol, its pro-inflammtory effects are causing our body to over-compensate.

This means, as Bill Sardis said, it may be important to take low dose.

Do you take resveratrol with other antioxidants? I read online that taking too many antioxidants at the same time can cause inflammation and even joint pain. I‘m not sure how reliable the site I read the info from is, so perhaps a more knowledgeable member on the subject can confirm or dismiss the claim?

Also someone posted a thread not to long ago informing us of a study that showed taking antioxidants shortly after exercise produced negative effects. So it's likely better to take antioxidant supplements several hours before or after you exercise.

[zorba990]

After being on resveratrol for a while, I do believe that muscle and tendon issues are problems with long term high dose resveratrol use. My partner and I have been taking 1 gram of revgenetics 99% pills a day for over a year now. The muscle effects didn't crop up until after about a year. These include muscle tightness and a feeling that muscles are being overly stretched when lifting weights. While it might be a coincidence, my partner has recently developed medial epicondylitis, a swelling of muscles in the elbow. Earlier this summer he had shoulder bursitis. I have experienced very loud and unusual joint popping sounds I have read someone describe here. While these effects could be a coincidence, I have dropped our dose to 500 mg and I think I have noticed a difference (less popping sounds and muscle tightness) but this could be placebo effect. I wonder if Sirtris compiled data in their study in India about the long term side effects of continuous resveratrol supplementation.

Tendon repair requires (among other things) plenty of Vitamin C, sulfur, lysine, proline, copper, zinc, boron, silica, and most certainly manganese.
Perhaps one or more of these are co-factors for T-Res useage and are simply used up more rapidly.

Weight trainers often take extra zinc which by itself can cause copper and manganese deficiencies.
IMHO Manganese deficiency plus high intensity weight training will most certainly wreck your tendons.

Here's an interesting article on Llama's and tendon weakness:
http://llamadocherbs.com/id15.htm

[hmm]

After being on resveratrol for a while, I do believe that muscle and tendon issues are problems with long term high dose resveratrol use. My partner and I have been taking 1 gram of revgenetics 99% pills a day for over a year now. The muscle effects didn't crop up until after about a year. These include muscle tightness and a feeling that muscles are being overly stretched when lifting weights. While it might be a coincidence, my partner has recently developed medial epicondylitis, a swelling of muscles in the elbow. Earlier this summer he had shoulder bursitis. I have experienced very loud and unusual joint popping sounds I have read someone describe here. While these effects could be a coincidence, I have dropped our dose to 500 mg and I think I have noticed a difference (less popping sounds and muscle tightness) but this could be placebo effect. I wonder if Sirtris compiled data in their study in India about the long term side effects of continuous resveratrol supplementation.

Tendon repair requires (among other things) plenty of Vitamin C, sulfur, lysine, proline, copper, zinc, boron, silica, and most certainly manganese.
Perhaps one or more of these are co-factors for T-Res useage and are simply used up more rapidly.

Weight trainers often take extra zinc which by itself can cause copper and manganese deficiencies.
IMHO Manganese deficiency plus high intensity weight training will most certainly wreck your tendons.

Here's an interesting article on Llama's and tendon weakness:
http://llamadocherbs.com/id15.htm

It would provide some nice answers if some of these problems could be attributed to lysine deficiencies. People who are low on lysine are vulnerable to an attack of shingles if they have had chicken pox. People with herpes are more vulnerable to outbreaks when lysine gets low. I have no idea how much of a factor lysine is, however, as far as tendon problems are concerned. I have read that people who are athletic require more lysine, and I wonder if resveratrol and its effect of making bodies more "athletic" could also cause bodies to chew up extra amounts of lysine...